Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Dizzynecro]

Like what?

Range?

Smooth Criminal

Range, damage, good killing moves, very good projectile.
That good enough?

 

[Blad01]

Agreed. Ivysaur is not crap. He's just a little bit laggy with certain moves, and has a poor recovery.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Snake and Meta Knight are top.

Maybe Kirby and Falco too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People need to let it go already.

Her damage isn't good and neither is her projectile.

All she has is range.

Also kirby isn't top. Maybe high tier.

 

[BibulousDan]

Alright, you can say that Snake and Meta are at the top, but I think that that this guys at God tier

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9422/image0ht3.jpg

Nuff said

 

[Devil7]

I would definintly say snake is top tier along with the space animals. MK is high not top. Some low charcters got buffed like bowser and kirby so id'e say mid for them. Falcon and Samus got the nerf so bottom mid. Diddy is freakin sweet so he goes with the space animals. Sonic is bottom but hes still cool and fun to play. Toon link is high and so is shiek with the flamin' marth and friendly ike.

 

[Contrary]

I would definintly say snake is top tier along with the space animals. MK is high not top. Some low charcters got buffed like bowser and kirby so id'e say mid for them. Falcon and Samus got the nerf so bottom mid. Diddy is freakin sweet so he goes with the space animals. Sonic is bottom but hes still cool and fun to play. Toon link is high and so is shiek with the flamin' marth and friendly ike.

Again, Wolf is good but not top. And putting Fox before MK/Marth/TL is wrong wrong wrong!

If anything MK/Marth/TL ARE top with the space animals in high tier, maybe with Falco up top.

EDIT: Btw, nice WoW sig? Hah.

 

[DarkKnight077]

I would definintly say snake is top tier along with the space animals. MK is high not top. Some low charcters got buffed like bowser and kirby so id'e say mid for them. Falcon and Samus got the nerf so bottom mid. Diddy is freakin sweet so he goes with the space animals. Sonic is bottom but hes still cool and fun to play. Toon link is high and so is shiek with the flamin' marth and friendly ike.

Sonic is not bottom. He has some good kill moves. He has one of the best recovery in the games, plus he can recover many ways, the Spring, the Fair, all three Spin-Dashes can go to the edge. Also the spring can gimp some characters and plus he has kill moves. Plus he actually gets stronger with the stutter step. : P So calling Sonic a bottom tier is wrong if anything he's like low-mid to at least mid-mid.

I don't see Fox being up in the high. He doesn't have the qualities as say Falco. Bowser is high-low to least low-mid.

...How is Shiek high? Wtf? Shiek is so low to at least low-mid.

Lmao.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Sonic is high in mid tier. Metaknight's high tier, not top. I'll probably end up getting flamed for this post anyway. -_-

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

People need to let it go already.

Her damage isn't good and neither is her projectile.

All she has is range.

Also kirby isn't top. Maybe high tier.

nope.

damage is fine.

projectile is useful.

so... nope.

 

[St. Viers]

Swormaster, explain, don't dictate.

re: space animals:

falco is great because he has a decent recovery, great projectile, good aerials, good tilts. good smashes.
wolf is okay because he has a bad recovery, good projectile, great aerials, good tilts, and smashes
fox is okay because he has a decent recovery, meh projectile, okay aerials, decent tilts, and good smashes.

 

[Manny G.]

Marth is on the toppest of the top tier followed by..........
Wolf
Fox
Shiek and......
Luc-uh i mean Sonic

 

[BDawgPHD]

actually, coreygames would probably rock my world. but that's ok because he's an ***, so i still win!

i agree that ivysaur is "mid tier"-ish. i've said that multiple times, actually. ivysaur just has too much going for it to be in the freaking bottom tier with ganondorf and falcon.

If he's so good, why doesn't he have half a clue -_____-

I mean, that's like if someone who thinks MK isn't bad **** insane was any good......it's such a major contradiction.

Also, Marth isn't the toppiest of the top tier, although I'd say he's top.

