• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

Status
Not open for further replies.

teluoborg

Smash Otter
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
4,060
Location
Paris, France
NNID
teloutre
Ok ok wtf pit... the pick up and anybody can play with i mean if u think top tier needs someone who can be played with virtually no skill
Oh my, could it be... you understood what a tier ranking is ?
I might be wrong but, tier is exactly that : a way to express each character's potential with the actual knowledge of the game.
So if anyone can rule with pit it means he's a high tier char.

Anyway, this ranking is subjective and unjustified, I'd be pleased if 5ive could just put a line or two to explain.
 

mista_mista

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
239
Location
Upper Michigan
I have a very strong feeling that Ganon will be bottom tier. However, i'll still play him and it will give me even more of a reason to play him. The ganoncide's will be more rewarding :)
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
techno, i'll at least thank you for putting up reasons for why you think characters are where.

i'd have to say that i disagree with a few characters, namely luigi, wario, pkmn trainer, samus, rob, lucas, sheik, pika, and probably toon link.

luigi - def has a wall of pain, up b kills very early, great recovery, good power. he's awkward to use at first, but has some solid combos, low lag, and good spacing, def high tier material at least.

wario - very strong, excellent air maneuverability, good recovery, aerial grab, good edgeguarding, good combos/sheild pressure. i think he's high for sure

pkmn trainer - maybe you haven't played him enough, but all of his pkmn are extremely useful in their own way. squirtle is extremely good at racking up dmg with aerials, and dthrow/off stage kills are key. ivysaur has so much range he doesn't know what to do with it. the back air is nigh impossible to get through, bullet seed racks up a lot of dmg, up b isn't really gimped with the leaf attack, really strong character. charizard looks bad on paper, but the fsmash has a ton of range, rocksmash and flame can rack up some serious dmg, great killer. def high tier material.

rob - his offstage edgeguarding is pretty unparalleled. he can go higher/lower/farther out than just about every character. learning to chain his fairs together is pretty essential to his kill game. other than that his ground game is sick, dsmash is gotta be one of the fastest smashes in the game. he has great chains with his dash attack and ftilt. good projectiles. upper if not top material.

samus - i think you may have overratted her grapple/projectile game. yeah their pretty nice, and coupled with the up b she can rack up some serious dmg, but when you consider how bad she is at killing, she starts to look less and less appetizing. a good character for sure, not top tier material. once people are better at air dodging you'll see her not doing as well i think.

lucas - higher than mid tier. he's got a lot of power and speed, recovery can't be gimped so easily as ness's can. good projectile thats quick. nice combos, not mid tier.

pika - i think you've overrated him as well. character just can't kill that well. yeah his up b is pretty sick, but without the tail spike like in the last game, he's useless off the stage. ranged hit from the fsmash doesn't even kill anymore, so basically you have to kill everyone off the top, which limits his game a bit. dsmash can be very easily di'd out of, so unless your good with upsmashes, have a fun time setting up for a thunder. i'd say a mid tier character, maaaaybe high

toon link - lots of good quick projectiles to play a camping game that even those good at dodging will have a hard time with. all moves have a lot of priority and are quick. great recovery and combo potential. top tier for sure

sheik - im not going to nitpick too much here, but she definitely isn't the best character in the game. lack of a good projectile/approach game seems to hurt the most. she's probably still an upper tier character, just not the best, nothing seems to stand out as amazing but we'll see

again thanks for posting why you have the characters where they are, and for putting wolf mid tier at least someone else can see he's nothing special
Thanks for the constructive criticism. I think Luigi is a neat character, but I feel like he just gets spaced by everyone. He's got good stuff when he gets in close for a juggle and good kill moves and is good all-around but I don't think he can win every matchup. How about Marth? DeDeDe? Toon Link? Olimar? There's struggle there. You can keep adding names to that list, even down to characters like Fox, whereas with the high tiers, like Toon Link, Olimar, DeDeDe, the answer is almost always yes.

Wario I think is overrated, and like I said I think the top tiers just beat him up. If he stays on the ground he gets grabbed, and in the air he gets juggled. Bite does some damage but leaves you open, and his recovery is gimped easily by some characters.

R.O.B. - Yeah he's awesome, but he feels like Game and Watch, and Game and Watch is just more buff. Is R.O.B. as good as Snake? Lucario? DeDeDe?

When I picked up this game, I mained Pokemon Trainer. I know how good he is, I invented a lot of great Ivysaur combos and setups, but he doesn't win matches like the top tiers.

Additionally, I also main Lucas. Lucas is another go-get-em character who can get em for sure. Remember, Brawl is VERY balanced, and if you can beat Lucas, you can do it with almost any character.



You have to think in terms of the equality of some styles and think of things what a character can't do. For instance, R.O.B. is a great beat-em-upper, has great projectiles, but doesn't game and watch have all or almost all of the same traits? Doesn't shiek? How about Pika? Toon Link? How about Wario and Pokemon Trainer? Everyone in this game has the power to really get someone and beat them to hell when they DI wrong or leave themselves open or fall for a trap, EVERYONE HAS THAT POTENTIAL. You've got to look for the characters that can get the MOST KOs, and have the least matchup weaknesses.

Another thing, when I was making this list, I saw how good this game really is. Putting an order to the the mid tier and singling characters out for low tier is HARD, and I think you can win with any character from top to low; only the bottom tier (so far) is completely tournament unusuable. When organizing the characters I took mostly into account these factors:

1) Inescapable combos and chaingrabs, ridiculous priority moves, and great setups.
2) Ability to camp (see Mario)
3) Ability to deal with campers (see R.O.B.)
4) Ability to form effective spontaneous play
5) Punishing ability (which includes ground and air speed and fast, easy to set up KO moves like Marth's f-smash)
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Ok, first of all let me say that Brawl is a much more balanced style of play than melee, and I think Sakurai did a great job and creating balance while preserving integrity and individuality among the characters. In this game every character has a strength to use, and every character FEELS like their video game counterpart appeared in Sakurai's eye. However, with individuality comes comparison, and similarities and differences create balances and imbalances. People ask the question, who is the best character? Well that will always depend; some characters have great defense, some character great offense, some great degrees of strategy and some are very rounded and balanced. So it depends on what question you ask, and I'd like to clarify that:

The purpose of this tier list is to find out who is the best AT WINNING MATCHES.

In melee, the game was very polarized; you had camping characters, like Peach, Samus and Sheik, and you had characters with brutal offense, like the spacies, Marth, and Lol Shiek. Characters that could do neither as well as the best were beatable. The effect of a good offense is that it stimulates action, which is quite possibly what made melee so amazing; you always had to be doing something, doing something good was better than waiting which was better than doing something wasteful or bad. However, this had an unintended effect; the characters with the strongest offense were simply unstoppable, untouchable by the rest of the cast, and this destroyed some (but not all) of the diversity in the game. Eventually, people found that certain character's individual traits, like Bowser's up-B and Falcon's speedy grabs and powerful combos, could be used to offset the game's primary strategies and devise alternative methods of winning based on them, creating a great meta game.

