Official Brawl+ Discussion

[CT Chia]

i used to call it melee 2.0, but then i realized what were doing is not making brawl into melee, but were just simply making brawl more competitive. hence the name, Brawl+

 

[Makkun]

i used to call it melee 2.0, but then i realized what were doing is not making brawl into melee, but were just simply making brawl more competitive. hence the name, Brawl+

Precisely. I'm not even sure we will even use extra hitstun. Like I've said before, WE AREN'T TRYING TO TURN BRAWL INTO MELEE - If Brawl has a set hitstun, I think it should stay as it is, or the game may COMPLETELY change. As it stands now, Brawl+ with S/L-canceling and Wavedashing is simply a slightly more fast paced and competitive version of Brawl, which makes for smarter and faster decision-making. No longer can one simply camp or turtle throughout an entire match.

 

[Eight 52]

If you compare Smash 64 and Brawl together, they really aren't that different from one another.

Once you get caught in a rapid hit move in Brawl (Ex: Fox's dair) you get traped in it until the move is done. Same goes for Smash 64. Kirby's dair works practically the same way. IMO Brawl isn't different from Smash 64. And if they add hit stun I hope it become like Smash 64. At least it'll be more fun to play and there can actually be true combos in Brawl. Insted of air dodging until I get back on stage.

Back to topic: It's kinda funny how people are trying to make Brawl like Melee. It's like trying to turn an antheist into a believer.

64s hit stun was ridiculous. That uniform a response time actually sounds good, the only concern i'd have with that is something like Snake's attacks in the works or something.

 

[Someone7]

I personally don't even think a hitstun hack is necessary at this point. The three codes (no tripping, L-canceling, and wavedashing) already make the game feel more like a perfect blend to me. Altering hitstun could have effects that are too drastic (like S-canceling). It would probably give MetaKnight 0-death abilities. The good thing about the current hacks is that they help out a lot of the low tiers, and of the high tiers, only Snake and DDD seem to really benefit from L-canceling.

I disagree, because it'll be a big transition for a lot of people.

Not only that, but many ATs both major and minor, character-specific or not, will become useless, despite all the effort we put into finding, creating, perfecting, and implementing them.

This isn't true, as far as I can tell. In fact, all the old useful ATs seem to work fine. You can even do interesting stuff like DACUS out of a wavedash, which is impressive to see with characters like Link.

 

[MBlaze]

Yeah maybe we should leave hit stun alone because infinites would be easier to do, MK would... omg lol... Anyway I guess we could try that other plan up there about early responses but yeah, I think we're nearly ready to launch this since the hacks have been cleaned up and bugs taken out.

 

[5ive]

Stop talking about hitstun. It should and will be left alone.

 

[E For Eugene]

hitstun ftw

 

[SoraOwnsAll]

I say it should be called Brawlee, but I still don't like the idea behind it. Why couldn't you guys just leave it as it is? I know you miss Wavedashing and L canceling, but did you seriously have to hack Brawl to get them?

 

[plasmatorture]

I say it should be called Brawlee, but I still don't like the idea behind it. Why couldn't you guys just leave it as it is? I know you miss Wavedashing and L canceling, but did you seriously have to hack Brawl to get them?

Why do you care? It doesn't affect you in any way.
Brawlee is a terrible name: phoenetically it makes no sense and it goes against the spirit of the hacks since creating a Frankenstein's monster out of Brawl and Melee's mechanics is not the goal at whatsoever.

Personally I'd be interested in trying out a hitstun mod, lower gravity, etc. to see what it would be like to have Melee's physics in Brawl, but I doubt it'd make a good balanced game and I think Brawl+ looks like it will.

 

[SoraOwnsAll]

Why do you care? It doesn't affect you in any way.
Brawlee is a terrible name: phoenetically it makes no sense and it goes against the spirit of the hacks since creating a Frankenstein's monster out of Brawl and Melee's mechanics is not the goal at whatsoever.

Personally I'd be interested in trying out a hitstun mod, lower gravity, etc. to see what it would be like to have Melee's physics in Brawl, but I doubt it'd make a good balanced game and I think Brawl+ looks like it will.