 

[rubiksfriend]

I'm sick of spacies, but they're probably top with Marth. Ike at highest of High Tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Look for those of u who think ivysaur is mid tier, name me characters worse than them besides C falcon and gannon (cuz i know thats what most people will say), and tell me why they are worse, and i will attempt to disprove your arguments (and if u say yoshi, u have no idea what you are talking about).

 

[Kiwikomix]

Look for those of u who think ivysaur is mid tier, name me characters worse than them besides C falcon and gannon (cuz i know thats what most people will say), and tell me why they are worse, and i will attempt to disprove your arguments (and if u say yoshi, u have no idea what you are talking about).

Seriously I'm getting sick of this.
Ivysaur is better than the two you mentioned, better than Jiggz, better than Peach, better than Wario. And, although Yoshi deserves respect, Ivysaur owns him.

 

[St. Viers]

@burntsocks:
Jiggz. She gets completely out-ranged.:

@kiwikomix:

Wario: please explain. Her projectile is too slow to deal with him, and his mobility lets him get close to her. He also has a great recovery (unless he's bad enough to leave the bike on stage), so I' must be missing something. His downthrow is also excellent against her due to her size/weight.

Yoshi:? Explain, as I don't have much yoshi experience.

And maybe ivysaur> sonic?

 

[flyingpork002]

Diddy Kong is definetly top tier imo. I think that goes along with toon link, marth, pit, and metaknight. Diddy kong has the best projectile in the game, NANERS!! as well as the best dash attack, good speed and lagless, powerful areals. He also has 3 spikes, a good recovery and 2 decent KO moves which can kill at about 130. Toon link is very easy to pick up, he has awesome b special moves because they are all very useful and versitile. His attacks are quick and have good range for such a fast character. His areals are very powerful, and the second hit of his fsmash is good. Marth has excellent range and power on all of his attacks and a good running speed and areal game. His recovery is decent and his specials (mainly side b) are usefull. Pit is fast, in both running, and attacking. He has the most spammable projectile in the game, a reflector, a spammable edgeguard/normal move, and the best recovery in the game. He also has good KO moves for someone as fast as him. Metaknight is just pure speed. he has decent range because of his sword, and the fastest attacks in the game because they have little or no startup lag and landing lag. His dsmash has no startup lag which makes it impossible to shield, and his fsmash can be used in opportune moments. Combine this with metaknights amazing mach tornado (can rack up 20 damage in one move) and his awesome recovery, and weve got a top tier character.

 

[butlersmashking]

no way man. game and watch freaking owns. You wouldn't believe what i've seen people like velocity do with him at smashtastrophy 2

 

[St. Viers]

flyingpork, you are confusing easy to use with "good." His bananas are by not means the best ptojectile, as they can be caught,/used against you.

Pit isn't top tier. He's too light, and lacks kill moves/range.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Diddy Kong is definetly top tier imo. I think that goes along with toon link, marth, pit, and metaknight. Diddy kong has the best projectile in the game, NANERS!! as well as the best dash attack, good speed and lagless, powerful areals. He also has 3 spikes, a good recovery and 2 decent KO moves which can kill at about 130. Toon link is very easy to pick up, he has awesome b special moves because they are all very useful and versitile. His attacks are quick and have good range for such a fast character. His areals are very powerful, and the second hit of his fsmash is good. Marth has excellent range and power on all of his attacks and a good running speed and areal game. His recovery is decent and his specials (mainly side b) are usefull. Pit is fast, in both running, and attacking. He has the most spammable projectile in the game, a reflector, a spammable edgeguard/normal move, and the best recovery in the game. He also has good KO moves for someone as fast as him. Metaknight is just pure speed. he has decent range because of his sword, and the fastest attacks in the game because they have little or no startup lag and landing lag. His dsmash has no startup lag which makes it impossible to shield, and his fsmash can be used in opportune moments. Combine this with metaknights amazing mach tornado (can rack up 20 damage in one move) and his awesome recovery, and weve got a top tier character.

Diddy has best projectile? It's actually one of the worst because a lot of characters can just run underneath it, unless you can somehow charge it up without getting hit. And his bananas can be used against him. What's the point of three spikes if one works just fine?
Counter is the most useful of Marth's specials, and the rest have less of a point to them.
Falco's lazers are far more spammable than Pit's arrows.
Pit for high tier, Diddy for lower high or upper mid. Marth and MK are already assumed to be top.

