Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[hizzlum]

Snake's mind games conquer all, his projectiles used wisely can overwhelm the opponent and he has high knocback moves. His recovery is just itiful though, he is soo helpless that its like giving a dinner plate to an good edgeguarder like marth; marth will devour him inside out once he is off the stage

 

[diddymaster]

I think the starfox characters are going to be high along with marth and dedede and some others.

Diddy is going to be mid or high and rob and pit probably will too

 

[The_Dyne]

Just a random question, but are tier lists based on players of equal skill, or a character's maximum potential?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Just a random question, but are tier lists based on players of equal skill, or a character's maximum potential?

Tournament results.

Smooth Criminal

 

[The_Dyne]

A character's maximum potential can be demonstrated in tourneys, but equal skill is almost never found, so I'll assume the latter. Thank you.

 

[WuTangDude]

Tournament results.

Smooth Criminal

Couldn't have said it better myself.

This means to be stressed more often, because most people don't know this.

(No offense to the person who asked though, I applaud you for it)

 

[Conda]

It's not based solely 100% on tourney results. A link just wond a tourney, and it means jack all for his tier placement.
Critical thinking > you.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's not based solely 100% on tourney results. A link just wond a tourney, and it means jack all for his tier placement.
Critical thinking > you.

Uh, no.

A comprehensive tier listing is created AFTER months of tourney play.

Take your Link example. Okay, he won A tourney. Now, flash forward several months and about a hundred tournies later. Not many Links have won any of the tourneys that occurred during the time warp; in fact, we'll assume in an extreme case that the Link won only that tourney. In comparison to the five Sheiks, the ten Marths, the eleven Falcos, and whatever-other-characters-that-come-to-mind that placed first, Link's standing in the list would be pretty **** low in comparison.

Sooo...actual facts > petty assumptions.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Corigames]

Smooth: 1
Conda: 0

Duel 2, Heaven or Hell, LET'S ROCK!

 

[Conda]

I vote on Heaven. It has cream cheese.
What does Hell have? Spicy chip dip? Pffftt.

 

[MiraiGen]

You fail for not recognizing Guilty Gear references. You suck.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

You fail for not recognizing Guilty Gear references. You suck.

Guilty Gear's mad overrated though. Basic, entry-level play takes years to comprehend. That's too tedious if you ask me.
In other news, SRK's latest tier list makes me happy because it places Samus in the mid-tier.
Hell yeah she's in the mid-tier. She has no GAPING flaws other than her KO power. That isn't to say that aside from her KO power she's flawless. KO power is her only STAGGERING flaw.

 

[orintemple]

I vote on Heaven. It has cream cheese.
What does Hell have? Spicy chip dip? Pffftt.

Ouch, this is sad to read.


So what is actually happening in this thread right now, any actual tier list discussion or what?

 

[MiraiGen]

Guilty Gear's mad overrated though. Basic, entry-level play takes years to comprehend. That's too tedious if you ask me.

Or you're just too lazy to actually attempt it and instead make stupid comments.

Oh wait

KO power is her only STAGGERING flaw.

Stupid comments must be your 'thing,' then. Seriously - how is KO power being her "only" flaw make her not suck? KO power is practically half the game! Even more so, it's her "only staggering flaw?" Are you trying to say she has more flaws that are worse? Aren't you trying to tell us she's good?

I mean okay, sure, so she's got no KO power. But do you know why that makes her awful? Because she - unlike Kirby or Metaknight or Melee Shiek - doesn't have the speed or aerial game to be able to combo you off the edge or through the roof.

I don't like the changes either but jesus, deal with it, you're using a low-tier character. At least accept it and try working with it rather than trying to justify it.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

snip.

Wow. This isn't Gaia, you know. You don't have to pretend like you're better than anyone else, kiddo.
I said that Guilty Gear is too tedious if you ask me. That's an expression we use here in America that can also mean 'in my opinion,' or 'at least that's what I think.' If I were trying to present that as fact, then you'd have a reason to senselessly flame me, but I'm not. I'm a little too lazy and a little too much of a yomi-phile to enjoy a fighting game such as Guilty Gear that's reliant on execution over mindgames. If I'm a stupid person for expressing my opinion, then whatever, I guess I'm stupid. Would it be better if I listened to every word you say and consider it truth since your post count is higher than mine?

