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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Browny
Smash Hater
Sonic actually IS high tier, it's just that the bbr hasn't figured that out yet 
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Looooooooool
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Clai
Smash Lord
This. I hate, HATE going up against people who keep it simple because Ganon is so terrible in the neutral position and the opponent can easily just turn it on and beat him down like it's nothing. There is so much mental pressure in knowing you can get ***** at any moment and the opponent doesn't even have to do anything for there to be an incredible amount of pressure.
I like how you alternate between he and she for your ZSS analysis, Orion.
Sonic - low tier
Sonic and Pictochat - high tier
/logic
Sonic and Pictochat - high tier
/logic
Ussi
Smash Legend
Pictochat is not auto win for Sonic....
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
no its not, but its defiinitely the Go-to cp for me and espy. And it serves us both quite well.
favorite stage in the game, easily
favorite stage in the game, easily
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
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- 11,841
Albert.
Smash Master
Orion you're mah bro and everything but if you ever play NickRiddle and don't at least 2 stock him, I'm gonna laugh at all the ZSS **** talk you've done lol
Thank you.
This thread seriously lacks a sense of humor.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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- May 13, 2006
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- Manhattan, New York
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- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
Problem is Ganon landing a hit when one is playing safe.
Meru.
I like spicy food
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- Dec 24, 2008
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- Merudi
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Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
Life
Smash Hero
Everyone focuses on the Sonics in those rankings...
but anyone else notice that gnes very nearly surpassed M2K?
0_o
but anyone else notice that gnes very nearly surpassed M2K?
0_o
ban diddy /troll
Coney
Smash Master
It's more likely than you think.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
With ddd probably not considering Ive never played the character in tournament, and I think he only wins by a little.
With MK I would be willing to mm your ZSS a stock down for a lot lol.
But true if I lose to NR it would be pretty funny
. Id probably hate myself but I know he's a smarter player than me atm.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yeah... Everyone noticed that...
And sonic is high tier, anyone who disagrees with him at least being high mid is ********
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Sonic sucks ***. I don't believe he is high tier or even high mid tier. I think he is low mid tier. But I use a character that counters Sonic and that isn't Mk. Maybe I just think he isn't as good as people hype em' to be because of my character.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Sonic has practically everything going for him, except killing, but then when you think about the fact that he's so fast that one mistake on your part can be death, one mispaced attack can be death, or one misread spindash can be death, you realize that sonic can just play uber gay and safe, and abuse even the slightest slip up.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
The parts I bolded made your arguement make NO sense
....
Steam
Smash Hero
I main sonic's worst matchup and think he should be around like... Kirby, Tink level
Phantomwake
Smash Journeyman
Can someone point me to the newest ruleset (3.1). My searches have not been fruitful.
John12346
Smash Master
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
who in your opinion espy is sonics worst mu?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
lol Trelacario of course
Poltergust
Smash Master
The same character that is Yoshi's worst match-up: Lucario.
Coney
Smash Master
makes sense, he's the king of the furries laying his domain on all the other furries
yoshi has fur
Steam
Smash Hero
furries/scaley's W/E.
if Luc is like that then why is Fox such a hard matchup?
But yay for destroying obscure mid tiers that place well
if Luc is like that then why is Fox such a hard matchup?
But yay for destroying obscure mid tiers that place well
Lucario.
When one character's entire design benefits absurdly well from another characters disadvantaged character quality, why else would you think any other character beats them any harder?
Lucario vs. Sonic plays out like this:
1st Stock, Lucario vs. Sonic is slightly in Lucario's favor. His range, attack speed, and early percent juggles give Sonic a difficult time getting in. The roll is always good as a bail-out since it's so fast.
The characters will more or less do decent damage to each other, but the Sonic is much more likely to be attaining damage because of the conflicts with the movesets of the two. As a result, Sonic will most likely be at higher percents than Lucario when they start reaching 100-120%-ish. Lucario won't be getting the full advantage of his aura yet, but it's still there.
Sonic can't KO (Lucario can survive a fresh fsmash on the edge of Final Destination at 140% with proper DI+SDI), so it's very unlikely for him to KO Lucario below 150% unless he catches the Lucario off guard. Lucario LOVES this.
If Sonic takes the first stock? Congrats, because now Lucario's coming back with an additional aura boost, AND he'll gain strength back from the damage you deal on him again.
If Lucario takes the first stock? Have fun fighting a Lucario whose most likely above 140%. You're most likely not going to win it at this point.
Sonic can't run either. Lucario's aura sphere and range on his ground moves and aerials suffocate Sonic when he eventually gets cornered (it's impractical to assume the Sonic will be able to run for an entire 8 minutes without the situation happening every once or so often).
