Official BBR Tier List v6

[~ Gheb ~]

You were obviously not trolling.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Whatever you say brah

 

[Espy Rose]

I love it when Gheb plays Freud on the internet.

 

[bubbaking]

I love it when drama simply has to break out here...it simply has to.

 

[GOofyGV]

let's talk about captain falcon

is he better or worse than ganondorf?

 

[infiniteV115]

Better.
I'm beginning to wonder why there are characters lower than Jiggs. Don't Zelda and Ganon have better results than Jiggs?

 

[Linkshot]

Better.
I'm beginning to wonder why there are characters lower than Jiggs. Don't Zelda and Ganon have better results than Jiggs?

Jiggs has at least decent fundamentals for Brawl's gameplay style. People just don't play Jiggs because there's no pride in it, and everybody will hate you

 

[zmx]

The person using Jigglypuff has a psychological advantage (can you imagine losing to a cute, pink fluff ball?). That's why she is better. True story.

Also V115, I've been busy with exams and other stuff. My exams end today so I'm planning to get back into brawl again. Will probably join the AIB ladder this time. Good work with ZSS. Saw you on stream the other day.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I do think zelda and ganon have better results than jiggs (if I remember correctly), but as zmx said, it's the psychological thing that may put jiggs at an advantage. However, with tournament results, IMO jiggs should be tied with ganon and zelda slightly higher.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jigglypuff is better than Zelda.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Not disagreeing, but just pointing out the facts that Zelda places better than Jiggs and both have overall the exact same rating on the MU chart.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jigglypuff is far better than Zelda.

Zelda's mus are wrong.

 

[bubbaking]

Zelda has two -4 MUs; Jiggs has only one. Now, here's a question for the Jiggs experts: it's clear that Jiggs should play very defensively, even more so than a lot of other chars. If that's the case, then why don't Puffs plank more? I'm not talking about vertical planking. That's left to the likes of MK, G&W, and Pit. I'm thinking more horizontal planking, pulling away from the stage and covering your return to the ledge with fairs and bairs...

Edit: To clarify why my first sentence explains why Jiggs is still better than Zelda, gaining one more slightly advantageous (+1) MU does not make up for also gaining another unwinnable MU.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

From experience Zelda has at least 4 -4 matchups. Olimar, MK, Snake and ICs. Falco, Marth and G&W are all arguable -4 matchups as well since two of them are impossible for Zelda to punish, while the other... idk. It's G&W.

Wolf might as well be -4. bleh.

 

[Fuujin]

Well I'm not sure if Snake and ICs are THAT bad.
Probably more torwards 3 imo

but if ICs do SSDI then it's -4 lol.

 

[Hylian]

Or if they know the secret .

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You throughly convinced me it was -4 about 6 months ago, and after playing the MU, I decided it is pretty much that bad. lolllll

 

[Fuujin]

lol hylian conviced me it was no better than -3 with the secret,
it just sounds depressing to say she has -4 on them but it certainly is bad.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I need to know this secret now.

 

[Sylarius]

Can't wait for the new tier list.
Also Ganon isn't bad, how are you supposed to dodge that utilt wind hitbox

 

[GOofyGV]

just hit him with an move if he is charging.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Its not that easy man, its just not.

 

[GOofyGV]

that move does take like 81 frames of start up ...
or run/roll away or just hit him with something.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Or just teabag on start up, then spot dodge and punish with whatever move that takes less than 30 frames.

 

[bubbaking]

From experience Zelda has at least 4 -4 matchups. Olimar, MK, Snake and ICs. Falco, Marth and G&W are all arguable -4 matchups as well since two of them are impossible for Zelda to punish, while the other... idk. It's G&W.

Wolf might as well be -4. bleh.

Well, MK might as well have a +4 against Jiggs. All of his moves, air and ground, have more priority than Jiggs and he's one of the few chars that stops my planking idea in my mind (no one's told me why Puffs don't do that, btw).

I don't think Snake should have a +4 on Zelda. Zelda is one of the chars who has reliable kill moves on Snake. Then she has a bunch more that still kill, but not so reliably. She doesn't have to worry about Nikita when she's recovering, cuz she can just reflect it. Also, she can somewhat counter-camp with side B, which can kill Snake if he ciphers near the upper blastzone.

G&W dies way too early, even with bucket-breaking.

Falco's lasers can be safely reflected if he's at long range and his bad recovery means he doesn't have to be launched all the way to the blastzone for him to die, so Zelda probably has moves to reliably kill him too. She only needs relatively few punishes.

Marth has the same problem against Zelda in this game that he has against her in Melee, although not as bad. His moves won't kill unless they're tippered, which is worse than can be said for Zelda, and his moves are laggy enough that if he whiffs an attack, he can be kicked or dash attacked. In other words, Marth can be punished; it's just much harder than most other chars.

that move does take like 81 frames of start up ...
or run/roll away or just hit him with something.