 

[Corigames]

Wow. This isn't Gaia, you know. You don't have to pretend like you're better than anyone else, kiddo.

Not to de-rail this amazing conversation or anything, but some of us really aren't pretending.

 

[orintemple]

Sooooo

How bout that tier list eh guys?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Not to de-rail this amazing conversation or anything, but some of us really aren't pretending.

Maybe if you stopped for a moment to consider the all-too-likely possibility that I'm not a ******** basketcase, but a fresh-faced nooblar who doesn't know anything about Smash and joined Smashboards to change that, you'd stop thinking you're a better person than someone else you'll never meet.
I convey what I hear about the game, because that's how I learn and it's served me well in the past. Numerous people have told me that KO power is the only staggering flaw in Samus's playstyle and that it keeps her out of the high tiers. I played her since Brawl came out, and I think to myself 'meh, that seems about right,' so I say the same thing on here. Now, since what I said is indeed wrong, I'd expect someone to just correct me and say 'uh, nah, dude, she also can't perform boundary kills like Kirby and Meta Knight can.' To this I'd respond 'oh, really? So that's another reason why Samus is always ranked so low. Good stuff, I'll have to learn to get around that.' However, apparently here in the land of 'I'm a better person than you,' that doesn't apply, now does it?
I'm confused as hell. This internet thing is making my brain hurt.

 

[Corigames]

Then leave, take some Advil, and cancel your ISP.

the internet is full of *****. If you don't like to get ****ed by those *****, then maybe you should go elsewhere. Perhaps you should go to Hyrule Temple and play with items on high for the rest of your smash days so that people who know what they are talking about, when it comes to serious play, don't offend you when you are wrong.

Get some internet balls. Please.

Oh, and, why does this thread exist? There are no tiers to discuss right now.

 

[HybridEntity]

Samus also suffers with her poor rolling dodge, leaving her open to attack. I guess you could work around that by spot dodging, which for her is good.

I agree with those that say C. Falcon sucks. Mainly because of the poor approach. Unless your opponent is in the air its hard to approach with anything other than his weak dash attack. So then whats the point of having the 2nd fastest run speed in the game? Maybe for running away.

Yoshi is also crap. He has a lot of priority on his attacks but its not enough. One main thing that sucks is his shield. Because its replaced with the egg it has different properties, one of them being slow retracting speed.

 

[Browny]

3 tiers coz I feel like it, with some of my reasonings


IN MY OPINION

Top -
Snake
G+W (holy **** anyone can pick up and play G&W and **** face)
MK
TL
Marth
Pikachu (chain grabbing is insane, very few can escape it and QAC means theres no running away from pikachu)
Falco
ROB
Pit
Wolf (idk if he deserves to be here anymore, but he can still camp with the best of them)

High -
Lucario (outranges almost everyone with his tilts, aerials and smashes, can chain grab many characters to ~35%, some to 80%, and aura sphere can KO easily once he gets beyond 100%)
Lucas
Fox
Diddy
Zelda (I would put her lower, but she has far too much KO potential (10 moves that KO <110% lol)
Olimar (I thought he was broken, until I played on battlefield where he cant camp like on FD, much easier to deal with on most stages)
Luigi
Ness (fair and dash attack are still incredible, PKT2 kills as early as 50%)
Kirby
Wario (wow is he underestimated, its very rare you fight a good wario mainer)
Dedede (against characters who he cant CG, who typically tend to be the faster ones, hes got nothing besides his weight going for him)
Zamus
Sonic (Hes won 3 big time tourneys, that’s gotta be worth a lot more than most characters who are considered good but haven’t won anything to prove it)


Mid -
Link (his f-smash is insane :O and watch some of the pro videos in the link boards, he can seriously own in the right hands)
Shiek
Mario
Bowser (same for DK, I know theyre massively buffed from melee, but they still get wasted by camping)
DK
Jigglypuff
Ike (tournament results boards don’t show too many high placed ikes…)
Peach
Samus (KO moves are just so short ranged)
PT (yes they are all good individually, but when you are forced to swap just to keep the fight fair, many characters destroy one or two of the 3, especially charizard)
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Captain falcon (at least ganon aerials which can KO, and are 10x easier to land then the knee)


Left out ice climbers coz with their infinites, imo they’re right up near the top. But if infinites are banned who knows how that’ll change their game.


