Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

I am guessing that the very hilt spikes while the blade spikes only when it is sweeping the ground.

 

[powell651234]

Donkey Kong is a tier killer...

 

[Dynamism?]

Tourneys mean alot right now. If it were that brawl was completely and utterly different like from 64 to melee I would agree, however considering Sonic is one of the many severely underplayed characters for Sonic to be 21 when there are characters who are supposed to be better than him doing worse means he does have potential.

And no I am not including march I am referencing to only recentky where his ranking is 21. I think he did worse in the spring season in terms of ranking.


I have to disagree. Snake still has an advantge because his moves are similar to marth. When Sonic approaches its somewhat risky and if he fails he is forced to start over from the beginning.

yeah once Snake is in the air he is Sonic's ***** but snake's ground game is very strong. Its similar to playing Olimar except there is no way of depriving Snake of his weapons.

No. he has no approach method for Snake and each character that has been capable of harassing snake were either capable of camping snake (olimar) or approaching him very well (Falco).

Luigi has neither.

maybe tis cause those 30 snakes never faced TL and Pikachu. Its not like the pikachu user and TL user ran into that many Snakes in their matchups. let alone the fac tthat most snakes are not very good.

They aren't candidates for top because if you look at MK and Snake, they dont have the tournament ranking nor the gameplay for top tier. they are probably high tier though.

lol no
Do you have any idea how many severely underplayed characters there are? Sonic is bottom half but not one of the most underplayed. And Sonic may have better "tourney results/aka bs" than some characters he's worse than. It happens. Just because the ICs have horrible results doesn't mean they suck, or TLink for that matter. Use your head, there's more to this game than Sonics so far recorded tourney results that makes characters good.

The best thing you could do to find Sonics correct position on a tier would be to follow 1 player as Sonic and see how they match up against the best with another character as opposed to following 1 character and seeing how their "recently recorded results" match Sonics. Because the latter doesn't show anything for various reasons. You'll figure that out once you put some thought into it.

Sonic is a hit and run character, he is played best that way. So starting over is a good thing. Nothing is wrong with square one. Marth is a precision character without projectiles, Snakes moves are essentially the oposite of Marth when it comes to comparing large area covering attacks. Both are good match ups for Sonic, Snake a little more difficult but he is imobile enough that hit and run is a good option. Hit, pressure, run is the best option for any character against Snake because of his imobility and poor air game.

It's been known by many for a long time that Luigi does well against Snake. Camp and approach are good? B>Down B get through litterally every single maneuver Snake can do. And you say once Snake is in the air he's Sonics *****? Once anyone is in the air they are Luigis ***** and Snake in the air could be a stock lead for Luigi every time.

Most Snakes aren't good? Well duh, but I'm talking about the top Snakes in the world right now and the top Snakes there have been. Lets say there have been 30? How many Pikachus? 1? And yet that 1 Pika beats all of them and is one of the best in the world. Sure right now the players have a lot to do with it and the fact that Pikachu destroys Snake might have something to do with it but considering Pika does well against practically every character except Dedede and maybe a couple more, yeah he's a candidat. I thought this was common knowledge too. :\

The last 2 paragraphs of your quote actually make no sense. Well they make sense, but it's just the words forming sentences. The sentences are pretty much invalid, false or misinforming.

And the tourney ranking/game play thing? What is that? You mean the way that 1 Pika player has placed 1st in nearly everything since May beating out every Snake, MK etc? Or the way Pika has no combos other than Fair, Dthrow, usmash, uair, fair, fthrow, usmash, uair, uair, nair? Or how TLink is very underplayed yet the few good Tlinks match those Snakes records even when there are half as many Tlinks? Or how they can't finish people off with bomb, usmash or uair at any moment?

I don't get you... >_>

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Ignoring tournament results and judging based on what I've seen and experienced. This is how I would tier the characters

Top
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers

High
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Kirby
Lucario
Toon Link
Luigi
Wario
Wolf
Zelda
Pikachu

Mid
Sonic
Fox
Squirtle
Olimar
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Diddy Kong
Sheik
Pit
Samus
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ike
Link
Ivysaur

Low
Zero Suit Samus
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Captain Falcon

Bottom
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

 

[DanGR]

Olimar in mid. who you playin boy?

 

[Mmac]

ZSS, Charizard, Yoshi, and Peach as 7th, 6th, 5th, and 4th Worst?


MADNESS!

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

Personal opinion and all. I may be bias, yadda yadda... you can flame, just don't scorch.

Group up PT as one character. Playing each one individually is impossible.

Olimar, Pit, Bowser, and DK are way too low. IC, Mario, Samus, and Ness should be a bit lower. Peach and Zamus deserve to be up a little higher.

...and what is up with Sonic? Bottom of Middle tier, not the top. He's okay, but lot's of characters are "okayish" in brawl.

 

[BBQ°]

Ice Climbers will never be that high. It pretains to Melee also:
You can kill Nana.

DK needs to move up to high-middle tier.

Actually almost everyone in Middle tier is in the wrong place. Luigi and Zelda belong in Mid tier.

 

[gantrain05]

Personal opinion and all. I may be bias, yadda yadda... you can flame, just don't scorch.

Group up PT as one character. Playing each one individually is impossible.

