Official BBR Tier List v5

[TheReflexWonder]

I definitely got grab release tipper daired offstage by a marth--

How does that happen to characters I don't use? (Except for Meta Knight, I guess...)

What character were you playing as?

 

[da K.I.D.]

i was helping him practice the meta matchup.

oh and I play Pokemon Trai-- er, I mean squirtle for a couple matches, but I didnt think to try to SDI it until I was playing mk.

 

[C.J.]

Pretty sure the only one of marth's moves that you can't SDI is tipper fsmash.

 

[dean.]

I've heard you can't SDI the feet part of his usmash either.

 

[Pikabunz]

IIRC, DB doesn't have any hitlag which makes it impossible to SDI since you can only SDI in hitlag. You can still DI it though. Also, the no hitlag explains why the timing for DB doesn't change whether you're hitting something or not.

 

[C.J.]

DB is 1 frame of hitlag according to Shaya somewhere on the marth boards. Except for DB4 down... that part of the move sucks so hard.

 

[Ripple]

or you could do this to stop DB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqyg2_AS-7o#t=1m6s

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I was under the impression that just holding the stick away from Marth forced him to DB4 Side because you'd escape both up and down.

 

[Browny]

LOLLLLL

broken DK. Do that vs like MK's dthrow or something

 

[Yikarur]

I have a really hard time SDIing out of DB (because I'm mostly on the ground when I get hit and I try to SDI up most of the time which doesn't work if you're grounded ... )

I told you so many times that you can SDI up if you get hit grounded, you just can't SDI down.

 

[Pikabunz]

DB is 1 frame of hitlag according to Shaya somewhere on the marth boards. Except for DB4 down... that part of the move sucks so hard.

1, none, same difference. You need at least 2 frames of hitlag to be able to SDI something anyways.

I've heard you can't SDI the feet part of his usmash either.

That's true. That part of Usmash has a 0 multiplier for hitlag.

 

[Yikarur]

no you need one. The Hitframe is not considered hitlag.

 

[Pikabunz]

Okay, I didn't know if it did or not. So DB has no hitlag right?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i was helping him practice the meta matchup.

oh and I play Pokemon Trai-- er, I mean squirtle for a couple matches, but I didnt think to try to SDI it until I was playing mk.

Squirtle can SDI the D-Air, too--If the grab isn't done in just the right place, you can SDI onto the stage...That being said, there's no avoiding the tipper F-Smash as Squirtle.

 

[DMG]

falco is, in fact, rubbish without a LGL

so if the BBR continues to be stupid with the ruleset(no LGL) <-> tierlist, he should in fact drop.
Unless they dropped that attitude already, which i kinda doubt.

and regarding SDI, i would much like some1 to link me a vid of socal consistently punishing TKD's fair on hit, which is just one of the examples of omg SDI > all

The list was made with both LGL on and LGL off. Primarily LGL on because it's the realistic tournament "standard" that's been in use forever now despite the BBR not advocating for one.

same

omg thats amazing

lzr da bess

"Gheb_01 Olimar has better potential to actually win a tourney than Marth imo."

marth has a way better matchup spread and is more consistent than olimar ._.

Marth definitely has a much better matchup spread than Olimar. Marth's top tier matchups sans MK and Diddy look either evenish or in his favor. Olimar would be lucky to just go evenish with top tier

SDI can tremendously help against his Dancing Blade.

Hmm... Did someone show you how many frames you HAVE to SDI dancing blade? Because Dancing Blade besides D4 have extremely small windows of opportunity to SDI. In fact, there are common JABS out there that let you SDI more/further than any hit of DB. That should give you an idea.

IIRC, DB doesn't have any hitlag which makes it impossible to SDI since you can only SDI in hitlag. You can still DI it though. Also, the no hitlag explains why the timing for DB doesn't change whether you're hitting something or not.

