Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Gindler]

Doesn't yoshi counter MK? That's been floating around to some degree recently.

Link's recovery isn't that bad either, when I play him I'll usually have a bomb that helps me out, bombs can even save you from destructive hits that would usually screw you (Ike's Fsmash for instance) because the bomb slows down the knockback.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Doesn't yoshi counter MK? That's been floating around to some degree recently.

Mmac thinks so. Slight disadvantage for Yoshi imo.

 

[DanGR]

My problem with Sheik is I've been using her a bit out of late to get a feel for her, and her recovery and lack of kill moves is severely beginning to be a problem.
Ya I know "but ur not pro!" stuff like that is seen by everybody though.

Unless you're considered by many to be good with the character, personal experience has NO influence whatsoever on that character's tier placement. Tiers revolve around the current metagame and nothing else.

 

[Dynamism?]

God Tier = Random
****erz!
lol

I'm out for a while. I've become lazy and don't care what the decision is because the tier list I have in mind has been the same since April lol. I don't think it'll change any time soon either. Peace out, you got this Mmac, you got this!

And yeah I'll PM you about that tourney final match that we still need to do lol

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Doesn't yoshi counter MK? That's been floating around to some degree recently.

He's about as close of a counter as MK has, which means it can be argued a slight advantage either way. I'd go with even, personally.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Unless you're considered by many to be good with the character, personal experience has NO influence whatsoever on that character's tier placement. Tiers revolve around the current metagame and nothing else.

I was always under impression that tiers resolved around overall potential in comparison to the rest of the roster.

That Captain Falcon is poor because his lack of priority among other things limits him in comparison to the rest of the cast where the majority has priority and other things that make them overall better than him.

If tiers were just based on metagame they would move too much or hypothetically they could move a lot.

 

[Mmac]

Mmac thinks so. Slight disadvantage for Yoshi imo.

I'm going with Zinc and say that Yoshi and MetaKnight is pretty much borderline even, Which is about as close as a Counter right now as you can get on him. He plays a very solid defencive game, and has tons of options on release to gather up damage and/or Kills (He has even more flexibility on Non-Platform Heavy Stages).


Oh yeah, that Infinite on Snake I was talking about Yesterday, is not really an infinite because it kills him too easily. It can still be, if the Snake is really, REALLY good at C4'ing, But it will still most likely kill him, and at the end, isn't that what really matters?

 

[DanGR]

I was always under impression that tiers resolved around overall potential in comparison to the rest of the roster.

That Captain Falcon is poor because his lack of priority among other things limits him in comparison to the rest of the cast where the majority has priority and other things that make them overall better than him.

If tiers were just based on metagame they would move too much or hypothetically they could move a lot.

You're exactly right. The metagame is comprised of the best players of each character. Legan, Deva, and Izaw represent Link's current metagame. They have proven that he can be a viable tourney character. They have proven he can be good in the right hands. What determines how much potential he has is how good they have been doing in comparison with everyone else and their characters. (This is where matchups play their role in tier lists)

Potential can be determined by how good the character can be in the right hands, but it's all too subjective to consider in tier lists. People use the word potential too loosely. Potentially, Jigglypuff can be the best character in melee. Amiright? Here's the catch. You just have to have Azen's prediction and mindreading skills and Ken's mindgames.

As of now, tiers move around too much to have one tier list that relfects brawl's characters. That's why this whole thread is pointless right now. >_>

 

[cutter]

I actually kind of like the idea of showing the gap between G&W-Snake and the rest of the cast. In tournaments there's a clear difference. G&W and Snake are the only characters ever directly compared to MK in how good they are (all though the conclusion always goes in MK's favore, no other character is even brought for juxtaposition)

Yeah; that's why I put Snake and G&W in their own tier for one reason. IMO they are the two best characters at beating MK.

@ A2ZOMG: Yeah now that I think about it, DDD is above Marth.

 

[Chaco]

In addition to all the Yoshi hype I would like to add that he pretty positively has the only Brawl wave dash, I founds it. =DD

So Yoshi is like Michael Phelps now.