Olimar, Bowser, and DK are way too low. IC, Mario, Samus, and Ness should be a bit lower. Peach and Zamus deserve to be up a little higher.

...and what is up with Sonic? Bottom of Middle tier, not the top. He's okay, but lot's of characters are "okayish" in brawl.

eh, i agree with u in alot of spots, except for ness, im a lucas/ness mainer, and honestly ness is just so much better than lucas imo, the only downside being that ness can be horribly gimped off stage, but its not much of a problem if you save your 2nd jump since his DI is pretty darn good.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Ice Climbers will never be that high. It pretains to Melee also:
You can kill Nana.

DK needs to move up to high-middle tier.

Actually almost everyone in Middle tier is in the wrong place. Luigi and Zelda belong in Mid tier.

Ice Climbers 0-death grabs and chain grabs. They only need to grab you once and you're done for. If it wasn't for being able to eliminate Nana, Ice Climbers could be in the top tier

Zelda and Luigi have too much potential to be stuck in mid tier. Zelda with her lightning kicks and Luigi with fire jump punch.

Donkey Kong's vertical recovery is god awful. That costs him a lot of lives. He's a big target that can't do much when the opponent is right ontop of him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Zelda and Luigi have too much potential to be stuck in mid tier. Zelda with her lightning kicks and Luigi with fire jump punch.

Yeah. Lots of people say that about their mains. The same can be said for Pikachu and Lucario and Toon Link and Olimar and Kirby and.....

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Yeah. Lots of people say that about their mains. The same can be said for Pikachu and Lucario and Toon Link and Olimar and Kirby and.....

None of those characters have a fast attack that kill at low percentage anywhere.

 

[Marth_Brawler_39]

Ignoring tournament results and judging based on what I've seen and experienced. This is how I would tier the characters

Top
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers

High
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Kirby
Lucario
Toon Link
Luigi
Wario
Wolf
Zelda
Pikachu

Mid
Sonic
Fox
Squirtle
Olimar
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Diddy Kong
Sheik
Pit
Samus
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ike
Link
Ivysaur

Low
Zero Suit Samus
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Captain Falcon

Bottom
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

no no no no

 

[BBQ°]

Ice Climbers 0-death grabs and chain grabs. They only need to grab you once and you're done for. If it wasn't for being able to eliminate Nana, Ice Climbers could be in the top tier

So exactly what made Ice Climbers middle tier in Melee? They had 0-death grabs and chain grabs too, but because you could kill Nana, IC's never made it to high tier.

Zelda and Luigi have too much potential to be stuck in mid tier. Zelda with her lightning kicks and Luigi with fire jump punch.

I have to agree with Zelda being good, but she doesn't have the qualities to be high tier. Her lightning kicks may be good, but along with her other aerials they are hard to land. This makes her aerial game almost useless if you are playing against someone that knows how to avoid Zelda's attacks. Most of Zelda's smash attacks can also be smash DI'd out of, making them even less useful.
Luigi does have some good things going for him too, but there are just other characters that are simply better than him.

Donkey Kong's vertical recovery is god awful. That costs him a lot of lives. He's a big target that can't do much when the opponent is right ontop of him.

I'm a DK main. DK will almost never go too low to the point where he can't grab the edge. His up-b has crazy priority and if you try to approach him, expect to get spiked. Seriously, you try to edgeguard DK.
If your opponent is right on top of you, his grounded up-b will swat away your opponent and it is not as punishable as people may think, it also has SUPER ARMOR. If your opponent is on top of you in the air, then you can do the same thing: up-b. It does lots of damage if you sweet spot it, or you could use it to escape because it has awesome priority.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

I'm a DK main. DK will almost never go too low to the point where he can't grab the edge. His up-b has crazy priority and if you try to approach him, expect to get spiked. Seriously, you try to edgeguard DK.
If your opponent is right on top of you, his grounded up-b will swat away your opponent and it is not as punishable as people may think, it also has SUPER ARMOR. If your opponent is on top of you in the air, then you can do the same thing: up-b. It does lots of damage if you sweet spot it, or you could use it to escape because it has awesome priority.

You make a good argument. I agree that I ranked him too low.

 

[Dabuz]

that tier list is PURE GARBAGE

 

[PrinceMarthX]

that tier list is PURE GARBAGE

Because Olimar isn't higher?

If you're curious why he's not higher it's because his recovery is very easy to gimp; Edge hogging is his worst enemy. Keep Olimar in the air and he can't pluck more Pikmin. His attacks can be unreliable if you don't know which color comes next and taking the time to see can cost you.

 

[Kiwikomix]

None of those characters have a fast attack that kill at low percentage anywhere.

Are you serious?
Kirby and Pikachu's fsmashes come out quickly and kill at low percentages. Olimar has pretty much no problem killing with a Blue Pikmin bthrow. Toonie takes a while to KO, I admit, but Lucario can kill at low percentages if he's at a high one.

 

[Dabuz]

no, i honestly like how you put olimar so low because i feel better using a character that i love, is underused and low or middle on a teir list

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Are you serious?
Kirby and Pikachu's fsmashes come out quickly and kill at low percentages. Olimar has pretty much no problem killing with a Blue Pikmin bthrow. Toonie takes a while to KO, I admit, but Lucario can kill at low percentages if he's at a high one.