FLAME AWAY!!

inbe4 emblem lord's essay on why marth is top
and please dont say 'xxx is too high/low' because no one here knows anyones relative positions, including you.
--edit-- i mean you can argue why you think a characters position is wrong, but please dont state anything as a fact

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Samus also suffers with her poor rolling dodge, leaving her open to attack. I guess you could work around that by spot dodging, which for her is good.

I agree with those that say C. Falcon sucks. Mainly because of the poor approach. Unless your opponent is in the air its hard to approach with anything other than his weak dash attack. So then whats the point of having the 2nd fastest run speed in the game? Maybe for running away.

Yoshi is also crap. He has a lot of priority on his attacks but its not enough. One main thing that sucks is his shield. Because its replaced with the egg it has different properties, one of them being slow retracting speed.

Yoshi's shield also has good properties too, such as complete I-frames during his roll or something like that. I don't know, I don't play him.

Edit: oh yeah, and nice to see some people putting lucario in high tier.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Then leave, take some Advil, and cancel your ISP.

the internet is full of *****. If you don't like to get ****ed by those *****, then maybe you should go elsewhere. Perhaps you should go to Hyrule Temple and play with items on high for the rest of your smash days so that people who know what they are talking about, when it comes to serious play, don't offend you when you are wrong.

Get some internet balls. Please.

Oh, and, why does this thread exist? There are no tiers to discuss right now.

*shudders* I'm begging you, don't make me relive Hyrule Temple. I'm trying to pretend that it didn't come back in Brawl. I'm trying to forget that it ever even existed. I had a friend with whom I'd play Melee a lot, and he'd whine and moan unless we played on that same freakin' stage every time...god...I hate that stage so much....
And the thread probably exists because talk of tiers is going to go down no matter what, and speculation will run rampant for ages until the powers that be, which in this case I think is the BRoom guys, release their judgement upon the masses. I don't get why it is that so many fighting game players I encounter are really into tiers, but that's sort of the way it's always been on my end of the stick. Tiers determine a character's popularity to a certain extent as well, at least in the circles of games with whom I've played. There's been a crapload of folks I've met who played characters just because they're high-tier. I know that there were a few in the Melee days who did that with Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth. The same applies to other fighting games, most notably Marvel vs. Capcom 2, in which the mid- and low-tier characters are never used at all, and Street Fighter III: Third Strike, where you'll see a lot more Yuns, Kens, and Chun-Lis than Ibukis, Remys, or Elenas.
A lot of people use tiers to make several of their gameplay-based decisions, so that's why I think so many people consider them so important. I could be wrong, though.
EDIT: Holy hell my purple text is hard to read.

 

[orintemple]

3 tiers coz I feel like it, with some of my reasonings


IN MY OPINION

Top -
Snake
G+W (holy **** anyone can pick up and play G&W and **** face)
MK
TL
Marth
Pikachu (chain grabbing is insane, very few can escape it and QAC means theres no running away from pikachu)
Falco
ROB
Pit
Wolf (idk if he deserves to be here anymore, but he can still camp with the best of them)

High -
Lucario (outranges almost everyone with his tilts, aerials and smashes, can chain grab many characters to ~35%, some to 80%, and aura sphere can KO easily once he gets beyond 100%)
Lucas
Fox
Diddy
Zelda (I would put her lower, but she has far too much KO potential (10 moves that KO <110% lol)
Olimar (I thought he was broken, until I played on battlefield where he cant camp like on FD, much easier to deal with on most stages)
Luigi
Ness (fair and dash attack are still incredible, PKT2 kills as early as 50%)
Kirby
Wario (wow is he underestimated, its very rare you fight a good wario mainer)
Dedede (against characters who he cant CG, who typically tend to be the faster ones, hes got nothing besides his weight going for him)
Zamus
Sonic (Hes won 3 big time tourneys, that’s gotta be worth a lot more than most characters who are considered good but haven’t won anything to prove it)


Mid -
Link (his f-smash is insane :O and watch some of the pro videos in the link boards, he can seriously own in the right hands)
Shiek
Mario
Bowser (same for DK, I know theyre massively buffed from melee, but they still get wasted by camping)
DK
Jigglypuff
Ike (tournament results boards don’t show too many high placed ikes…)
Peach
Samus (KO moves are just so short ranged)
PT (yes they are all good individually, but when you are forced to swap just to keep the fight fair, many characters destroy one or two of the 3, especially charizard)
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Captain falcon (at least ganon aerials which can KO, and are 10x easier to land then the knee)


Left out ice climbers coz with their infinites, imo they’re right up near the top. But if infinites are banned who knows how that’ll change their game.