 

[flyingpork002]

no way man. game and watch freaking owns. You wouldn't believe what i've seen people like velocity do with him at smashtastrophy 2

all of that stuff that I said above, I believe is the most acurate description of who the top tier characters should be and why. I would maybe put game and watch in high mid or high tier. Also, I left olimar out of my top tier because of his poor recovery, and if your playing against someone who knows properly how to counter an olimar, its very hard. Once they know how to control the match, you are screwed. Ike was also left out because all of his moves have tremendous lag, and as long as your playing a good defensive character, it is very hard to get off some of your smashes because of outrageous. I think though that ike and olimar should both be high tier. High tier should also contain pikachu imo because of his speed, and ranged attacks. Perhaps also zss, spacies, and luigi. Luigi is not that bad, all of his areals are lagless and perhaps the best in the game. He also has excellent recovery, and powerful attacks and smashes. Plus his killer acid trip of a final smash is just too much to be looked over. Even without the awesome final smash, luigi should still be high tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Seriously I'm getting sick of this.
Ivysaur is better than the two you mentioned, better than Jiggz, better than Peach, better than Wario. And, although Yoshi deserves respect, Ivysaur owns him.

Definately not wario. Wario is a good character, amazing air control, good ways to kill, good comboing. Wario is by FAR the better characterPeach is a pretty good character, with massive range on her ftilt, powerful aerials, glide tossing. She's nerfed but better than ivy imo. Yoshi beats ivysaur, in the matchup and as a character over all. I dont feel like talking about yoshi again, u can believe what u want, ive explained it as much as i feel like doing. It's partially biased im sure, but the thing is most people dont know anything about yoshi. I know many matchups, and most everything known about him, so im just presenting my opinion from somebody who actually knows something about yoshi. Im not sure about jiggs. She can still WoP pretty well i think but i dont rly know much about her, so ill say that u guys could be right. I like ivysaur, i do, and i think that he/she is decent, but most characters are better. And with that im probably done with this thread. Most people here dont know what they are talking about, and im done trying to explain stuff.

 

[flyingpork002]

watch PaOl use diddy kong, the naners are just amazing. Plus diddy kong is one of the best comboers and the bannanas help that out as well. Three spikes is nice because all of them are different. Jetpack spike is if your down at the bottom and need to get up. Dair is for when your right above them near the surface of the stage. Over B can be used when you are out of jumps and they are in front, or behind you. It is also a great recovery move because you can still use jetpack after that. Watch PaOl's diddy, diddy kong owns.

 

[flyingpork002]

besides, more about bananas, what is the thing that everyone hates most about this game? TRIPPING! and diddy kong is the only one who actually has the power to invoke tripping. I'd say thats a plus. Besides they are great for some of the best mindgames in the game. Also, if they pick up the bananas, diddy's dash attack should get them right back as well as setting up for a nice combo.

 

[flyingpork002]

also, sorry for leaving dedede out of my high tier disscusion, he is also awesome. He has great recovery, especially for a heavyweight, his fsmash is the most powerful in the game. His over b comes out fast and can be used as a good buffer zone or as an attack. He also has the best grabs in the game, and very good spacing moves to keep faster characters at bay. Dedede is probably high high tier or maybe even top tier.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ St. Viers

Wario < Ivysaur because Wario is still really slow. Razor Leaf is great when spammed, though not to the extent of some other projectiles, and can still occasionally stop Wario for a little bit. In addition, Wario has terrible lag after each smash attack (especially d-smash, what is he thinking breakdancing in the middle of a fight?) so he's far more easily punished than Ivysaur. His recovery, like Pit's, is great for covering distance but is quite easily stopped due to a lot of vulnerability after he's jumped off the bike. Also, since his upB only goes straight up, he is vulnerable afterwards. If he tries to go down low and sweetspot the edge with upB, Ivysaur can wait until the animation is almost finished and immediately tether to edgecamp.