 

[Gindler]

He's about as close of a counter as MK has, which means it can be argued a slight advantage either way. I'd go with even, personally.

Awesome, and people still think yoshi's horrible and refuse to use him? mind boggling

In addition to all the Yoshi hype I would like to add that he pretty positively has the only Brawl wave dash, I founds it. =DD

So Yoshi is like Michael Phelps now.

Is Michael Phelps the new Chuck Norris?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I know you can't stand the fact that someone might have a different opinion than you, but you don't have to call me names

That has nothing to do with it. It's common knowledge that Marth and Sheik are better than Falco.

The last tier list for Melee had Falco above Marth and Sheik.

The last tier list is outdated, and the majority of people now believe that Sheik and Marth are both better than Falco. They place higher and they have better matchups.

Which is more BS, because the last Melee tier list had Fox and Falco in Top and Marth, Sheik, and Peach in high. Falco is not significantly better than Marth, Sheik, and Peach.

At the time people believed he was, because they overestimated the potential of his lasers and Shine combos. But people got better at dealing with lasers (the Marth boards even have a thread on it), and people learned to DI out of Shine combos. Falco is still an amazing character, but he didn't live up to the hype that was placed on him when they made that list.

You can never come up with an exact order of the characters. Even if in a year from now everyone still thinks Meta Knight is the best character, and maybe he is, we still don't know who the 15th best character is. How would you possibly determin that?

Theoretically the characters don't have an exact ordering, but rather a pattern of orderings. Given the average distribution of characters in a tournament, the characters will have a statistical probability of winning (a tier list). When that distribution of characters changes (the winning characrter's counter becomes more common to combat the winning character, and so on), then the probabilities of each character winning would change. So logically, you'd have a different tier ordering. But it will most likely be a gradual change, and each tier list would be able to cover a certain metagame. So technically, each metagame would have a potentially different tier list, but each metagame's tier list would indeed have an exact ranking of characters. That's what we're trying to do now.

Let's just say that it's decided that Donkey Kong is the 15th best character. That would mean that there are 14 characters who are undisputedly better than DK and 22 characters who are undisputedly worse than him. How could you possibly determine that?

Tournament results, Character matchups, the weight of said character matchups (how often they have to fight in a bad matchup), ect.

And then there's the rock, paper, scissors rule. Let's say A has the advantage against B, B has the advantage against C, and C has the advantage against A. But A, B, C, all do equally well against D through Z. So how do you determine what order A, B, and C should go in? All you can do is say that they're the best characters. You could rank them as A>B>C, and then change it in a year to B>C>A because you got bored of looking at the old list. That's basically what keeps happening to the Melee tier list. "Hey, let's put Falco above Marth and Sheik for shock value because we're bored of the current tier list."

If they have a rock paper scissors relationship (Fox>Sheik>Marth>Fox), then you'd look at their other matchups and compare them. Matchups against characters that are more common would hold more weight than those who are less common, and eventually you'd be able to give each character a "score" for any given character seeding at a tournament. The seeding used could be the current metagame's average seeding (how many of each character do you see at a tournament on average.)

It is definately possible to give the characters an exact ranking for each metagame, just extremely difficult. It becomes more difficult when you factor in personal bias and player skill (which can be minimized but not completely eliminated.)

 

[Chaco]

Awesome, and people still think yoshi's horrible and refuse to use him? mind boggling



Is Michael Phelps the new Chuck Norris?

No but Michale Phelps set world records for Gold, Yoshi wants gold, he craves gooold.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Awesome, and people still think yoshi's horrible and refuse to use him? mind boggling

Well, being a slight counter to Meta Knight doesn't make up the fact that he doesn't do well against the majority of the cast.

 

[Chaco]

Well, being a slight counter to Meta Knight doesn't make up the fact that he doesn't do well against the majority of the cast.