FLAME AWAY!!

inbe4 emblem lord's essay on why marth is top
and please dont say 'xxx is too high/low' because no one here knows anyones relative positions, including you.
--edit-- i mean you can argue why you think a characters position is wrong, but please dont state anything as a fact

Where is low and bottom tier....?

Your tiers are way too crowded you need to add more and spread out the cast. There is no way everyone can be in the first 3 tiers, that is an impossibility. Even if the gap between tiers isn't very much, that slight difference will still need to be shown in the names of tiers. There has never been a tier lsit with only 3 tiers.

I realize you said, 3 tiers cause you feel like it but seriously, no.

 

[MiraiGen]

Wow. This isn't Gaia, you know. You don't have to pretend like you're better than anyone else, kiddo.
I said that Guilty Gear is too tedious if you ask me. That's an expression we use here in America that can also mean 'in my opinion,' or 'at least that's what I think.' If I were trying to present that as fact, then you'd have a reason to senselessly flame me, but I'm not. I'm a little too lazy and a little too much of a yomi-phile to enjoy a fighting game such as Guilty Gear that's reliant on execution over mindgames. If I'm a stupid person for expressing my opinion, then whatever, I guess I'm stupid. Would it be better if I listened to every word you say and consider it truth since your post count is higher than mine?

You make a half-***** statement about something you don't know about, I call you on it. Yes, you did present it as a fact. "Guilty Gear's mad overrated though. Basic, entry-level play takes years to comprehend." You are stating that as fact. I call you on it. Don't pussyfoot out of it just because I did.

But, okay, sure. If you want to back out of it using generic, logical fallacy counter-arguments of "It's just my opinion" and "You just think you're better than me," then fine.

EDIT: Hell, if you joined SmashBoards to find out more about Smash Bros, then you should probably try actually applying half of the stuff you're talking about or heard about. If you think that it's her only weakness, then find out how she does KO. Just talking about it without any sort of practical knowledge irks the everloving **** out of me, and I called you on it because you didn't even bother to do anything except assume. Christ, if you're going to be so defensive about Samus' skill, at least find out what works.

Samus also suffers with her poor rolling dodge, leaving her open to attack. I guess you could work around that by spot dodging, which for her is good.

I always wondered about her rolling dodge. It seemed like it was too slow, but they did it anyway so they could use the Morph Ball reference. It's too sluggish to be any use.

Your tiers are way too crowded you need to add more and spread out the cast. There is no way everyone can be in the first 3 tiers, that is an impossibility. Even if the gap between tiers isn't very much, that slight difference will still need to be shown in the names of tiers. There has never been a tier lsit with only 3 tiers.

Agreed. It - at minimum - has to consist of Top, High, Mid, and Low. Bottom is kind of 'only-if-needed', but it's hand to know who's the worst.

 

[Browny]

i didnt put more because i cant split the top.

every character in top, imo can own in the right hands. they can counter others in top tier and are countered themselves. if i had to split top, i couldnt put snake at top, as many do simply because pikachu owns him harder than anyone has ever been owned before, and i wouldnt put other tpically high tiers there like pit and rob because they have won tourneys and can camp incredibly well.

if top has 10, i didnt think there was a need for 4 other tiers with 8 or so each, would look kinda silly.

 

[MiraiGen]

every character in top, imo can own in the right hands.

But, that's insane.

I mean you can't split up tiers based on the information of "in the right hands". Everyone is great in the right hands. The tier list is designed to find out which characters are the best and in which order in said capable hands.

That's the entire point. This system wouldn't be in place for - oh I don't know - Guilty Gear and Street Fighter and Dead or Alive and Smash Bros and King of Fighters and Tekken for the last ten or so years and not separate the characters based on overall power.

 

[Browny]

hmm i should have said anyones hands. i mean it like, i can pick up and play everyone in my top list and do very well with. ive got next to no experience with marth, G+W, TL, MK and Pit but that doesnt put me at any disadvantage to the people i put in my high list. same applies for my high vs mid

 

[MiraiGen]

But the tier list is designed based on competitive capabilities - not the ability to pick-up-and-play any character. Easy to learn does not ever mean best in game.