Yoshi has pretty good range, but Ivy's is better. Ivysaur doesn't usually try to ledgeguard so Yoshi's SA frames on his second jump are nothing special for recovery, and instead just end up with an f-smash to the face from the edge of the stage. Razor Leaf is far more problematic for Yoshi than the eggs are for Ivysaur, since it forces Yoshi to take to the air, and aerials are far from Yoshi's strong suit. I don't necessarily think Ivysaur is "better" than Yoshi, but she destroys him in a matchup. And I do believe Yoshi is consistently underrated, it's something green lizard-dinosaur things seem to have in common.

I'm not too sure about Sonic though. There are tons of people out there trying to improve him, probably more so than any other "bad" character, so he'll probably get better soon. For now I guess it's safe to say Ivy > Sonic, especially in matchups.

 

[BDawgPHD]

@ St. Viers

Wario < Ivysaur because Wario is still really slow. Razor Leaf is great when spammed, though not to the extent of some other projectiles, and can still occasionally stop Wario for a little bit. In addition, Wario has terrible lag after each smash attack (especially d-smash, what is he thinking breakdancing in the middle of a fight?) so he's far more easily punished than Ivysaur. His recovery, like Pit's, is great for covering distance but is quite easily stopped due to a lot of vulnerability after he's jumped off the bike. Also, since his upB only goes straight up, he is vulnerable afterwards. If he tries to go down low and sweetspot the edge with upB, Ivysaur can wait until the animation is almost finished and immediately tether to edgecamp.

Yoshi has pretty good range, but Ivy's is better. Ivysaur doesn't usually try to ledgeguard so Yoshi's SA frames on his second jump are nothing special for recovery, and instead just end up with an f-smash to the face from the edge of the stage. Razor Leaf is far more problematic for Yoshi than the eggs are for Ivysaur, since it forces Yoshi to take to the air, and aerials are far from Yoshi's strong suit. I don't necessarily think Ivysaur is "better" than Yoshi, but she destroys him in a matchup. And I do believe Yoshi is consistently underrated, it's something green lizard-dinosaur things seem to have in common.

I'm not too sure about Sonic though. There are tons of people out there trying to improve him, probably more so than any other "bad" character, so he'll probably get better soon. For now I guess it's safe to say Ivy > Sonic, especially in matchups.

Wario doesn't just have smash attacks, nub. Of course his range is bad, but his movements are awkward enough so that they're not telegraphed, and his air speed is godly, meaning he can WoP pretty well and just generally move in the air, which is very important.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Seriously I'm getting sick of this.
Ivysaur is better than the two you mentioned, better than Jiggz, better than Peach, better than Wario. And, although Yoshi deserves respect, Ivysaur owns him.

umm... Ivysaur better than peach, Wario, and Jiggs? yeah, NO.

 

[DarkKnight077]

As I said before Pit is high tier, his amazing recovery and the fact his arrows just allow him to plow down most of the competition.

Yoshi is just bad overall. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's bottom. With out of the DJC Yoshi is really nothing he's actually worse than Capt Falcon and Link combined.

I'm not too sure about Sonic though. There are tons of people out there trying to improve him, probably more so than any other "bad" character, so he'll probably get better soon. For now I guess it's safe to say Ivy > Sonic, especially in matchups.

This loses all your credibility now. If you don't know about certain character don't post about him.

Better soon?

His recovery is up there with Meta, Snake and Pit. In fact he's probably top three, his Ariels own, his speed is just wow, the only thing he lacks is killing power. But so does Pit, however unlike Pit Sonic is very light.

He isn't top nor high but he does get him high-mid tier though.

 

[St. Viers]

Dark KNight: completely untrue. Yoshi is different without the djc, but not terrible. Also, pits arrows don't plow through anything. >_<

kiwi: wario isn'r slow, which you seem to think. He also has great approaches due to bike (wheelie), and his great mobility. His f-air>razor leaf, and he can approach with it.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Dark KNight: completely untrue. Yoshi is different without the djc, but not terrible. Also, pits arrows don't plow through anything. >_<

Different =/= Terrible.

Capt Falcon is different but he's terrible. Without the DJC what is Yoshi? Nothing really.

