Official BBR Tier List v5

[TheReflexWonder]

Man, you reeeeeeally hate

I've just never had a problem with him. He is so limited; the only reason he isn't in low tier is because he can keep himself rather safe from most characters due to Up-B, D-Air, D-Tilt, and N-Air (or because everyone is bad and runs into his other moves). Those moves are pretty much all he has that he can rely on in a competitive sense.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You forgot bair and the fact that bucket can somewhat limit camping on a couple characters plus can bucket cancel so he lives forever.

 

[Exceladon City]

You forgot bair and the fact that bucket can somewhat limit camping on a couple characters plus can bucket cancel so he lives forever.

SDI says hi. Oh and most people just bait bucket.

 

[Juushichi]

Yet people still lose to notable Game and Watches all the time.

... hm.

 

[Z'zgashi]

G&W doesn't have to bucket everything. G&W players dont just bucket every time they see a projectile >.>

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol The bucket is there to punish habitual projectile usage. If you laser too much, too predictably, falco; you will give me a powerful weapon!

 

[Purple]

You forgot bair and the fact that bucket can somewhat limit camping on a couple characters plus can bucket cancel so he lives forever.

He didn't forget B-air; B-air wasn't on the list for a reason.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You forgot bair and the fact that bucket can somewhat limit camping on a couple characters plus can bucket cancel so he lives forever.

SDI makes it so that it is either perfectly spaced and does damage comparable to Ivysaur B-Air without the range or knockback, or that it is punished every time. Its uses are few and far between; hardly reliable.

Also, while Bucket Braking is useful, it doesn\'t make him last much longer than he already would have, assuming he isn\'t getting knocked to the complete other side of the stage every time.

As an aside, Bucketing Flamethrower gives you one of the only weak Oil Panic options in the game.

Yet people still lose to notable Game and Watches all the time.

... hm.

I covered that, too--

(or because everyone is bad and runs into his other moves)

Basically, if you watch out for F-Air (pretty easy), do not get baited into D-Air (takes some restraint, but, again, pretty easy), and don\'t waltz into a Smash, Game and Watch simply cannot KO you. That said, if you do not get caught in N-Air, he can\'t rack up damage, either.

 

[Ussi]

G&W has 3rd hit nair > smash as a true combo i think...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

G&W has 3rd hit nair > smash as a true combo i think...

SDI probably prevents that. Also, the only way that works is if Game and Watch is canceling the N-Air on the ground. That is not a safe approach. :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

But that implies that you are going to be SDIing perfectly every time. I'd be willing to bet that you would mess up at least once. The problem with that is the same reason sonic is so underated. In theory, you can predict or get out of everything he does, when in actuallity, we are human and we are going to misread and make mistakes every once in a while.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But that implies that you are going to be SDIing perfectly every time.

You do not have to SDI perfectly; just see where he starts it and go either backward or forward (and up, if you like), whichever would take the least amount of time. The amount of hitstun on each hit is ludicrous; it is incredibly easy to deal with every time.

 

[Z'zgashi]

What if you only take the last hit and don't get the SDI there? Death. And that's just one small mistake. I'm not saying G&W is godly or anything, but you need to think about how deadly G&W can be off just a single mistake or good read.

He also has 9 as a great punish now that we know it's not truly random. Give me one other move that punishes a mistake better than 9.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But that implies that you are going to be SDIing perfectly every time. I'd be willing to bet that you would mess up at least once. The problem with that is the same reason sonic is so underated. In theory, you can predict or get out of everything he does, when in actuallity, we are human and we are going to misread and make mistakes every once in a while.

No, the reason Sonic is udnerrated is that in terms of basic abilities, he is poor, but when you take into account his canceling abilities, then it opens up much more.
Sure you may be able to predict one possible action, but he retains his options constantly.
On the other hand, predicting the mind games of a Samus is much more player oriented.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What if you only take the last hit and don\'t get the SDI there? Death. And that\\\'s just one small mistake. I\'m not saying G&W is godly or anything, but you need to think about how deadly G&W can be off just a single mistake or good read.

Give me one other move that punishes a mistake better than 9.

The last hit of the B-Air does not come close to KOing, and if one is scared about getting juggled by N-Air, they just have to go to the ledge from the air. Plus, if the move has been going on that long, then you should be away from it, anyway.

Snake F-Tilt does. The range and speed make it much more practical. Actually, a lot of moves do, because you are not going to punish anyone with a 9-Hammer in high-level play unless you set it up prior, and his ability to do that is rather weak. A fully-charged Dedede F-Smash or almost-fully-charged Ike Eruption would be really good for punishing if they could actually hit. :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres a difference between 'theoretically, if you do _____, [character] will never work/be able to counter/win' and 'every time i do [easy thing] in game, [character] gets ***** because hes so limited'

 

[LuigiKing]

Dear god adumbrodeus I read your sig while browsing in class and lmao'd.

dat awkward status

 

[Loota]

He also has 9 as a great punish now that we know it's not truly random.[/COLOR]

Interesting :> Could you please tell more about it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Interesting :> Could you please tell more about it?