Brawlee = Brawl + Melee put together, which is what you are essentially doing. It's better then Melee 2.0 and Brawl + IMO.

And I care because it might kill the normal Brawl competitive scene, since most hardcore Brawl players will most likely switch to Brawlee/Brawl + in the near future.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Wavedash Timing

Question.

I have heard that the timing for the wavedash is a bit quicker than Melee, but when I "do" a wavedash I just slide forward a small distance while shielding. Every once in a while I'll get a good wavedash, but I am definitely not consistent. What is the proper timing for the wavedash? Or is it maybe something else I am doing wrong?

 

[kupo15]

Precisely. I'm not even sure we will even use extra hitstun. Like I've said before, WE AREN'T TRYING TO TURN BRAWL INTO MELEE - If Brawl has a set hitstun, I think it should stay as it is, or the game may COMPLETELY change. As it stands now, Brawl+ with S/L-canceling and Wavedashing is simply a slightly more fast paced and competitive version of Brawl, which makes for smarter and faster decision-making. No longer can one simply camp or turtle throughout an entire match.

If you arent trying to turn brawl into melee and only making it more competitive (which I agree) why get rid of hitstun and still include wavedashing?

Hitstun makes things more competitive and has been a key role in not just all the smash series, but in ALL fighting games. The same cannot be said for wavedashing since it is a melee specific AT and by including WDing, you are essentially trying to turn Brawl into melee. 64 did just fine without it, I dont see why its such a necessity. Wavedashing doesnt make combos, hitstun does and that is what makes the game more competitive.

(FYI: Not a melee hater. Loved everything about it)

And I care because it might kill the normal Brawl competitive scene, since most hardcore Brawl players will most likely switch to Brawlee/Brawl + in the near future.

Yea, its cool that you can win money from Brawl+ now in addition to the regular ones.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

hitstun doesn't make things more competitive, it just adds depth to an opening. what it does add, however, is enjoyment. the rush one gets from landing multiple well timed hits is just such a great feeling. this is why brawl is so dull. it's not that it can't be competitive or lacks a competitive edge, it's just that the metagame is so boring.

 

[kupo15]

i dont see how hitstun is not competitive. So the thought of one mistake that leads to a loss of stock is less competitive than doing a whole bunch of spacing work with wavedashing for one maybe two hits before the match is neutral?

You can be excellent at spacing yourself but if your not good with combos, how can you be compete competitively at a high level?

Regardless, we both agree that hitstun is needed to add enjoyment and greater rewards and depth that brawl severally lacks so thats cool

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i never said hitstun ISN'T competitive, it just doesn't add competitiveness. combos are essentially a very strong success at breaking through your opponents defense- in brawl when you 'break through', you are given 1 (sometimes 2, and in the instance of characters with chain grabs, lots more) hit, then you must retreat. in a game with combos, its the same basic concept of hit and retreat, but you are given multiple hits, which is fun to watch and fun to perform, but the ultimately, the whole combo is just one large attack. it's just for visual effect. the smash brothers (melee and n64) franchise is unique in that characters are given much more maneuverability, combos can be mixed up and kept fresh and new... and even lead to the finishing blow.

brawl does not have this. combos do not lead to a finish blow. you basically deal damage, and wait around for them to screw up so you can kill them.

 

[kupo15]

It still makes no sense. How does it not and wavedashing does? Unless you are saying that wavedashing helps with spacing so you both compete for the opening to launch your reward? If thats the case, you could just do that w/o wavedashing. 64 managed w/o WDing.

But then again, if there is no reward, why compete? But we both agree on this so nothing to say about that.