And it's completely ridiculous to think otherwise.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this is the tier list, if you took every character, and found the best player in the world with each character. and made them all play each other round robin style. the tiers would be each chars record from best to worst. if the best MK player in the world could beat 30 of the other chars. being played by the best players in the world for each individual char. than he is top tier. that is how the tiers are made.

 

[MiraiGen]

Basically, yes.

And until we have enough tournaments behind us - and until the BRoomers go through about 36 more weeks of discussion - we're not going to have anything more than speulatory tier lists. But they're fun.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Some people seem to be forgetting that tier lists are based on the characters abilities, not the players abilities. Also here's the new SRK list. I initially placed characters in the tiers based on how well they do in various areas, and their overall match-ups. I ordered the characters within the tier based on how well they do against the other characters within that tier. If you need me to rationalize any of my placements then just ask, don't be hostile.

Top:
Snake
Toon Link
Wolf
Marth
Falco
Metaknight

High:
Pit
King Dedede
Game & Watch
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas

Mid:
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Charizard

Low:
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Wario
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Mario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

 

[TehBo49]

Why is Wario low tier? Also, I thnk Diddy should be at the top of middle. He's good, but often overrated.

 

[SantaClaus]

Where is low and bottom tier....?

Your tiers are way too crowded you need to add more and spread out the cast. There is no way everyone can be in the first 3 tiers, that is an impossibility. Even if the gap between tiers isn't very much, that slight difference will still need to be shown in the names of tiers. There has never been a tier lsit with only 3 tiers.

I realize you said, 3 tiers cause you feel like it but seriously, no.

With the current knowledge of Brawl's gameplay, I think making only 3 tiers (FOR NOW) is a good idea, personally. It is much harder o make the fine-tuned distinctions this early in the game's metagame.

 

[St. Viers]

Why is Wario low tier? Also, I thnk Diddy should be at the top of middle. He's good, but often overrated.

Wanna give some reasons?

re SRK list
I like this. I'm not sure if pika should be higher--I'm guessing it's because of his lack of range that he's below G&W and ROB?

 

[BDawgPHD]

Some people seem to be forgetting that tier lists are based on the characters abilities, not the players abilities, even though the character's abilities are mostly an extension of the player's abilities.

Snake wouldn't be broken if good players didn't know how to make ingenious setups with him, and Meta Knight wouldn't be broken if players didn't use his speed, range, and fierceness to it's fullest extent. Meta Knight isn't exactly a stellar character ability-wise, he's somewhat like Sheik was in Melee, extremely easy to use, but not unbeatable by any means. Players make characters good, not the other way around.

 

[Corigames]

Why does everyone keep putting Snake at the Top of EVERY list?

I have yet to see 1 Snake that could take on my Pit and win. His projectiles are useless against Pit as he can out spam, catch, or reflect any range Snake has. It's not hard to keep one eye on the mines at all times. It's not that big of a deal. If you keep your distance, his CQC doesn't really help. He's slower. his recovery is gimp-able.

It seems that the only thing he has is the dash glitch, and it's not like it's that hard to see coming. You can, and I have, easily punished people out of it. So why? Why is everyone saying he's so good?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Just because you haven't faced a good snake doesnt mean he's not a likely Top Tier <_<.


It's simple, Snake so far seems to have the best metagame potential from what we've seen, and is dominating in Both the US and Japan

 

[BDawgPHD]

coreygames is a ****head.

Really? I think he's more of a peckernut.

EDIT: This isn't me fabricating imaginary conversations with myself. Rather, this is the result of a real life discussion between me and St. Viers.

[ St.Viers]
CORRECTION:
coreygames an egotistical ****head.

Just because you can beat your friend's snake with pit means nothing. Yes, pit is lucky in that he has a better chance than most, but his lack of kill moves, short melee range, and light weight make it hard despite the fact that he has a few advantages other characters don't. And just because snake has one match where he only has a slight advantage doesn't mean he isn't good.

Stop trying to stick up for your main <_< Pit is good, but snake is also undeniably good, which you proved by saying that "I can beat him", and ignoring saying why he shouldn't be top tier.[/St.Viers]

 

[Jigglymaster]

Can sombody please tell me why Ness and Lucario are higher on the teir list than Jigglypuff?