Official BBR Tier List v5

[Matador]

Since I'm pretty sure I started the Pit in Japan line of conversation (this time) I'd just like to say that Masashi isn't the only high level Pit there but more importantly how Pit does in Japan does effect how his metagame should be viewed at large.

When Masashi/Earth/whoever plays Rain or another big name player on FD , the difference is two minutes. That doesn't change the general strategy of the match up. Yeah Japan has some rule differences, but the fundamentals seem more alike then different, and that plays through in their tournaments.

Also, how different do the rules play out when looking the USA alone? Aren't there regional stage difference, lgl limits, etc... How much of a difference is too divergent to consider, even partially?

I'm simply saying there's much more to it than that. Aside from the differences in stagelists, rulesets, and playin for money thing, there's also just the difference in tourney scenes.

Just like there's some good mains of a certain character on the west coast of the US and good mains of DIFFERENT characters on the east coast in the US, I would think that they have the same deal in Japan. The only difference is that our nationals and whatnot encompass everyone from all regions of the US. We RARELY ever have the Japanese compete here or go there...not enough to have an effect on their metagame.

I mean, it only makes sense from the way I see it.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I'm simply saying there's much more to it than that. Aside from the differences in stagelists, rulesets, and playin for money thing, there's also just the difference in tourney scenes.

Just like there's some good mains of a certain character on the west coast of the US and good mains of DIFFERENT characters on the east coast in the US, I would think that they have the same deal in Japan. The only difference is that our nationals and whatnot encompass everyone from all regions of the US. We RARELY ever have the Japanese compete here or go there...not enough to have an effect on their metagame.

I mean, it only makes sense from the way I see it.

Despite the differences, in what few interaction there have been between Japaneses and US players, their best VS. our best has shown that the skill levels are similar.

If you transplanted the best Pits their to here in the States, I have little doubt that would place in a way that not only reinforces Pit current position on the tier list but suggest he should be higher. The same could be said if say... X and Espy where brought to Japan. Their list would reflect Sonic higher as they would have Sonic players of the highest known potential.

I guess it really boils down to I think a tier list should be more based on a characters known potential then a characters known results. There is a subtle difference in that.

That's just how I see it. I can understand your point of view, just I think we put more weight on different things.

 

[Orion*]

I understand what you mean. There are players outside NA in the backroom that offer their help n whatnot.

That's not a problem. It's when arguments like "Well pit performs well in Japan...Just look at Masashi!" sprout up that I disagree. Masashi's tourney performance shouldn't affect Pit's standing on a tier list that doesn't reflect his metagame.

If this tier list DOES reflect Japanese metagame as well as NA, then why do they have a tier list?

You are free to create a North American Smash Website, Have your own NABBR and create a North American Tier List or something- Nobody is stopping you.

However this tier list is made with the opinion of a lot of players all of over the world. I don't really see either of us having the power to change that if we wanted to.

A tier list is essentially just a group of peoples opinions. Mine is different from this one, yours is probably different from that. A group of japanese players decided to make one. Cool. We can still analyze their metagame a bit and incorporate it.

edit: if we are doing a potential tier list with a LGL

pit needs will never get to B tier for me imo LOL

 

[SpliziT]

If Fox was put right under Pikachu then I'd be happy. He deserves the High tier cause he always puts up good results and I always hear people say Fox is a pain to play against.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Fox IS a pain to play against, but then you land one grab/ftilt/etc and hes gone.

 

[Matador]

You are free to create a North American Smash Website, Have your own NABBR and create a North American Tier List or something- Nobody is stopping you.

However this tier list is made with the opinion of a lot of players all of over the world. I don't really see either of us having the power to change that if we wanted to.

A tier list is essentially just a group of peoples opinions. Mine is different from this one, yours is probably different from that. A group of japanese players decided to make one. Cool. We can still analyze their metagame a bit and incorporate it.

edit: if we are doing a potential tier list with a LGL

pit needs will never get to B tier for me imo LOL

Yikes, lol.

Okay well, if you say so, lmao.

 

[SpliziT]

Fox IS a pain to play against, but then you land one grab/ftilt/etc and hes gone.

Big deal. Fox can usmash or dsmash depending on stage and character before you can do that .

 

[NickRiddle]

Big deal. Fox can usmash or dsmash depending on stage and character before you can do that .

You forgot the part where those moves don't kill quite as low as the CGs/locks kill Fox.
If you're going to make an argument about why a character should be better/worse, at least... you know...
Make an attempt at making a valid point.

 

[SpliziT]

You forgot the part where those moves don't kill quite as low as the CGs/locks kill Fox.
If you're going to make an argument about why a character should be better/worse, at least... you know...
Make an attempt at making a valid point.

Chill. Only someone that is bad with Fox will let a CG decide a match for them. Of course there are exceptions like Pika, IC's and maybe even Sheik if you don't know what your doing but that's not really a big deal cause those characters aren't that popular. I'm just stating my opinion, I don't take these forums serious cause I let my gameplay do the talking.

 

[Albert.]

lol okay ^^^^

 

[etecoon]

I don't take these forums serious cause I let my gameplay do the talking.

who are you

 

[SpliziT]

who are you

Does it matter?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Despite the differences, in what few interaction there have been between Japaneses and US players, their best VS. our best has shown that the skill levels are similar.

If you transplanted the best Pits their to here in the States, I have little doubt that would place in a way that not only reinforces Pit current position on the tier list but suggest he should be higher. The same could be said if say... X and Espy where brought to Japan. Their list would reflect Sonic higher as they would have Sonic players of the highest known potential.

but as of right now, sonic is still low/bottom tier in japan, despite that fact that when they came over here, i cant speak for all of them but I know speed beat brood in a set.

why didnt they go back home and raise sonic on their tier list? probably because america doesnt really affect their views on the characters that much, just like japan really shouldnt have that big of a bearing on our tier list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The difference is that they have a "japanese" Tierlist based on their own results. This is supposed to be the Tier list of smash *world* forum aka represent a world wide point of view.

Unless you wanna be childish and act like "oh noes they don't use our results now we won't use theirs! QQ"

 

[Raziek]

The difference is that they have a "japanese" Tierlist based on their own results. This is supposed to be the Tier list of smash *world* forum aka represent a world wide point of view.

Unless you wanna be childish and act like "oh noes they don't use our results now we won't use theirs! QQ"

*facepalm* At taking the name of the site as a literal interpretation of what the tier list should be, when we have clearly and directly stated that their meta-game is rather different and far removed from ours. On top of that, communication and discussion is less than convenient.

Is it really necessary to nitpick that semantic?

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Chill. Only someone that is bad with Fox will let a CG decide a match for them. Of course there are exceptions like Pika, IC's and maybe even Sheik if you don't know what your doing but that's not really a big deal cause those characters aren't that popular.[/B] I'm just stating my opinion, I don't take these forums serious cause I let my gameplay do the talking.

Just because Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and Shiek are not popular (According to you, and I doubt that.) doesn't mean you won't face one of them in a tournament or anywhere else. Even good Fox players can get caught in them. Or course not as easily as bad ones. Due keep in mind if you post stuff like that you're asking for trouble...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

*facepalm* At taking the name of the site as a literal interpretation of what the tier list should be, when we have clearly and directly stated that their meta-game is rather different and far removed from ours. On top of that, communication and discussion is less than convenient.

And it has just been proven, that their metagame isn't fundamentally different enough to make that argument pointless. They play the same game under largely same rules. The difference between their ruleset and the BBR one isn't any more different than MLG from AN.

And since when do we need to communicate with them in order to interpret their results and the outcome of their matches and sets?

Is it really necessary to nitpick that semantic?

You call it "nitpicking a semantic". But who's to say that the name of the site is to be taken literal or not? Last time I checked this site has its own sections for european, japanese and other communities. How is it natural to assume that these scenes are suddenly excluded from the tierlist when said communities even have representation in the BBR? If this is a US only tier list then it should be labeled as such because semantics or not - I would NOT know which scenes are taken into consideration for this list.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Chill. Only someone that is bad with Fox will let a CG decide a match for them. Of course there are exceptions like Pika, IC's and maybe even Sheik if you don't know what your doing but that's not really a big deal cause those characters aren't that popular.

A good Fox can avoid chaingrabs. A good opponent can land them.

The fact is that the chaingrabs arn't hard to pull off, its just a matter of setting them up. If you have players of equal skill, over the course of a set the chain grab will be a factor. I'd be surprised if it doesnt happen AT LEAST once if not more.

 

[ErikG]

When I want to get to this site, I type in smashboards.

Just because the name of the forum is Smash World Forum does not mean we have to include a metagame with different rules, stages, and players than the one that this site caters towards.

This is the BBR tier list that goes with the BBR ruleset. Japan does not use the BBR ruleset at all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

And it has just been proven, that their metagame isn't fundamentally different enough to make that argument pointless. They play the same game under largely same rules. The difference between their ruleset and the BBR one isn't any more different than MLG from AN.

And since when do we need to communicate with them in order to interpret their results and the outcome of their matches and sets?



You call it "nitpicking a semantic". But who's to say that the name of the site is to be taken literal or not? Last time I checked this site has its own sections for european, japanese and other communities. How is it natural to assume that these scenes are suddenly excluded from the tierlist when said communities even have representation in the BBR? If this is a US only tier list then it should be labeled as such because semantics or not - I would NOT know which scenes are taken into consideration for this list.

alright then,

over the entire WORLD scene, sonic has better results than pit does, taking the entire world into account, therefore I think sonic should be above pit in the tier list.

you saying pit should be higher is just as dumb as all those people who said PT should be higher because of reflex.

its one dude in one region doing really well. the impact that one person should have on the tier list, if were making this a worldwide thing, should be negligible. as a matter of fact, ike has more representation on a worldwide scale than pit does, ike should be over pit too.

 

[SpliziT]

Just because Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and Shiek are not popular (According to you, and I doubt that.) doesn't mean you won't face one of them in a tournament or anywhere else. Even good Fox players can get caught in them. Or course not as easily as bad ones. Due keep in mind if you post stuff like that you're asking for trouble...

Yeah I pretty much want the subject to be dropped now. I just stated where I think Fox should be on Tier list. And then someone came in and made a blunt statement about Fox that didn't even deserve a response so w/e.

 

[etecoon]

Does it matter?

yes, if you're going to say things like this

I don't take these forums serious cause I let my gameplay do the talking.

like if TKD or nakat or any reasonably good fox came in and stated that they thought their tournament results spoke for itself, that would be understandable. you seem to have literally no record. how you gonna say "fox can avoid that stuff, my gameplay speaks for itself" under those circumstances?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I haven't said a word about Sonic and Pit in ages. Don't put words in my mouth.

If Sonic actually was more successful world wide then I could see where the idea is coming from but I really doubt it's the case because there's about 2 regions where Sonic is doing extraordinary well, 2 other regions where he's doing OKish. And he's non-existent anywhere else. Maybe that holds true for Pit as well idk, all I know is that 3 Pits have placed top 20/150 [Masashi taking 7th] this weekend in Japan and that they have the most advanced metagame. If you were objective about it Pit and Sonic would probably get similar results overall.

 

[Spelt]

pikachu, ice climbers and sheik AREN'T popular.
but people really should learn to CP them just for fox/wolf/falco/etc.

this community is not gay enough with their counterpicks, sadly.

Spoiler

and i know someone is gonna come in here and yell at me because they think i'm saying sheik hard counters falco, so have at ye~

 

[Lenus Altair]

If Sonic actually was more successful world wide then I could see where the idea is coming from but I really doubt it's the case because there's about 2 regions where Sonic is doing extraordinary well, 2 other regions where he's doing OKish. And he's non-existent anywhere else. Maybe that holds true for Pit as well idk, all I know is that 3 Pits have placed top 20/150 [Masashi taking 7th] this weekend in Japan and that they have the most advanced metagame. If you were objective about it Pit and Sonic would probably get similar results overall.
:

Thank you for illustrating that there is more then 1 great Pit Main in Japan. Masashi ani't the only one. There is a reason they think he is top 5 in Japan (last I checked.)

For the record though where are you looking for these results? I'm interested in keeping better track of what goes over there myself.

 

[Albert.]

pikachu, ice climbers and sheik AREN'T popular.
but people really should learn to CP them just for fox/wolf/falco/etc.

this community is not gay enough with their counterpicks, sadly.


black text:

Spoiler

and i know someone is gonna come in here and yell at me because they think i'm saying sheik hard counters falco, so have at ye~

Spoiler

That'd be amazing though, wouldn't it?

The thing about Pika for Fox/Falco/Wolf is that everybody has a "Pocket MK" that usually beats "pocket Pika"

(Especially true if you're in f***ing e$am's region. )

 

[Exceladon City]

Chill. Only someone that is bad with Fox will let a CG decide a match for them. Of course there are exceptions like Pika, IC's and maybe even Sheik if you don't know what your doing but that's not really a big deal cause those characters aren't that popular. I'm just stating my opinion, I don't take these forums serious cause I let my gameplay do the talking.

And I take it that you're good enough to not get gayed by //?

The difference is that they have a "japanese" Tierlist based on their own results. This is supposed to be the Tier list of smash *world* forum aka represent a world wide point of view.

Unless you wanna be childish and act like "oh noes they don't use our results now we won't use theirs! QQ"

Hop off Japan's **** for 5 minutes plz.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hop off Japan's **** for 5 minutes plz.

Man that's a great answer. I really have no idea how to respond to this masterpiece.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Man that's a great answer. I really have no idea how to respond to this masterpiece.

I know....



But seriously, Oreo, why does Gheb overrate the importance of the japanese community? I'd like to see some reasoning rather then empty meatriding accusations.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I haven't said a word about Sonic and Pit in ages. Don't put words in my mouth.

If Sonic actually was more successful world wide then I could see where the idea is coming from but I really doubt it's the case because there's about 2 regions where Sonic is doing extraordinary well, 2 other regions where he's doing OKish. And he's non-existent anywhere else. Maybe that holds true for Pit as well idk, all I know is that 3 Pits have placed top 20/150 [Masashi taking 7th] this weekend in Japan and that they have the most advanced metagame. If you were objective about it Pit and Sonic would probably get similar results overall.

1.
mlg Dallas
2 sonics in top 6 out of 170 >>> 3 pits in top 20 out of 15. Especially if masashi didnt even place in the money.

The only real leg you had to stand on came from the idea that masashi wins basically everything in Japan, but if thats not even holding anymore than what can you even say?

2.

Japan and that they have the most advanced metagame.

you have absolutely zero basis whatsoever for this statement.

3. I find it hilariously ironic that ABD is defending gheb by calling other people out on 'empty accusations.'

 

[Spelt]

Don't forget that masashi plays MK, too.

 

[adumbrodeus]

3. I find it hilariously ironic that ABD is defending gheb by calling other people out on 'empty accusations.'

I called out Oreo, not the rest of you.


I will however say that Japan has proven itself competative in it's metagame by a number of it's players doing well in apex. Since our tier list is intended to be based on the overall power of the characters (as opposed to what character is best in our metagame), i wouldn't toss their results out of hand, it should in fact inform the tier list if the reasons that the characters are effective isn't directly based on a deficency in their metagame. By the same token, results based on a deficency in our metagame should be simularly ignored.


TL;DR: Gheb may overestimate Japan, but that doesn't mean that their results aren't useful.

 

[Lenus Altair]

1.
mlg Dallas
2 sonics in top 6 out of 170 >>> 3 pits in top 20 out of 150. Especially if masashi didnt even place in the money.

Gheb just mentioned the results from the past weekend. The point is pit players place consistently high in Japan. That's all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Especially if masashi didnt even place in the money.'

You're so funny.

 

[Luigi player]

You're so funny.

LOOL

Masashi placed really well the tourney had 150 entrants and from watching the vids it seemed like everyone is at a really high level. Japan is scary good. Too bad SRT got cancelled... (although it's not like anyone would've went there anyway except maybe M2K...)

 

[phi1ny3]

tbh I don't quite buy the "ice climbers inaccessibility" argument for Fox. Even Sopo is a huge threat for fox, the 0-80 dthrow solo CG -> dtilt off the edge is really, really nasty, and tbh aside from CPs, ICs could very easily be pocketable for this particular MU, seeing as how the only safe options Fox has against ICs are bair and laser camping (which is stoppable via standard IB/blizzard shenanigans). ICs may be rare, but I think the ability to use them in this particular MU is very doable compared to others where you have to actually be considerably smarter in desynch zoning/spacing to deal with better tools and have to actually learn alternating CGs lol.

Even TKD said ICs are probably worse for Fox than Pika is iirc.

 

[Albert.]

^^^^ Thanks for the tip. LEARNING ICs NAO

 

[phi1ny3]

pikachu, ice climbers and sheik AREN'T popular.
but people really should learn to CP them just for fox/wolf/falco/etc.

this community is not gay enough with their counterpicks, sadly.

Spoiler

and i know someone is gonna come in here and yell at me because they think i'm saying sheik hard counters falco, so have at ye~

She does counter Falco

Spoiler

offstage

The biggest problem is that falco's jab is soo good in the MU, and falco has almost as ridiculous a method for damage racking as ftilt lock right back, so it's a really funny momentum based MU lol.

 

[Chuee]

1.
mlg Dallas
2 sonics in top 6 out of 170 >>> 3 pits in top 20 out of 15. Especially if masashi didnt even place in the money.

lawl
Somebody forgetting that Japan doesn't have prize money?

Don't forget that masashi plays MK, too.

Yup, all his results are now invalid seeing as he used MK like once.

You're so funny.

:D

tbh I don't quite buy the "ice climbers inaccessibility" argument for Fox. Even Sopo is a huge threat for fox, the 0-80 dthrow solo CG -> dtilt off the edge is really, really nasty, and tbh aside from CPs, ICs could very easily be pocketable for this particular MU, seeing as how the only safe options Fox has against ICs are bair and laser camping (which is stoppable via standard IB/blizzard shenanigans). ICs may be rare, but I think the ability to use them in this particular MU is very doable compared to others where you have to actually be considerably smarter in desynch zoning/spacing to deal with better tools and have to actually learn alternating CGs lol.

Even TKD said ICs are probably worse for Fox than Pika is iirc.

TKD said recently that he thinks Pika's worse now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Kinda hard to use Japan's results in our data when we use prize money to calculate how much that spot in the tournament was worth compared to other tournaments and their placings. Go ahead and throw in the Japanese results in those topics if you want, they'll just be worth "0" every time and change nothing.