If I misread and if my post reflected what you said, Im sorry. I guess Im too tired to think straight. ttyl

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i do not agree wavedashing makes this more competitive. in fact, i don't agree with saying this version of brawl is more competitive at all. i just find it more fun, and this is what's most important to me and should be the most important aspect for anyone whos play this GAME.

i wanted the melee air dodge not because its more competitive, not because of the wavedash, but because it gives opportunity to **** people up when they're in the air.. (ike can do dthrow->upB!) in the other smash brothers, when someone gets launched into the air, they fear for getting attacked again.. in brawl, you get tossed across the scene at 150%.. oh no big deal.. what can they do to me?? i'll just DI back and air dodge.

do you not know the joy of playing kirby and bairing someone off the edge in smash n64? do you not know the joy of throwing someone.. and actually follow up with something? we should be rewarded for landing blows. not punished for approaching. i could care less about tournaments. however, if this lead to people taking this mode of brawl more seriously, more power to them, but honestly people would cry and moan about this too much.

i only care about enjoyment, and that's all this should be for.

combos = fun
following up with awesome strings of attacks = super fun

 

[SAMaine]

First of all... I refuse to call this thing Brawl Plus as that implies that is is better than Brawl, which it is not. I shall thusly call this Game Sharked version Brawlee, as it is a mix between the two. I believe a hack like this will make the Smash Bros community even more of a laughingstock among fighting game circles. I feel sorry for anyone who just can't accept Brawl or stick to Melee.

 

[Wind Owl]

... Sorry, but what's the point of this topic again?

 

[j.rob]

I personaly think all of this is one the greatest achievements in smashtory.

 

[Sylentwind]

do i need twilight hack?

 

[WoodyWiggins]

This is awesome. Instead of thinkin' of these hacks as an attempt to create "Melee 2.0", think of it as a MUCH needed kick in the rear for competitive and casual gaming. I do think a hitstun hack should be implemented as well. Not for the sake of Melee 2.0, but simply for the game. Brawl would be much more enjoyable if it had some type of visible hitstun. However, Brawl pro's and Melee haters have become attached to a pure unadulterated Brawl, and the slightest hack sends them up a wall. So any changes to Brawl's gameplay would send it directly to the Melee 2.0 category. I recognize that a hacked Brawl is not Melee. However when you have Brawl and Melee haters quickly rejecting the progress of Brawl and it's hacks, Brawl with it's hacks implemented, creates a new scene. Brawl+ is, if not already, going to create it's own special Tourney scene. Yes, I'm calling it, Brawl+ Tournaments. I'm not to sure how chracter mods are progressing, however if you could mod your main (favorite character), and somehow bring that character to tourneys, you know how awesome that would be? Maybe Sakurai had this planned all along. Giving us a bland Smash Brothers that we can modify. So when it comes time to make Smash Brothers 4, he'll know exactly what features to include.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

So many 'join date 2008' members who think we're trying to steal their glory.

Think about it before you post something like 'you are just making Brawl into Melee'.

People modify their stock cars - people add-on to their WoW interface - people wear clothes for heavens sake...we're not trying to stop you or your friends playing Brawl as Nintendo released it, simply have an alternate version that veteran competitive players can flick on for ****s and giggles, or if they see fit competition.

Sylentwind - you'll need Twilight Hack to install Homebrew. From there on you use Homebrew channel to load homebrews from an 'apps' folder on your SD card. Alternatively use the Homebrew Browser if you're online with your Wii.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

So many 'join date 2008' members who think we're trying to steal their glory.

Think about it before you post something like 'you are just making Brawl into Melee'.

People modify their stock cars - people add-on to their WoW interface - people wear clothes for heavens sake...we're not trying to stop you or your friends playing Brawl as Nintendo released it, simply have an alternate version that veteran competitive players can flick on for ****s and giggles, or if they see fit competition.

QFT

amen!

 

[Makkun]

I am now warming up to the idea of hitstun. My original reason for not wanting it was to try and preserve Brawl physics, but it really would make the game much more competitive. Even with wavedashing for spacing yourself more easily, Brawl is still a game about trading hits one after another, which is just plain stupid.

 

[Mith_]

I'm all for it.

I've never played Melee until months after brawls release, and I enjoyed it. I of course like Brawl better but this seems like a nice change of pace.

 

[J_RUM]

In my opinion this is awesome, it speeds brawl up ALOT.