I see the same thing beginning to develop in Brawl, but without the offense. I don't feel the stimulus to move and to attack or be attacked as much against many of the characters, and I feel the tier list is going to develop around those character that can evoke that reaction and bring the fight across the stage in a safe but effective manner, and I've ranked the characters as such below. First I'd like to explain my tiers.

Top Tier
These are the best characters in the game; these characters have no major counterpicks or counter strategies, and have impressive and established offensive capabilities.
High Tier
These are great characters to pick, and can compete gainfully at any level without need for extensive innovation or stylization.
Mid Tier
These characters are average in most respects, standouts in some, with no brutal counterpicks or counter strategies, and are able to innovate.

Low Tier
These characters suffer from flaws that hinder their ability to compete at tournament level. Creative play can be both rewarding and costly with these characters; however, in the grand balance, better players will still be able to effectively beat players that are worse than them with Low Tier characters.
Bottom Tier
Distinguishing between who is strong, well-balanced and usable among the low tiers, and who gets completely ***** by pretty much everyone.

So, without further ado...

Top Tier
Sheik - OMG nerfs, well not really. Sheik is still very fast and very agile and comes with the ability to hurt you and gimp you if you react predictably. I feel that she is the ONLY character that can handle all of the top tiers and win tournaments against the best of players with her techniques alone.
Diddy Kong - Bananas and Glide tossing are both very gay when separate and come together to form probably the gayest strategies in Brawl. Some characters just can't beat them, and that's a fact. Diddy loses points in his recovery and weight class, and can struggle to finish some characters but can definitely keep donking them until they die. Diddy Hump/Jumpkick is a really great edgeguard too.
Samus - That freaking grapple is really gay, and Samus has solid projectiles to back her up and good close combat. Only those with a combination of strength, speed, and mental fitness will be able to consistently win against Samus.
Meta Knight – Meta and Marth are interesting to place on the list because they play so similarly, however, I gave Meta the nod on this list because he has a few things that I feel give him the edge. First is Mach Tornado, which can almost totally shut down low priority characters like DK. Second is his lack of lag, which I think puts him above Marth in his ability to shut out less than pro players. Third is his edge/gimping game, and I think he has a slight nod over Marth off the stage due to his range off the stage and ability to recover when things go sour, even though I give Marth the nod in the actual match-up between the two.
Marth – We haven't seen the end of Marth yet. Marth is still one of the strongest characters in Brawl, and has the power to force almost every character to react to his actions. He has many new and old strategies that top players are using to place at the top of ladders and in tournaments, and I don't think we've seen all of his umph yet; 5th on this list, because whether or not you choose the cave of the silver monkey or the pit of despair, there is always a way to get through to the cave of sighs and out to the temple gates. Marth gets a donk here from DeDeDe's infinite grab.

High Tier
Mr. Game and Watch – Game and Watch, eh? The best game-and-watches in the country always get their man, and he is amazingly buff in Brawl. He can beat ANY character very soundly if they don't know what to do, especially with his mega mindgames buff downthrow, however, to place at the top, he'll have to get better at camping and get a new projectile. Why does G&W make the best sandwiches? BECAUSE HE LAYS ON THE MUSTARD, SON.
Lucario - Lucario is really good, don't get me wrong, but so is everyone else. Lucario get this spot on two things. The first is his primary mechanic: High Percent = High Damage. It makes for a neat trade but is high in risk and I don't think it works out as well as fighting at standard advantage unless you can maintain a lead. The second is his general imperfections. He has a projectile but it is weak. He has a fast roll, but a roll nonetheless. He has good aerials but they aren't quite spammable, and his smashes just can't kill unless Lucario is at high percent. He has combos and semicombos but they are difficult to set up. All in all his arsenal matches up with almost every character well and I think we'll see him winning many tournaments, I don't think he is the best in show.
Olimar - Olimar is really good at beating people up, has good disjointed hitboxes, and takes a thorough effort to beat. I don't think his gimpable recovery is a huge enough issue to go to war over, I feel that he competes at the top level but I don't feel that he can punish well enough to be the very best.
Pikachu – Pika got a major buff from Melee to Brawl, but the two biggest features are his extreme down throw chain grab, and his super buff low lag thunder, which can be effective as low at 70%. Pika also has a good projectile and solid all-around moves that work on every character, as well as Quick Attack Cancels, while not game-breaking, can certainly turn him into the Fox of Brawl in terms of speed. Pika gets his spot here on the basics + the gay; he has a few standard smash style moves that just work and keep working to build damage, he can land KO moves against any character, and then he has that chain grab which completely blows many match-ups out of the water.
Snake – Snake... is weird. He's really good, but at the same time, your ability to predict the battle comes into play very strongly, and I feel that that is what Sakurai intended. Though he is a great camper, Snake is slow, and vulnerable to defeat from some angles, and must be played both cautiously and effectively if you want to survive.
Falco - Falco hits every point; he can camp, combo and semicombo, pressure, space, fight in the air and ground, edge guard and gimp, and has a good grab game from his chain grab, however, his defense is weak. I think we'll see Falco develop into a very strong pick as the game progresses and we learn more about him.
King DeDeDe - Extremely strong, heavy, with a good camp and several good pokes and some great smashes, DeDeDe is a great pick and can certainly win tournaments, but is weak to a few good characters, like Falco, Pit and Lucas. DeDeDe grabs this spot by a hair simply because he's so good against the cream of the crop; Sheik, Meta and Marth.
Toon Link - Great character that is solid in all departments, but I think weight is a factor here, and getting back on the stage is another factor (not recovery, actually getting off the edge and onto the stage without getting swatted off). I think TL has to make a lot of good guesses and hammer in all of the coffin nails to win against many top tier characters, but his match-ups are all strong.

