Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Embrio]

I'll make this short and accurate, Marth>everyone. Close thread.

 

[YoshiBomb]

After really thinking about I am happy that people that Yoshi is so Bad that means less people play him

 

[Sophos]

I want to look more into it, but Pikachu could become higher tier this time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

that is correct... but I mean.. videos aren't anything to go off of. I don't mind hoards of n00bs posting quite as much if they have at least played the game for you know... maybe a week at least.

I don't just watch videos. I go through the entire freaking site of Smashboards and suck out every last bit of relevant information I can find. Fair enough?

And nobody seems to be paying attention to this but me. If your tier list has G&W anywhere under high tier, it's wrong, because he's really ****ing good in Brawl.

Also Ganondorf and Captain Falcon for now are horrible. They have the least overall variety in their movesets.

 

[Sophos]

I don't just watch videos. I go through the entire freaking site of Smashboards and suck out every last bit of relevant information I can find. Fair enough?

And nobody seems to be paying attention to this but me. If your tier list has G&W anywhere under high tier, it's wrong, because he's really ****ing good in Brawl.

Also Ganondorf and Captain Falcon for now are horrible. They have the least overall variety in their movesets.

I know, it really pisses me off, too. I was a C. Falcon main in Melee, now I have to change. ****.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

or you could just play a bad character... I'm still a sonic main and he sux...

 

[Blue sHell]

Also its good to note that these characters have placed well in tournaments thusfar. This isn't saying TOO much because many people don't have access to the game to practice throughly yet, but still:

Metaknight
Peach
Pikachu
Snake
Zelda
ZZS

As of now, these have been common heads of tournaments on the SWF. Just food for thought.

 

[Kamaji]

I'll make this short and accurate, Marth>everyone. Close thread.

Marth got nerfed in the USA version, and I've ***** many-a-marth in tourney matches so far on the japanese version using snake.

Also its good to note that these characters have placed well in tournaments thusfar. This isn't saying TOO much because many people don't have access to the game to practice throughly yet, but still:

Metaknight
Peach
Pikachu
Snake
Zelda
ZZS

As of now, these have been common heads of tournaments on the SWF. Just food for thought.

I would have to mostly agree with you, but I wouldnt put peach that high up. The only thing of hers that didnt get worse is her fair. I'd also put G&W in top tier... look up some tourney matches of him. I have a couple friends that play as G&W and he just kicks *** hardcore.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't just watch videos. I go through the entire freaking site of Smashboards and suck out every last bit of relevant information I can find. Fair enough?

And nobody seems to be paying attention to this but me. If your tier list has G&W anywhere under high tier, it's wrong, because he's really ****ing good in Brawl.

Also Ganondorf and Captain Falcon for now are horrible. They have the least overall variety in their movesets.

1.Its waaaay too early to start making tiers.

2.You just called someone wrong for placin G&W under high tier. Marth used to be considered below mid tier. For saying such a thing you end up losing credibility.


It doesn't matter how good or how bad we think of a character right now. The game has not been out for very long and it took over a year before we even saw any hint as to how high level play would be.

This isn't to say that the character won't be good in the fuure but it is best to take everything with a little bit of salt before we start making claims.

No more bashing other people's tiers list please. There are better ways to disagree with people decides saying their tier list sucks.

 

[Subtle]

Though I used to be opposed to this line of thinking, or even brining it up in the discussion, I don't think we can accurately do a teir list anymore. While the fact that too few people have the game is irrelevant, I think that with the advent of balance change in the American version all of our information can be called into doubt. We need to wait 2 days before we really get into the nitty gritty again

 

[Kamaji]

of course this isnt absolute, at this point its mostly speculation and opening up new ideas.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Marth got nerfed in the USA version

Do we actually have any proof of this at all yet? Last I saw was an incredibly unreliable few posts by a guy without any evidence what so ever. Has anyones games updated yet or has a video been made showing the differences? I really doubt this has happened, and I also know people are exaggerating his superiority. Not that he isn't very good, just not infallible.


-True

 

[Phydeaux742]

My thoughts (from about a weeks worth of play)

High Tier
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Sonic
Wario
Pikachu
Marth
Wolf

Personally, i love Meta Knight and ZSS :D

 

[tw1n]

I've read almost every page of this thread and it makes me sad because alot of people are still setting melee standard tiers. Every character has great potential and that has its downsides because its hard to determine a tier list.