But I think S-canceling is too easy, and the input for L-cancel is awkward but I'm trying to get used it.


Brawl+ FTW.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

melee 2.0 is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on Smash boards....and I've seen my own posts.

People are so in love with wavedashing and L-canceling, they rather use that as a subtype then consider the possibilities of actually attempting a somewhat balanced metagame.

Brawl "Plus" will obviously be a minority play for a decent amount of time and has the potential to catch on sadly.
If it catches on Brawl + will more than likely just completely eradicate the melee seen, which is fine considering it would be melee "2.0".

Brawl "plus" will probably see tournament play in various areas, but I highly doubt there will be any large tournaments using primarily that sub-type of play, if your lucky it might be a side event at a huge tournament.


Brawl + is fail because it looks on adding gimmicks instead of actually improving gameplay in the idea of balancing out aspects of Brawl.
Mods/hacks could benefit Brawl more than what the playerbase is just hoping for right now (melee 2.0).

Had the melee 2.0 gimmicks been added on, or if they were added on to a Brawl modified for the sake of a diverse balanced metagame, Brawl + could catch on like wild fire in a competitive scene.

This is my opinion however, and do not take it as a factual statement.

 

[Kal]

Brawl is such an awful game, I'd say any attempt to turn it into something worth playing is a good idea. The Brawl hacks sound like a good idea.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Brawl is such an awful game, I'd say any attempt to turn it into something worth playing is a good idea. The Brawl hacks sound like a good idea.

Brawl + currently is simply turning melee features into brawl gimmicks.

If Brawl + was focused on balancing anything...like....removing CG's....
It might kick *** >.>

 

[Makkun]

melee 2.0 is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on Smash boards....and I've seen my own posts.

People are so in love with wavedashing and L-canceling, they rather use that as a subtype then consider the possibilities of actually attempting a somewhat balanced metagame.

Brawl "Plus" will obviously be a minority play for a decent amount of time and has the potential to catch on sadly.
If it catches on Brawl + will more than likely just completely eradicate the melee seen, which is fine considering it would be melee "2.0".

Brawl "plus" will probably see tournament play in various areas, but I highly doubt there will be any large tournaments using primarily that sub-type of play, if your lucky it might be a side event at a huge tournament.


Brawl + is fail because it looks on adding gimmicks instead of actually improving gameplay in the idea of balancing out aspects of Brawl.
Mods/hacks could benefit Brawl more than what the playerbase is just hoping for right now (melee 2.0).

Had the melee 2.0 gimmicks been added on, or if they were added on to a Brawl modified for the sake of a diverse balanced metagame, Brawl + could catch on like wild fire in a competitive scene.

This is my opinion however, and do not take it as a factual statement.

We don't need you to tell us this, it has been said dozens of times. Nobody cares if you think Brawl+ is a group of people who should just go play Melee. Also, how would YOU go about improving the metagame without adding more universal techniques?

And the fact that you use "fail" as an adjective only angers me further.

Edit: By the way, nobody involved in Brawl+ wants to see Melee 2.0. That's why we are making Brawl+. I don't know how many times I need to explain this.

And how does removing CGs make for a better metagame? In my opinion the game needs MORE chaingrabs. Not exactly simple infinites, that's broken, but more like chaingrabs that take skill and prediction to use efficiently, such as tech chasing. Guess what severely helps with this. Wavedashing.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

melee 2.0 is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on Smash boards....and I've seen my own posts.

People are so in love with wavedashing and L-canceling, they rather use that as a subtype then consider the possibilities of actually attempting a somewhat balanced metagame.

Brawl "Plus" will obviously be a minority play for a decent amount of time and has the potential to catch on sadly.
If it catches on Brawl + will more than likely just completely eradicate the melee seen, which is fine considering it would be melee "2.0".

Brawl "plus" will probably see tournament play in various areas, but I highly doubt there will be any large tournaments using primarily that sub-type of play, if your lucky it might be a side event at a huge tournament.


