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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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Grim Tuesday said:
It's -2 for those reasons. Compare to MK's actual -1 match-ups.

Also isn't it funny that M2K didn't use any tilts, he just spammed tornado and shuttle loop with the occasional aerial?

Don't get me wrong, ZSS is good and should be considerably higher on the tier list, but this won't even come close to happening again.
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Uhh it is definitely not -2. -1 is a fine ratio for it. Tilt pressure is hard to deal with once it starts but it's also not a given. ZSS can keep MK out on the ground for a while and has amazing reset potential. She can basically say "I don't like where this is going" and leave at almost any time, which is what makes the match-up doable.

The reason M2K used a lot of nado and SL is because in his past dealings with ZSS players it worked, but Salem is different. That stuff doesn't work against him and he learned that. Next time it might go differently, but don't forget that M2K and Salem have played before in tournament and apparently train together.

Also, "ok, but this won't happen again?" Really? I mean, DEHF won Apex 2010 and hasn't won a big national or anything since, but no one said "this won't happen again" when he won. There is definitely a weird anti-ZSS bias running through the community, like, even when she does well (read: usually she does at least pretty well) it isn't good enough. I mean, Marth hasn't won a tournament like Apex, nor has Pikachu, etc. But if they did no one would bat an eye.

ZSS has a bad grab, sure. This means she suffers a bit when it comes to close range pressure and dealing with very defensive players. But it is more than made up for with her superior, ridiculous even, mobility and damage output. ZSS has damage output and kill-power comparable to Snake's, punishes second only to Ice Climbers, and mobility comparable to Sonic or Fox, if not better overall. Mobility is classically one of the hardest things to theorycraft because situations it is useful in aren't measurable in, like, frame data.

Yaaay said:
Are you actually being serious with this? Not only were there players who werent American, Apex was also full of top level players. ZSS is not a very rare character, without any doubt most players have some knowledge about fighting her. ZSS has always existed, so where is this discredit coming from?

I must admit I cant believe this blond skank actually won an international, but I hope things like "ZSS is nothing but a gimmick character" wont be said again, theres just no way a 'gimmick character' could win an (inter)national in a metagame that is 4,5 years old.

Kudos to Salem, this is a very admirable accomplishment.

:phone:
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And the better blonde award goes to...
 
Grim Tuesday

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Salem, NickRiddle, quiksilver?

Anyway where is that post I used to have in my sig where someone says how all of MK's match-ups are inflated in favour of the other character because of how good everyone is against MK, the bias against him, etc...
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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Salem, who is I would say easily the benchmark for ZSS gameplay, has now beaten Otori, Dojo, Tyrant, and M2K twice. M2K and Salem are 2-2? The best ICs in the world, 9B, was knocked out by Anti and then Otori this tournament. Vinnie was knocked out by Dojo, who was then beaten by Salem. lol

ZSS loses the match-up, but it isn't -2 or -3.
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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Espy Rose said:
Is quicksilver honestly considered on the same level as Nick or Salem? :applejack:
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This is how I see it:

Quiksilver is the best ZSS in europe and one of the best players there, but frankly Europe has some work to do in general. They're very good players, and I don't think anyone would deny that, but pretty much all of them short of Mr. R got kind of exposed while they were in the US... Mr. R got 7th and the next-highest placement from Europe was Leon at 25th. Europe can be great, but like the US last year, they'll need to practice a lot and figure out what to improve before Apex '14.

I want to stress how cool i think quik is and that I mean no offense by any of this (this isn't like, an INTERNET CALL-OUT) but I think that while he's a top 3 ZSS, Salem and NR are a fair bit better at the moment.
 
Espy Rose

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I don't think anyone is honestly going to hold it against you.
Also, when I said 2 ZSS mains, I meant in relation to the US, not on a national level. :applejack:
 
ぱみゅ

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Espy Rose said:
Is quicksilver honestly considered on the same level as Nick or Salem?
:applejack:
Click to expand...
Salem beat Nick Riddle at APEX'12.
Quik beat Salem a couple weeks ago.
Do the math :awesome:

Espy Rose said:
Also, when I said 2 ZSS mains, I meant in relation to the US, not on a national level. :applejack:
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Excuse me but... wut?
Isn't US a nation, so national=US?
 
