Official BBR Tier List v6

[Madame puff]

This is what I think, please tell me if im wrong.
Peach mains focused so much on the MK match up, that they didn't focus much on the Falco, Marth and Snake match ups. This caused them to lose a lot to those characters. With mk banned, Peach mains will focus more on the MU's with those characters and they will do better.

This true but at the same time we (peach mains) also focus on the marth matchup a lot as well. Also some of us focused on the marth match up more than the Mk one. So we other peaches could learn from those who focused more on the marth match up.

P.s. I love how doc king says here that peach vs ddd is -2 yet on the ddd vs peach matchup thread he says its barely ddd's favor. Lol

 

[Fuujin]

Why are people still responding to Doc King?

 

[Shaya]

Meh, Marth mains are between 'we win every match up' to 'we are pretty much even but may have a slight tick in our favour'

When you argue with the former long enough, they generally go with the latter train of thought.

 

[Chuee]

1. Yoshi's
2. Halberd
3. Brinstar
4. Rainbow
5. Ps1
6. Ps2
7. Seige
8. Frigate
9. Lylat
10. Delfino

10 out of 13 stages.

1. fair
2. only on certain phases
3. Bad D3 stage anyway
4. only on certain phases
5. only on certain phases
6. only on certain phases
7. only on 1 out of 3 phases
8. only on 2nd phase
9. fair
10. only on certain phases
cool story bro

 

[Conviction]

^ Overall Score: Very Situational.

 

[Laem]

I'm impressed actually.
10/13 is quite a lot, not to mention:
"only on certain phases": phases though, that will always come by, and more often than not round a time where players will be reaching high % on their first stocks.
+ dthrow becomes lethal on all 3 phases of CS;
dthrow becomes lethal on all phases of PS except the first one;
On halberd, when there's not a slope there's either a walkoff or that glitched ledge thing which allows for infinites;
On rainbow, dthrow will more often than not result in a walkoff, wall infinite or slope rather than nothing in particular;
Brinstar, not too good a stage but that's no reason to disregard it: a grab there will more often than not result in either slope**** or the bubbles-****, wouldn't be suprised if dthrow plain infinites there idk.

So yeah, I know it's fun and easy to not actually think, but lets try nonetheless shall we?

 

[Tesh]

The tilting of CS is kinda like Lylat though isn't it? Which would turn the slope the wrong way for the infinite to work anyway. Sure you can get some more regrabs, but probably not enough to do like 100+ damage.

Meh, I generally ban CS vs DDDs. Rather face him on Rc and Delfino.

 

[Cassio]

I'm impressed actually.
10/13 is quite a lot, not to mention:
"only on certain phases": phases though, that will always come by, and more often than not round a time where players will be reaching high % on their first stocks.
+ dthrow becomes lethal on all 3 phases of CS;
dthrow becomes lethal on all phases of PS except the first one;
On halberd, when there's not a slope there's either a walkoff or that glitched ledge thing which allows for infinites;
On rainbow, dthrow will more often than not result in a walkoff, wall infinite or slope rather than nothing in particular;
Brinstar, not too good a stage but that's no reason to disregard it: a grab there will more often than not result in either slope**** or the bubbles-****, wouldn't be suprised if dthrow plain infinites there idk.

So yeah, I know it's fun and easy to not actually think, but lets try nonetheless shall we?

Agree with this. Doc King may be bias but he seems pretty knowledgable on DDD.

 

[Spelt]

That's like charlie sheen saying amy winehouse had her act together.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im going to come into this thread and laugh at all of you when, if in 6 or so months MK is still banned, Peach suddenly starts getting better and placing well in nationals.

Then I laugh at Doc King because the spacies even will outplace D3 hard along with everyone considered High Tier and High-Md Tier, which will just prove my point that he should be top of mid.

 

[Kuro~]

Why does Marth even need to jump against Pika though?

It's nearly [if not completely] unanimous by the 'active' SWF Marth community that we win the MU. This includes Chad who plays against ESAM regularly. This includes Mike who supposedly has level headed ideas about mus and lost to ESAM in their one set.