Brawl + is fail because it looks on adding gimmicks instead of actually improving gameplay in the idea of balancing out aspects of Brawl.
Mods/hacks could benefit Brawl more than what the playerbase is just hoping for right now (melee 2.0).

Had the melee 2.0 gimmicks been added on, or if they were added on to a Brawl modified for the sake of a diverse balanced metagame, Brawl + could catch on like wild fire in a competitive scene.

This is my opinion however, and do not take it as a factual statement.

Your pro'lly playing Brawl+ right now. Totally different from Brawl huh? It's different from Melee too. With that said Brawl+ is more or less it's own unique game. Brawl tournies will remain unaffected and Melee tournies will remain unaffected. I just can't wait play as Metal Sonic, in Brawl+ of course.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

We don't need you to tell us this, it has been said dozens of times. Nobody cares if you think Brawl+ is a group of people who should just go play Melee. Also, how would YOU go about improving the metagame without adding more universal techniques?

And the fact that you use "fail" as an adjective only angers me further.

Edit: By the way, nobody involved in Brawl+ wants to see Melee 2.0. That's why we are making Brawl+. I don't know how many times I need to explain this.

And how does removing CGs make for a better metagame? In my opinion the game needs MORE chaingrabs. Not exactly simple infinites, that's broken, but more like chaingrabs that take skill and prediction to use efficiently, such as tech chasing. Guess what severely helps with this. Wavedashing.

If Brawl+ was melee 2.0, it would be better to come out with it and state thats all it is then to hide it's true intent under the rug.

I was all on board the modded brawl community until this terrible idea of Brawl +.
What do I mean by terrible, the L-canceling the Wavedashing, the idea that those make Brawl more balanced.

Universal techniques won't balance out brawl.


Let me give you a quickly made up analogy for what universal techs do.

Take 2 human beings.

1 is large, slow, and falls to the ground very fast due to being a heavy person.

Now let me give you someone who is small, fast, and falls to the ground at a slower speed due to having less weight.

Well the fast person can hit the Slow with better easy because he is fast and a small target.
The large person being slow cannot react as fast, and if the fast person is hitting him, he cannot get a hit in.

So we add something to BOTH of them.

We give them both a gun.

You know who's still at the advantage? The Small fast person.
He's still a small target, and hes fast making it easier to aim on him, as well to his reflex's being better he is more likely to pull the trigger before the large person does.


Brawl can only be moderately balanced by looking at individual aspects, universal techs would due little but cause an effect of who can use those tech's better,the people who can't use them better, sometimes can't use them better because they are so good already.

Unless you want to speed up the game so much that everyone attacks at the same speed and hits at the same strength.

Also you want MORE chaingrabs?
....
...
...>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<
WUT.
Chaingrabs are degenerate, they don't prosper a game at all, quite simply a chain grab has you grab someone, and if you can do it properly that person is screwed.
This is far to much, the risk is simply to small for the reward you can get.

If many people had CG's we get into a huge grab fest where it's grab someone until 40% and your CG no longer works >.>


Look at the grab speeds.
If Marth fails a grab it's less problematic for him then if Link fails a grab.


Chain grabs don't benefit the game....the only benefit they have right now is a weak balancing effect between some characters, an easy example of this is Yoshi vs MK.



Brawl mods has a lot of potential, but look at where the focus is.
L-canceling, Wavedashing.


blah.
I could make a stronger,structured post but eh.


I don't think people should go play Melee if they can modify Brawl into their new Melee.

Why would you go to an inferior product (melee) when you can replicate the things you enjoyed about that inferior product and replicate it in brawl for a superior result?

Tell me a benefit more CG's would have on the meta.