DB has 2 frames iirc, with only 1 available for SDI. Either that, or it just has 1 frame period and you are allowed to SDI on that frame (but I think Yikuar was right about the 1st frame not counting for SDI)

In either case, you basically have 1 frame available for input. SUCK ON THAT GHEB, EASY TO SDI MY BUTT MR "WOLF IS SO GOOD"

I was under the impression that just holding the stick away from Marth forced him to DB4 Side because you'd escape both up and down.

Not really. Basically, Dancing Blade at a very far range allows people to escape or almost escape with no DI/SDI because the 2/3rd hit iirc pushes you away from him noticeably. I wanna say it's the 3rd hit. But yeah, you could hold Down, Up, Towards him, etc it wouldn't matter at that range. Closer up IDR, but I know at max range people can basically escape without pressing a single button because of how the move works.

no you need one. The Hitframe is not considered hitlag.

Ok yeah that explains it.

 

[Benify]

Come on Ganon! Just rise up already

 

[ShadowLink84]

falco is, in fact, rubbish without a LGL

so if the BBR continues to be stupid with the ruleset(no LGL) <-> tierlist, he should in fact drop.
Unless they dropped that attitude already, which i kinda doubt.

Stupid?
No no my dear scrub, its called acknowledging the fact that surgically changing the game due to ONE character is completely, and utterly moronic.

Ask Akuma to stop using his fireballs please.


Seriously, an LGL is essentially telling someone "HEY STOP GRABBING THE LEDGE SO MUCH!"

Which, if anyone with a half decent memory recalls, someone did indeed make a topic about how someone kept grabbing the ledge.
The community ripped him about it.

Funny how things work out down the line.
At least the newbie was honest about it andidn't try to stick a number to make it seem LESS scrubby.

and regarding SDI, i would much like some1 to link me a vid of socal consistently punishing TKD's fair on hit, which is just one of the examples of omg SDI > all

*looks at melee SDI*

Hmmm....

 

[Coney]

Marth definitely has a much better matchup spread than Olimar. Marth's top tier matchups sans MK and Diddy look either evenish or in his favor. Olimar would be lucky to just go evenish with top tier

how come, then, olimars are significantly more prevalent in the tourney environment? marth does so well against a lot of the top tier but aren't bringing him the results many think he deserves.

is marth really that much more of a difficult character at a high level?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

is marth really that much more of a difficult character at a high level?

I think so, yeah.

 

[stingers]

marth is like...designed to be an overly safe character. he has no real strong options for keeping pressure on/huge rewards for doing so. and it's too difficult to play extremely safe for extended periods of time so you end up drained and lose terribly later on in the tournament

so just pick up mk

 

[Coney]

fair nuff

same question for wario--hasn't done anything in a while, prolly has better top tier MUs than olimar, why's he not around more?

same reason?

 

[theunabletable]

Stupid?
No no my dear scrub, its called acknowledging the fact that surgically changing the game due to ONE character is completely, and utterly moronic.

Regardless of if it's justified, it's ****ing pointless and stupid to make a tier list based on a ruleset that no one uses. There's NO reason to make a tier list that represents a metagame that NO ONE plays.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

same question for wario--hasn't done anything in a while, prolly has better top tier MUs than olimar, why's he not around more?

same reason?

I think so, yeah.

Don't worry, though--I've got it covered now.

 

[Mr.-0]

Meh. I'll be on for 30 more minutes. Why can I not have good, non-chokeing parents? Whats the topic guys?

 

[LuigiKing]

Mr. 0s posts make me want to bash my head against my desk. That is the topic.

 

[Mr.-0]

Thaaaaaaaaat's not the topic. But if it is, people, stop hating. I give you 4 day breaks after every 3 days of posting. Is that not enough?


Edit: Apparently, the topic is switching to another topic. Has Diddy Kong's position on the tier list been talked alot about already?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wario has a million good players. His worst match-up is MK, and beyond camping in the air, he has problems, like having high risk:high reward kill options (they either have high start up lag, or high end lag, usually).

Also, fart is awesome.

Wario is probably a little overrated.