Counterpicks? What counterpicks? Lucario's aura actually completely stops Sonic's sideB abuse on YI:B and PictoChat, and actually BEATS IT. YI:B is also a decent Lucario stage to begin with, and PictoChat is so large that the only way you can reliably KO Lucario is to hope the stage cooperates with you. PictoChat and Green Greens may be the only levels that give Sonic a chance against Lucario, and one is banned, while the other is always banned during the set.
Brinstar? Sonic is terrible on Brinstar. Zero ground control, lava makes the level much harder to navigate, and Lucario outright stomps Sonic in the air.
None of the general starters help (Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise), and everything else benefits Lucario moreso than Sonic (Delfino, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege, etc.).
It's bad enough that the character completely outdoes Sonic, but the stage list only deepens the hole the Sonic player has to dig himself out of in order to win that match up.
=====
The point?
Lucario has no business ever losing to Sonic, assuming both players for either character are more or less equal in skill and knowledge. His character design completely disregards any of the perks that come from Sonic's design, and actually benefits more than any other character from our lack of KO power.
The only other character who can benefit almost as much as Lucario from not being KO'd by Sonic is Wario, since more time alive = more time for Wafts.
No other character aside from maybe Falco (MAYBE) has anything near the level of Lucario in just how hard he can screw up Sonic.
When one character's entire design benefits absurdly well from another characters disadvantaged character quality, why else would you think any other character beats them any harder?
Lucario vs. Sonic plays out like this:
1st Stock, Lucario vs. Sonic is slightly in Lucario's favor. His range, attack speed, and early percent juggles give Sonic a difficult time getting in. The roll is always good as a bail-out since it's so fast.
The characters will more or less do decent damage to each other, but the Sonic is much more likely to be attaining damage because of the conflicts with the movesets of the two. As a result, Sonic will most likely be at higher percents than Lucario when they start reaching 100-120%-ish. Lucario won't be getting the full advantage of his aura yet, but it's still there.
Sonic can't KO (Lucario can survive a fresh fsmash on the edge of Final Destination at 140% with proper DI+SDI), so it's very unlikely for him to KO Lucario below 150% unless he catches the Lucario off guard. Lucario LOVES this.
If Sonic takes the first stock? Congrats, because now Lucario's coming back with an additional aura boost, AND he'll gain strength back from the damage you deal on him again.
If Lucario takes the first stock? Have fun fighting a Lucario whose most likely above 140%. You're most likely not going to win it at this point.
Sonic can't run either. Lucario's aura sphere and range on his ground moves and aerials suffocate Sonic when he eventually gets cornered (it's impractical to assume the Sonic will be able to run for an entire 8 minutes without the situation happening every once or so often).
Counterpicks? What counterpicks? Lucario's aura actually completely stops Sonic's sideB abuse on YI:B and PictoChat, and actually BEATS IT. YI:B is also a decent Lucario stage to begin with, and PictoChat is so large that the only way you can reliably KO Lucario is to hope the stage cooperates with you. PictoChat and Green Greens may be the only levels that give Sonic a chance against Lucario, and one is banned, while the other is always banned during the set.
Brinstar? Sonic is terrible on Brinstar. Zero ground control, lava makes the level much harder to navigate, and Lucario outright stomps Sonic in the air.
None of the general starters help (Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise), and everything else benefits Lucario moreso than Sonic (Delfino, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege, etc.).
It's bad enough that the character completely outdoes Sonic, but the stage list only deepens the hole the Sonic player has to dig himself out of in order to win that match up.
=====
The point?
Lucario has no business ever losing to Sonic, assuming both players for either character are more or less equal in skill and knowledge. His character design completely disregards any of the perks that come from Sonic's design, and actually benefits more than any other character from our lack of KO power.
The only other character who can benefit almost as much as Lucario from not being KO'd by Sonic is Wario, since more time alive = more time for Wafts.
No other character aside from maybe Falco (MAYBE) has anything near the level of Lucario in just how hard he can screw up Sonic.
Trela
Smash Lord
And I hope that the other Sonics can agree with this post, Espy.
10orelses
10orelses
They won't. At least not ALL of them.
It's silly.
Granted, that doesn't mean Sonic can't WIN against Lucario. I mean, it's happened once...maybe twice on a grand scheme since Brawl's release, so the chance is always there.
It's just, really, really, really difficult, because it literally banks on the Lucario screwing up enough in the match to bypass Sonic's KO problem.
It's silly.
Granted, that doesn't mean Sonic can't WIN against Lucario. I mean, it's happened once...maybe twice on a grand scheme since Brawl's release, so the chance is always there.
It's just, really, really, really difficult, because it literally banks on the Lucario screwing up enough in the match to bypass Sonic's KO problem.
Steam
Smash Hero
yeah Sonic gets the **** from lucario. I actualy stand a chance against sonics way better than me :D
but I think that 140% fresh Fsmash surviving at FD's ledge thing is an exageration...
but I think that 140% fresh Fsmash surviving at FD's ledge thing is an exageration...
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