Apparently you only read select posts. Alright let's break it down here, Yoshi can easily compete with the most whored out characters. He can easily kills Snake and MK with a CG. I just discovered a wave dash for him ,think of how that could drastically change match ups if used correctly? Seriously, slow to fast, moving circles around people...I mean it's a limitless concept here. He holds his own with almost the whole cast, all of his match ups are in the 6:4 area. With his worst being at 7:3 to Lucario. And a good Yoshi knows his match ups and will do what's needed to come out on top.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol, King Dedede is clearly better than Marth.

His grabbing game is much better, and he's a lot better at edgeguarding. He's slightly better at KOing too IMO, but both have a pretty hard time directly scoring KOs.

Woah define clearly better.

All that DDD really has is a grab game and a projectile Not much.

marth has overall better range, attack speed, and he can KO via tipper at early percents.

His matchups are overall better as well so DDD isn't clearly better. If anything he is probably lesser.

 

[Gindler]

Yoshi does have some pretty good matchups...sure he doesn't have one where he utterly destroys the opponent (well maybe olimar he's a pikmin killing machine) but he only has like 2 that're 3:7 (link and lucario, some odd characters that I rarely see) while the rest are all basically even matchups. IDK, I'd fight with yoshi even if it was a sure loss and probably still only get one stocked that's how good yoshi is.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Apparently you only read select posts. Alright let's break it down here, Yoshi can easily compete with the most whored out characters. He can easily kills Snake and MK with a CG. I just discovered a wave dash for him ,think of how that could drastically change match ups if used correctly? Seriously, slow to fast, moving circles around people...I mean it's a limitless concept here. He holds his own with almost the whole cast, all of his match ups are in the 6:4 area. With his worst being at 7:3 to Lucario. And a good Yoshi knows his match ups and will do what's needed to come out on top.

Yoshi is certainly improving but you blow it way out of the proportion. Even with a CG, Yoshi does not easily kill Snake. Yoshi's kill moves are sub par while Snake's kill moves are excellent (too good if you ask me) and Yoshi stinks at camping while Snake excels at it. Yoshi certainly doesn't easily kill Meta Knight either or else people wouldn't think he's a slight counter, he would be a full fledge counter that Meta Knights feared and that's not the case.

I must say you Yoshi mains are good at making Yoshi sound a lot better than he actually is. By how highly you speak of him, he would be top mid or bottom high tier. When the fact is Yoshi is struggling to get out of top low.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Prince where did they state that? To my knowledge no competent yoshi mainer has made such a statement.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Woah define clearly better.

All that DDD really has is a grab game and a projectile Not much.

Better recovery, thus waaaaaaaay better ledgeguarding. Way better range. More in terms of safe kill moves. Way better grab range. Does not have a blindspot at the ledge or below him.

DDD's only real weakness he has that Marth doesn't have is being easily comboed due to being big and a fast faller. Also to lesser importance having some more landing lag on aerials. Both however are pretty lousy at actually scoring KOs.

marth has overall better range, attack speed, and he can KO via tipper at early percents.

Whoa, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone say SOMEONE had better range than DDD. The ONLY time that ever happens is when Ike uses his F-air. Also DDD's attack speed is a lot better than you're giving it credit for. His U-air, N-air, B-air, and D-air all come out pretty fast. His F-air comes out a bit slower, but it is so big and powerful that barely matters. Tilts have really gay range and come out pretty much no slower than Marth's tilts.

DDD's U-tilt also comes out nice and fast. It's fairly safe, has a great hitbox, and it's a much better kill move than anything Marth has. D-tilt is also a better kill move than what Marth has when undiminished.

Marth's tippered Smashes and stuff are all EXTREMELY situational. Largely because it's not easy to hit with, and also because these attacks are easily punished on block.

His matchups are overall better as well so DDD isn't clearly better. If anything he is probably lesser.

Nah, that's not accurate. Marth has fewer matches that are unbalanced. He doesn't usually get outright ***** by anyone, which is good, but he rarely ever has a significant advantage on anyone. DDD however has very significant advantages on a lot of the cast, while only having just a few noticably bad matchups.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I'm going with Zinc and say that Yoshi and MetaKnight is pretty much borderline even, Which is about as close as a Counter right now as you can get on him. He plays a very solid defencive game, and has tons of options on release to gather up damage and/or Kills (He has even more flexibility on Non-Platform Heavy Stages).