Mid Tier

Pit - I don't think he's as buff as most people think he is, but he can force many characters (including most of the high tiers) to play his game. I think he's honestly weak to solid all-around aerial/punishment characters like Sheik, Mario and Squirtle, and people with good counters to his arrows like Lucas. Everyone else will have to fight for their bread against Pit.
Ice Climbers - I need to see more of what they are capable of, but as of now they have good chaingrabs and combos, and perform against everyone effectively.
Ike – Ike is intensely powerful and has amazing priority, and several speedy moves that can KO at percents that are ********. Spacing with Ike is almost a non-issue; the idea is that positive trades will lead to brutal setups and early KO's. Unfortunately, I don't think he has the tools to win consistently enough to be at the top of the tier list, and is easily counterpicked, but I think against the very best of the best his match-ups improve, because Ike can force many live or die choices against top tiers.
Fox - Fox is a good character, and has a solid pressure game, and can win tournaments by punishing mistakes effectively and applying pressure moves in the right spots, but at the highest level he gets beaten to hell by the best characters that won't let him set up an attack, defend, camp, or recover. When questioning Fox's spot on the tier list, consider how he matches up with Marth, Sheik, and MetaKnight; I don't see consistency here at all, though he can be a great counterpick.
Jigglypuff - Not much different from melee, but without rest combos and with a seriously gimped rest, a big asset was lost, and I think Jiggs takes a major hit there. She can certainly compete with the best, however.
Peach – We haven't seen the last of Peach either. I think the Glide Toss will make her very strong and a viable tournament choice for experts, and though her old FC style is mostly out the window a stylish Peach can still lay it on.
Lucas - Lucas is hard to place, because he does everything well, is difficult to shut-down, and can fight off many characters. He is also an effective aggressive camper with PK fire, can gimp with Psi Magnet and PK Thunder, but overall, I think he has a bag of tricks that great players will be able to overcome with good pressure and solid play. A good comparison would be Mario; Lucas has good anti projectile and anticamper, good aerials, but against some characters, like Diddy, Sheik and Marth, will struggle to do damage or KO. As far as the counterpick Tier list goes, Lucas is #1, but if you're going to main him, be warned that you'll need to master all of his points to compete.
Zero Suit Samus - A good character, but with a weak recovery and a lot of lag on her really good spacers, and her projectile is a little funky but can lead to good setups. A solid choice for great players who like a fast style, but good-to-average players may want to take time to pick up a strong second to deal with their weaknesses.
Yoshi - Yoshi is mega buff! Don't underestimate him! He's got some camping, but mostly he's just SOLID; you have to really be good at smash to be able to consistently beat a good Yoshi. Best dinosaur in the game hands down, but overall doesn't have the tools to beat the far and away best characters.
R.O.B. - Rob is neato! But does he get the job done? The big deciding factor for Rob, I think, is how you effectively you use the dredel, and how good you are at spacing, but otherwise I think R.O.B. just doesn't have it in the offense department.
Kirby - Buffed from last game and definitely someone to be nervous about fighting, but I think if you've really mastered your character and understand Kirby, he's beatable with anyone. I don't think we'll see Kirby winning any major tournaments.
Wolf - Wolf is a strong character, no doubt, and overall one of the best if you are a gay douchehat, but I think he's beatable both on the stage and off the stage (doubly so off stage) by many characters. Great Wolf players will find ways to get around his weaknesses, however, I don't think he pays off as well as many of the characters higher than he is, and I think he'll be getting really ***** if people start overusing him.

Low Tier

Mario - Mario is really good in Brawl, and can beat any strategy with some combination of Cape, F-smash, Backair, Fireballs and juggles, but his problem comes when they start mixing it up in the right ways, making your Mario guess and take damage, and after a while you spend your time donked off the stage at a high percent until you're dead.
Donkey Kong - Good, but has a major issue with projectiles, camping, and lag on those attacks. Much like in Melee, a low tier but masters will continue to excel with him, and a valid tournament choice if he is your best and you know exactly how to handle the top tiers.
Zelda - Zelda is another one of those really good characters that relies entirely too much on landing more hits than the opponent. 5/10 camping, 8/10 power, 4/10 recovery, 5/10 for ingenuity, and good speed where it counts, but it took me a while to place her. Is she better than Mario? I don't think she's significantly better than Wolf or Kirby, but I don't think she's terrible either.
Ness - A good character with a great heart, still has all his tricks from Melee (minus the Yo-Yo glitch of course), and has many answers to the questions of the top tiers, but has yet to measure up to the overall challenge; I mean he can't use the same strategies over and over again to win with consistency, and he can't make most characters answer his attacks if they don't want to.
Link - We all know what Link can do, and those of us who mastered him in the last game found his limitation was that everyone knows exactly what Link can do. THANKS GERM ahem I mean...at the highest, most perfect level of play, he's a match for any character, but positioning and spacing is so important to keep that I just don't think he's feasible to do against good players.

Bottom Tier
Captain Falcon - He's not that fast, and his up-air is still pretty good, and you can plant moves if you are amazing, but I don't think he's that good anymore; he just doesn't get it done like he used to.
Wario - Many of you will be surprised to see Wario down so low, and I'll go ahead and elaborate; Wario won't win any major tournaments. Once you know what he's capable of, I think it's pretty easy to shut him down and beat him up from a fighting standpoint, which is the only one that Wario has. He has a large area for aerial creativity, I think, which is nice, and is fun to play and watch, I just don't feel like he has anything to give me that I can't find elsewhere. If you have questions, find a character above here that Wario can really put the thwomp on, and elaborate.
Bowser - Still pretty low. Another character with potential, but his obesity cannot be cured completely. Again, we see the Bowser strategy rotating between intercepting aerials, using his Up-B to punish from shield, and using the side B to throw off the opponent, but other characters win faster and do it better, and very mobile characters will just beat you to death.
Sonic - Oh man he looks super cool, but his smashes pretty much all suck, except for maybe the F-smash. F-tilt is a good spacer, but overall he is very reliant on his speed and can be shut down. Sonic is good as an all-rounder and a valid tournament choice, but I don't think you can consider beating the best characters 100% of the time playing only Sonic.
Luigi - Luigi really got it bad this game. He's got fire-punch for kills, but major kudos to you if you can beat a really good Diddy or Samus with the green plumber. A good camp is just too tough to break without wavedashing to back you up.
Pokemon Trainer - Well... man, I just don't know what to say about this guy. He's not all there. His game works from an if-you-can-get-this-off standpoint, but from a high level game play standpoint I just don't see it. Ivysaur is the most solid all around due to bullet seed but and related mvoes but is easily gimped and has trouble killing smart players. Squirtle is insanely light but a good counter to a variety of weak-hit reliant characters, like Mario and even Sheik, but Charizard and Ivysaur lack so much in those match-ups; you'll understand when your Lizardon gets Ken Combo'd to hell. It's almost as if you have to play a stock down with PT, it's so hard to overcome the inherent weaknesses of each Pokemon, and the fact that you are forced to switch by death and fatigue just makes the situation too complicated to overcome. Fatigue is a huge issue here; two minutes minus one second per move makes camping stupidly effective.
Ganondorf - Ganondorf has about three tricks up his sleeve, and if you can avoid them, you will win easily and handily with almost every character. Great 'dorfs, in Melee and in Brawl, have always been able to get it done and offer pain on both ends of a choice, but how the hell do you deal with needle camping with this guy? How to you get back to the stage when you get dunked? How exactly do you kill King DeDeDe? Dorf has some major issues and I think he's too easily counter picked to be a valid tournament character.
I agree with the majority of your list. I mained Sheik in melee, and can honestly say that she sitll plays primarily the same as before (which is a good thing). Sure her moves to seem to ko as quickly or effectively as before, that's because she's been "tweaked" a bit. She's still absolutely worthy of top tier. Also, as for Wolf, I too agree that he is largely overrated. He is definately not the best of the spacies. I'd say he's probably better than Fox, but Falco reigns supreme. His shine and long ranged SHDL is just too effective. On that note I feel that Falco deserves top tier spot. Good points though overall, though, I must say that I agree with some of what Mage had to say. Which is the next quote...

techno, i'll at least thank you for putting up reasons for why you think characters are where.

i'd have to say that i disagree with a few characters, namely luigi, wario, pkmn trainer, samus, rob, lucas, sheik, pika, and probably toon link.

luigi - def has a wall of pain, up b kills very early, great recovery, good power. he's awkward to use at first, but has some solid combos, low lag, and good spacing, def high tier material at least.