 

[Makkun]

First of all, large things fall at the same rate as small things. Weight has nothing to do with velocity, that would be air resistance. Second, your example is flawed because it isn't about who can get the attack out first, it's who has the least lag AFTER the attack is out. In regular Brawl, MK has almost no lag, therefor he can rapidly use his aerials. In regular Brawl, Dedede has heavy lag, and therefor tends to only be able to use ONE aerial in a combo whereas MK can just keep going and going. If we eliminate that lag through a universal technique (S-canceling), laggy characters such as Dedede and Ganon now have the same lag (none) as MK. So while MK may have faster attacks and Dedede has slower attacks, Dedede can now use his aerials at the same rate as MK. Now, this may seem broken as Dedede's aerials are obviously a lot STRONGER than MK's, which is why they were given lag in the first place, but MK has so many other advantages, it evens out. Not to mention, as you said, the smaller, faster target is harder to hit... well we've compensated for that with being able to "spam" strong aerials with large hitboxes.

Now the game is balanced to...
1) The small, fast character is still small, fast, and hard to hit.
2) The large, slow character now has a chance of hitting his or her target.

Now, the benefits of CG's may be a stretch... but if you notice, I did not say there should be CG's that are easy to perform, such as DDD or Falco's d-throws. Snake's d-throw CG requires one to predict exactly where his opponent is going to roll to, so then the CG reverts back to a simple game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, which is the basic fundamental of probably EVERY fighting game ever created.

While I think that easy 0-40%+ CG's are REALLY stupid because of their simplicity, I would like to see other hard-to-perform CG's. In Brawl's current condition, combos are VERY hard to perform. Think of a CG as a combo. It's the same principle... predict your opponent and react accordingly.

To return to the debate about small, hard to hit characters... Think of Fox in Melee. L-canceling and wavedashing gave him insane methods of traveling across the stage and around his opponent. Now, while that may have made him arguably the best and most broken character in Melee, this isn't the same for Brawl. We have already concluded the MK does not get any significant boosts from S/L-canceling and wavedashing. He is sort of at a limit that didn't exist in Melee. While keeping MK at that limit, and yet bringing up every other character, the game becomes more balanced.

Or at least it seems so, for the time being.


Edit: If you were to argue that the game IS about who can get the attack out first, which is why faster characters tend to dominate, you must remember that Brawl has insane defensive methods that may or may not override that logic. I believe this is one major reason why DDD is top tier in regular Brawl.

 

[JacobWins]

Why are people complaining about something SO good?

 

[infernovia]

I am actually more for power shielding. Why stick with melee mechanics?

 

[Makkun]

I am actually more for power shielding. Why stick with melee mechanics?

I would LOVE to see it work out. It would be (imo) the most dynamic and complex of aspects in all of Smash brothers. Sort of reminds me of 2D fighters with Special meters or Soul Calibur's Soul Gauge. It's like something that you really need to think about and rationalize, it adds a LOT of depth in theory. I hope it works out.

 

[unwelc0med]

Just stick with Brawl+...but hey, that's just my two cents *shrugs*

i thought you hated brawl so much you broke the disc? Quick to judge are we?


ironically, i've been playing melee a whole lot more now >.>

 

[Makkun]

i thought you hated brawl so much you broke the disc? Quick to judge are we?


ironically, i've been playing melee a whole lot more now >.>

Kinda funny. I set up my GCN next to my computer so I could play Melee while waiting for things to happen while I'm doing whatever on my computer. This was during my 3-month break from Brawl.

Yeah, turns out the day I set up my GCN to play Melee, I check Smashboards to see if anything new has happened... lolz wavedash code posted earlier that day. AND HERE I AM... AGAIN.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

First of all, large things fall at the same rate as small things. Weight has nothing to do with velocity, that would be air resistance. Second, your example is flawed because it isn't about who can get the attack out first, it's who has the least lag AFTER the attack is out. In regular Brawl, MK has almost no lag, therefor he can rapidly use his aerials. In regular Brawl, Dedede has heavy lag, and therefor tends to only be able to use ONE aerial in a combo whereas MK can just keep going and going. If we eliminate that lag through a universal technique (S-canceling), laggy characters such as Dedede and Ganon now have the same lag (none) as MK. So while MK may have faster attacks and Dedede has slower attacks, Dedede can now use his aerials at the same rate as MK. Now, this may seem broken as Dedede's aerials are obviously a lot STRONGER than MK's, which is why they were given lag in the first place, but MK has so many other advantages, it evens out. Not to mention, as you said, the smaller, faster target is harder to hit... well we've compensated for that with being able to "spam" strong aerials with large hitboxes.