Oh yeah, that Infinite on Snake I was talking about Yesterday, is not really an infinite because it kills him too easily. It can still be, if the Snake is really, REALLY good at C4'ing, But it will still most likely kill him, and at the end, isn't that what really matters?

For every tier you raise Yoshi by yourself, I will give you a cookie.

I must say you Yoshi mains are good at making Yoshi sound a lot better than he actually is. By how highly you speak of him, he would be top mid or bottom high tier. When the fact is Yoshi is struggling to get out of top low.

Who's saying he's high tier? The Yoshi's have been arguing for him in mid, which, if you think he's top low, isn't all the much of a stretch.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Better recovery, thus waaaaaaaay better ledgeguarding. Way better range. More in terms of safe kill moves. Way better grab range. Does not have a blindspot at the ledge or below him.

DDDs ledgeguarding is not that much better than Marths. All Marth has to do is hit you with one tipped fair from off the stage and you're pretty much done. And Marth has plenty of safe kill moves. Fair, Bair, Uair, Nair, Uptilt, and Upsmash

Whoa, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone say SOMEONE had better range than DDD

Marth May not have more range, but Marth's attacks come out significantly faster while still being disjointed.

Also DDD's attack speed is a lot better than you're giving it credit for. His U-air, N-air, B-air, and D-air all come out pretty fast.

His nair has little range, and his U-air and Dair are easily DI'd out of. Bair is amazing though.

His F-air comes out a bit slower, but it is so big and powerful that barely matters.

It's not a bit slower, it's a lot slower.

DDD's U-tilt also comes out nice and fast. It's fairly safe, has a great hitbox

I'll give you that.

and it's a much better kill move than anything Marth has.

Marth's upsmash and f-smash are definately better kill moves.

D-tilt is also a better kill move than what Marth has when undiminished.

Just no.

Marth's tippered Smashes and stuff are all EXTREMELY situational. Largely because it's not easy to hit with, and also because these attacks are easily punished on block.

Actually, tippered up smash is rediculously easy to hit with because it sucks you into the sweetspot. And F-smash is dificult to react to and is great for outranging or outspeeding attacks. They're far from "Extremely situational"

Nah, that's not accurate. Marth has fewer matches that are unbalanced. He doesn't usually get outright ***** by anyone.

He only has 1 bad matchup! And it's only a slight disadvantage!

which is good, but he rarely ever has a significant advantage on anyone.

And? Sheik had more **** matchups than Fox, but who turned out to be the better character?

DDD however has very significant advantages on a lot of the cast, while only having just a few noticably bad matchups.

But Marth also does better against the Sacred 7 than DDD does, if you really want to put weight on matchups.

 

[bigman40]

Loool. Misquoting and assuming things FTL. Seriously, if you haven't done the work that we have, why are you refuting things that we've discussed before? No one said that he's that high (most agree about mid of mid). Please look at all the facts before you decide to make a statement on a single piece of the debate.

On-topic: Yoshi is top of low with the way he's coming. Sure, the tournament results aren't exceling as fast, but it's increasing. Also, Yoshi is probably the closest one to countering metaknight. All this , "this ____ goes evenish" when it's still like 6:4 meta's way -.- Please don't stretch the meanign of even.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi is certainly improving but you blow it way out of the proportion. Even with a CG to an 0% Kill in most circumstances , Yoshi does not easily kill Snake.

Fix'd. Also, Eggs are a Great Anti-Grenade, and the Missile is slow as hell. He outkills him normally (Duh, It's Solid ****ing Snake!), but does he have a 0% Kill on him? I though so....

People are still treating him like he was when Brawl first game out. Yoshi is improving, and he is improving alot despite the fact he's probably the most unpopular character in the game.

Plus he did ok against Snake even without those.

Also, Here's what I feel are Yoshi's Bad Matchup's:

40:60
-DK
-Dedede
-ROB
-Toon Link
-Wolf

35:65
-Zelda
-Marth
-Link

30:70
-Mr. Game & Watch
-Lucario

There, he only has about 5 Hard Counters, and only 5 others that does well against him. This isn't Biased crap either. We look into what the character can do to use, how we can prevent it and what we can do to him.