There are very few Marth players who are exceptional in mu understanding outside of meta knight. Marth mains who wished to be successful had to toil hard and far for a millennia, and it isn't very surprising to me that nearly every "most successful" Marth player loses against every player of a character not named MK or Snake. </johns>

You know who I trust[ed] about 'other mus' other than MK? Pierce (although I'm assuming he's quit at this point - but my god his play in some of the mus i've seen is just a work of art) and Kadaj (who has pretty fantastic records against players of characters he believes Marth wins the mu in).
Those two players, and honestly not many other ones, are those I know who have put hundreds and hundreds of hours into understanding the most finest points of what Marth can do and who actively work on mus not named Meta Knight.

At this point, the hive mind is pretty focussed on Diddy Kong.

Mike said he thought it was even in the back room~ lol.

Yeah, marths best moves are more grounded (DB and probably dtilt). He can jump, he just needs to be aware of pikas options in that position. I can see marth winning more RPS exchanges between the two, what I dont see is how he limits pika to simply punishing mistakes (its not just marths, a lot of people seem to think this I think from a misunderstanding of how to play pika).

I understand your poiint about MU knowledge, the only thing Id say is that I think this applies to other characters too. Unfortunately Chaz and ESAM havent played in forever I think, but I think ESAM and Kadaj may be playing more frequently. Also I think mike believes the MU is even.

And as a resident of SoCal Im also rooting pleading for marth to solve the diddy problem .


ROB, Toon Link, Kirby, Mario, Ike, ZSS, Sonic, and Snake could be even on degrees of how broad even should be. But then I'd also be inclined to bring down GW, Olimar, and ICs. I wouldnt say any of those characters are hindered by the MU though.

ROB I can actually agree, but Im the lone voice here and some Pikas and even ROBS think this is +2.

PT I mostly agree with +1, but both sides seem to think if pika abuses fatigue its more a +2 which I find reasonable.

Lucas could definitely be +1, but I wont get into that, lol. Side note but ness would destroy pika if we couldnt grab release to edgeguard/upsmash.

Mario does exceptionally well vs pika. Both have fairly similar traits and pikachu definitely is no hinderance to mario. Pika does slightly better in several areas that can put mario as a -1 when defined narrowly, but are negligible if more inclusive (making it 0).

DK and Pit I dont agree with. Not that they arent decent characters, but pika just tends to fill in the holes of their weaknesses. For those MUs to be better someone would need to revolutionize their playstyle to cover those weaknesses, which may or may not be possible.

Pit hardly requires a revolutionary change in playstyle. It's simply a different side of the same coin. I hope to have some "evidence" by the time the next bbr mu project goes around.

 

[Doc King]

I'm impressed actually.
10/13 is quite a lot, not to mention:
"only on certain phases": phases though, that will always come by, and more often than not round a time where players will be reaching high % on their first stocks.
+ dthrow becomes lethal on all 3 phases of CS;
dthrow becomes lethal on all phases of PS except the first one;
On halberd, when there's not a slope there's either a walkoff or that glitched ledge thing which allows for infinites;
On rainbow, dthrow will more often than not result in a walkoff, wall infinite or slope rather than nothing in particular;
Brinstar, not too good a stage but that's no reason to disregard it: a grab there will more often than not result in either slope**** or the bubbles-****, wouldn't be suprised if dthrow plain infinites there idk.

So yeah, I know it's fun and easy to not actually think, but lets try nonetheless shall we?

Slope infinites will give D3 great counterpicks that can involve in hard counters. This also gives opponents less stages to chose on. Even on neutrals this can be done (Although not as hard, but still pretty useful). Because the 3 stages without slopes can be striked by D3.

Im going to come into this thread and laugh at all of you when, if in 6 or so months MK is still banned, Peach suddenly starts getting better and placing well in nationals.

Then I laugh at Doc King because the spacies even will outplace D3 hard along with everyone considered High Tier and High-Md Tier, which will just prove my point that he should be top of mid.

