Official BBR Tier List v7

[DeLux]

@Gheb - For the record your statement is wrong, which wouldn't be the first time you've been wrong about ICs

You stated Kain has never beaten a top IC player: Literally every IC player Kain has played has lost to him (that includes a list of like Lain in his prime, Hylian in his prime, Dojo at whobo, Myself at both Vengeance and PS4).

You stated that Pee beat ICs with MK on RC, but this is false. In the Loser's Finals set I'm referencing, McPe beat Esam's Pikachu with MK on Rainbow Cruise. He also beat Esam's ICs with Wolf on PS1

You states that there are people like me in this community that have short term success by abusing a broken character and hten put him down as soon as he loses to a better player. This is false. I'm currently 0-26 against MJGs TL (most of those being finals sets). I've had a bunch of people yell at me to try winning with the CP options or a different character. My MK and ZSS do pretty equal to what my ICs do against his TL. But generally out of state and against MJG I'll play ICs to the death through the heavens of Rainbow Cruise to the Hells of Brinstar no matter who I play against. Besides, I've had pretty consistent success no matter where I go - Top 10 in Socal (facing M2k for Top 8 in losers >_>), Apex 2012 33rd, Top 2-8 on every liberal staged MW regional that I've gone to for the last two years in spite of my own professionally diagnosed neurological impairment, so not sure about this word "short term" and this word "success".

So I doubt me putting down the character is why "nonsense" like ICs losing to ZSS or wolf spreads around. I think it spreads around because:
A. I've confirmed with multiple top/high level ICs how they feel about X MU. For example, ESAM also thinks ICs lose to ZSS last time I've checked. Vinnie thinks it's even, so it wouldn't be a stretch to think it's somewhere between even to -1. Vinnie literally told me he would go Game and Watch instead of ICs against wolf players, obviously Esam has gone both Pikachu and ICs against wolf to mixed results. So it's not nonsense in the first place
B. Nonsense about ICs spreads around because of people like Gheb who think ICs are broken and haven't even bothered to pay attention to how unviable they are as a solo main under the standard to liberal stage lists (between 7th and 10th best character). Even under the most conservative stagelists, they perform like a Top 5 character, but not a Top 2. When you have the same knowledge of the character that I have, then we can talk about character specific nonsense.

So yes, I think ICs are bad, but that's with some obvious logical basis. A glass cannon character that almost prerequisites losing a game per set leaves so little margin for error, it can adequately explain why solo ICs have never won the big one despite being "broken". People are just afraid of the infinite to see the truth and aren't willing to pick up the select characters that can handle them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Kain has never beaten a top level ICs player and Pee beat ESAMs ICs with MK on RC or something. There are too many people like DeLux in this community who have short term success by abusing a broken character and then put him down as soon as he loses to a better player. That's why nonsense like IC losing to ZSS or Wolf spreads around.

Except DeLux doesn't base MUs ratios on his own results, but on analyzing IC's and other characters' options.
He still underrates what ICs can do, though.

 

[DeLux]

I wouldn't call it underestimating what they can do. I'd call it a realistic to pessimistic understanding what they can do when things are going well for them (why I would even bother playing the character when money is on the line) weighed against what they can't do (via results, collective MU experience across many ICs, probability statistics, and option specific frame analysis)

For most common MUs, I've jokingly told people to follow the Vinnie DeLux scale:

The realistic MU ratio is probably:
(Vinnie's MU Ratio + Delux's MU Ratio)/2 = Realistic MU Ratio Range

If Esam is involved the equation looks like:
[(Vinnie's MU Ratio + DeLux's Mu Ratio)/2] *0 + Esam's MU Ratio = Esam's MU Argument

 

[Seagull Joe]

Marth: ICs lose. 45:55 probably.

and ICs lose to random lower tier characters like toon link and ZSS, so, lol...

Gheb will probably laugh at this almost as much as I did. Saying beats and that they lose to and ...-Dead-

Are you saying ICs have worse than a -1 vs MK or better than a -1?