wario - very strong, excellent air maneuverability, good recovery, aerial grab, good edgeguarding, good combos/sheild pressure. i think he's high for sure

pkmn trainer - maybe you haven't played him enough, but all of his pkmn are extremely useful in their own way. squirtle is extremely good at racking up dmg with aerials, and dthrow/off stage kills are key. ivysaur has so much range he doesn't know what to do with it. the back air is nigh impossible to get through, bullet seed racks up a lot of dmg, up b isn't really gimped with the leaf attack, really strong character. charizard looks bad on paper, but the fsmash has a ton of range, rocksmash and flame can rack up some serious dmg, great killer. def high tier material.

rob - his offstage edgeguarding is pretty unparalleled. he can go higher/lower/farther out than just about every character. learning to chain his fairs together is pretty essential to his kill game. other than that his ground game is sick, dsmash is gotta be one of the fastest smashes in the game. he has great chains with his dash attack and ftilt. good projectiles. upper if not top material.

samus - i think you may have overratted her grapple/projectile game. yeah their pretty nice, and coupled with the up b she can rack up some serious dmg, but when you consider how bad she is at killing, she starts to look less and less appetizing. a good character for sure, not top tier material. once people are better at air dodging you'll see her not doing as well i think.

lucas - higher than mid tier. he's got a lot of power and speed, recovery can't be gimped so easily as ness's can. good projectile thats quick. nice combos, not mid tier.

pika - i think you've overrated him as well. character just can't kill that well. yeah his up b is pretty sick, but without the tail spike like in the last game, he's useless off the stage. ranged hit from the fsmash doesn't even kill anymore, so basically you have to kill everyone off the top, which limits his game a bit. dsmash can be very easily di'd out of, so unless your good with upsmashes, have a fun time setting up for a thunder. i'd say a mid tier character, maaaaybe high

toon link - lots of good quick projectiles to play a camping game that even those good at dodging will have a hard time with. all moves have a lot of priority and are quick. great recovery and combo potential. top tier for sure

sheik - im not going to nitpick too much here, but she definitely isn't the best character in the game. lack of a good projectile/approach game seems to hurt the most. she's probably still an upper tier character, just not the best, nothing seems to stand out as amazing but we'll see

again thanks for posting why you have the characters where they are, and for putting wolf mid tier at least someone else can see he's nothing special
 

kazaken455

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
105
Location
Bussey, Iowa!
my list would have Olimar, Metaknight, ZSS, and maybe Kirby. Kirby seems to have been given a boost. But I still love Olimar! My favorite!
 

Yojimbo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
309
Location
Western Kentucky
Ok, first of all let me say that Brawl is a much more balanced style of play than melee, and I think Sakurai did a great job and creating balance while preserving integrity and individuality among the characters. In this game every character has a strength to use, and every character FEELS like their video game counterpart appeared in Sakurai's eye. However, with individuality comes comparison, and similarities and differences create balances and imbalances. People ask the question, who is the best character? Well that will always depend; some characters have great defense, some character great offense, some great degrees of strategy and some are very rounded and balanced. So it depends on what question you ask, and I'd like to clarify that:

The purpose of this tier list is to find out who is the best AT WINNING MATCHES.

In melee, the game was very polarized; you had camping characters, like Peach, Samus and Sheik, and you had characters with brutal offense, like the spacies, Marth, and Lol Shiek. Characters that could do neither as well as the best were beatable. The effect of a good offense is that it stimulates action, which is quite possibly what made melee so amazing; you always had to be doing something, doing something good was better than waiting which was better than doing something wasteful or bad. However, this had an unintended effect; the characters with the strongest offense were simply unstoppable, untouchable by the rest of the cast, and this destroyed some (but not all) of the diversity in the game. Eventually, people found that certain character's individual traits, like Bowser's up-B and Falcon's speedy grabs and powerful combos, could be used to offset the game's primary strategies and devise alternative methods of winning based on them, creating a great meta game.

I see the same thing beginning to develop in Brawl, but without the offense. I don't feel the stimulus to move and to attack or be attacked as much against many of the characters, and I feel the tier list is going to develop around those character that can evoke that reaction and bring the fight across the stage in a safe but effective manner, and I've ranked the characters as such below. First I'd like to explain my tiers.

Top Tier
These are the best characters in the game; these characters have no major counterpicks or counter strategies, and have impressive and established offensive capabilities.
High Tier
These are great characters to pick, and can compete gainfully at any level without need for extensive innovation or stylization.
Mid Tier
These characters are average in most respects, standouts in some, with no brutal counterpicks or counter strategies, and are able to innovate.

Low Tier
These characters suffer from flaws that hinder their ability to compete at tournament level. Creative play can be both rewarding and costly with these characters; however, in the grand balance, better players will still be able to effectively beat players that are worse than them with Low Tier characters.
Bottom Tier
Distinguishing between who is strong, well-balanced and usable among the low tiers, and who gets completely ***** by pretty much everyone.

So, without further ado...

Top Tier
Sheik - OMG nerfs, well not really. Sheik is still very fast and very agile and comes with the ability to hurt you and gimp you if you react predictably. I feel that she is the ONLY character that can handle all of the top tiers and win tournaments against the best of players with her techniques alone.
Diddy Kong - Bananas and Glide tossing are both very gay when separate and come together to form probably the gayest strategies in Brawl. Some characters just can't beat them, and that's a fact. Diddy loses points in his recovery and weight class, and can struggle to finish some characters but can definitely keep donking them until they die. Diddy Hump/Jumpkick is a really great edgeguard too.
Samus - That freaking grapple is really gay, and Samus has solid projectiles to back her up and good close combat. Only those with a combination of strength, speed, and mental fitness will be able to consistently win against Samus.
Meta Knight – Meta and Marth are interesting to place on the list because they play so similarly, however, I gave Meta the nod on this list because he has a few things that I feel give him the edge. First is Mach Tornado, which can almost totally shut down low priority characters like DK. Second is his lack of lag, which I think puts him above Marth in his ability to shut out less than pro players. Third is his edge/gimping game, and I think he has a slight nod over Marth off the stage due to his range off the stage and ability to recover when things go sour, even though I give Marth the nod in the actual match-up between the two.
Marth – We haven't seen the end of Marth yet. Marth is still one of the strongest characters in Brawl, and has the power to force almost every character to react to his actions. He has many new and old strategies that top players are using to place at the top of ladders and in tournaments, and I don't think we've seen all of his umph yet; 5th on this list, because whether or not you choose the cave of the silver monkey or the pit of despair, there is always a way to get through to the cave of sighs and out to the temple gates. Marth gets a donk here from DeDeDe's infinite grab.