Now the game is balanced to...
1) The small, fast character is still small, fast, and hard to hit.
2) The large, slow character now has a chance of hitting his or her target.

Now, the benefits of CG's may be a stretch... but if you notice, I did not say there should be CG's that are easy to perform, such as DDD or Falco's d-throws. Snake's d-throw CG requires one to predict exactly where his opponent is going to roll to, so then the CG reverts back to a simple game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, which is the basic fundamental of probably EVERY fighting game ever created.

While I think that easy 0-40%+ CG's are REALLY stupid because of their simplicity, I would like to see other hard-to-perform CG's. In Brawl's current condition, combos are VERY hard to perform. Think of a CG as a combo. It's the same principle... predict your opponent and react accordingly.

To return to the debate about small, hard to hit characters... Think of Fox in Melee. L-canceling and wavedashing gave him insane methods of traveling across the stage and around his opponent. Now, while that may have made him arguably the best and most broken character in Melee, this isn't the same for Brawl. We have already concluded the MK does not get any significant boosts from S/L-canceling and wavedashing. He is sort of at a limit that didn't exist in Melee. While keeping MK at that limit, and yet bringing up every other character, the game becomes more balanced.

Or at least it seems so, for the time being.


Edit: If you were to argue that the game IS about who can get the attack out first, which is why faster characters tend to dominate, you must remember that Brawl has insane defensive methods that may or may not override that logic. I believe this is one major reason why DDD is top tier in regular Brawl.

Combo's have an end point that is not determined by damage.
You may be able to do a combo of F-air, N-air, D-air as long as they are under 30%, However you can't Go the length of a stage with that >.>

Grab release CG's for 1 will last....well until the end of the stage....problematic.

Also I don't know what fighting games you've been playing (I've played Soul Calibur...and a small..small amount of Tekken), Combo doesn't mean inescapable. Combo's are like a fast chain of attacks, maybe the first 2 parts are unescapable but for some the ending is.
As theres not really a "Ending" to CG's they are just not escapable which leads to this degenerate whatever crap.

Using DI/Smash DI to get out of moves shows much more skill than a CG does, as DI is quite dependent on reaction time, outside of Grab releases, a lot of the time you simply need to memorize timing and well your set.

While the fast characters benefit less from L-canceling, The faster characters don't hit as hard.
Just because they're small doesn't excuse much, every character has a move that hits someone small quite well , small characters can be hard to hit aerially and what not, but the size advantage isn't so great as to balance things out.

You may make brawl look more "Visually" appealing by having Combo's that make people go "ah...oooh" but that doesn't make the metagame itself better.
If you take 2 guitarists.
1 guy knows a Song consisting of 3 notes (A Chain Grab...Move,Grab,Throw) and there was another person who doesn't know Songs, but knows all the notes,can tune properly, and has proper finger dexterity, and can Make UP the songs who has more skill.

1 guy simply repeats the 3 notes he has learned, and is doing simple repetition.

The other person can think and add as needed to any song he wishes to make.

Who has more skill.
The guy who say down on the internet and read the 3 notes.

Or the guy who can make up songs for a situation.
If you don't get that analogy.
What takes more skill
Repeating a 3 chord song.
Or Making up a song and being able to make 1 up for the situation (eg Sad music at a sad time, joyous music at a happy time).


You choose B ya... thats right.

repetition isn't that great of a skill.

As such Tech Chasing > Cg's.
Spacing > Cg's
because those require you to think up with a situation, where CG's it's much more easy to simply use repetition and not actually incorporate anything other than the tech skill.


I'm not against having a Subtype of brawl made of mod's/hacks.
Im against the movement of calling melee 2.0 Brawl+...it's not making Brawl better...it's making Melee better. From my standpoint.


I said before anyways, Melee 2.0 (brawl+ >.>) could replace Melee entirely, which is not a bad thing, at that point it would be less of a subtype and more of it's own game, which is a revival of melee in a new engine.