The tier list on page 1 has Toon Link below Lucario. This is a problem.

is far better then . Trela's results are better then every I can think of. MJG is the best current and his results aren't too prominent when he fights in a region with a good unless he goes himself.

Okay so we are on the same page then.

Bubba it's pretty evident that you're just trolling me but I'll play along and invite you to watch some Marth vs ICs vids. You'll notice how safe Marth is as long as he spaces properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg0Hc_MtQ7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM9tEpPS43s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKCOQzrVzA

I haven't seen the videos, but I can tell it's probably something obscure and dumb. loses to .

It shouldn't be new. Kain has literally torn a new one for every IC he's played (outside my fluky win against him at Hype2). There have also been incidents of other Wolf's beating other ICs (mcpe/Esam off the top of my head).

It's at easily even for Wolf assuming the Wolf is without fear, ignorance, or greed in the MU

@Espy - he may not get shut down, but it's definitely not even or better since he has no sword or items

It's +1 's favor.

Idk. I'd trust the word of the best Wolf over that of a not-best ICs, no offense. If anything, even seems like a good place for that MU, seeing as how no one's brought up it up for discussion so it definitely isn't being changed.

+1 's favor. The sheer fact that if we get grabbed at 0 by just popo means we have to be Dthrow'd forever until nana can reposition herself to begin infiniting us to death.

Kain has never beaten a top level ICs player and Pee beat ESAMs ICs with MK on RC or something. There are too many people like DeLux in this community who have short term success by abusing a broken character and then put him down as soon as he loses to a better player. That's why nonsense like IC losing to ZSS or Wolf spreads around.

I'm 3-1 or 2-1 with DeLux and have beaten Lain's (But lost to his lolz). My list also has Gimr when he used to main . I barely lost to Nakat's at Apex. When I have played Vinnie in friendlies, that matchup definitely seems +1 .

 

[infiniteV115]

lolwut at Snake vs Pikachu being even.

 

[-LzR-]

Marth is probably ICs worst MU wtf.

 

[Dekillsage]

lolwut at Snakeikachu being even.

It's not like snake can't do anything. Pikachu gets destroyed by d-throw, snake can control space with grenades and kill pikachu at reasonably low %'s. Our strength is making pikachu's approach difficult, and having legitimate strong punishes on him because of his weight class.
Pikachu does well because he stops snake from recovering high and risks nothing to do it. The d-throw cg I'm certain does not work unless he's grabbed me at the ledge and this is something snake can play to avoid. He also has a strong juggle on snake... but so does everyone else. This is just the tl;dr of my thoughts on the match up.

Snake doesn't have any -2 match ups except probably metaknight.

 

[infiniteV115]

You're wrong about the dthrow CG, there's just a very very slim percent interval during which you can't nade pull.
Only reliable way to hit it is to grab him at 0 and get (fresh) fthrow x3 --> dthrow CG. Otherwise Snake can nade, but then you can just CG him at the ledge/on a slope.

I'm not saying it's -2, I'm just saying it's not even. Looks to me like Snake's worst MU.

 

[Dekillsage]

If that's the case then it can be avoided. Also I said -1 or 50-50. I'm fine with either, its not an easy match up.

MK is much worse than pikachu though. I would even say falco is also just as bad for snake as pikachu, but that match up has been explored much more than snake vs pikachu.

 

[Cassio]

This is actually a relevant discussion. Heres a point of view. Based on all information I know the MU seems somewhere between -1 and -2 leaning -2. I certainly can see it being snakes worst MU at top level play, and the only snake thats been able to take one set off ESAM in 3-4 years believes it to be snakes worst as well.

In regards to the dthrow CG, it works absolutely from 0 to 90 percent, at the edge, and randomly at other percents. Pikachu can also fthrow CG towards the ledge. Pikachu outcamps snake with jolts, and can force his approach. He also has good range, and can punish moves like ftilt and uptilt with fsmash on reaction (this isnt too relevant against most good snakes since they generally will only use them to punish or on a read, but left to note that its not a move that can be used to space on him).

Snakes dthrow is strong, but pikachu has some good reaction options to it too. For instance, stand up grab/turn around grab suddenly catches snake in the worst punishment he could recieve and its something I catch good snakes with all the time, mixing up between this and get up attack alone provide him with decent tools to escape dthrow chains (granted its a lot scarier at death percents).

Snakes only reliable kill move on pika at early percents is uptilt, but pika should never be in that range in the first place around those perents. Otherwise, snake has to pull pika to a relatively high percent just like other characters to land a kill on him.

Im actually looking for an argument on snakes behalf.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Marth is probably ICs worst MU wtf.

Are you saying loses to or beats them?

 

[-LzR-]

I'm saying Marth has a solid advantage against ICs. Probably somewhere between -1 and -2.

 

[Yobolight]

Yo Salem got 2nd at Winter Brawl.

If he keeps getting descent results, can ZSS still move down to mid tier or do should we only move her below Lucario/Toonlink?

 

[infiniteV115]

Why would you like that post Stef what the hell

 

[pidgezero_one]

shovel pls

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm saying Marth has a solid advantage against ICs. Probably somewhere between -1 and -2.

Idiot looooooool.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why doesn't everyone have seagull ignored yet

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why doesn't everyone have seagull ignored yet

Because people like me and I don't think beating people is considered matchup inexperience, but just getting outplayed.

SFP is a top 5 poster in this thread, almost as good a poster as his eternal rival V115.

 

[-LzR-]

Idiot looooooool.

Care to explain why Marth doesn't beat ICs? Marth has great range and safety in his aerials, making life hell for ICs. In this MU a small mistake from either side can mean a stock, but Marth has more room for error.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

The other is Link, who is probably +/-1 or 2ish in ICs favor due to lack of mobility. However Link doesn't really exist as a character, so it doesn't matter if it's an outlier to the swords and items rule

Everything else is pretty well shut down by ICs spectrum of options

Link bodies ICs for free.

Link just pulls bombs and cant get chain grabbed and then dairs them and they both die. it's easily +1/2 link's favor.

 

[infiniteV115]

Because people like me

Now now Seagull, there's no need to make things up. This isn't a MU chart v3 discussion where Link gimps ZSS

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think Kirby should be top tier because bair. Possibly above Falco but if not then above Marth would be acceptable.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Marth vs ICs is at least even to ICs favor. ICs can space Marth w/ blizzard and trap his landings. Quest does not have good IC practice if he is referring to the IC main in MA/New England. I haven't seen a top lvl IC main have trouble vs Marth, excluding the Vinnie vs Mikehaze, but I heard outside factors like yelling influenced the game to a higher degree. IC players need extreme focus to pull of CGs in tournament consistently. I feel thats the only thing lacking because theoretically, a lot of characters are better/worse, but because of the execution required is a lot which should be factored into the tier list. And I think that's why Delux thinks ICs should be lower than they are now.

 

[DeLux]

That's definitely not what I said >_>

 

[Seagull Joe]

Now now Seagull, there's no need to make things up. This isn't a MU chart v3 discussion where Link gimps ZSS

Did that...actually become a real discussion?

I don't think need extreme focus. People keep forgetting his Dthrow CG lasts long enough that nana will come to him in time to infinite. Once a person learns to infinite, they don't really forget the timing. It's about as hard to vary the cg timing as chain grabbing different characters with once one learns it. This is from my perspective at least. The only difference is that can also hobble.

Link bodies ICs for free.

Link just pulls bombs and cant get chain grabbed and then dairs them and they both die. it's easily +1/2 link's favor.

True.

 

[bubbaking]

It's quite clear that Quest is trolling now and that he's been trolling all along. I saw it when he made his first post regarding the current convo. No need to reply to him anymore (and I RARELY say that..........ever). I kinda died when he said Link +2's ICs.

.... snake vs ddd is 50-50
snake vs pikachu is -1 or 50-50

The point was that DDD destroying Snake is just as baseless a claim as saying that Olimar beats the ICs, TL is Mid Tier, and Snake beats the ICs "clean". Also, since WHEN does a solid -1 (at the least) entail 50-50?

It shouldn't be new. Kain has literally torn a new one for every IC he's played (outside my fluky win against him at Hype2). There have also been incidents of other Wolf's beating other ICs (mcpe/Esam off the top of my head).

Using your logic, Kain's an outlier. Move on. Also, according to you, apparently everything you do is "fluky". Makes me wonder which of your info I'm supposed to actually pay attention to.

My claim was that ICs are not the second best character in the game based on matchups like bubbaking said. This is becoming increasingly obvious if Delux is saying ICs lose to even more characters than I thought xD

You're taking DeLux way too seriously. I currently am starting to believe that he's the 'M2K' of ICs in that he's pretty pessimistic about the tourney viability of his own character. As of now, I'm compiling a pretty large list of results for ICs dating back to 2010, kinda like I did for ZSS but larger. Btw, if you really want to discredit ICs' MUs, then Oli would clearly still be #2; he's the runner-up in MU spreads and semi-consistent notable results.

#2 is suitable for him though. Snake has strong advantages on a lot of characters. His results are pretty consistent.

#DefinitionOfATopTier
#AllTopTiersAre#2

 

[bubbaking]

Double post. It's been an hour.

Also snake does make lots of money, at least that seemed to be the case before john abandoned his project. But other characters have pretty dominating MUs as well.

This can easily be explained by Success/Popularity. While I don't think that piece of data should bear as much weight as it did in Olimar's #2 placement, it does hold some important statistical value. Ever since 2009, Snake has been the second most popular character after MK, and as is fitting for such usage numbers, he's also always had the second greatest amount of money to his name. It's not surprising.

Why?

Because, as the best Wolf, I'm going to assume that Seagull has much more meaningful insight in the MU, from his experiences against top ICs, than DeLux, a not-top ICs player (proclaimed by himself, even though I used to believe the EXACT opposite). Seagull can probably accurately tell me what happens between, and what 'thoughts go through the minds' of, both top-level sides of the MU. While I'm by no means saying that DeLux can't do the same, he's not a 'best' ICs (read: ESAM or Vinnie level); therefore, he's not someone whom I'd automatically assume could tell me the truest PoV of both top-level sides of the MU (specifically his own side). In other words, "I'd trust the word [and insight and experience] of the best Wolf [who's faced top ICs] over that of a not-best ICs, no offense," clarifying my original statement.

Edit: Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm stating my 'skill bias/partiality' out loud ahead of time.

 

[NH Cody]

Marth is probably ICs worst MU wtf.

yeah LzR knows

Why doesn't everyone have seagull ignored yet

^ lol

Marth vs ICs is at least even to ICs favor. ICs can space Marth w/ blizzard and trap his landings.

You clearly don't know these characters. You can predict blizzard and hit with tipper nair. If the ICs is blizzarding with one climber at a time, you can punish with fair. ICs can't trap Marth's landings if the Marth is fairing correctly.

Quest does not have good IC practice if he is referring to the IC main in MA/New England.

1. who cares how much practice I have? that's not relevant.
2. as a matter of fact I do play ICs often. This is one of my best MUs as Marth.

I haven't seen a top lvl IC main have trouble vs Marth, excluding the Vinnie vs Mikehaze

If you read you would have noticed we talked about how Mr R beat ESAM etc. In reality results don't matter for MUs because there are always lurking variables. Just look at the darned characters. Marth fairs and aircamps. ICs can do what? very little. there's your answer to who wins the MU.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Did that...actually become a real discussion?

I don't think need extreme focus. People keep forgetting his Dthrow CG lasts long enough that nana will come to him in time to infinite. Once a person learns to infinite, they don't really forget the timing. It's about as hard to vary the cg timing as chain grabbing different characters with once one learns it. This is from my perspective at least. The only difference is that can also hobble.

True.

No, you really do need to focus, slight timing issues and split second dazes will make you drop grabs. That's how 9b still drops grabs even after maining the character for three years. It's not easy to be consistent. And popo can't dthrow solo the whole cast, and you are more than likely to be stuck holding the opponent who can mash out quick because nana is too far. The opponent will more than likely be at a higher % but despite all of this, I do think ICs are a great character & capable of winning nationals, but the focusing(not dropping grabs&use of tripless grabs) is necessary & of course the barrier of entry to play them is high. Also the stage list is a big factor.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Stop calling me the best . That title is reserved for MegaRobMan.

 

[Spelt]

Everyone knows I am the best Wolf.

 

[infiniteV115]

bubbaking, while I understand where you're coming from, you've got to keep in mind that it's Seagull and therefore you should never listen to him.

 

[bubbaking]

Hmmm, I'll keep that in mind...

If you read you would have noticed we talked about how Mr R beat ESAM etc. In reality results don't matter for MUs because there are always lurking variables. Just look at the darned characters. Marth fairs and aircamps. ICs can do what? very little. there's your answer to who wins the MU.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. OF COURSE, results matter for MUs! If they didn't, then all you're doing is spouting theorycraft as to why you think a certain character wins without backing it up. Also, I find it amusing that you quoted the fact that Mr. R beat ESAM but you totally left out Cassio's other statements about all the losses top Marths have suffered at the hands of ICs.

"Lurking variables"? Buddy, those "variables" are EXACTLY why the MU isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. Not every match is played on just SV, BF, and FD, lolz! "Just look at the darned characters"? What's that supposed to mean? Does Marth have some glaringly overpowering trait that makes it quite clear that he wins, even without referring to actual run 'experiments' and evidence? If so, then why don't the results back the claim? That one statement you made displays your character bias incredibly strongly. "Marth fairs and aircamps." Thanks for the 2010 theorybros. "ICs can do what? very little. there's your answer to who wins the MU." Your fanboy is showing. In an ideal, perfect world, maybe this kind of conclusion would hold water (no, it wouldn't), but in actual reality, your train of thought is silly.

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not, but the only reason I'm replying to you is because I've deemed that you aren't. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I only debate with people I think actually believe what they're saying. In this case, I think it's incredulous that you believe some of the things you're saying right now. Results don't matter? Marth is perfect? I mean, with the reasoning you're giving right now, Marth might as well be the #4 character on the tier list, like his MU spread indicates. He has no chance of faltering in tourney, right?

In fact, he might as well be #2 on the tier list, not Snake, as you've been suggesting, nor Oli, nor ICs, because Marth's MU spread should be a whole ton better in this 'ideal world where results don't matter'. He's perfect. Perfect spacing solves everything. Marth:MK is 0. Marth beats everyone else. Scratch everything I said. Marth is the absolute best character in the game. Said and done. I'm a believer.

#WhoWantsASmiley?

 

[infiniteV115]

That spinning smiley at the end of your wall of text was really funny. I didn't even know that existed.
A nice touch gj Bubba etc etc

Yo everybody should come to IMPULSE 2013 imo also how long does your post have to be for your signature to pop up? Is this long enough?

God dammit why wasn't that long enough?! I sure as hell thought it was long enough! Now I have to put in all this extra time and effort just to compensate
*sigh* the sad life of an asian man

HOLY CRAP STILL NOT LONG ENOUGH
Okay **** this. Come to Impulse, click here. **** my signature.

 

[bubbaking]

I think you just have to wait. I've noticed that older posts of mine that didn't display sigs before display sigs now. Then again, some of them still don't.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

lol V your sig still didn't show up

 

[bubbaking]

It's addicting, isn't it? Emoticons are my new drug.

Edit: Sorry V, you lost my support. No Project M.

 

[infiniteV115]

Testing testing signature test imo

 

[Dekillsage]

I'll come to impulse if someone drives me to canada... and someone in canada houses me


cmon guyssss I'm da bess #1

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's addicting, isn't it? Emoticons are my new drug.

Edit: Sorry V, you lost my support. No Project M.

There will probably be a Project M side event, go post in the thread saying you'll come and bring a PM setup! (more setups = more likely they'll run the side event)