Official BBR Tier List v6

[Brawlman1000]

Alright Sonic getting on up there!
Snake defeated by Diddy.....I actually kinda saw that coming.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Wolf finally got where he should be, goddamn.
I knew how underrated he was, he's just too damn good.
He got the biggest jump, as expected.

 

[Timic83]

so apparently GNW is still ****? lol u dont know **** no offense

 

[Lord Viper]

Kirby... ;_; ★

I blame Kirby's nerfed Kirbycide for him being mid tier. >.> ★

 

[phi1ny3]

Just to let you know that I've been putting work to Dedede and found out that he can infinite Lucario on upward slopes. Which makes Dedede have good counter pick stages against Lucario and ppl found out about the whole down throw to up smash thing.

Almost no upward slopes that are angled enough to provide it on any respectable stagelist. Also, gl landing many grabs on good lucarios.

Also, even/advantaged (not even counter really, just advantaged) MUs w/ the lower bad end of high tier =/= get out of jail free when D3 still suffers booty MUs with the chars that matter (especially MK), and having nearly non-existent rep on a high level doesn't help.

That being said, Lucario's jump surprised me, I have mixed feelings but I guess he's good to stay in that area as long as his rep justifies that, I honestly think he's still not that great theoretically, I think people get throttled psychologically by scarycario at high percents and forget to play gay and basic.

 

[Reizilla]

What's more ****ed up is Zelda at 30th and Samus at last.

Someone was trolling pretty hard back there.

 

[Kuraudo]

Hmmm... BBR?

Needs more Sonic support. Yes it does. Should try to apply again.

 

[hammerkirby7]

Jiggs is triforce tier now?

So the triforce pieces are now courage, wisdom, power, and jiggernaut.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

Chudat is great no doubt, but when he was smashing people with Kirby, this was before the metagame really took off and people really didn't know how to handle/deal with some of Kirby's gimmicks like his grab stuff.

Kirby's MUs... got much worse over time. An example is there was a time when they listed Kirby:MK as 45:55 in MK's favor. You really think it's that even now?
Nope. Same with DD, hell I think people use to say it was in his advantage even. Lucario and ZSS MU also got worse for him. Kirby went from A to C and now he's at E. Makes perfect sense and in time he's going to drop more, Sonic should pass him up definitely.

Kirby's game never went anywhere. He started off good and very solid, but many other characters developed and became a threat to him... and well. Surpassed him.

Play Kirby against a good player who uses a tourny viable character in today's metagame. You'll understand why he's so low. Bad air speed, bad approaches, bad at killing, gets camped, gets shield grabbed if not spaced perfectly- that combined with his bad air speed hurts. Very predictable character. He's on the ground. What is going to do? Grab. In the air? B-air. F-smash is telegraphed and avoided at high levels unless used as a punish or you d-air'd into it unless it was sdi'd sp he can't kill as well as you would imagine. Brings me to this: SDI ****s Kirby over too. If your u-tilt and grab combos work- the player you are fighting is free and doesn't know SDI 101. Also did I mention MK and Wario pretty much outclass him?

Yeah. Why do you think people don't use him anymore?

Because they stopped wanting to be creative and just got the same BS tactics down and just tried to get better at mindgaming people into them. This is one of many persistent problems with the brawl metagame at this point. Majority of players aren't being innovative and are trying to get by on the same old same old whilst they john about the character not being good enough/others being broken. What people need to understand is that the boundaries produced by not being creative with your character are what's holding the character back. If you wanna get a char better, THINK UP NEW STUFF! That's what makes players great, the ability to take any character they so enjoy, and create new mindgames, new techniques, new ways to space and SDI to create different openings for oneself. The character will get better over time once players begin to figure them out and get more original and less mainstream. Just look at melee. I noticed you could easily tell players apart based on their playstyle/mindgames/movement on screen without even caring about their tags. You could tell when the Fox playing against the Peach was Jman/Cactuar/etc. just by how that character moved. They had their own style, their own groove, their own ideas to handle different things and to mess with their opponent. All this means is that these players are able to get past the boundaries of the character and are able to handle most any other players not by knowing their opponents characters and matchups, but by KNOWING THEIR OWN CHARACTER LIKE THE BACK OF THEIR HAND. If you want a character better, the only thing that'll make it happen is the players themselves have to get better, dum-dum!




FOR YOUR HEALTH!!!

tl;dr Wolf deserved it, Diddy deserved it, Kirby needs better players, G&W is mad fun anyway. Now go prove this tier list wrong.


EDIT: Longest post i've written so far on here, and i ain't even mad

 

[blindsniper]

I'd like to contribute. :D

Visual aids ftw

 

[Ishiey]

Eh, tier list turned out aight. Diddy and Wario are a bit higher than I had hoped for, but nbd. Yoshi only getting +1 is kinda surprising too. TL not being mid is... a bit odd, but whatever, one less annoying character in mid-tier tournaments

Wolf explanation will probably show up in the OP within the next 24 hours, so I won't bother with that here.

On Peach, I think she's a pretty good character but runs into a bit of a stamina/consistency issue in tournament. Her placement is pretty accurate imo, maybe a spot off at most.

Pit, idk. I've never been impressed by a Pit, from videos or from experience (and yeah, I've obviously watched Japanese Pits). Every other mid-tier character has, to at least some extent. Even Kirby, somehow. I want to believe that he's not too bad, but it's getting hard :/ either way, he's probably stuck in this tier for good, imo.

 

[z00ted]

blindsniper that was incredible

 

[blindsniper]

blindsniper that was incredible

Thank you!

 

[Nike.]

OMG that reminds me.

Anyone remember those pics some guy would make on the older tier lists? On the one that marth dropped to 7th, he drew a picture of top6 in a clubhouse and marth was falling down, trying to reach the rope x)

Whoever that was, he should make a new picture this time cuz those drawings were amazing.

 

[DMG]

That was Browny, and he will do something

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well I had to read all 16 pages on 40pp.

Let's keep it civil.

Also I'd be that random in the BBR,

 

[napZzz]

lol people are finally realizing snake blows. Give it a few more lists and he'll be around 2 spots down and marth should be going up

swag me the **** out

 

[Indigo Jeans]

sad that rob got ****ed over so badly, but w/e, still playing him

 

[Mota]

Boooo Toon Link didn't move at all and gets scraped into high tier, Toon Links need mid tier tourneys dangit XD

 

[Brisinger581]

Nothing, and there lies the problem

Well they should do something and not hide on Wifi. I'm probably 1 of the few US pit mains that actually attempts to make it to the tournaments. Most of the times something stupid happens and I can't make it, but at least I'm a pit main that tries and this tier list won't stop me from using him(But might stop me from using pika cause Idon't abuse high tier characters lol.)

 

[pkmntrainerRed]

Poor Kirby... why

 

[WindMajor]

and Kewwky ends up being legit as !@#$.

Kewkky's Kirby is pretty legit, just sayin'.

 

[Sky Pirate]

OMG that reminds me.

Anyone remember those pics some guy would make on the older tier lists? On the one that marth dropped to 7th, he drew a picture of top6 in a clubhouse and marth was falling down, trying to reach the rope x)

Whoever that was, he should make a new picture this time cuz those drawings were amazing.

Eheh!

Browny's Tier List 3.0 Picture
Browny's Tier List 4.0 Picture

Did he ever do one for 5? I don't remember seeing anything.

 

[AuraStUrm]

Did he ever do one for 5? I don't remember seeing anything.

Aaaaand here you go.

 

[Shaya]

Oh yeah guys. Random was just literally meant to signify the "Middle" point in the tier list.

Random isn't a character and shouldn't be legal in middle tier tournaments =)

Due to some people having issues with it I've taken it out, even though I feel it should be fine to have it in there.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol people are finally realizing snake blows. Give it a few more lists and he'll be around 2 spots down and marth should be going up

swag me the **** out

He suggz so bad, he just gets juggled and bagged around and he afraids of anything in the air

 

[Kantrip]

I was bored.

[COLLAPSE="Sorry, forgot to COLLAPSE"]

[/COLLAPSE]
Everywhere (S) - Metaknight
The Flying Krock (A) - Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco
K. Rool's Keep (B) - Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu
Gloomy Gulch (C) - Lucario, Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game and Watch, Toon Link
Krazy Kremland (D) - Fox, Wolf, Rosalina
Krem Quay (E) - Donkey Kong, Kirby, Random, R.O.B, Pit, Sonic
Crocodile Cauldron (F) - Ike, Sheik, Luigi, Ness, Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer
Gangplank Galleon(G) - Lucas, Mario, Bowser, Samus, Captain Falcon
The Lost World (H) - Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

 

[Browny]

Except Peach's results don't trump Sonic's, and neither have pulled off major stuff in the same league as Wolf and Fox over the season, with the exception of Sonic's run at MLG Dallas.



I don't mind, really. Go for it.





Sonic and Peach's match up spreads are nearly identical, and the two of them have identical results for the entirety of the season. Sonic has a one up in a major area in MLG Dallas' results, but Peach players DID technically outplace Sonic's at WHOBO3. In each respective region, Sonic and Peach are placing in the same area.

So from a match up and results perspective, the two are practically even.
I feel Sonic is better than Peach because besides those two factors, and aside from his one bad match up (Lucario, which you don't see too often in tournaments to begin with), he deals with most of top and high tier just fine. He doesn't struggle in tournaments any harder than Peach does.

The reason Sonic can't be above Wolf or Fox is because aside from Pikachu (again, not really common, and even then, the two characters have proven that the CG isn't the entire match up), Fox and Wolf seem to have a more appealing match up ratio with the rest of the common tournament characters in comparison to Sonic (something Peach doesn't have). Above that, they have also shown more success as the season progressed than Sonic has (again, something Peach doesn't have).

I can say that Sonic should be above Wolf or Fox all I want, but I wouldn't be able to prove that because I lack proof in results, match ups, and experience. This is not the same situation as Sonic has with Peach. That's why I feel like I can say Sonic > Peach, but not Sonic > Fox/Wolf.

Incidentially, this is exactly what happened with some of the match ups for Sonic in the MU Spreads from the BBR. There's no way ROB should be a -2, but he's labeled as such because there's no support other than my own word and personal experience.

The situations with Sonic and Peach, and Sonic and Fox/Wolf are completely different. You can argue one because you have evidence (results and general opinion of questionable BBR MU Ratios) and backing (Seagull, for example), while you can't argue the other because you completely lack all of those things.

Hope I helped answer your question.

Instead of coming up with an idea for an MSpaint pic to represent this list with the first thing that came to my mind, it just so happened it was a song, relating to your posts.

I wrote this for you espy

To the music of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzQKECQgjW8

Spoiler

Well theres a little hedgehog running around E tier and he’ll never stop
Hes been running down there, running there for years
Though hes that shown he can mix it with the top
He’s not safe on block, but he’ll just run the clock
He stops once in his life just to say…

What about me, it isn’t fair
High tier results but they don’t care
Cant you see, peach is worse than me
I just want to be in D…

Well theres a pretty girl who in the last 5 tier lists hasn’t moved a spot
She gets bodied by marth, cant kill to save her life
Her placings at big tourneys are not that hot
She gets a free +2, sonic starts to spew
She runs to the street and she taunts

Did I win? This is fun!
I’ve got good matchups that I’ve never won
In this tier, Wolf cant let you share
You just wish you had my fair

... had my fair

So Peaches take note and see the Sonic mains
They may be few, but unlike you
They win big at MLG
So listen as they whisper
“I want to be in D”

And now I’m ranting on the forums but the list, is done.
Nothing has changed, I swear its pre-arranged
And I’m mad and forever alone
Im ignoring dark.pch, I’ve read your rants before
But sometimes I wish results...
...were worth more

What about me, it isn’t fair
No one respects my spindash-bair
Cant you see, peach is worse than me
I just want to...

What about me, it isn’t fair
High tier results but they don’t care
Cant you see, peach is worse than me
I just want to
I just want to
I just want to be in D…

What about me?
What about me?
What about me?

 

[Yikarur]

^awesome =D @ DKC2 Thing

 

[Browny]

wtf lol people postin my stuff I didnt even know hahaha

Idk it gets harder and harder coz as tier lists are revised more, characters move less and the whole thing starts to stagnate so theres not much... inspiration, shall we say.

 

[Krystedez]

That was epic Browny.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I saw Snake falling coming a while now, but Diddy taking his place?
Do people still run to MK to fight Diddy?
Am I missing something?

edit: PLEASE collapse that HUGE image, blindsniper.

 

[Kantrip]

I collapsed mine now. It was equally as HUGE.

 

[Kuraudo]

Sonic is the Goku of this tier list. He's looked down upon by his enemies and the "elite" as low class, and yet he still manages to fight with the best of them. Capable of BEATING the best of them. And in the end?

He's just a 'monkey'.

 

[WindMajor]

Browny that was amazing.

Bravo

 

[Fire!]

TOs please start holding low tier tourneys.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I have not been reading this thread because I was on vacation. If anyone said anything to me, I don't care.