Pits arrows control the game. Sure his arrows aren't the strongest and you can dodge them easily. However if you can hit them they can rack up damage which his strongest strength about him in the first place. Sure Pit isn't the strongest but he deserves much more than say mid-tier. He is really low-high he has enough qualities that get him there.

 

[Vash_15]

My tier opinions

Pit is Top tier (recovery mixed wuith his forward smash tilt and back air are wow, his arrows can distract and confuse people.

Marth is still high tier, his killing power and speed are stil god.

Zelda and Sheik are both Mid tier, Zelda's better and Sheik is worse.

Sonic is probably mid tier. His speed and recovery are good but he has trouble racking up damage quickly and killing easily under 175%

Pikachu is probably high tier becaause he is much stronger and his thunder pwns

This is all I got so far.

 

[flyingpork002]

howcome no one replied to my mesages about diddy kong and tiers

 

[SaxDude93]

I'm sick of spacies, but they're probably top with Marth. Ike at highest of High Tier.

No

The fact that Ike hasn't placed very high in Japan OR US tourneys so far, has average to below average matchups, very slow and laggy attack speed wise on most of his moves, and his overall predictabiliy doesn't mean he's all that great.

Also he's just too predictable in most situations to use against the best of the best. His smashes aside from his down smash are just too slow to use over his respective tilts, that have considerably less power. Quick draw recoveries can be gimped easly by air-dodging in the way of it (It seems it registers as a hit and stops his momentum) or by just simply airdodging, and a good edgehogging is all that's needed to stop Aether recoveries. All this aerials with the exception of Bair is just too easy to read and Air dodge. He's been doing well below-average in the few tourneys we've had and his matchups aren't that impressive.

Unrelated, but Ness>Lucas

 

[Deleted member]

@ St. Viers



Yoshi has pretty good range, but Ivy's is better. Ivysaur doesn't usually try to ledgeguard so Yoshi's SA frames on his second jump are nothing special for recovery, and instead just end up with an f-smash to the face from the edge of the stage. Razor Leaf is far more problematic for Yoshi than the eggs are for Ivysaur, since it forces Yoshi to take to the air, and aerials are far from Yoshi's strong suit. I don't necessarily think Ivysaur is "better" than Yoshi, but she destroys him in a matchup. And I do believe Yoshi is consistently underrated, it's something green lizard-dinosaur things seem to have in common.
.

The only thing correct about this is the underrated part. If ur not gonna ledgeguard, ill just grab the ledge and ledge camp with ECEs. Yoshi can just ETS(egg toss slide) which means ill run back and throw and egg giving me a slide and tossing an egg if u try to out spam me, allowing me to avoid the leaf and hit u. YOshi can play the match defensively, and ivysaur doesnt have much of an approach. Ivy can bair spam all it wants, yoshi doesnt have any need to approach. ARRR i was supposed to leave -.-

Edit: Darkknight: Without shine combos, what is falco. Oh i guess he must suck too. Falco is low tier guys, he lost something from melee. What is marth without his godly range? Oh i guess hes bottom tier. Fox cant waveshine??? Bottom tier. /sarcasm

 

[KingofCereal]

Weren't 3 of the winners of the Gamestop thing Ike players?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

The only thing correct about this is the underrated part. If ur not gonna ledgeguard, ill just grab the ledge and ledge camp with ECEs. Yoshi can just ETS(egg toss slide) which means ill run back and throw and egg giving me a slide and tossing an egg if u try to out spam me, allowing me to avoid the leaf and hit u. YOshi can play the match defensively, and ivysaur doesnt have much of an approach. Ivy can bair spam all it wants, yoshi doesnt have any need to approach. ARRR i was supposed to leave -.-

razor leaf is better than those stupid eggs. ivysaur isn't the one who needs to approach here. advantage ivysaur.

and since yoshi is so crappy in the air, that's another advantage for ivysaur, what with having bullet seed / vine whip / better aerials.

ivysaur has more range on the ground, too. yoshi is ****ed in this matchup.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Weren't 3 of the winners of the Gamestop thing Ike players?

You mean the tournament where no one knew how to play and everyone used wiimotes/nunchaku?

lol

 

[Xiivi]

I think the best evidence against yoshi is this:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954