Before he was just an average and underrated character somewhere along the lines of Mario, Luigi, Fox, Sonic (Who is also underrated), ZSS, Ect.

Now, he's slowly and surely becoming a juggernaut. He's getting way more technical, becoming way more reliable, and starting to completely break other characters altogether (Falco and Snake deserved it, but.... Poor Ganondorf.... I mean, does he REALLY need 0% Kills on him?)

I dunno, but I can almost guarantee that in a couple of months, he's going to be up there around Olimar, Diddy, and Pikachu in the rankings.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

dunno, but I can almost guarantee that in a couple of months, he's going to be up there around Olimar, Diddy, and Pikachu in the rankings.

Bold claim.

 

[cj.Shark]

In addition to all the Yoshi hype I would like to add that he pretty positively has the only Brawl wave dash, I founds it. =DD

So Yoshi is like Michael Phelps now.

proof that Yoshi mains are ignorant. Pit has had a wavedash since april.

 

[Mmac]

proof that Yoshi mains are ignorant. Pit has had a wavedash since april.

No, that's a Wingdash. It doesn't act the same like a Wavedash though. Plus it's less practical because it "Warns" people that he's doing it.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Also, Yoshi is probably the closest one to countering metaknight. All this , "this ____ goes evenish" when it's still like 6:4 meta's way -.- Please don't stretch the meanign of even.

Evenish, as we have been using it, mean "Some say it's 60-40 MK, some say 55-45 MK, some perfectly even, and some even think that Yoshi has a slight advantage. Personally, I think it's even.

Evenish means it's near even, if not even. Against MK, I don't think anyone can be argued to have more than a 55/45 advantage on him, so I think going evenish with MK is pretty **** good for Yoshi.

proof that Yoshi mains are ignorant. Pit has had a wavedash since april.

Yoshi has a wavedash.
Pit has something that looks a lot like a wavedash.

 

[Kiwikomix]

proof that Yoshi mains are ignorant. Pit has had a wavedash since april.

Proof that people are willing to condemn everyone who plays a character because of one mistake.

@ Yoshi guys: I hate to be the buzzkill around here, but I honestly don't think Yoshi will rise up THAT high. The close-to-even MK matchup probably helps him a lot more at this stage than his various ATs, which at this point kind of seem like novelties. No point in being over-optimistic, I'd rather be a realist.

 

[MrEh]

proof that Yoshi mains are ignorant. Pit has had a wavedash since april.

Yoshi's wavedash actually functions well. Pit's, on the other hand, has less uses.

Plus, Yoshi comes in candy colors, which immediately makes him cooler then nearly the entire cast of the game.

 

[bigman40]

proof that Yoshi mains are ignorant. Pit has had a wavedash since april.

Not as practical as Yoshi's. Stop claiming random things. You have to give a fair warning before using it am I right (I have not seen it used before, but I haven't been hearing anything good about it)? With Yoshi's, you can do it at anytime, and it's pretty much instant.

Evenish, as we have been using it, mean "Some say it's 60-40 MK, some say 55-45 MK, some perfectly even, and some even think that Yoshi has a slight advantage. Personally, I think it's even.

Evenish means it's near even, if not even. Against MK, I don't think anyone can be argued to have more than a 55/45 advantage on him, so I think going evenish with MK is pretty **** good for Yoshi.

True, but it's screws up the meaning of it. isn't a soft counter 6:4?, a hard counter 7:3?, and even(ish) 5:5(5.5:4.5)? It's not clear when someone says something that isn't correct.
And I find it kinda ironic that the most rediculed character in the game can contend (and nearly counter) the higher tiered characters.

Proof that people are willing to condemn everyone who plays a character because of one mistake.

@ Yoshi guys: I hate to be the buzzkill around here, but I honestly don't think Yoshi will rise up THAT high. The close-to-even MK matchup probably helps him a lot more at this stage than his various ATs, which at this point kind of seem like novelties. No point in being over-optimistic, I'd rather be a realist.