Running/rolling away is playing right into his hands. The windbox is meant to counter methods of retreat.

 

[smashkng]

How do Marth's moves not kill untippered. From using Marth it's only hard enough to be considered like that against the heaviest characters, like DK or DDD. For example Marth's Utilt and Usmash kill at decent percents even when untippered and they kill even earlier on a character with an awfully slow fast fall like Zelda. And Fsmash eventually kills untippered as well on a characters as light as Zelda. Also Marth can only be punished with a Kick or Dash Attack if he messes up his spacing and Zelda is one of the easiest characters to space well on because she's one of the characters who don't move around a lot.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well, MK might as well have a +4 against Jiggs. All of his moves, air and ground, have more priority than Jiggs and he's one of the few chars that stops my planking idea in my mind (no one's told me why Puffs don't do that, btw).

Please tell me how this is a -4 for Jiggs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGYpI0MbfYY Especially the match on Brinstar.

 

[infiniteV115]

Perhaps Nairo doesn't know the MU? Jiggs isn't exactly the most common character

 

[makoforce]

when is v7 coming out?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Perhaps Nairo doesn't know the MU? Jiggs isn't exactly the most common character

Regardless of whether or not he knew the MU, the game shouldnt be going to last hit if it's a -4.

 

[infiniteV115]

I disagree. Ratios mean nothing if you don't know the MU.

Besides, Jiggs is broken.

 

[Z'zgashi]

A -4 means you have almost no chance to win the MU, and that it's unwinnable under almost any circumstance.

Unwinnable under any circumstance =/= last hit games.

 

[C.J.]

I completely disagree with that definition of what a -4 is.

All MUs are assumed to be played at top level with both players knowing the MU at a very high level. Assuming that those criteria are met, then a -4 MU would be unwinnable.

At least, that's how I view MUs to be and would hazard a guess that most others view them like that as well.

EDIT: Oh look, Doc King is back. *waves*

 

[infiniteV115]

A -4 means you have almost no chance to win the MU, and that it's unwinnable under almost any circumstance.

Unwinnable under any circumstance =/= last hit games.

Unwinnable under almost any circumstance = winnable under some circumstances --> last hit games, sometimes.

Also, this.

Note that for all scores a competitive level of play is assumed and the performance of top and high level players was generally considered more strongly than what is seen in lower level play.

Quoted straight from the MU chart thread. I think to assume top/high level play, you'd have to assume that, you know, they both know the MU.
I mean, I wouldn't call something like NR vs Mike Haze (hypothetical, I don't think this has ever happened) top level play, even if it IS between 2 top level players. Cause, you know, neither of them have experience in the ZSS:Marth MU (AFAIK) and they wouldn't really know what they'd be doing.
Or, an example more analogous to this match, NR vs K Prime in R2 pools at Apex; NR has tons of Pika experience whereas K Prime probably has next to none...not exactly the best indicator of a MU ratio.
Similarly, Nairo probably had next to no Jiggs experience whereas this Jiggs player probably had tons of MK experience (almost everyone does). Which is why it was so close, despite being a very tough MU for Jiggs.

Edit: I also CTRL-F'ed 'circumstance', 'situation' and 'scenario' on the first page of the MU thread, and nothing was found. I think it's fair to assume that there isn't anything there that says a -4 is supposed to be unwinnable under almost any circumstance.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The definition according to the MU chart is 'Close to Unwinnable'. Unwinnable Under Almost Any Circumstance, which is what I said, means pretty much the same exact same thing. Dont believe me, look at the thread yourself: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316173

And if you say 'I completely disagree with that definition of what a -4 is.' then that just means you're not using the same scoring as the MU chart. The MU chart specifically says what every ratio on the chart means, and if you disagree with the definitions, then that just means you're using a completely different criteria, and therefor you opinion on the ratios themselves is incorrect, just because you're using different ratio definitions. While making points and such is still more than valid, saying you disagree with the number, while having a completely different definition of the number, means nothing.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ok, so what would one of these 'circumstances' be where the character on the losing end of a -4 MU might win?

 

[Luigisama]

Yea, another case of me thinking the right thing, but typing the wrong thing. But again, how does luigi's traction help him at all to overcome that weakness during shielding? I guess never being punished for shielding when hit by an attack could be useful. But punishing after shielding a hit is usually the better purpose.

yeah he can do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UxVl3dAbAbE#t=92s

He can also do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=itIOklgilxs#t=581s

Also when Mk glide attacks into Luigi's shield just above the ground Mk will go into Free fall and Luigi can Up b mk since the slide pushes him back staying near mk.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ok, so what would one of these 'circumstances' be where the character on the losing end of a -4 MU might win?

The person playing the character that wins the MU accidentally unplugging his controller.

 

[Raziek]

The person playing the character that wins the MU accidentally unplugging his controller.

Dedede vs. DK.

Dedede doesn't know the infinite.

Wrong.

 

[Death Arcana]

Zz stop posting you're making Utah look bad