100%+ is not low.

 

[Puffy]

Kirby defiantly isn't 9th best.

But still, better list than what I could ever make. :B

 

[Dabuz]

heres my quick tier list

the people johned about

mk
snake

high

game and watch
rob
ddd
wario
marth
wolf
diddy kong
fox
falco

upper middle

lucario
pit
oliman
peach
zelda
toon link
squirtle

middle

donkey kong
luigi
kirby
ness
lucas
pikapikaaaaa
zero suit samus
mario

lower middle

ivysaur
sheik
charizard
sonic

just bad

ike
yoshi
samus
ganondorf
jiggjigg
captain falcon
link


btw if you count zss and samus, zelda and sheik, and squirtle, ivysaur, and charizard all as one they are in order-middle, middle, higher middle

just a quick one with lots of mistakes i bet but im tired when writing this so excuse me

yeah, lets start talking bout MY LIST!

 

[PrinceMarthX]

There must be something I'm missing with Peach. Aside from tournament results, what does she have going for her?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Someone posted a question on my wall, and I figured my response was interesting, so I might as well post it here.

The question:

Umm...what do you think about Metaknight and how broken everyone sees him as? There's even some people considering him getting banned. I just wanted to ask you because you were totally right when you said one time: "Snake isn't that good".

There just seems to be no solid counter for Metaknight...I've been doing better against him recently, but it's still extremely uphill.

My response:

Yeah, Metaknight is an oddity for sure. At first I thought both him and Snake would go down from being "OMG crazy good" to being "Good, but definitely beatable." Snake has gone down for sure, and people are finally starting to see what I meant when I said that he wasn't that good at all. But Metaknight... has gotten better. He's broken for sure but not broken enough to ban. He doesn't have any bad matchups right now, and his worst matchups are even.

A few characters that, IMO, can go even with MK at high levels of play: MK, Snake, Diddy, DK, Bowser, Marth, G&W, Pikachu, Kirby, Falco, Wario, Lucario, Fox (?), Zelda (??), and Olimar (???).

More may pop up down the line, and I'm sure I missed a couple. But keep in mind that the list may seem large right now, but thats only if the people using those characters are extremely knowledgeable in the matchup against MK. Otherwise, they're screwed.

 

[Dotcom]

I'm sorry but your tier list my friend is mentally disabled.lol.
*RANT*You say Dabuz is upse because his character isn't higher than middle (even I could care less)

But look where you put Luigi, IMO! the only reason you have him that high is because that is your favorite char.

Zelda? are you kidding Zelda won't be even close to that high unless she finds some crazy technuique, that completely changes her metagame. Why not? because you gave two reasons(or one) that she places that high. Her Fair and her Bair automatically puts her that high? Why don't you take into account the fact that she has horrible matchups with a BIG part of the cast. Not to say this is only thing that limits her. Besides Bair and Fair (which any player with an above average... ok any player with an average logic will see coming from a MILE AWAY!) Zelda doesn't have any more moves that can kill until WAY higher than the Bair and Fair. Also do you not realize that if you don't sweetspot those moves they are nothing more than below average aerials?

Not going to go much into Luigi because he's not much but a tiny bit above average character. As a matter of fact Shoryuken has to be Sweet spotted too, or else you have so much lag that you will most likely get a Cahrged Smash coming at you, and depending on the matchup and percentage it'll kill you.

Want more reasona as to why your list is fail? Sure

Lol because i looked at your list completely just now and it's BAD!!! LOL.
Peach is bareley above bottom tier? FAIL!
Zamus under Samus?l FAIL!
Diddy Kong not even close to high? FAIL!
Pit AND Donkey Kong mid teir? FAIL!
Ganon under Falcon? FAIL!!!

there's more but i'm just going to give it a break for a while and let that marinate lol.

 

[DanGR]

Because Olimar isn't higher?

If you're curious why he's not higher it's because his recovery is very easy to gimp; Edge hogging is his worst enemy. Keep Olimar in the air and he can't pluck more Pikmin. His attacks can be unreliable if you don't know which color comes next and taking the time to see can cost you.

Wow.. this post loses

 

[ShadowLink84]

Do you know how extremely difficult it is to keep Olimar in the air?

 

[PrinceMarthX]

But look where you put Luigi, IMO! the only reason you have him that high is because that is your favorite char.

I don't main based on who I like the best, I main based on my fighting style and the potential I believe they have.

Luigi has a lot of things going for him: Neutral air kills around 120%, has a ton of priority and can interrupt your opponent while they try to juggle you; Forward smash kills at 80% when angled up and is no slower than most normal forward smashes; Fire jump punch is the ultimate punishing move. One little opening is all you need and bam, if their damage is above 50%, they're gone; His aerials are very quick with a lot of priority; He has several ways to get his opponent into the air. Despite hardly any one playing him in tournaments, he has the potential to be a bottom higher tier.

And you speak of fire jump punch needing to be sweet spotted. It's not like a normal sweet spot where you have to hit them at a precise spot. To sweetspot it, you simply have to close enough to where his arm is touching them. In other words, the character models only need to be overlapping a bit. It's very easy to hit as long as you have an opening. There are even several set ups to lead into it. A simple: jab, jab, fire punch will work every time as long as your opponent doesn't predict it and shield after the second jab.