In my opinion Yoshi is still low Tier.
Marth is still up there.
Everyone else is being thrown around alot inbetween. Wow... the SBR have alot of work to do lol

 

[spacemanspiff]

^ thats not a down side at all... why would you WANT a tier list??? if every character is equaly balanced the game is perfectly balanced and therefore BETTER than it woiuld be if it were unbalanced...

 

[Keatsta]

I've had the game since a few days after Japanese launch. Here's my best guess at the moment.

Top
Toon Link
Marth
Pit
Game and Watch

Upper
Diddy
Snake
Robot
Luigi
Meta Knight
Wolf

High
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Dedede
Squirtle
Zelda
Lucas
Ice Climber

Mid
Sonic
Charizard
Sheik
Kirby
Falco
Mario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Samus

Low
Peach
Fox
Ivysaur
Bowser
Pikachu
Lucario

Bottom
Ness
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

When it comes to evaluating tiers, you cannot simply go by your own experiences with the game, especially when it hasn't even been out for much more than a month.

By this logic, hypothetically, I could say that because I've played Brawl with my friends every day since the launch and I've won every time with Yoshi, Yoshi is top tier. That just isn't right. How does Yoshi match up against each character? Why does Yoshi match up well against those characters? What is Yoshi struggling against, and why? You can't just get by with saying that Yoshi is top tier simply because you have won against your friends.

There have not been enough matches to really come to any conclusion. Tier lists cannot be determined by simply weighing pros and cons of a character. Olimar may have great knockback and power, but that doesn't mean a thing if he is countered by many characters. At this point, you can't even make a tierlist based upon tournaments. The sample size is simply too small. Wait until we have more results.

 

[Vaxxaruis]

IMO i think G&W owns but hes not top like mid high to High Mid i just can't find his uses at higher level play

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've had the game since a few days after Japanese launch. Here's my best guess at the moment.

Top
Toon Link
Marth
Pit
Game and Watch

Upper
Diddy
Snake
Robot
Luigi
Meta Knight
Wolf

High
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Dedede
Squirtle
Zelda
Lucas
Ice Climber

Mid
Sonic
Charizard
Sheik
Kirby
Falco
Mario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Samus

Low
Peach
Fox
Ivysaur
Bowser
Pikachu
Lucario

Bottom
Ness
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi

sonic belongs lower
gdorf belongs higher
ROB belongs lower

other than that... it may not be perfect, but I primarily agree

 

[Gerudo Warrior]

wtf? yoshi? last?

 

[InSaNiTy]

Sonic for god tier methinks

 

[Flow Wolf]

I've had the game since a few days after Japanese launch. Here's my best guess at the moment.

Top
Toon Link
Marth
Pit
Game and Watch

Upper
Diddy
Snake
Robot
Luigi
Meta Knight
Wolf

High
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Dedede
Squirtle
Zelda
Lucas
Ice Climber

Mid
Sonic
Charizard
Sheik
Kirby
Falco
Mario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Samus

Low
Peach
Fox
Ivysaur
Bowser
Pikachu
Lucario

Bottom
Ness
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi

pretty good

 

[InSaNiTy]

Bull @ CF being bottom tier, he was like 6th in melee ffs

 

[Epamek]

IS G&W really that improved? And has anyone really played DK? Is he still low tier?

 

[Deleted member]

Bull @ CF being bottom tier, he was like 6th in melee ffs

Pikachu and Kirby were top tier in the original. They were downgraded to bottom tier in Melee. CF being bottom tier is perfectly possible.

 

[Deleted member]

sonic is very weak, and despite his speed, lacks combos, kill power, and weight. I'd put him in a lower tier.

edit: marth is at best mid tier in the japanese game. he has no approaches or stun in any way besides fsmash. he's easily shieldcamped to death hardcore.

 

[D20]

Is Toon Link seriously that good? I'm looking forward to this game all of a sudden.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth isnt mid tier at all.

No approaches?

Elaborate plz.

Shield camped?

Again plz elaborate.

 

[Sophos]

Trust me, I've seen his footage. Without L-cancelling, a tougher to time knee, and the lag most of his moves have as it is, Falcon loses much of his broken advantage, especially considering the power-reduction programming in place, as abusing his aerials is a big part of his metagame. The direction Sakurai was headed in with this installment was bound to leave C. Falcon in the dust.

 

[InSaNiTy]

That sucks, my friend (who is my tourney partner and mains falcon) will be pissed

Edit: That is absolutely boss G&W is that good

 

[Deleted member]

Marth isnt mid tier at all.

No approaches?

Elaborate plz.

Shield camped?

Again plz elaborate.

ok, take his melee approaches, now remove dashgrab range, dash to sidesmash, dash to CC, make dash attack ****ty,and remove his fair stun or massive range advantage and make it so he takes damage if you hit his sword.

marth has no approaches rather than to run in and shield, and out of shield grab upsmash or up b.

 

[Gindler]

Yoshi should at least be above bottom tier (his position on the melee tiers for some reason). I think he's worth of high or at least the mid tier.

 

[The Mediator]

Sonic for god tier methinks

... I have not seen a single Brawl vid in which the person playing him has come close to handling Sonic's speed. I really, really disagree with the people who put Sonic at top tier... just because he's fast as **** doesn't mean that he's one of the best characters in the game.

 

[Baamage]

I think we just have not had enough time to practice with Sonic, and get used to his speed.

We haven't had enough time to practice with anyone, really. I agree with the one person on the first page of this thread; We can't really make any conclusions. All I know, from what my friend said [having played brawl], is that Toon Link is pretty intense ?

 

[The Mediator]

Well... another thing about making tiers for Brawl is that the characters are so incredibly balanced now! Any tiers that might be made are the results of pure opinion.
I think that it might even be a good idea to forget tiers for Brawl.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think we just have not had enough time to practice with Sonic, and get used to his speed.

We haven't had enough time to practice with anyone, really. I agree with the one person on the first page of this thread; We can't really make any conclusions. All I know, from what my friend said [having played brawl], is that Toon Link is pretty intense ?

why the heck does everyone say this... sonic is fast, yes, but so was the entire game of melee.

and when people say why they think sonic is poor in brawl, they cite his poor power, deficiency of kill moves, terrible priority and light weight.

only n00bs have said that he's "too fast to handle". No, handling his speed is not difficult... and no amount of speed overcomes his huge problems... in a game where killing your enemy is the main objective, being unable to reliably do so makes being effective difficult to say the least.

In melee, at least one had options. If raw power or quick, long range attacks were not an option, one could attempt to gimp recoveries... I can only speculate on sakurai's motives, but nothing seemed to take the fun out of melee like being gimped at virtually no damage, so, whatever the reasons may be, gimping is far more difficult in brawl. there are several causes for this:
-being able to recover after airdodging means that you can avoid attacks while recovering and still attempt to recover later.
-auto sweetspotting the edge means that it's harder to punish an enemy who doesn't perfectly approach the stage.
-all characters (with the apparent exceptions of peach and wolf) will grab the edge from quite some distance and can grab it while facing backwards, making gimping more difficult.
-the only way to edghog is to occupy the edge, so you cannot pull double duty avoiding an attack while guarding the edge by rolling up.
-stun seems to have dissapated greatly meaning that enemies can recover sooner from an attempted KO and cannot be comboed as easily... off the stage or on it.

these are just a few examples.


Sonic plays much like a melee character... his moveset is highly reliant on comboes and off the edge kills... unfortunately, brawl's new system makes such methods and playstyles far less able to be put into practice. And, unfortunately, sonic doesn't have much else to fall back on. His running speed is great, sure, but what does that accomplish in this game? what is being able to run if, once you catch your oponent, you cannot do much to harm them? what is being able to flee if you will always be caught? Sure, all of his moves seem conceptually solid. you should be able to use his versitile rolling repetoir to quickly approach and punish with a combo... but combos are so few and far between... and almost ANY of sonic's attacks can be easily countered by the FSmash of any character which will almost certainly have more priority, more strength and a larger hitbox.

it is for these reasons that sonic is ranked low on almost any teir list worth its salt. This is coming from one who has always been a sonic fan, and will continue to be one. His speed is nothing that cannot be handled, and is not the reason why he is ranked low. Enjoy the fact that he is in the game, and attempt to do whatever you can to better him, but accept that, at least in the eyes of the current gaming community, he is sub par. if you do this, you will save yourself a lot of heartache.... of course, you could always decide instead to use the search bar to find a thread singing the praises of sonic and that the blind community simply has not unlocked the hedgehog with the steep learning curve. He's secretly great, but only a scant few know it... You'll find threads on both sides of the issue... and I'm sure that you'll be able to convince yourself that either side is the truth if that's what you desire... but I am telling you that false hope is the worst kind. It's true that the teir list is tentative, BUT, it's supposed to represent the current opinon of the characters... and the current opinion is as I have stated.. for the majority... and the majority does not see his speed as something at all difficult to get past.. if you want to argue that he's better than we think... then I would suggest trying to find some solid reasons.