Fail point. The mk banned metagame only just started. If you're gonna jump into conclusions then I could say that Peach is gonna go lower because she didn't make anything so far in the MK BANNED metagame.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Im going to come into this thread and laugh at all of you when, if in 6 or so months MK is still banned, Peach suddenly starts getting better and placing well in nationals.

Ahahahahahahaha!

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

 

[Cassio]

Pit hardly requires a revolutionary change in playstyle. It's simply a different side of the same coin. I hope to have some "evidence" by the time the next bbr mu project goes around.

Rereading that it sound harsher than I meant. I think you already know what I mean, it just requires some creativity and practical applications.

That's like charlie sheen saying amy winehouse had her act together.

You say this as if people from CO play this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

I love this video.

You know youve screwed up if Doc King comes in with a burn

 

[Seagull Joe]

Im going to come into this thread and laugh at all of you when, if in 6 or so months MK is still banned, Peach suddenly starts getting better and placing well in nationals.

Then I laugh at Doc King because the spacies even will outplace D3 hard along with everyone considered High Tier and High-Md Tier, which will just prove my point that he should be top of mid.

Spacies already do regularly outplace . Even in tourneys where isn't prevalent, the good mains always place high. isn't even a main hindrance to . She gets beat by several other characters.

I'm gonna laugh in 6 months when people still don't realize that won't do worst with gone because people cannot just learn characters extremely fast. Those who have always used / AND learned the matchup against will most likely beat the player, but those who just picked up them for the cg will not win. Pocket any character doesn't usually work unless the other player is bad.

Case in point, I've never lost to a / player that wasn't Esam, Coney, Atomsk, etc... vs / has a lot more factors then just the cg. I've had people try to cp me before and they failed...

I don't care about vs cause no can even do the cg...

The concept of counters applies to characters, but the matchup is also a main factor.

 

[Doc King]

Spacies already do regularly outplace . Even in tourneys where isn't prevalent, the good mains always place high. isn't even a main hindrance to . She gets beat by several other characters.

I'm gonna laugh in 6 months when people still don't realize that won't do worst with gone because people cannot just learn characters extremely fast. Those who have always used / AND learned the matchup against will most likely beat the player, but those who just picked up them for the cg will not win. Pocket any character doesn't usually work unless the other player is bad.

Case in point, I've never lost to a / player that wasn't Esam, Coney, Atomsk, etc... vs / has a lot more factors then just the cg. I've had people try to cp me before and they failed...

I don't care about vs cause no can even do the cg...

The concept of counters applies to characters, but the matchup is also a main factor.

Win post.

Same thing goes for Falco imo because Climbers take time to use and can't be pocketed. Pika you need to learn stuff about him.

I've tried to pocket pika on Falco before and ended up getting 3 stocked by it. Lol.

D3 you have to learn about counterpick stages, infinites, combos, edge guarding (Like RCO Lag), etc.

I think that ppl seem to overrate the causes of the mk banned thing to completely change stuff.

 

[Steam]

You say this as if people from CO play this game.

We do, spelt doesn't tho...

 

[phi1ny3]

Win post.

Same thing goes for Falco imo because Climbers take time to use and can't be pocketed. Pika you need to learn stuff about him.

I've tried to pocket pika on Falco before and ended up getting 3 stocked by it. Lol.

D3 you have to learn about counterpick stages, infinites, combos, edge guarding (Like RCO Lag), etc.

I think that ppl seem to overrate the causes of the mk banned thing to completely change stuff.

Wasn't Sky able to consistently CG Choice and DEHF when he picked up Wario? Maybe I'm thinking of just Falco, but I know I saw a video of him doing it very consistently.

 

[Lilfut]

Okay, this is probably the wrong place to post this, but what are the chances of a hack tier list, including some of the major PSAs like Wisp, Cloud, or Shadow, and possibly even the more obscure ones such as Sage Naruto and Clare?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Okay, this is probably the wrong place to post this, but what are the chances of a hack tier list, including some of the major PSAs like Wisp, Cloud, or Shadow, and possibly even the more obscure ones such as Sage Naruto and Clare?

Zero percent chance.

 

[Ussi]

They have PSA hack tourneys don't they? Go ask the people who participate in them to make a tier list.

 

[Spelt]

You say this as if people from CO play this game.

Oh, if only that actually mattered for anything.

People might actually take you seriously.

 

[djdevil96]

Toon Link in high Teir? AWWWWWWWW YYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAAA

 

[Cassio]

Oh, if only that actually mattered for anything.

People might actually take you seriously.

It does when your only comments are criticisms, because truthfully you dont know left from right about smash for your criticisms or praises to really matter outside entertainment value. I remember your pre-trolling days

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario has a +4 on Wolf Seagull, he is super easy to gimp, gets CG'd by Lucario, comboing Wolf is free, Junebug says the MU is free and it is super easy to beat him,

~

Marth is hard to master tbh, most Marth's I play against that aren't from a region with a Lucario do pretty bad against Luc most of the time. I personally think that MU is even or super close to it, edging into Marth's favor a bit, but a lot of Marth's play it wrong from what I could see from vids and personal Exp.

So in a way I can kinda agree with Shaya on that with Marth.

 

[Linkshot]

Summary of Marth v Lucario

fSmash first and you lose

 

[| Big D |]

Yoshi has seriously been given a bad rap due to his difficulty to play.

The tournament results can be explained by the fact that Yoshi has a high learning curve as opposed to the other characters on the tier list.

If we examine all of Yoshi's traits, we can see that his traits are quite good.

Range and speed on many of his attacks.

No useless moves (even eggroll has it's uses to cover landings.)

Heavy

Grab armor + nair for kills

Greatest aerial mobility with a command grab, great for b reversing

Chain grab with many follow ups

Spammy projectile with great damage and range, not to mention can cover many landing options in his bad match ups

Powerful kill moves in the air and on the ground

Lengthy and speedy pivot grab

Fast on the ground

Many top Yoshis have been placing well as of late. I believe in 08, Yoshi had the lowest tourney usage, fun fact.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Theres a lot of hard to use characters, that doesnt excuse their being bad.

 

[Steam]

you forgot the one Achilles heel of yoshi...

this is brawl... and yoshi has no OOS game. that suuuucks.

 

[Judo777]

I'm gonna throw down the definition that combos are any series of moves that can be chained such that the opponent never leaves hitstun. Chain grabs ARE combos they are just a special kind of combo that isn't done with attacks. Frame traps do not quantify as combo's IMO because the opponent does technically leave hitstun, so in the case of Marth, or Wolf they can escape due to a frame 1 invincible move that can't be frame trapped.

I suppose in the rare case of locks like jab locks and such they technically leave hitstun but I would consider that almost a crumple state. So add that in somewhere lol.

A combo is any series of moves that can be chained together such that the opponent never leaves hitstun and or a helpless form of lag. Boom!

 

[M@v]

Wario cg is also more situational/does less overall damage than pika/icy cgs since it doesnt start until the 50s.

 

[Shaya]

but goes well into death percent and you get an fthrow out of it as well.

 

[John12346]

I'm gonna throw down the definition that combos are any series of moves that can be chained such that the opponent never leaves hitstun. Chain grabs ARE combos they are just a special kind of combo that isn't done with attacks. Frame traps do not quantify as combo's IMO because the opponent does technically leave hitstun, so in the case of Marth, or Wolf they can escape due to a frame 1 invincible move that can't be frame trapped.

Forgive me, but I need to intercept this statement to make a clarification.

In the case of hitstun, no matter how strong an attack is, you can always cancel your hitstun after Frame 26 with an attack or an airdodge(I think a jump as well?), because Brawl is just gay like that. We all know this already.

This isn't the case, however, with Special moves. You can't cancel hitstun with Specials, and if you want to do it, you actually have to wait until your hitstun ends before the Special can come out, unlike normal attacks. Remember that Brawl has the same amount of hitstun Melee does, so, since you can't cancel hitstun with Specials in Brawl, and you can't cancel hitstun at all in Melee, you should have a general feel of how long you have to wait to use Special moves in direct comparison.

It's just nitpicking, but in the case of strings of attacks where any one attack in the chain does 26 frames of hitstun or more, Marth or Wolf won't be able to break out of it with their invincible moves, but it still doesn't count as a combo because hitstun can be broken out of with other moves at that point.

 

[Shaya]

Partial correction

You can cancel your hitstun once the knockback is enough to enter you into tumble, at frame 26 by air dodges or attacks.
However, the knockback prior to the minimum of tumble is 30 frames of hit stun, and a move that hits with less knockback than tumble cannot be DI'd and I believe ASDI doesn't work either; hence why you can't DI to avoid marth's fthrow fsmash like you can in melee.

 

[Ishiey]

Isn't it frame 19 for AD and 26 for aerials? Idk. This stuff should be common knowledge, I feel like there's a smash lab vid that mentions it but cbf to look it up now. Why can't we have a nice and simple guide that tells us all of these basic things, really X_x

Never knew that knockback before tumble was always 30 frames of stun though. Then what about the different stun animations that characters suffer before really being sent into tumble? Or is that just for when they're grounded? The different animations are most obvious with Wario, if that makes anything clearer. Idk man, I need sleep.

 

[John12346]

All these corrections omglol

You can airdodge starting on Frame 14, apparently, and here's my source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNNe3aR5bGc&feature=related (1:01)

So, in other words, any string of attacks that has a 14 or larger frame differential between attacks is not a combo, even though Marth and Wolf can't break out with their invincible attacks, because they start at whatever amount of frames it takes to go into tumble.

The amount of time it takes for a character to enter tumble, that's dependent on attack, and would be the same in Brawl or Melee, correct?

 

[Shaya]

Never knew that knockback before tumble was always 30 frames of stun though.

No!
Hitstun can be from 1-30 frames, before the knockback will send you into tumble, you'll still have >30 frames of hit stun [as in, can't jump, can't use special moves], but frames 26 and whatever allows for attacks/air dodges.

Marth's forward air to dtilt to something is a combo that can only be avoided through SDI, as at low percent the first two attacks have less knockback then what equates to 30 frames of hit stun. Technically, fair -> dtilt -> fsmash is a combo at low percent, fthrow, nair, fsmash is a pretty well known combo too. At higher percent, ignoring the fact that each of those moves will send people too far back to combo, the moves knockback will be larger than 30 frames and hence they can AD@14, AT@26

Sheik's ftilt combawz only has an SDI component to 'avoid it', and considering the hitlag is so low on it is pretty hard to get out of. You can't airdodge/attack to get out of its hit stun early while it still combos. Its just that the difference between frame 5 and the IASA of ftilt is large enough that a 1 frame escape (Marth/Wolf) will work, while a 2-3ish frame escape (jump, but not all characters rise fast enough) or 4 frame airdodge isn't enough to escape.

 

[Ishiey]

Eek X_x my bad. Obviously I meant hitstun instead of tumble lol. Thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot more sense.

 

[Ghostbone]

So, in other words, any string of attacks that has a 14 or larger frame differential between attacks is not a combo, even though Marth and Wolf can't break out with their invincible attacks, because they start at whatever amount of frames it takes to go into tumble.

Well if they don't do enough knockback then it can still be a combo with up to like 30 frames between the hits.

Marth and Wolf's invincible attacks are very useful, if we look at this imaginary situation.
Say a move does 23 frames of hitstun, but the next attack won't land until frame 26, character's can air-dodge on frame 24 right? BUT, invincibility doesn't start until the 4th frame of the air-dodge (so um, MK can escape this since his is invincible on frame 3-_-)
So everyone will still get hit by the next attack, and it's a combo on them.
Marth and Wolf however, can become invincible on that frame 24 (and still be invincible on frame 26, and thus avoid it.

/random imaginary example but you get the idea.
Marth and Wolf can get out of combos that other characters can't (ZSS's down-b helps her get out of combos as well, idk if it's invincible frame 1 though), characters with 3 frame nairs, or two frame uairs in MK's case >.> can get out of combos some other characters can't as well, Wario's bike helps him get out of combos, etc.
Specials are useful for getting out of what would be a combo otherwise.