Tesh

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ZSS is probably legitimately better than Marth/Pika/Wario. Marth did finally accomplish something today, but Salem beat the 3 best Marths on the planet.
 
Z'zgashi

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Id say top tier should go like:
S: :metaknight:
A: :popo: :olimar: :diddy: :snake:
B: :falco: :zerosuitsamus: :marth: :pikachu2: :wario:

And maybe drop Wario down to the top of the next tier.
 
Maharba the Mystic

Maharba the Mystic

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im not salty pit didn't do anything. i never actually expect him too.

however, give m2k until the next time he plays salem and just like every other character he's ever been bodied by he'll hit the lab and **** him with metaknight. tale as old as time. although props to salem, he is godlike, and lucky.

however, zss is still a gimmick.

in between pika and wario at best
 
Supermodel From Paris

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TBH I'm feeling like ICs are getting a little stale and predictable. Like, yes the CGs and desyncs are strong but when everyone knows what you want the entire set people are going to eventually learn to deal with it, and they are. ICs didn't do very well at Apex and the best ICs players in the world were there and in good form.

I actually said this a few a months ago when ICs first started really picking up, and I still think it's true.
 
Espy Rose

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Supermodel From Paris said:
TBH I'm feeling like ICs are getting a little stale and predictable. Like, yes the CGs and desyncs are strong but when everyone knows what you want the entire set people are going to eventually learn to deal with it, and they are. ICs didn't do very well at Apex and the best ICs players in the world were there and in good form.

I actually said this a few a months ago when ICs first started really picking up, and I still think it's true.
Click to expand...
People finally started to learn the match up instead of just camping.
There's a surprisingly large amount of crap characters can get away with when they finally stop and realize, "Hey, why am I not punishing this, or that?"

Same thing'll happen to Zero Suit if people really care about winning. :applejack:
 
Iota

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At best, I'd put ZSS above Snake/Falco (6th). At worst, one spot below Pika. No matter what she should be top tier. Salem has proved that ZSS is a great character.

SFP's avi killed me. :happysheep:
 
BSP

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Supermodel From Paris said:
TBH I'm feeling like ICs are getting a little stale and predictable. Like, yes the CGs and desyncs are strong but when everyone knows what you want the entire set people are going to eventually learn to deal with it, and they are. ICs didn't do very well at Apex and the best ICs players in the world were there and in good form.

I actually said this a few a months ago when ICs first started really picking up, and I still think it's true.
Click to expand...
Do you think Oli/Diddy/Snake/X is/are better than them?
 
-LzR-

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Espy Rose said:
People finally started to learn the match up instead of just camping.
There's a surprisingly large amount of crap characters can get away with when they finally stop and realize, "Hey, why am I not punishing this, or that?"

Same thing'll happen to Zero Suit if people really care about winning. :applejack:
Click to expand...
This. I believe ICs are beaten by smart aggression instead of camping. Camping just gives them more time to land the grab and you barely get any chances to separate them and kill Nana.
 
F

Feels

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I don't get the "IC's didn't do well at Apex" mentality. 3 good Ice Climbers juuuuust outside of Top 8 is a better showing than most characters.

:phone:
 
RaptorTEC

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ZSS is already a good character. She isn't good enough to pass all those other characters in front of her though, maybe 1. No need to go crazy and say she's top tier lol

:phone:
 
SaveMeJebus

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Didst has also been doing well against MK. I would have been cool to see how ADHD would have done against the MKs

:phone:
 
Naridax

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Supermodel From Paris said:
Look up until now the rule has been that if a character wins Apex, they get to be #2 for a while. I'm just asking that ZSS receive the same courtesy.
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Falco didn't become #2 after APEX 2010.

And MK didn't become #2 after APEX 2012. ;D

Falco (and MK) didn't even move at all! I only ask that ZSS receive the same courtesy.

Also, Olimar never won APEX. ;)
 
Yobolight

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IMO

S: :metaknight:
A: :olimar: :popo: :diddy:
B: :snake: :falco: :zerosuitsamus: :marth: :pikachu2:
Other: :wario:


To the ZSS Haters:
Salem beat top MK: Otori, Dojo, and M2K (x2). Both M2K and Otori have tons of experience annihilating others ZSS's.

In addition Salem beat Mikeneko who is the best Marth in the World, on top of Mikehaze.
 
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