You can\'t get the last two numbers you got.

People say you can\'t get a 9 on your first hammer, but that is definitely untrue.

 

[MJG]

You can\'t get the last two numbers you got.

People say you can\'t get a 9 on your first hammer, but that is definitely untrue.

This.

tencharacters

 

[Ussi]

you go from 1/9 to 1/7 ... yea that's definably not still completely random -_-

 

[Flayl]

You can\'t get the last two numbers you got.

People say you can\'t get a 9 on your first hammer, but that is definitely untrue.

You can't get a 1 or 2 on your first hammer

 

[Lokinario]

Sorry for getting off-topic, but what's SDI?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

[COLOR=\"SeaGreen\"]Sorry for getting off-topic, but what\'s SDI?[/COLOR]

Smash Directional Influence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

And for people to remember, you cannot SDI the tornado. Hold the control stick in a direction while trying to get the fastest possible input after escape is the best way to get out. (Ex. hold up, mash jump). Or SDI the first hit of the tornado. I guess you can SDI some of it.

 

[Laem]

GW's nair actually has a drag-you-in hitbox
I'm not entirely sure which one it is, though, but im guessing third.

SDI is overrated anyway on these forums. (current metagame discussion, please?)
GW's bair is still reliable, and only really gets beaten OoS(and by that i mean reliably; something you'll see often) with MK/marth's upB.

Reflex, if you're grounded and getting hit by gw's bair(first hit, rising from sh and in place well spaced), how exactly do you punish?(you as in squirtle i guess)
I mean for real, hold stick up to get above bair while you're aerial and gw is falling is just one part of the OMG SDI > BAIR.

 

[da K.I.D.]

even while g watch is rising, you can still sdi up out of the bair, I do it with with sonic all the time, and then its a free up air. at least for me. and squirtle is smaller, and lighter, with better aerials so i bet it would be even better for him.

 

[DMG]

SDI probably prevents that. Also, the only way that works is if Game and Watch is canceling the N-Air on the ground. That is not a safe approach. :/

It prevents any true combos from smash attacks, but leaves you open to Upb if you do get hit by the draw in hitbox.

You do not have to SDI perfectly; just see where he starts it and go either backward or forward (and up, if you like), whichever would take the least amount of time. The amount of hitstun on each hit is ludicrous; it is incredibly easy to deal with every time.

Go up and towards G&W. That tends to let you maximize punishment unless your character has a god awful Dair/fastfall.

 

[Spelt]

I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation.



Also, current metagame is all about SDI. One might even go as far as saying that knowledge/usage of SDI increasing is metagame evolution. At least at a general scope, there's much more detailed shenanigans going on for each character, of course.

 

[DMG]

Well. Because it is. A lot of us earlier on called out the fact that SDI drastically changes the metagame. Jab combos, Multi Hit moves, Spikes, Kill moves near the edge, etc.

Not to name names, but Reflex was definitely one of those people who knew and tried to state how much SDI changes things.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Laem I guess it's fair to say that when it's obviously far beyond the reach of the community (*sigh* brawl community is so lazy, this never happens in the melee community), but when we're talking about stuff that's pretty much 5 minutes of work to get down and from there just knowing what to do, that rings very hollow.


Honestly, people just need to PASS THIS SH*T ON and be conscious of it in-game.

Dear god adumbrodeus I read your sig while browsing in class and lmao'd.

dat awkward status

Lol yea I basically did the same thing when I saw it.

Well. Because it is. A lot of us earlier on called out the fact that SDI drastically changes the metagame. Jab combos, Multi Hit moves, Spikes, Kill moves near the edge, etc.

Not to name names, but Reflex was definitely one of those people who knew and tried to state how much SDI changes things.

I seem to remember saying something to that effect, I KNOW you did.


But TBH people still aren't recognizing the implications, the metagame is moving to good single-hit moves and setups as opposed to strings because nothing is guaranteed anymore.



I know I had this conversation with somebody, errr it was either Veril, SL, or SMFP.

 

[Pikabunz]

Pikachu now has a cg on MK that goes up to 80.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Eff pika he's slightly lower high tier

 

[Spelt]

Didn't he already have a 0-death on MK?

 

[deepseadiva]

Pikachu now has a cg on MK that goes up to 80.

*barely glances up and throws over shoulder into pile*

 

[Pikabunz]

I wouldn't consider anything that uses QAL or jab lock a death combo. SDI beats that.

 

[DMG]

I wouldn't consider anything that uses QAL or jab lock a death combo. SDI beats that.

You are a good man for taking that into consideration

Unlike some fellows I know who throw SDI out the window, as if it's a rarity only Mr Doom can use.

 

[Spelt]

Oh, i thought it was an actual CG, not a lock.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Doesn't the CG only work on a few random slopes?

 

[Spelt]

IDK. I was under the impression there was a staling CG beginning from whatever percent that went to kill percents and ended with buffered SH uair > footstool > QA > thunder