Peach is bareley above bottom tier? FAIL!
Zamus under Samus?l FAIL!

I haven't seen anything that merits them being higher. And no, tournament results don't count. I really don't care if one person is capable of winning with them. That only tells me that he's a really good player.

 

[asob4]

i think i just loss faith in the majority of smashboards :/

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Do you know how extremely difficult it is to keep Olimar in the air?

Well for me, a Luigi user. Not difficult at all.

 

[Dabuz]

heres my quick tier list

the people johned about

mk
snake

high

game and watch
rob
ddd
wario
marth
wolf
diddy kong
fox
falco

upper middle

lucario
pit
oliman
peach
zelda
toon link
squirtle

middle

donkey kong
luigi
kirby
ness
lucas
pikapikaaaaa
zero suit samus
mario

lower middle

ivysaur
sheik
charizard
sonic

just bad

ike
yoshi
samus
ganondorf
jiggjigg
captain falcon
link


btw if you count zss and samus, zelda and sheik, and squirtle, ivysaur, and charizard all as one they are in order-middle, middle, higher middle

just a quick one with lots of mistakes i bet but im tired when writing this so excuse me

yeah, lets start talking bout MY LIST!

leave him alone! take me instead!

 

[Tenki]

Well for me, a Luigi user. Not difficult at all.

Do they airdodge? Whistle armor? N-air as you're rising?

Anyway, for Peach, she has amazing priority, and can maintain an awesome anti-ground pressure game with D-airs. Glidetoss approaches with turnips and such give her rather safe ground approaches/control and she can transition from air to ground moves pretty easily. Her sweetspotted U-smash kills pretty early too.

 

[NxC]

@ PrinceMarthX, you're defending your tier list too fiercely for how it was formed. That's what you've seen, and what you think. Unfortunately not everyone here thinks the same as you, and it's something you're going to have to deal with. If you go out there with no name in the community and no one else supporting your list, you're going to be under fire.

@ Everyone else, There's never going to be a tier list that everyone is going to agree on- let us be honest. We're going to gripe about our mains, our friend's mains, so on and so forth. Until the metagame of each character is discovered and played to Melee levels, we're not going to have a solid tier list. New techs are discovered on a neigh-daily basis, things that can change these lists up.

I know I'm going to sound completely hypocritical, but rather than posting full tier lists, explain your positioning- "Why is 'X' higher than 'Y' "? This may help other players who aren't as knowledgable about certain characters learn more about characters/matchups. Before I went to tournaments, I didn't know crap about 3/4 of the character roster- what strengths and weaknesses each character has, how they approach or play defensively- nothing. Looking at my first tier list, I was way off. I placed Ike at the bottom- Ike is solid if played correctly. I'm not just talking "Ike-mains" or anything, just a knowledgable Ike- he can do stuff, despite the remarks filled in this thread.

This isn't really just geared towards presumably low-tier characters- what about the high tiers? Is Snake really lower than MK? [don't comment on that example]

Just a suggestion- what if we spent a day with each character, all debating on the character's placement, one at a time. Make an empty tier list, and place characters accordingly in an organized fashion- Work from there. This won't catch on or get any attention, but I'm just throwing this out there.

 

[Dotcom]

You are speaking from a one charcter view and hat limits your thinking so much i sort of have sympathy for you.
DanGr and Skank are just too good lol.

Your points aern't even that valid. There are people that you put lower than Luigi who are WAYYYY better than he is.
Pit alone... his recovery >yours.
Combo abilty > yours
Projectiles> yours
Aerials > Yours
even Aerial Priority > Yours
Matchups >> Yours. LOL.
And that's just for one Character. I could do others or i could go into this one character vs Luigi more specifically but your logic doesn't warrant the unneccessary overload of logic. lol.

You sort of have kill moves going for you. But c'mon Shoryuken even YOU know( though you most likey won't admit) it's difficult to pull off. And still A fresh Bair from Pit kills at 100 +.

the only reason i'm not going to argue Olimar is because i don't want to seem fanboyish and when i make an argument i like too keep my reasonings logical.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

You are speaking from a one charcter view and hat limits your thinking so much i sort of have sympathy for you.

Not true. I play with all characters. I'm always open to switching mains if I feel I'm doing better with someone else. I'm not the type of person that's like I'm maining __ and that's that's that!

Aerials > Yours
even Aerial Priority > Yours

lol, no. Pit doesn't come close to matching Luigi in the air.

Combo abilty > yours

I don't think so. Pits attacks don't allow him to do what Luigi does.

And you try to do this Pit and Luigi comparision and overlook the biggest difference. Luigi kills so much easier than Pit. Pit's biggest weakness is that his attacks have poor knock back. In fact, Pit used to be my main a few months back but I got tired of his poor knock back attacks.

 

[NxC]

lol, no. Pit doesn't come close to matching Luigi in the air.

Spoiler

Not bringing this up because I'm a Pit main, but it is a factor...

Evidence? Supporting facts? It's the first step to sounding credible. Give examples of how "it's not even close".

I don't think so. Pits attacks don't allow him to do what Luigi does.

Enlighten us. What does "Luigi do"?