 

[Mr.-0]

At one time, the Wario:MK matchup was the hottest thing in brawl because people thought it was 50:50. I don't think Wario has a disadvantaged matchup on MK, and I don't think he's underrated. Since I'm going to get a million STFU you don't know **** comments, I'm doing research and compyling some data for a big post.

 

[da K.I.D.]

mr. 0 might just be my favorite poster on smashboards right now.

and its not in a douchy way like, 'lolz, i like to have teh laughs at his magor stupidz'

I legitamate like him a lot as a poster.



that being said, wario.

wario is really good. but trying to avoid getting grab gayed is hard as balls and when it does happen, its super demoralizing. so hes very taxing mentally to play.

and you know the golden rule of brawl, Why make it hard on yourself when you can just play metaknight.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wario definitely has kill power, but in a Lucas sort of way, where the moves hit hard and do their job, but either leave you wide open or take forever to start.

Also, by a little overrated, I mean it's hard to see a character who hasn't placed at like anything in the US in like forever as "top tier" as he is currently placed. Wario just isn't relevant right now. That doesn't mean I think he's bad. Wario has amazing mix-up potential and is really hard to even hit for certain characters, lol.

And fart still rocks.

 

[Mr.-0]

Well, for starters, Wario trumps MK in the air if played smart. His air dodge beats all of MK's aerials, and Wario's air speed and this allows him to literally dance around MK if you space well. Wario has okay approach options, and because MK has no aerials, yet Wario has his wheels, MK has to approach. If he tornadoes, it's punish city for you. If he uair bairs, it's also easy to beat down his approach. If he fair approaches, you can airdodge and then bair/fair. You can also time a fair to beat his when his ends. Also, MK dies from a HALF fart at 65%. GET PWNED. Mk also has a hard time killing MK, as his aerial safety and good air moves makes him hard to gimp. And, wario's dtilt beats MK's. Wario's uair also kills MK before 100%, and it also beats the flide attack, and Wario's dair can also beat out shuttle loop (somehow) if timed correctly. Wario's bair also beats MK's uair and dair if you space and time it correctly. Also, MK has no grab craps against Wario. Wario also has several really good KO moves against MK, and he is also very good at racking up damage and zoning MK. Also, MK only really has evened out the MU because he can really rack up damage really fast. Don't challenge the credibility of these statements, btw. They were taken straight from the MK MU discussion, only reworded.

Also, Da KID, why do you like me as a poster? I'm sorta curious. My first informative post in a long while, and it's not even really mine.

Edit: I, however, do think the MU is 55:45 MK. But still, that's pretty close, so yeah. But that and Marth, are, imo, Wario's only bad MU's or evem MU's. So, also, Wario has really good MU's to keep his position or bring it up even.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

At one time, the Wario:MK matchup was the hottest thing in brawl because people thought it was 50:50. I don't think Wario has a disadvantaged matchup on MK, and I don't think he's underrated. Since I'm going to get a million STFU you don't know **** comments, I'm doing research and compyling some data for a big post.

Believe me, it's far from even...

About 40-60 if Meta Knight is actively trying to camp you. He's probably winning.

 

[Mr.-0]

Well, I don't think it's even. But it's close imo. But, well, then, you're Reflex. Any amount of copying and posting and rewording can't beat that. Can... you reply to another one of my comments? To make meel feel more special. Also, thanks for not saying STFU you don't know ****. It really makes me feel better.

 

[Exceladon City]

If only DMG could namesearch his way into here. He'd give you the ENTIRE MK:Wario MU.