High Tier
Mr. Game and Watch – Game and Watch, eh? The best game-and-watches in the country always get their man, and he is amazingly buff in Brawl. He can beat ANY character very soundly if they don't know what to do, especially with his mega mindgames buff downthrow, however, to place at the top, he'll have to get better at camping and get a new projectile. Why does G&W make the best sandwiches? BECAUSE HE LAYS ON THE MUSTARD, SON.
Lucario - Lucario is really good, don't get me wrong, but so is everyone else. Lucario get this spot on two things. The first is his primary mechanic: High Percent = High Damage. It makes for a neat trade but is high in risk and I don't think it works out as well as fighting at standard advantage unless you can maintain a lead. The second is his general imperfections. He has a projectile but it is weak. He has a fast roll, but a roll nonetheless. He has good aerials but they aren't quite spammable, and his smashes just can't kill unless Lucario is at high percent. He has combos and semicombos but they are difficult to set up. All in all his arsenal matches up with almost every character well and I think we'll see him winning many tournaments, I don't think he is the best in show.
Olimar - Olimar is really good at beating people up, has good disjointed hitboxes, and takes a thorough effort to beat. I don't think his gimpable recovery is a huge enough issue to go to war over, I feel that he competes at the top level but I don't feel that he can punish well enough to be the very best.
Pikachu – Pika got a major buff from Melee to Brawl, but the two biggest features are his extreme down throw chain grab, and his super buff low lag thunder, which can be effective as low at 70%. Pika also has a good projectile and solid all-around moves that work on every character, as well as Quick Attack Cancels, while not game-breaking, can certainly turn him into the Fox of Brawl in terms of speed. Pika gets his spot here on the basics + the gay; he has a few standard smash style moves that just work and keep working to build damage, he can land KO moves against any character, and then he has that chain grab which completely blows many match-ups out of the water.
Snake – Snake... is weird. He's really good, but at the same time, your ability to predict the battle comes into play very strongly, and I feel that that is what Sakurai intended. Though he is a great camper, Snake is slow, and vulnerable to defeat from some angles, and must be played both cautiously and effectively if you want to survive.
Falco - Falco hits every point; he can camp, combo and semicombo, pressure, space, fight in the air and ground, edge guard and gimp, and has a good grab game from his chain grab, however, his defense is weak. I think we'll see Falco develop into a very strong pick as the game progresses and we learn more about him.
King DeDeDe - Extremely strong, heavy, with a good camp and several good pokes and some great smashes, DeDeDe is a great pick and can certainly win tournaments, but is weak to a few good characters, like Falco, Pit and Lucas. DeDeDe grabs this spot by a hair simply because he's so good against the cream of the crop; Sheik, Meta and Marth.
Toon Link - Great character that is solid in all departments, but I think weight is a factor here, and getting back on the stage is another factor (not recovery, actually getting off the edge and onto the stage without getting swatted off). I think TL has to make a lot of good guesses and hammer in all of the coffin nails to win against many top tier characters, but his match-ups are all strong.

Mid Tier

Pit - I don't think he's as buff as most people think he is, but he can force many characters (including most of the high tiers) to play his game. I think he's honestly weak to solid all-around aerial/punishment characters like Sheik, Mario and Squirtle, and people with good counters to his arrows like Lucas. Everyone else will have to fight for their bread against Pit.
Ice Climbers - I need to see more of what they are capable of, but as of now they have good chaingrabs and combos, and perform against everyone effectively.
Ike – Ike is intensely powerful and has amazing priority, and several speedy moves that can KO at percents that are ********. Spacing with Ike is almost a non-issue; the idea is that positive trades will lead to brutal setups and early KO's. Unfortunately, I don't think he has the tools to win consistently enough to be at the top of the tier list, and is easily counterpicked, but I think against the very best of the best his match-ups improve, because Ike can force many live or die choices against top tiers.
Fox - Fox is a good character, and has a solid pressure game, and can win tournaments by punishing mistakes effectively and applying pressure moves in the right spots, but at the highest level he gets beaten to hell by the best characters that won't let him set up an attack, defend, camp, or recover. When questioning Fox's spot on the tier list, consider how he matches up with Marth, Sheik, and MetaKnight; I don't see consistency here at all, though he can be a great counterpick.
Jigglypuff - Not much different from melee, but without rest combos and with a seriously gimped rest, a big asset was lost, and I think Jiggs takes a major hit there. She can certainly compete with the best, however.
Peach – We haven't seen the last of Peach either. I think the Glide Toss will make her very strong and a viable tournament choice for experts, and though her old FC style is mostly out the window a stylish Peach can still lay it on.
Lucas - Lucas is hard to place, because he does everything well, is difficult to shut-down, and can fight off many characters. He is also an effective aggressive camper with PK fire, can gimp with Psi Magnet and PK Thunder, but overall, I think he has a bag of tricks that great players will be able to overcome with good pressure and solid play. A good comparison would be Mario; Lucas has good anti projectile and anticamper, good aerials, but against some characters, like Diddy, Sheik and Marth, will struggle to do damage or KO. As far as the counterpick Tier list goes, Lucas is #1, but if you're going to main him, be warned that you'll need to master all of his points to compete.
Zero Suit Samus - A good character, but with a weak recovery and a lot of lag on her really good spacers, and her projectile is a little funky but can lead to good setups. A solid choice for great players who like a fast style, but good-to-average players may want to take time to pick up a strong second to deal with their weaknesses.
Yoshi - Yoshi is mega buff! Don't underestimate him! He's got some camping, but mostly he's just SOLID; you have to really be good at smash to be able to consistently beat a good Yoshi. Best dinosaur in the game hands down, but overall doesn't have the tools to beat the far and away best characters.
R.O.B. - Rob is neato! But does he get the job done? The big deciding factor for Rob, I think, is how you effectively you use the dredel, and how good you are at spacing, but otherwise I think R.O.B. just doesn't have it in the offense department.
Kirby - Buffed from last game and definitely someone to be nervous about fighting, but I think if you've really mastered your character and understand Kirby, he's beatable with anyone. I don't think we'll see Kirby winning any major tournaments.
Wolf - Wolf is a strong character, no doubt, and overall one of the best if you are a gay douchehat, but I think he's beatable both on the stage and off the stage (doubly so off stage) by many characters. Great Wolf players will find ways to get around his weaknesses, however, I don't think he pays off as well as many of the characters higher than he is, and I think he'll be getting really ***** if people start overusing him.

Low Tier

Mario - Mario is really good in Brawl, and can beat any strategy with some combination of Cape, F-smash, Backair, Fireballs and juggles, but his problem comes when they start mixing it up in the right ways, making your Mario guess and take damage, and after a while you spend your time donked off the stage at a high percent until you're dead.
Donkey Kong - Good, but has a major issue with projectiles, camping, and lag on those attacks. Much like in Melee, a low tier but masters will continue to excel with him, and a valid tournament choice if he is your best and you know exactly how to handle the top tiers.
Zelda - Zelda is another one of those really good characters that relies entirely too much on landing more hits than the opponent. 5/10 camping, 8/10 power, 4/10 recovery, 5/10 for ingenuity, and good speed where it counts, but it took me a while to place her. Is she better than Mario? I don't think she's significantly better than Wolf or Kirby, but I don't think she's terrible either.
Ness - A good character with a great heart, still has all his tricks from Melee (minus the Yo-Yo glitch of course), and has many answers to the questions of the top tiers, but has yet to measure up to the overall challenge; I mean he can't use the same strategies over and over again to win with consistency, and he can't make most characters answer his attacks if they don't want to.
Link - We all know what Link can do, and those of us who mastered him in the last game found his limitation was that everyone knows exactly what Link can do. THANKS GERM ahem I mean...at the highest, most perfect level of play, he's a match for any character, but positioning and spacing is so important to keep that I just don't think he's feasible to do against good players.