You are correct sir. I still can't see Yoshi hitting high tier. Despite all the new things for him, mid of mid seems perfect for his spot, or(acting biaist ) high of mid tier. The AT's that yoshi requires intense practice, as well as odd practical uses, as they are quite tough to use without being punished, or taking high risks.

 

[cj.Shark]

No, that's a Wingdash. It doesn't act the same like a Wavedash though. Plus it's less practical because it "Warns" people that he's doing it.

Angelic step. also wingdash does not warn at ll It is Lagless to do and comes out quick and it cancels projectiles and gives semi invinicibility in the few starting frames.

 

[MrEh]

You are correct sir. I still can't see Yoshi hitting high tier.

Yoshi is far too cool to be in low tier. Hell, he has too many good matchups for him not to be at least mid tier. He's kind of like Bowser and Luigi. They're wicked cool, but no one uses them.

 

[Mmac]

I thought it had like a "Ching" Sound just like a standard UpB though. I think thats more than enough for a warning...

Never heard of Angelic Step though...


He's Mid Tier... for now.....

 

[cj.Shark]

Proof that people are willing to condemn everyone who plays a character because of one mistake.

@ Yoshi guys: I hate to be the buzzkill around here, but I honestly don't think Yoshi will rise up THAT high. The close-to-even MK matchup probably helps him a lot more at this stage than his various ATs, which at this point kind of seem like novelties. No point in being over-optimistic, I'd rather be a realist.

no Its not just 1 mistake. ive seen it confused many many times. I dont blame them i mean I wouldnt like to do research every time i make a post. and whats so good about having a wavedash anyway? and isnt chaining pivots a wavedash? how about reverse pivots? GlideToss?

and Yoshi mains im sorry. i like to read about other characters and it doesnt help that 70% of the posts here are by you guys. If Yoshi is really as good as You say and if You really want everyone to believe that then its a show me dont tell me type of thing.
and finally a characters Metagame does not have any significance on the tierlist but rather character matchups. sure You can say A [Yoshi] with a mxed metagame can easily beat a Good metaknight player. but at the same time for it to be a fair match that Metaknights Metagame would have to be maxed too. You cant theorycraft a matchup by what you think your character is Possible of can you?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Lol at Yoshi mains calling Pit's wavedash worthless while Yoshi's is somehow amazing.
Though I didn't know that Angelic step had invincibility frames. That's pretty cool. It also pushes people back on startup (not talking to cj.Shark as I'm sure he knows all about that anyway.)

And just out of curiousity, can someone go into detail on this 0% kill Yoshi has on Snake and Metaknight? I just really want to know.

 

[MrEh]

And just out of curiousity, can someone go into detail on this 0% kill Yoshi has on Snake and Metaknight? I just really want to know.

Metaknight's isn't a 0% kill if I remember correctly, but it still kills at low percents.

For Metaknight, Yoshi has to chaingrab him to the end of the stage. If Yoshi positions himself perfectly on the ledge, he can run off the ledge and spike Metaknight before he regains control of his DI.

As for Snake, it's about chaingrabbing him and eating him out of his Cypher.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Can't Snake just cypher father away from the stage? Or let go of his cypher and grab the ledge instead of going up?

 

[cj.Shark]

I thought it had like a "Ching" Sound just like a standard UpB though. I think thats more than enough for a warning...

Never heard of Angelic Step though...


He's Mid Tier... for now.....

OBJECTION!
The ChinG sound comes out to make pit move similiar to a airdodge in melee.
-> presents Video On melee wavedashing.
-> turns sound up. Dont You see? Lots of characters make Grunting Noises while wavedashing. despite this this was still wildly sucessful and hardly gave any warning at all!.
the airdodge is done right after a jump Just Like a wingdash is performed. They are both done In the Middle of a sequence. How can the Ching warn you If THEY ARE ALREADY IN THE PROCESS OF DOING IT????

 

[Dark Sonic]

By the time you hear the Ching it's already too late. You can't react to it, you have to predict it.