 

[Mr.-0]

Eh. I have it on another tab, I could do it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, for starters, Wario trumps MK in the air if played smart. His air dodge beats all of MK's aerials, and Wario's air speed and this allows him to literally dance around MK if you space well. Wario has okay approach options, and because MK has no aerials, yet Wario has his wheels, MK has to approach. If he tornadoes, it's punish city for you. If he uair bairs, it's also easy to beat down his approach. If he fair approaches, you can airdodge and then bair/fair. You can also time a fair to beat his when his ends. Also, MK dies from a HALF fart at 65%. GET PWNED. Mk also has a hard time killing MK, as his aerial safety and good air moves makes him hard to gimp. And, wario's dtilt beats MK's. Wario's uair also kills MK before 100%, and it also beats the flide attack, and Wario's dair can also beat out shuttle loop (somehow) if timed correctly. Wario's bair also beats MK's uair and dair if you space and time it correctly. Also, MK has no grab craps against Wario. Wario also has several really good KO moves against MK, and he is also very good at racking up damage and zoning MK. Also, MK only really has evened out the MU because he can really rack up damage really fast. Don't challenge the credibility of these statements, btw. They were taken straight from the MK MU discussion, only reworded.

Also, Da KID, why do you like me as a poster? I'm sorta curious. My first informative post in a long while, and it's not even really mine.
hah. But that and Marth, are, imo, Wario's only bad MU's or evem MU's. So, also, Wario has really good MU's to keep his position or bring it up even.

Well, I don't think it's even. But it's close imo. But, well, then, you're Reflex. Any amount of copying and posting and rewording can't beat that.

It's been a while, but I'm actually training up my Wario again, and I played a whole lot of Meta Knights this weekend. This is how it feels to me--

You could hit in-between Meta Knight's aerials, but that requires Meta Knight to be high in the air, really. If Meta Knight chooses simply to shorthop his F-Air, walk/run around, and F-Tilt from time to time (F-Tilt is -the- reason Squirtle loses against him, easily), it allows Meta Knight to go into neutral stance whenever he wants, pretty much, which makes most approaches screw up (D-Air gets Shuttle Loop'd, for instance). If you choose to airdodge around him this way, more often than not, you're just gonna get grabbed or something.

Tires go through his sword, which is awesome, but Meta Knight can just stay away from your Z-Drops and throws if he's careful. Basically, he walls Wario really well, and D-Air camping works rather well against Wario, though I didn't previously mention that. Waft really doesn't kill until about 90% at first; you have to let it charge longer than where the good part starts in order to get KOs with it, and Meta Knight can just choose to grab the ledge at that point. His spacing tactics really are just better, but Wario has his fair share of small strings, and if you make good reads, you can beat those things. It's just that each of his options is stopped by one or two of your things, but since they beat so many more, it's a losing proposition overall. The problem is, to start them against a Meta Knight who knows what he's doing, you need to take a chance. Meta Knight finds it hard to KO at lower percentages compared to Wario, which is why the matchup isn't terrible.

I wish I could say more, and I'm sorry that this is small and vague, but you'd be better off asking someone who has been playing Wario in the current metagame for longer. I took a -long- break from Wario. Maybe the matchup is a little better now that the metagame has advanced.

 

[da K.I.D.]

DMG should be subscribed to this thread anyway.

also, I like mr. 0 because he comes in, has opinions and isnt afraid to put them out there even if they are wrong, (like a lot of his impressions on the mk wario matchup) or misguided. but at the same time, now that hes learned the proper way to go about doing things, he is willing to listen to people and at least make an attempt to educate himself before making posts, which is something not a lot do. which is why we still have high ranking people coming going around like, 'what? why is sonic placing so high, hes clearly an awful character', despite not knowing anything about him.

his opinions are sometimes (i.e. mostly) off base, but they make you think and he challenges the established norm in a good way regularly.

hes also not afraid to admit when hes wrong.


basically everything an intelligent poster on swf should be.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I admit when I'm wrong too, except when I'm trolling.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, some videos may have been saved from the last tournament I went to. When those get critiqued, I may have more to work with.

 

[Mr.-0]

Do you really think that of me Da Kid? Thank you

To reflex: I agree. There isn't really much I can say against it. I just wanna say though, if MK dair camps in a netural position, than you can aircamp as well, can't you? If it's even, no need to rush. You can wait for him to get a little off or something. Especially if there are platforms.

And, your post kinda agreed with the statement, it's not even, but close. You also think it's 55:45?