Bottom Tier
Captain Falcon - He's not that fast, and his up-air is still pretty good, and you can plant moves if you are amazing, but I don't think he's that good anymore; he just doesn't get it done like he used to.
Wario - Many of you will be surprised to see Wario down so low, and I'll go ahead and elaborate; Wario won't win any major tournaments. Once you know what he's capable of, I think it's pretty easy to shut him down and beat him up from a fighting standpoint, which is the only one that Wario has. He has a large area for aerial creativity, I think, which is nice, and is fun to play and watch, I just don't feel like he has anything to give me that I can't find elsewhere. If you have questions, find a character above here that Wario can really put the thwomp on, and elaborate.
Bowser - Still pretty low. Another character with potential, but his obesity cannot be cured completely. Again, we see the Bowser strategy rotating between intercepting aerials, using his Up-B to punish from shield, and using the side B to throw off the opponent, but other characters win faster and do it better, and very mobile characters will just beat you to death.
Sonic - Oh man he looks super cool, but his smashes pretty much all suck, except for maybe the F-smash. F-tilt is a good spacer, but overall he is very reliant on his speed and can be shut down. Sonic is good as an all-rounder and a valid tournament choice, but I don't think you can consider beating the best characters 100% of the time playing only Sonic.
Luigi - Luigi really got it bad this game. He's got fire-punch for kills, but major kudos to you if you can beat a really good Diddy or Samus with the green plumber. A good camp is just too tough to break without wavedashing to back you up.
Pokemon Trainer - Well... man, I just don't know what to say about this guy. He's not all there. His game works from an if-you-can-get-this-off standpoint, but from a high level game play standpoint I just don't see it. Ivysaur is the most solid all around due to bullet seed but and related mvoes but is easily gimped and has trouble killing smart players. Squirtle is insanely light but a good counter to a variety of weak-hit reliant characters, like Mario and even Sheik, but Charizard and Ivysaur lack so much in those match-ups; you'll understand when your Lizardon gets Ken Combo'd to hell. It's almost as if you have to play a stock down with PT, it's so hard to overcome the inherent weaknesses of each Pokemon, and the fact that you are forced to switch by death and fatigue just makes the situation too complicated to overcome. Fatigue is a huge issue here; two minutes minus one second per move makes camping stupidly effective.
Ganondorf - Ganondorf has about three tricks up his sleeve, and if you can avoid them, you will win easily and handily with almost every character. Great 'dorfs, in Melee and in Brawl, have always been able to get it done and offer pain on both ends of a choice, but how the hell do you deal with needle camping with this guy? How to you get back to the stage when you get dunked? How exactly do you kill King DeDeDe? Dorf has some major issues and I think he's too easily counter picked to be a valid tournament character.
Well thought out and it has many valid points. But I disagree on some notes. Sheik at this point has no business being top tier, simply because her lack of an ability to kill. I disagree on Meta Knight but I have yet to play a good Metaknight. Everytime I've played one, they have lacked the ability to KO anyone. I'd drop him a tier level.
 

Kietharr

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
28
The colorful tl;dr list is horribly wrong on so many levels, bottom tier luigi, high lucario, MID for fox? What the hell? Samus is far from top tier, I don't know what you're smoking but please pass some along. Metaknight isn't that easily comparable to Marth because Marth actually has a lot of good finishing moves to accompany his quick damage attacks and good aerials, a better comparison is toon link, who is almost exactly like what you'd get if Marth and Link had a ******* child after a wild one night stand.

You really need to take a second look at a lot of those characters, Yoshi and Jigglypuff are not better than Zelda.
 

Ekaru

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
184
Location
Minneapolis MN
Dear TechnoMonster:

ROB is high if not top tier material. What are you smoking? ROB has an EXCELLENT offense! His fairs can be a WoP, his nair is a beast, his dair can spike, his up air is good for racking up damage, and his bair can recover and also KO.

On the ground, his dsmash is excellent for punishing, his fsmash can kill, his upsmash can kill opponents above you. Also, his tilts are great.

BTW, his side+B can do 14 percent. I can do that much consistently now (for those who don't know, you gotta press the B button rapidly during the move to make it actually do some damage). It reflects projectiles too! So with a little jump, you can start up the move early, reflect some projectiles and, if ya time it right, do a little damage too. Just gotta predict.

Oh, and ROB DOES have an excellent offense and has good grabs, good for getting your opponent into a kill situation.

Plus, his nair is good for killing.

Look him over again. He is NOT at the bottom of middle tier. I mean seriously now, he's MUCH better than that! He's one of the best characters in the game when used right dang nabbit. XP
 

KingRedX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
9
LOL, I'm sorry, but KingRedX is an idiot.

im an idiot when ive seen it done

i saw a 9 year old kid play for his 1st time who sucks at video games, use pit, and it was like he had been playing it in the womb its not like i said what i said without having seen it been done maybe someone shouldnt jump to conclusions -.- ...


all it takes to master pit is learn to push down the B button
 

Illussionary

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
293
Location
ATL, Georgia
● Top tier characters are just, well, top.
● High tier characters are just very solid characters with apparent strengths that put them above the others.
● Mid tier characters can compete with high tier ones very well, despite being edged out slightly.
● Low tier characters have some sort of glaring weakness which puts them at a noticeable disadvantage, though are not by any means impossible to win with.


In specific order:

Top Tier
Pit
Metaknight
Marth
Toon Link

High Tier
Snake
Wolf
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wario
Falco
Fox
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Luigi


Mid Tier
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Lucario
Olimar
Ike
Kirby
Pokémon Trainer
Ness
Samus
Mario
Sonic
Sheik
Zelda
Ice Climbers

Low Tier
Jigglypuff
Link
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Yoshi


Disclaimer: I didnt type this, I got this tier list from gamerreplay.com and it was typed by Sparky
 

kackamee

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
3,133
Location
Charlotte NC :)
NNID
SlushCream
3DS FC
3480-3017-1332
To the one that Illussionary posted; Ice Climbers are in no way worse than Sonic, Mario, Samus, Ness, PT, Ike, Olimar,(maybe) Luigi, Peach, or ZSS(maybe)
 

Pledge

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
27
Location
North Adams, Mass.
Top
----
Marth
Wolf
Toon Link

High
------
Fox
Pit
Falco
Meta Knight
Lucas
King Dedede

High-Mid
-----------
Olimar
Ike
Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
ROB
Pokemon Trainer
ZSS
Zelda

Mid
-----
Kirby
Peach
Luigi
Pikachu
Sheik
Lucario
Snake
Mario
Ice Climbers

Mid-Low
----------
Yoshi
Wario
Ness
Link

Low
-----
Bowser
Samus
Jigglypuff
Sonic

Bottom
---------
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf


Comments please :)
 

Tails the Fox

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
584
Location
Jersey.
Good list Pledge, my only disagreements are Luigi, Snake, Pikachu, Zelda, Lucas, and Wolf.

Luigi, Snake, Pikachu,and Lucas should be higher, all 4 of them High-Mid, Snake possibly High.