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol no
Do you have any idea how many severely underplayed characters there are? Sonic is bottom half but not one of the most underplayed. And Sonic may have better "tourney results/aka bs" than some characters he's worse than. It happens. Just because the ICs have horrible results doesn't mean they suck, or TLink for that matter. Use your head, there's more to this game than Sonics so far recorded tourney results that makes characters good.

Theory craft only goes so far. yes there are characters that should be higher but aren't due to being underplayed or, running into their bad matchups early.
Sonic is actually underplayed, the number of Sonic's that play in tournaments is very small. yeah in small pools they are more common, but in the tournaments that are equal to or greater than 16 sonic is one of those underplayed characters.

It may be possible that the reason Sonic is doing better than Sheik, Luigi (characters that are definitely better than him) is probably because his of dealing with more commonly used characters is better than the two.

l

The best thing you could do to find Sonics correct position on a tier would be to follow 1 player as Sonic and see how they match up against the best with another character as opposed to following 1 character and seeing how their "recently recorded results" match Sonics. Because the latter doesn't show anything for various reasons. You'll figure that out once you put some thought into it.

The hell?
you can make this same argument for anyone in C tier and lower.

Fact of the amtter is that in Spring he outperformed those othe characters and in summer season he is outperforming them again.

not only that the most recent events tend to be more accurate as they reflect the characters current metagame. So it tends to show a bit more accurately what is going on with that character.

l

Sonic is a hit and run character, he is played best that way. So starting over is a good thing.

Ugh I hate it when people try to discuss a character when they do not know.
sonic is NOT a hit and run. He may look it but he isn't, the most of his damage comes from chasing his opponent and pressuring.

Starting over for any character is bad. Since you start off on a neutral slate and have to work at approaching a character when previously you had the advantage.

if I am playing marth and have the advantage, why would I want t start over?
If I am forced to reset that means I have to again deal with Marth's physical wall before I can obtain that advantage.

If I start hitting and then running away, its only because i am baiting you so that when you come in , and make a mistake, I punish you and chase you off the stage. not poke at you then escape.

l
Nothing is wrong with square one. Marth is a precision character without projectiles, Snakes moves are essentially the opposite of Marth when it comes to comparing large area covering attacks. Both are good match ups for Sonic, Snake a little more difficult but he is immobile enough that hit and run is a good option. Hit, pressure, run is the best option for any character against Snake because of his immobility and poor air game.

Those are NOT good matchups.
In both matchups Sonic is at an advanage.
For one he has t deal with Snake's range and superior priority.
With Marth he is dealing with range, speed and priority.
It sucks to have to start out on square one. once you gain an advantage against those characters Sonic has to work hard to maintain it since if he has to start all over, its going to be difficult to get things started again.
so no he does not do well against Snake and Marth.
If it were that sonic could link to his kill moves, yes maybe it would be a good matchup, but the main issue is that all of his kills (save the Bair) cannot be linked into.

I would daresay snake is a better matchup for Sonic than marth, because marth can **** Sonic on ground and in the air and has faster attack speed to boot.
Meanwhile Snake only has a groundgame over him (a very effective one) but because his weaknesses are more easily exploited, the matchup is easier.

Its still a disadvantage for Sonic so its not a good matchup.

l

It's been known by many for a long time that Luigi does well against Snake. Camp and approach are good? B>Down B get through litterally every single maneuver Snake can do. And you say once Snake is in the air he's Sonics *****? Once anyone is in the air they are Luigis ***** and Snake in the air could be a stock lead for Luigi every time.

Unlike Sonic Luigi does not have the aerial speed.

Neutral B fails as a projectile. Its slow, has poor range and little to no versatility.

Down B fails as an approach against snake. He can easily tilt and clank the move. Lay down his claymores and C4.

Luigi has poor ground movement and poor aerial movement. Thats really bad against Snake because you do not want to give him any oppurtunity to lay C4.
Not only that he has his mortar slide which enables him to maintain spacing away from Luigi.

Even if they were effective thats only two means of approach that Luigi has, that means Snake doesn't have to worry about predicting what you may or may not do since he can use a strategy to counter it.

l
Most Snakes aren't good? Well duh, but I'm talking about the top Snakes in the world right now and the top Snakes there have been. Lets say there have been 30?

Two things.
1.Can you provide the data to prove such a thing? That they are all top snakes that are all extremely good?
2. Can you prove there are 30 top snakes?

l
How many Pikachus? 1? And yet that 1 Pika beats all of them and is one of the best in the world. Sure right now the players have a lot to do with it and the fact that Pikachu destroys Snake might have something to do with it but considering Pika does well against practically every character except Dedede and maybe a couple more, yeah he's a candidat. I thought this was common knowledge too. :\

here is why pikach is high tier not top tier.

MK, Snake and G&W all outdo him by a significant amount.
Not only that you also have their tourney rankings which exceed Pikachu's by a large amount. yeah Pikachu may do well against Snake and DDD, but just because he does well against other top tier characters doesn't mean he is top tier.

Zelda i melee had some good matchups against high tier characters, but she did poorly against mid and low tier. What happened? She became low tier. Weighed matchups FTW.

Considering that Mk and G&W and Snake have better overall matchups, and solid tourney standings to back this up, how in the heck would pikachu be capable of being a candidate if he has not at the very least, been capable of doing just as well as them tournament wise?

l

The last 2 paragraphs of your quote actually make no sense. Well they make sense, but it's just the words forming sentences. The sentences are pretty much invalid, false or misinforming.

1. It is highly unlikely that your one little Pikachu user is going to run into all 30 of the top playing Snakes and win consistently.Its even less likely that the 30 Snakes are all going to have similar playstyles and skill levels.

2. The reason those characters may not be doing very well, is because they may be running into bad matchups early in a tournament. So if Sonic runs into MK, it means he won't be able to face ganondorf in the final round and possibly win.

l
And the tourney ranking/game play thing? What is that? You mean the way that 1 Pika player has placed 1st in nearly everything since May beating out every Snake, MK etc?

1 pikachu player is one pikachu player.
Thats very bad.
it would be equivalent to Azen being the only Mario user and then winning 1st place in every single tournament he attends. Why? It skews the results. it falls onto it being the palyer's skill not the inherent advantages that the character may possess.

Or it can be due to how rarely those snake and MK users face Pikachu and Toon Link. if they aren't familiar with the matchup, they are more prone to lose.

or lets say that Pikachu and Tl do have an advantage over Snake, does this mean they wil be top tier? Of course not, as I mentioned earlier just because DK and Pikachu do well against Snake doesn't mean they are top tier. it just means they do well against those characters.

lOr how TLink is very underplayed yet the few good Tlinks match those Snakes records even when there are half as many Tlinks?

2 Snake (35 top8, 30 top4, 19 top2, 17 wins) - 813.0
13 Pikachu (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 103.5 - 16
26 Toon Link (7 top8, 1 top4, 1 win) - 21.3 - 25

Matching records?

maybe if you compare on a person by person basis but when you look at things holistically it really means nothing.

You have Snake beating TL's record by over 40x the amount of points.
You have him beating Pikachu by 8x the amount of points.

How does that even compare to Snake?
Not only that if they were top tier material, why is Pikachu in 13th place?

It can't be that pikachu is underplayed it must mean that in those tournaments snake is outperforming him.

13 Pikachu (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 103.5 - 16
Or how they can't finish people off with bomb, usmash or uair at any moment?

I don't get you... >_>[/QUOTE]

id on't get you either. you are saying so and so is top tier yet the matchups, gameplay and tourney rankings DO NOT support you.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Spoiler

Not bringing this up because I'm a Pit main, but it is a factor...

Evidence? Supporting facts? It's the first step to sounding credible. Give examples of how "it's not even close".

Back air doesn't have nearly the range Luigi's does
Neutral air isn't a good kill move like Luigi's. Luigi's also knocks them straight up which lets him keep his opponent in the air a lot easier. Pit's neutral air can also be DI out of
Down air doesn't last as long and has a small hit box, making it much harder to hit with
Up air can be DI out of
Forward air isn't nearly as fast as Luigi's

Pit's fall speed doesn't make him much of air comboer. He has multiple jumps but the time it takes to rise back up, the opponent is no longer in range.

All of Luigi's aerials flow into each other, making it very easy to hit multiple times. You can also strike so fast that immediately after their air dodge ends, they get hit. People don't say the air is Luigi's turf for nothing.

 

[Dotcom]

i had a wall of text going and it got deleted. x_x



9 Diddy Kong (16 top8, 6 top4, 7 top2, 2 wins) - 175.0
10 Donkey Kong (8 top8, 8 top4, 3 top2, 7 wins) - 159.9
15 Olimar (17 top8, 6 top4, 1 top2, 1 win) - 80.7
16 Pit (4 top8, 5 top4, 3 top2, 1 wins) - 77.7
17 Peach (8 top8, 4 top4, 2 top2, 3 wins) - 76.0
18 Zero Suit Samus (5 top8, 5 top4, 1 win) - 60.1





28 Zelda (6 top8, 1 top4, 1 top2) - 18.6
34 Samus (5 top8) - 11.4
36 Luigi (4 top8, 1 top2) - 8.7

Facts.

 

[Dynamism?]

1. The hell?
you can make this same argument for anyone in C tier and lower.

Fact of the amtter is that in Spring he outperformed those othe characters and in summer season he is outperforming them again.

not only that the most recent events tend to be more accurate as they reflect the characters current metagame. So it tends to show a bit more accurately what is going on with that character.



2. Ugh I hate it when people try to discuss a character when they do not know.
sonic is NOT a hit and run. He may look it but he isn't, the most of his damage comes from chasing his opponent and pressuring.

Starting over for any character is bad. Since you start off on a neutral slate and have to work at approaching a character when previously you had the advantage.

if I am playing marth and have the advantage, why would I want t start over?
If I am forced to reset that means I have to again deal with Marth's physical wall before I can obtain that advantage.

If I start hitting and then running away, its only because i am baiting you so that when you come in , and make a mistake, I punish you and chase you off the stage. not poke at you then escape.



Those are NOT good matchups.
In both matchups Sonic is at an advanage.
For one he has t deal with Snake's range and superior priority.
With Marth he is dealing with range, speed and priority.
It sucks to have to start out on square one. once you gain an advantage against those characters Sonic has to work hard to maintain it since if he has to start all over, its going to be difficult to get things started again.
so no he does not do well against Snake and Marth.
If it were that sonic could link to his kill moves, yes maybe it would be a good matchup, but the main issue is that all of his kills (save the Bair) cannot be linked into.

I would daresay snake is a better matchup for Sonic than marth, because marth can **** Sonic on ground and in the air and has faster attack speed to boot.
Meanwhile Snake only has a groundgame over him (a very effective one) but because his weaknesses are more easily exploited, the matchup is easier.

Its still a disadvantage for Sonic so its not a good matchup.

3.Unlike Sonic Luigi does not have the aerial speed.

Neutral B fails as a projectile. Its slow, has poor range and little to no versatility.

Down B fails as an approach against snake. He can easily tilt and clank the move. Lay down his claymores and C4.

Luigi has poor ground movement and poor aerial movement. Thats really bad against Snake because you do not want to give him any oppurtunity to lay C4.
Not only that he has his mortar slide which enables him to maintain spacing away from Luigi.

Even if they were effective thats only two means of approach that Luigi has, that means Snake doesn't have to worry about predicting what you may or may not do since he can use a strategy to counter it.


Two things.
1.Can you provide the data to prove such a thing? That they are all top snakes that are all extremely good?
2. Can you prove there are 30 top snakes?


4.here is why pikach is high tier not top tier.

MK, Snake and G&W all outdo him by a significant amount.
Not only that you also have their tourney rankings which exceed Pikachu's by a large amount. yeah Pikachu may do well against Snake and DDD, but just because he does well against other top tier characters doesn't mean he is top tier.

Zelda i melee had some good matchups against high tier characters, but she did poorly against mid and low tier. What happened? She became low tier. Weighed matchups FTW.

Considering that Mk and G&W and Snake have better overall matchups, and solid tourney standings to back this up, how in the heck would pikachu be capable of being a candidate if he has not at the very least, been capable of doing just as well as them tournament wise?



1. It is highly unlikely that your one little Pikachu user is going to run into all 30 of the top playing Snakes and win consistently.Its even less likely that the 30 Snakes are all going to have similar playstyles and skill levels.

2. The reason those characters may not be doing very well, is because they may be running into bad matchups early in a tournament. So if Sonic runs into MK, it means he won't be able to face ganondorf in the final round and possibly win.


1 pikachu player is one pikachu player.
Thats very bad.
it would be equivalent to Azen being the only Mario user and then winning 1st place in every single tournament he attends. Why? It skews the results. it falls onto it being the palyer's skill not the inherent advantages that the character may possess.

Or it can be due to how rarely those snake and MK users face Pikachu and Toon Link. if they aren't familiar with the matchup, they are more prone to lose.

or lets say that Pikachu and Tl do have an advantage over Snake, does this mean they wil be top tier? Of course not, as I mentioned earlier just because DK and Pikachu do well against Snake doesn't mean they are top tier. it just means they do well against those characters.



2 Snake (35 top8, 30 top4, 19 top2, 17 wins) - 813.0
13 Pikachu (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 103.5 - 16
26 Toon Link (7 top8, 1 top4, 1 win) - 21.3 - 25

Matching records?

maybe if you compare on a person by person basis but when you look at things holistically it really means nothing.

You have Snake beating TL's record by over 40x the amount of points.
You have him beating Pikachu by 8x the amount of points.

How does that even compare to Snake?
Not only that if they were top tier material, why is Pikachu in 13th place?

It can't be that pikachu is underplayed it must mean that in those tournaments snake is outperforming him.

13 Pikachu (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 103.5 - 16

id on't get you either. you are saying so and so is top tier yet the matchups, gameplay and tourney rankings DO NOT support you.

I don't know how to do that multiquote single quote thing so sorry if this is confusing lol

Maybe could you let me know how to multiquote 1 quote? That could help too. :D

1. Yes that applies to every character. That's the point, it's a balanced scale taking only the peak of that character. A very common example is Chu and the ICs. There was 1 of him, 1 ICs, he reached the peak with them to match the many MANY other players for the many other characters. Just because there is only 1 ICs doesn't mean the ICs aren't good. People recognized this and that's why the ICs were known to be good, even after 1 ICs, 1 player, reached that potential. And through Brawl, at this very moment, there is at least 1 good player with each individual character that have come closest to this "peak" with the given character. 20 melee Falcon, 1 melee ICs, Falcon isn't 20 times better than the ICs. Follow 1 player with each character. This is the only way to determine this tier just as it was the past tiers, facts* :D

2.Sonic is hit and run. Falcon was hit and run in melee yet he still needed to follow and had to pressure and chase. Starting over happens a LOT. It's the neutral state in the game and you must get an advantage from there. That's where the need to approach comes into play. It's the nature of the game.

Not only is returning to a neutral state bad when they get away from a disadvantage, but it's good when you get away from a disadvantage. Being at a distance is also one of Sonics more advantagous points because of his speed game in approaching.

If you are playing Marth and have the advantage, don't start over. If you're going to get punished, move away. Hit and run doesn't mean waiting for long periods. The hit and run involves the chase and the moment between the hit, the run to avoid the counter attack or not miss a dodging opponent then hitting again is only a split second. Sonic is hit and run, his speed is his greatest asset and used accordingly that is what his speed is for.

To get through Marths "wall" and Marth to catch you in the small distance that is his "wall" is both the reason Sonic uses the hit and run inside then outside the wall to avoid is swipes for the advantage...and also the reason Marth tries to stop Sonic in the wall to get his own advantage. In and out, hit and run, back and forth with advantage and disadvantage. And ultimately Sonic can hold the say in when you get the "advantage" because his speed to get from a distance to inside is the tool that will beat the Marth.

Sonic not having a reliable kill move is his weakness, yes.

3.C4, motor slide etc will not stop Luigi. A neutral B will stop him from sliding, he can do so out of range from his tilts and it might not be versitile but Snake isn't one that's going to jump over. Luigis attacks (almost all of them) come out so quick that if Snake tries Snake dashing he'll get down smashed into the air (if there is no fireball) and nearly everything has knocks into the air which is exactly where Snake is bad and Luigi thrives. The only thing that keeps Snake in this match up at all is his tilts. Really, Luigi can nearly camp Snake. :O

Trading hits with Snake is never good so an aerial approach isn't best and Down B will trade with a tilt if the Snake is ready. A simple fireball will make Snake shield or at least screw Snakes chances of evading a Down B every time (unless Snakes missles through it which would in turn give Luigi significant time to aerial approach even at his speed or Snake can roll/jump away which will set up an easy move for Luigi to get Snake in the air anyways). If Snake gets below Luigi, utilt destroys him but an SideB will give Luigi plenty of room to land. Even a timed dair or nair will actually trade with utilt and that can pull Snake into the air in itself. And DownB upon landing works wonders to get to and away from Snake. Luigi can take Snake into the air easily enough and once Snake is in the air it's a ton of damage or a stock. Luigi is also one of the few that can kill Snake regularly at very low % and has everything in his moveset to set the various finishers up.

no I wont provide that lol

4.

Dedede is considered THE only true Pikachu counter. Pika does not have the advantage there, that's possibly the only significantly difficult match up for him. Bair, utilt and grabs... >_>
How do Snake, G&W and MK out do him by a significant amount? Whatever, that's not even a statement or anything that has anything to do with something being in their favor lol

Pikachu has matchups that go hand in hand with MK and G&W as the best overall match ups in the game. Dedede is close but against him, then even with about a half a dozen that include characters like Zelda and G&W, then advantages over everone from big guys to spacies.

You say "just as well tournement wise" like it's the only thing that matters. Do you not see the flaw in this? I don't think I need to explain but I'll just give the little speal that has debunked the whole concept a thousand times already.

There are many very good MKs and very good Snakes. Each win 1 major tourney and continue to do so. Then there are the other Snakes and MKs you say are "not very good" and those surely place somewhere in the upper part of tourneys occasionally. Then all of the sudden some good players with other characters begin to emerge, only a few with each. They start behind and fall further behind because there are so many of those big 2.

So if all of those Snakes are in tourneys, shouldn't Snake be highly ranked in that tourney list thingy you keep referring to? It wouldn't make sense for 1 Ness to get more points than 30 Snakes. I makes sense this way but doesn't even create accurate data...unless you devide the nuber of players by the number of the other. Even better would be to take the Ness players that placed on that chart to get points and take that same number of players from the best of the Snakes on the and devide that by the number of tourneys that were ranked on the list that each went to.

Get it yet? I kind of doubt it, nvm if you don't. No biggy. Many people follow this religiously anyway. :\

A person by person basis means nothing? So you take the top 20 melee Fox and the top 20 melee ICs and it means something but the top 5 ICs (the ones that have come even close to his peak) and the top 5 Fox (if you can narrow it down that much) then it will mean nothing?
The only accurate way is through the peak players. This is fact, a tier list is the best of the character not the average of the masses using said character.

Pikachu in 13th place actually means something to you? Hopefully that was just a little thing you threw in for fun. That means about as much as "Snakes bair has landing lag" in terms of making the character worse than they are.

As for that last 3 statement phrase you made...
His match ups overall are actually possibly the best in the game including more one sided match ups in his favor than anyone else and very few against him.

His gameplay has been developped only by few and he has great room to grow being so underused by great players.

Just because there are few does not mean the character is worse, even if tourney rankings are bad. Even if there are only a few good Pikachus and you say it's the player winning, couldn't you say the same about Snakes and how there are simple more great players using Snake? (because there are obviously more than almost everyone) Yes. And some Snakes aren't very good but in the masses of them they still do alright, couldn't you say the same about the not so good Pikas? (there may be fewer but they still place occasionally just like any others bad players as much as the Snakes) Yes.

So a good Pika will get first everywhere they go and a good Snake will get first everywhere they go. Why is Pikachu considered barely high tier when this is the case. Is it simply because more Snakes exist so the tourney ranking results change the game so Snake is better? Or is it because almost everyone has seen what Snake can do and the Pikachus are a little harder to find?
Maybe that's why those who have seen Pika at his "current peak" understand why he matches the likes of Snakes at what is currently their "peak".

But I haven't seen either. Just MKs at the "peak" because they overrun the area. And they've told me the stories of the Pikas and Snakes (along with the various others) at the "peak" and what they are capable of.


Edit: lol
protoman, no offense but that's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. I would've much prefered a wall of text lol