Anyway, I was reading the voting data and stumbled across this:

Character Avg Mode Median Std Dev Min Max
Toon Link 14.78 14 14 1.410 14 21
Fox 15.64 15 15 1.528 14 20
Wolf 17.60 16 17 2.820 14 25

I don't see why the tier gap wasn't between Fox and Wolf. The difference between Toon Link and Fox was less than one point, and the difference between Fox and Wolf was almost 2 points. In addtion, the deviation for Wolf was much wider than Fox's (14 and 20 compared to 14 and 25) and more narrow than Toon Link's (indicating that more people thought Fox was closer to 20 than closer to 14 but still). If Toon Link qualifies for high tier, then Fox does too. Their votes were almost identical on average.

 

[Shaya]

Stage 2.

10char.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Care to explain stage 2? There's not really much there, just a few numbers.

Oh, I see.

But I'm not really convinced Fox needed such a vote. It's obvious there was a gap there. The break between TL and Fox is pretty arbitrary, and the voting average is like... statistically insignificant. There's a bigger difference between GaW and Toon Link.

Not a big deal, but yeah Fox probably should have been high tier on this list, or TL should have been mid tier. You could also just say TL is in a weird place and not Fox, but considering the pretty large gap between Fox and Wolf that doesn't really exist between Wolf and Peach, I'd say it's the former.

TL;DR TL and Fox were closer in votes than TL and GaW or Fox and Wolf, which would suggest they are the same tier, but they are separated which isn't really consistent.

Edit: Hmm why was stage 2 done this way? You could really have just placed a divide between any two characters whose difference is >1 and voted on characters who had a larger break. Example:

Character Avg Mode Median Std Dev Min Max
Meta Knight 1 1 1 0 1 1

Diddy Kong 2.25 2 2 0.433 2 3
Snake 3.19 3 3 1.025 2 6
Falco 4.07 4 4 0.752 2 7

Marth 5.80 5 6 1.736 3 10
Wario 6.55 6 6 1.425 3 10
Ice Climbers 7.08 7 7 1.526 5 10
Captain Olimar 7.48 8 8 1.017 5 9
Pikachu 7.66 9 8 1.538 3 10

King Dedede 10.78 10 10.5 1.097 8 13
Lucario 10.94 10,11 11 0.914 9 13
Zero Suit Samus 11.92 12,13 12 0.979 9 13
Mr.Game & Watch 12.23 13 13 0.963 10 13

Toon Link 14.78 14 14 1.410 14 21
Fox 15.64 15 15 1.528 14 20

Wolf 17.60 16 17 2.820 14 25
Peach 17.73 16 17 1.875 15 23

Donkey Kong 18.94 18 19 2.090 15 26
Kirby 19.26 21 19 2.279 15 23
R.O.B. 19.32 20 19 3.145 15 28
Pit 19.91 20 20 2.316 15 25
Sonic 20.75 18,22 21 2.301 17 24

Ike 23.05 23 23 1.597 18 27
Luigi 24.07 24 23 1.781 20 28 -- This gap is 1.02, you can leave it.
Sheik / Zelda 24.37 25 25 2.100 18 27

Sheik 26.00 26 26 1.658 19 28
Ness 26.10 27 26 1.175 23 28

Pokémon Trainer 27.42 28 28 1.251 22 28

Yoshi 29.05 29 29 0.293 29 31

Lucas 30.41 30 30 0.921 29 35
Mario 31.19 31 31 1.108 30 36
Bowser 32.69 32 32 1.602 30 37
Samus 33.37 33 33 1.494 31 38
Captain Falcon 33.92 34 34 1.207 32 37

Link 35.30 35 35 1.534 31 38
Jigglypuff 35.66 36 36 1.479 32 38
Zelda 35.73 37 36 1.797 30 38

Ganondorf 37.64 38 38 0.874 34 38

Using this method things naturally start to break up after about mid tier due to a deviation in votes (people have more widely varying opinions about low-mid and low tier), but say you take any of these "tiers" which are 1 or 2 characters and vote them into the tier above or below them, you would have a much more accurate list that might look something like this (keep in mind that except in the case of Wolf and Peach, I moved every character into the tier above them, because Wolf and Peach are two "tiers" away, and with PT and Yoshi, I wasn't really sure how to handle that, so I just placed them into mid, but again, that isn't really the point, they're in their own tier so they would have been voted separately):

S: MK
A: Diddy, Snake, Falco
B: Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu
C: Lucario, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game and Watch, Toon Link, Fox
D: Wolf, Peach, Donkey Kong, ROB, Pit, Sonic
E: Ike, Luigi, Shielda, Sheik, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Yoshi
F: Lucas, Bowser, Mario, Samus, Captain Falcon
G: Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganon

 

[-LzR-]

This thread needs moar Doc King