Zelda at the top of Mid.

and Wolf at the top of High.
 

SpeedAcE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
261
Location
Warner Robins, GA
I'm glad to see alot of people have been thinking the same things in regards to Falco. I may be a bit biased, but Falco just has so many tools that he can use plus various other pros. I'd say his only real weaknesses are his average speed compared to some of the other characters and the lack of a long range/fast KO attack.

-B> is insanely hard to edgegaurd. 9/10 times you will never get hit out of the phantasm if you are at all smart with it. Characters can prepare to hit Falco mid-stage, in which case you just descend to the ledge.

-Chaingrabs. 30-50% on most characters, ridiculously more on others. Chain grabs can also be directly linked into an offstage spike or Dash Atk to auto Usmash. Instant 40-60%.

-SHDL is effective against anyone without a reflecting move, and the shine can also be a spacing follow up. On that note, the shine does not count as a projectile so it cannot be reflected, it is very useful for disrupting oncoming opponents, trips people, destroys anyone elses spam game, and is a combo finisher as well as an edgegaurd. The shine shuts down the spam game of Olimar, Link, Toon Link, and a few others. (NOT Wolf, mind you)

-Almost all of his aerials are of above average priority, dair has insane priority, his aerials are solid and most of them are lasting hitboxes. Continous bair is an absolutely broken edgegaurd. The remainder of his aerials are solid.

-His tilts all come out very fast and are all useful, especially Utilt and Ftilt. Neutral A traps against walls and can always be followed up regardless of the opponents DI.
 

kackamee

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
3,133
Location
Charlotte NC :)
NNID
SlushCream
3DS FC
3480-3017-1332
Has everyone not noticed the new IC infinite, the smexy new chaingrabs, the smarter Nana, the new blizzard, the new squall/ blizzard combos, etc.?
I know ALOT of people hate the IC's but come on, the bottom of mid tier, really people?
If you see the half-decent IC's like these,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NLpF9rjnJMk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YJlcMx5nwEk&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JXYSOwk0T_k
and the many more I'm sure you would find if you at least look, you'd know the Ice climbers are at LEAST top-mid/low high tier.
It's all about the Icy love
Ice Climbers FTW!!!!

Kackame:)
 

Sheen

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
10
He is ridiculously fast, and his aerial game is godly. He is moving up the list and is now my second main. Try juggling someone with his aerial up A, then press up B to finish it off, you can kill someone at 50% or lower if you get them high enough. (you have to be good, but the potential is there, however I think people spamming him on the tops of their lists is because they think he is fast, and that is not why he is great. And just to clarify, it looks fancy but his neutral a on ground attack sucks balls.)
I see what youre saying...but still I air dodge through those airs all day...I'm not saying he's bad...but I don't see top or high tier at all...hes fast...cool...so is sonic...look what happened there..
 

Sheen

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
10
Also IC are good not anywhere near bottom or mid tier...Id say high...better than MK :laugh:
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
that wouldn't exactly dispove his point that pit is lame and easy to use, now would it?

btw, rainbow list fails. really hard. on a LOT of levels.
Thanks I love you too, next time point stuff out.

Dear TechnoMonster:

ROB is high if not top tier material. What are you smoking? ROB has an EXCELLENT offense! His fairs can be a WoP, his nair is a beast, his dair can spike, his up air is good for racking up damage, and his bair can recover and also KO.

On the ground, his dsmash is excellent for punishing, his fsmash can kill, his upsmash can kill opponents above you. Also, his tilts are great.

BTW, his side+B can do 14 percent. I can do that much consistently now (for those who don't know, you gotta press the B button rapidly during the move to make it actually do some damage). It reflects projectiles too! So with a little jump, you can start up the move early, reflect some projectiles and, if ya time it right, do a little damage too. Just gotta predict.

Oh, and ROB DOES have an excellent offense and has good grabs, good for getting your opponent into a kill situation.

Plus, his nair is good for killing.

Look him over again. He is NOT at the bottom of middle tier. I mean seriously now, he's MUCH better than that! He's one of the best characters in the game when used right dang nabbit. XP
You're right, all of Rob's moves are good-to-great. So are Wario's and Yoshi's. How do you beat Pit with Rob? How about a good Game and Watch? Perhaps you'd like to try your hand against Bardull's Marth? R.O.B. is a solid mid tier with very few amazing match up, some bad ones, and some favorable ones.

Well thought out and it has many valid points. But I disagree on some notes. Sheik at this point has no business being top tier, simply because her lack of an ability to kill. I disagree on Meta Knight but I have yet to play a good Metaknight. Everytime I've played one, they have lacked the ability to KO anyone. I'd drop him a tier level.
I just don't think the people in this thread have had the pleasure of playing against good Shiek and Meta players... sigh, disagree if you must, but Sheik has all the tools she needs, and Meta can kill at reasonable percents and deals damage well.
 

kackamee

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
3,133
Location
Charlotte NC :)
NNID
SlushCream
3DS FC
3480-3017-1332
Also IC are good not anywhere near bottom or mid tier...Id say high...better than MK :laugh:
Thank you! But it takes a very talented IC to beat MK but if you can get one grab on him, that life is gone. The only thing MK has against the IC's is slightly longer range and slightly faster attacks
 

Fletch

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Messages
3,046
Location
Shablagoo!!
● Top tier characters are just, well, top.
● High tier characters are just very solid characters with apparent strengths that put them above the others.
● Mid tier characters can compete with high tier ones very well, despite being edged out slightly.
● Low tier characters have some sort of glaring weakness which puts them at a noticeable disadvantage, though are not by any means impossible to win with.


In specific order:

Top Tier
Pit
Metaknight
Marth
Toon Link

High Tier
Snake
Wolf
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wario
Falco
Fox
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Luigi


Mid Tier
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Lucario
Olimar
Ike
Kirby
Pokémon Trainer
Ness
Samus
Mario
Sonic
Sheik
Zelda
Ice Climbers

Low Tier
Jigglypuff
Link
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Yoshi


Disclaimer: I didnt type this, I got this tier list from gamerreplay.com and it was typed by Sparky
This is one of the best lists posted so far, if you can ignore the fact that Olimar is not placed in top/high tier. Might want to consider ICs and G&W up and Wario and Peach down as well, but it's nice to see a newcomer who knows his stuff for a change.
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
1,897
Location
Spencer, MA
techno, im not really trying to say that rob is better than gw, cuz there is no way thats possible, gw beats rob in almost every category for sure. but what i am trying to say is that rob is a decent character, better than handling matchups compared to the middle tier, etc. when looking at it that way its hard to put him in mid.

i guess we just have slightly different ways of looking at how these are constructed and our placements are a little off accordingly.
 

xMizux

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
30
Location
San Jose, CA
i think this is almost right but this ios just IMO, plz dun hate me, i just heard about them
Top
Toon Link

High
Marth
Pit(?)
R.O.B
Meta Knight
ZSS
Squrtle
G&W
Wario
Ivysaur
Ike
Olimar

Mid
Falco
Mario
Lucas
DDD
Luigi
Snake
Bowser(?)
Wolf(?)
Ness(?)
Diddy(?)
Fox
Jigglypuff(?)
Lucario
IC(?)
Peach
Kirby(?)