 

[ChewyChase]

@ Sonic the Hedgehawg: How can you even name yourself after such a great mascot and yet go bagging on him? I don't think very highly of someone that contradicts themselves so much... your posts in the Sonic forums are all optimistic... Pick your side! You need to stop being such a liar and having such a 'do as I say not as I do' mien. I'm sorry but that kind of person disappoints me...

_________________________________________________

Characters like Sonic and Olimar NEED more time.

They are begging you for MOAR TIME.

Nobody has completely developed Olimar and his Pikmin or Sonic's ... challenges.

Including Lucario, Meta Knight, as well as Pokemon Trainer!

Poor P.T. he's 3 characters in one! He says in his dorkiest American voiceover ever, "GIVE ME MORE TIME YEAAHH!", "GO IVYSAUR, GIVE ME ANOTHER CHANCE"

While Marth is up and front all, "lawl ken combo to meteor smash lawl forward smash edgeguard lawl"

Brawl is too deep, or too shallow for us to tell.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Characters like Sonic and Olimar NEED more time.

They are begging you for MOAR TIME.

Nobody has completely developed Olimar and his Pikmin or Sonic's speed.

As well as Lucario, Meta Knight, as well as Pokemon Trainer!

Poor P.T. he's 3 characters in one! He says in his dorkiest American voiceover ever, "GIVE ME MORE TIME YEAAHH!", "GO IVYSAUR, GIVE ME ANOTHER CHANCE"

While Marth is up and front all, "lawl ken combo to meteor smash lawl forward smash edgeguard lawl"

Brawl is too deep, or too shallow for us to tell.

that's my point... sonic is a straighforaward character... he's a fast straightforawd character... but he doen't really have any big gimicks or learning curves to get over and anyone telling yo differently is trying to sell you something.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Well... another thing about making tiers for Brawl is that the characters are so incredibly balanced now! Any tiers that might be made are the results of pure opinion.
I think that it might even be a good idea to forget tiers for Brawl.

Don't go that far.
Brawl is not going to be "EVERY CHARACTER CAN PLAY AT THE PROFESSIONAL LEVEL AND WIN CONSISTENTLY!" That is a pipe dream that will never occur. As of right now, we have an underdeveloped meta game and a lack of data for character match ups. A lot of tiers are going to based off of right now is how a character "feels"when they play, knowing that they can deal a lot of damage or have a strong recovery.

Unfortunately, that's not how tier lists should be developed. We should be looking at how a certain character matches up against all the other characters. You need to see why they are struggling in certain match ups and who they are countering effectively. Who is adept at fighting in almost every match up and why? You can't say "Sonic is fast and should be top tier" or "I've been playing against my friends and Pit has won a lot." This is not hard data. You also cannot back this up by saying "Sonic is so fast that we have not learned how to use his speed." You cannot predict the future metagame in this fashion. Live in the now.

We should be looking forward to future tournaments and seeing how the metagame has evolved for Brawl. Which characters are winning with a degree of success in tournaments? Has Marth's approach degraded from Melee? If so, to what extent? Where has Mr. Game and Watch improved in his game, and how does this improve his chances in a battle against each character? Until we can find this out, it'll be difficult to make an accurate tier list.

 

[Anth0ny]

I've had the game since a few days after Japanese launch. Here's my best guess at the moment.

Top
Toon Link
Marth
Pit
Game and Watch

Upper
Diddy
Snake
Robot
Luigi
Meta Knight
Wolf

High
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Dedede
Squirtle
Zelda
Lucas
Ice Climber

Mid
Sonic
Charizard
Sheik
Kirby
Falco
Mario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Samus

Low
Peach
Fox
Ivysaur
Bowser
Pikachu
Lucario

Bottom
Ness
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Wow, you put Fox at low tier? Man, from what I've played, he's still very good. IMO, he's better than the entire mid tier. I'd like to know why you think he's so bad.