Low
Charizard
Samus
Pikachu(?)
C.Falcon
Link
Sonic
Zelda
DK
Ganondorf(Old Manjoggingdorf)

Bottom
Yoshi
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
@TechnoMonster a couple pages back:

I had to favorite that tier list of yours. Too much awesome. I don't agree with everything (*coughSAMUScough*) but that was very, VERY well done.
 

uber_micro16

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
7
Diddy Kong should be higher on the list almost all of his attacks have comboing ability, he has a good air game with 3 spikes (dair, side wait then jump off, and rocketspiking), and the banana game is crazy. Also about his aerial games his fair and bair have great K.O. potential and his neutral can actually set your opponent up into an uair for a K.O. Also his ground games, his tilts are good, his forward tilt has good K.O. ability and can knock them off the stage to do some edgeguarding. His up tilts works well to start a juggle and works wonders on large opponents, it can also kill at like 160+. his down tilt has the advantage of getting the opponent into the air, so you could dtilit then do a quick utilt, then follow them in the air to kill. His smashes are good ,fsmash and dsmash are great K.O. moves also his dsmash can be used out of a shield for a surprise attack. In addition his usmash can get opponents into the air to follow up with some aerial attacks, and it can also kill at higher percents. Glide tossing only helps Diddy's Banana game too. his recovery is bananas (lulz) the rocket barreled when fully charged can get you back from almost anywhere and since the glitch was solved you can now jump and do an up b simultaneously *after being hit* and keep all the upward momentum. His side b is a great move for edguarding and for approaching cause it can be transitioned into a kung fu kick that has good priority. Lastly his nair has no lag when u touch the ground while doing it so you can transition smoothly into a grab, popgun, a combo etc. also when his dair is used really close to the ground you see a flash and diddy appears standing immediately, this can be used for mindgames, and some good ones too, if the opponent rolls in either follow with a side b kick, and if he side step or shields just grab.

Sorry for long post but I really think Diddy should be higher up on the list, at least high tier (IMHO top, but that still is up to the higher smash beings in the back room).
 

Yoshi'stheBombers7

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
436
Location
NH ... >_<
Why is Yoshi placed so low is almost every one of these tier sketches? I don't think he's as bad as everyone thinks. He's at the least better than DK, Samus, and Zelda. He's improved a ton from Melee.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
The Game II said:
I just lost the game.



In all seriousness, Lucas should be fairly high. Maybe low High Tier or top of the Mid Tier. I fear Lucas is getting ignored as he isn't a very popular main.

What a lot of people don't realize, however, is that just because their own character got buffed from Melee does not mean that that character should be High Tier. Let's look at Yoshi. Yoshi is amazingly better this time around. Yoshi fans are calling for a tier adjustment. However, what they don't realize is that every character got buffed, except for the obvious ones like falco, marth, fox, sheik etc.. All the "bad" characters are now decent. So when the Yoshi fans see their own character getting so good, they think back and say "Man, this Yoshi would **** anyone in Melee." And therefore think that Yoshi should be high tier.

This obviously is not the case. The Tier List must be based exclusively on Brawl.
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
techno, im not really trying to say that rob is better than gw, cuz there is no way thats possible, gw beats rob in almost every category for sure. but what i am trying to say is that rob is a decent character, better than handling matchups compared to the middle tier, etc. when looking at it that way its hard to put him in mid.

i guess we just have slightly different ways of looking at how these are constructed and our placements are a little off accordingly.
I respect this opinion; don't give up your side of the debate just because it's a tough to debate, or because our opinion doesn't essentially matter in the tier list debate. If we don't put our feelings on the line right now we won't be able to get through to the truth that quality players have experienced through feeling these characters out. It may feel like we're searching for an old love note in a pile of trash posting in this thread sometimes, but repressing your experience on the subject is extremely detrimental.

I can understand why we'd want R.O.B. higher... man it's hard to organize the mid tier, but I'll try to give a hard case for keeping it as I have it; I organized this list partly by starting from the bottom and pushing characters up. Where I thought a character had an advantage, I pushed him up a rank, until I could rank him/her no higher. The problem is, some characters are blocked from attaining higher tier status but intermediary characters who may not be that great, but appear better than the character in question. Though I argue from that perspective, I can easily see that it has flaws, but I can't see how to better organize it with less mistakes, do you follow?

I want to move Lucas up as well, considering his recent Florida tournament placing, and probably place Samus down to the high tier or even lower, but her spacing has so much potential!

How do you rate these undecidables against the solids like Marth, Mario, Meta, and DK?
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
what the hell is going on here, the last 20 or so pages have containted nothing but tier lists which are pretty much exactly the same as the ones before it except a few characters moved within the same tier category. looks to me everyones too scared to make a big claim or everyone else will call them a noob.

also lol @ that big coloured post putting luigi on bottom.
 

IAW

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
16
Snake

So I decided to do another in depth character analysis this time on snake. First of all before I go into detail of why I think he should be top tier, it is important to note that I am basing my tier lists off of characters potential as well as their current game play. Anyway the following is a list of reasons why I think snake should be top tier.

- Absolute number one reason is his neutral A combo and his Ftilt combo. These two moves are generally non-shield grabbable and knock back opponents as hard as many smash moves. They also come out very quickly.

- His back aerial has ridiculous range and hits hard. With the ability to turn around and jump while keeping your forward momentum makes this move really good.

- His Uair is very powerful and high priority; however, I find it hard to pull off Uair on anyone seeing how easy air dodge is in this one. Also, If an opponent is high up above you they are not going to try and come down with a Dair seeing as how easily this is shielded then immediately punished afterwards

- Short hop Dair is amazing. It cannot be shield grabbed and the last hit is a killing move. If all four hits get off (unlikely as it may be) it is an over 30% damage combo.

- His Usmash is good in combination with a dash. To my knowledge this move is also non-shield-grabbable unless power shielded. It is also good at ledge guarding (it's complicated how it can be used to ledge guard I'd have to show you a video, but believe me it's good).

- His running move is fairly good too simply because it often ends you up on the other side of your opponent

- His arsenal of weopanry (grenades, mines, and homing missile) are amazing camping tools against characters like marth or MK. However, they become less useful against people like falco and wolf. The lazers make the homing missile pretty much impossible, they blow up proximity mines, and they stop the trajectory of the grenades. It is good to note though, that the potential of this weaponry is still unknown. I can imagine some really sick combos coming out of grenades and mines.

- From watching many videos and playing myself, I have to say, I actually think the main reason for snake being good is his barrage of moves that stop shield campers. The few characters who don't shield camp (i.e. marth and MK) his ranged attacks seem sufficient to get him by.

Any thoughts?
 

IAW

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
16
Running tier list

So after three in depth characters analysis, I decided to make a "running tier list". Every time I come up with a new in depth character analysis, I will re-post my current tier list with pg number next to the name of the characters. My current tier list is as follows

Top:
- Falco - pg. 106
- Snake - pg. 118

High:
-Marth - pg. 113

Mid:
- none so far

Low:
- none so far

Bottom:
- none so far
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom