Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Corner-Trap]

I don't see why people are hating on Marth. Only moves that got nerfed are Dair because the spike hitbox is smaller, and Fsmash because it has less horizontal range. Aside from that all of his attacks are generall the same, or have received a buff. His match-ups for the most part are either fair or good, so he should have a pretty firm spot in high tier at the least.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

on the discussion of matchups, corner trap, what do you think of this? i assume you've seen this before.



S Rank

Meta Knight (19 top8, 19 top4, 5 wins, 101 pts)
Snake (12 top8, 14 top4, 9 wins, 99 pts)

A Rank

Mr. Game & Watch (11 top8, 6 top4, 4 wins, 49 pts)
King Dedede (3 top8, 10 top4, 3 wins, 48 pts)
Wario (1 top8, 4 top4, 6 wins, 43 pts)
ROB (8 top8, 10 top4, 1 win, 43 pts)
Pikachu (3 top8, 8 top4, 2 wins, 37 pts)
Marth (10 top8, 5 top4, 2 wins, 35 pts)

B Rank

Wolf (7 top8, 7 top4, 28 pts)
Ike (7 top8, 5 top4, 1 win, 27 pts)
Kirby (7 top4, 1 win, 26 pts)
Toon Link (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 win, 25 pts)
Peach (2 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 25 pts)
Fox (5 top8, 5 top4, 1 win, 25 pts)
Lucario (2 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 24 pts)
Olimar (8 top8, 5 top4, 23 pts)
Sonic (3 top8, 2 top4, 2 wins, 19 pts)
Falco (5 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 19 pts)
Donkey Kong (5 top8, 1 top4, 2 win, 18 pts)

C Rank

Pit (4 top8, 2 top4, 1 win, 15 pts)
Ice Climbers (3 top8, 4 top4, 15 pts)
Lucas (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Diddy Kong (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Bowser (1 top8, 3 top4, 10 pts)
Luigi (2 top4, 6 pts)
Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Jigglypuff (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Ness (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)
Mario (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)

D Rank

Sheik (1 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
Link (1 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
Zelda (1 top4, 3 pts)
Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)
Pokémon Trainer (1 top4, 3 pts)
Ganondorf (3 top8, 3 pts)
Samus (2 top8, 2 pts)



just wondering what your thoughts are on this list. and yes, i know this wasn't put out to be a tier list.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Now top tier. That's something that's going to be debatable. What I think will be the determining factor here is just where we decide to put the cuttoff. Where do we think there is a big enough gap to justify a tier distinction?

In melee, Gannondorf was the bottom of mid with Link at the top of low. However, there was a significant gap inbetween the two of them.

Similarly, there's a reasonable gap between mid and high. But the gap between high and top was always a little ambiguous, and I think it is even moreso in brawl simply because there are more characters with a reasonable shot of getting in top tier (since there's more characters). This particular tier gap will probably be argued the most even after the official tier list comes out.

 

[St. Viers]

^^agreed: top of high makes sense. I mean, he's pretty much game and watch, but with less useful d-air, recovery, and b-air. And we all know how good g&w is ^__^

 

[Emblem Lord]

G&W might have more bad matches then Marth I think. I have to look at his match-up thread again.

I DO know that Marth has advantage on G&W in the match between them though.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

^^agreed: top of high makes sense. I mean, he's pretty much game and watch, but with less useful d-air, recovery, and b-air. And we all know how good g&w is ^__^

that's not really a fair assessment to make... he also has much better specials except for his recovery, and a much easier time killing. they're not THAT similar...

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^agreed: top of high makes sense. I mean, he's pretty much game and watch, but with less useful d-air, recovery, and b-air. And we all know how good g&w is ^__^

But also with stronger aerials and less landing lag on those aerials. And stronger tilts. And an invincible up B that acts as a combo breaker. Do you see where I'm going with this?

The gap between Game and Watch and Marth doesn't seem big enough to justify one getting in top tier while the other doesn't. We need some kind of logical cuttoff so that we can say "this, this, and this makes character X a top tier character over character Y."

 

[ranmasama]

so is there a tier list here? or like a rough estimate like 4 groups: Super Top, Top, Middle, Bottom?

 

[Emblem Lord]

According to the match-up chart they are equal in thier bad match-ups, but I disagree with some match-ups that G&W has. He loses to a character that I honestly don't think he should lose too. Also match-ups may change in the future although for the most part I think G&W and Marth have the most accurate match-up list right now.

As characters you can't compare them. G&W has grabs, recovery, very powerful killing moves, and his bucket to help him stop campers.

Marth is more well rounded. Good in all areas really. Solid moveset and better specials overall. His smashes aren't as good, but his other moves are better for the most part. Worse recovery and doesn't have a special option to deal with projectiles, except counter which is only good at close range. Still he has his mobility and his speed. His rush down is superior to G&W's due to this.

G&W is a better killer with better recovery. Marth is better at zoning and is just good all around.

Also G&W is a feather weight. He kills really well, but he dies early too. Marth is mid-light weight. So he dies early, but not super early.

 

[Kiwikomix]

TL, Snake and MK are pretty much accepted as top tier. Falco, Wolf, Gdub, and Marth kind of float around there. I would say Marth and Gdub get in top tier, but I'm not an expert at which is better & by how much for Falco and Wolf. I actually think top should cut off just before Pikachu, since he's a great character but separated from these seven by quite a bit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmm, I think I need to do more research on TL. I think we all just accept that he is good, but who has argued for him really in this thread or the match-up thread?

But yes, I think the cut off being right before Pika makes alot of sense. He is clearly a great character, but not top tier. Dedede would be at the top of high tier as well and Pit too of course.

I think that Wolf is last in top tier now that I think about it. Very one dimensional character that only has one play style really and you have to be very reactice with him. Plus his recovery is abysmal. But we will just see what his match-ups look like.

 

[St. Viers]

I know, I was joking...and putting up some G&W love. I know the differences (I read everything, I just can't come up with anything due to not owning the game), as well as my over-simplified similarities.

Also, doesn't marth's f-air still take out non laser projectiles?

And by rush down you mean his ability to pressure/overwhelm? Because if not, I'm confused, as G&W has the ultimate approach move with the turtle. (for a MTG reference, g&w is the stomp deck, while marth would be more a weenie--they both rush, but in different ways.)

 

[salaboB]

I think that Wolf is last in top tier now that I think about it. Very one dimensional character that only has one play style really and you have to be very reactice with him. Plus his recovery is abysmal. But we will just see what his match-ups look like.

Your description of him really doesn't sound anything like a top tier character to me.

 

[Timkorean1994]

i say link is in the mid tier
toon link is in the high mid tiers
olimar is in the high tiers
wolf is in the highest tier
ike and msrth in higher tier
snkie in high mid tier
ice climbers high tier
boweser low tier kirby mid tier
pikachu low tier
ness and lucas mid tier
fox mid tier
flaco high mid tier
yeah get the picture

 

[St. Viers]

Your description of him really doesn't sound anything like a top tier character to me.

Think melee falco. He was top tier, and could be described the exact same way

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yup. Horrible defense and couldn't take a hit.

But incredible offense.

Don't insult Marth's rush down BTW. Especially since he can rush G&W all day long and not be punished lol. Then again no one really can, since his rush down is safe.

G&W turtle is one move though. Also how safe is it. I think Some characters could punish it. Ah maybe not, I dunno.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Toon has a disjoint, is good at racking up damage, has great aerials, projectile spams like a pro, and has plenty of killing potential. However, he's light so he dies easily and his recovery is only so-so, which is bad because he'll be sent flying a lot. He sort of reminds me of GDub, only watered down in some aspects and buffed in others. I'd say he finds his place between GDub and Marth.
And I completely forgot about ROB, where does he fit in?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Yup. Horrible defense and couldn't take a hit.

But incredible offense.

i don't get that impression from wolf though. falco was successful because his one dimensional playstyle could lock down the opponent. i just... haven't really been affected by wolf that way. his playstyle is more annoying than anything else, i just haven't found it effective enough to warrant him being in top tier.

 

[St. Viers]

@VHG: I think that is simply lack of patience/skill on the part of wolfs you play ^_^

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

@VHG: I think that is simply lack of patience/skill on the part of wolfs you play ^_^

oh i doubt that... laser laser laser, fsmash or dsmash if i get close, roll away to the COMPLETE OPPOSITE END OF THE STAGE to laser again. wolf fights takes twice as long as most other matches... it's so dumb >_<

 

[Grunt]

If no one has posted this yet / if anyone cares, here is a tier list created solely off of the match-up chart thread. it is actually pretty reasonable and realistic. there are however some factors not inputted. Tier lists are largely based on tournament results. The factors such as player skill and character representation can turn the outcome of tourney results.

Without further ado, the Scoring system.
NOTE: the blank/disputed spots were considered disadvantages besed on the theory that if the player didnt know wether or not he had an adv, he wouldnt know how to play that specific character, and lose. characters did not face themselves.

characters had on average 2-4 disputes except for ZSS, Zelda, Wario, and Peach, who had the most, so their positions could change a bit.

39 total (all pokes/shiek/ZSS)
Adv-Netral-Disadv
(Player above's score)

Bowser:3-5-30
(-27)
Falcon:1-2-35
(-34)
Charizard:7-6-25
(-18)
Diddy:14-5-19
(-5)
Donkey:6-9-23
(-17)
Falco:25-7-6
(19)
Fox:9-11-18
(-9)
GnW:29-4-5
(24)
Ganon:1-5-32
(-31)
IC:18-9-11
(7)
Ike:6-4-28
(-22)
Ivy:7-10-21
(-14)
Purin:5-5-28
(-23)
3D:11-6-21
(-10)
Kirby:17-6-15
(2)
Link:10-7-21
(-11)
Lucario:11-13-14
(-3)
Lucas:16-9-13
(3)
Luigi:8-5-25
(-17)
Mario:5-7-26
(-21)
Marth:25-5-8
(17)
MK:31-3-4
(27)
Ness:17-3-18
(-1)
Peach:4-4-30
(-26)
Pika:18-4-16
(2)
Olimar:20-3-15
(5)
Pit:24-4-10
(14)
R.O.B:23-4-11
(12)
Samus:12-4-22
(-10)
Shiek7-7-24
(-17)
Snake:26-5-7
(19)
Sonic:8-6-24
(-16)
Squirtle:9-6-23
(-14)
Toon Link:24-3-11
(13)
Wario:12-8-18
(-6)
Wolf:21-4-13
(7)
Yoshi:2-4-32
(-30)
Zelda:19-8-11
(8)
ZSS:15-4-19
(-4)

And now, the tier list that would be created from these results:
NOTE: incase of tie, the character with more neuterals will be higher.

TOP:
MetaKnight
Game and Watch

~big gap~

HIGH:
Falco
Snake
Marth
Pit
Toon Link

MIDDLE:
ROB
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Olimar
Lucas
Kirby
Pikachu
Ness
Lucario
ZSS
Diddy
Wario
Fox
3D
Samus

LOW:
Link
Ivy
Squirtle
Sonic
DK
Shiek
Luigi
Charizard
Mario
Ike

BOTTOM:
Purin
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Ganon
Captain Falcon

EDIT:
someone fairly earlier quoted someone much earlier saying to pit every character against one another to find tiers. this was my main motivation, so, yeah...

 

[St. Viers]

If thats all the wolf player does I stand my my previous statement

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

If thats all the wolf player does I stand my my previous statement

well it may not be as effective as whatever you've faced... but they DO have patience... i would kill myself if i had to make every match last 8 minutes X_X

 

[supercake]

If no one has posted this yet / if anyone cares, here is a tier list created solely off of the match-up chart thread. it is actually pretty reasonable and realistic. there are however some factors not inputted. Tier lists are largely based on tournament results. The factors such as player skill and character representation can turn the outcome of tourney results.

Without further ado, the Scoring system.
NOTE: the blank/disputed spots were considered disadvantages besed on the theory that if the player didnt know wether or not he had an adv, he wouldnt know how to play that specific character, and lose. characters did not face themselves.

characters had on average 2-4 disputes except for ZSS, Zelda, Wario, and Peach, who had the most, so their positions could change a bit.

39 total (all pokes/shiek/ZSS)
Adv-Netral-Disadv
(Player above's score)

Bowser:3-5-30
(-27)
Falcon:1-2-35
(-34)
Charizard:7-6-25
(-18)
Diddy:14-5-19
(-5)
Donkey:6-9-23
(-17)
Falco:25-7-6
(19)
Fox:9-11-18
(-9)
GnW:29-4-5
(24)
Ganon:1-5-32
(-31)
IC:18-9-11
(7)
Ike:6-4-28
(-22)
Ivy:7-10-21
(-14)
Purin:5-5-28
(-23)
3D:11-6-21
(-10)
Kirby:17-6-15
(2)
Link:10-7-21
(-11)
Lucario:11-13-14
(-3)
Lucas:16-9-13
(3)
Luigi:8-5-25
(-17)
Mario:5-7-26
(-21)
Marth:25-5-8
(17)
MK:31-3-4
(27)
Ness:17-3-18
(-1)
Peach:4-4-30
(-26)
Pika:18-4-16
(2)
Olimar:20-3-15
(5)
Pit:24-4-10
(14)
R.O.B:23-4-11
(12)
Samus:12-4-22
(-10)
Shiek7-7-24
(-17)
Snake:26-5-7
(19)
Sonic:8-6-24
(-16)
Squirtle:9-6-23
(-14)
Toon Link:24-3-11
(13)
Wario:12-8-18
(-6)
Wolf:21-4-13
(7)
Yoshi:2-4-32
(-30)
Zelda:19-8-11
(8)
ZSS:15-4-19
(-4)

And now, the tier list that would be created from these results:
NOTE: incase of tie, the character with more neuterals will be higher.

TOP:
MetaKnight
Game and Watch

~big gap~

HIGH:
Falco
Snake
Marth
Pit
Toon Link

MIDDLE:
ROB
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Olimar
Lucas
Kirby
Pikachu
Ness
Lucario
ZSS
Diddy
Wario
Fox
3D
Samus

LOW:
Link
Ivy
Squirtle
Sonic
DK
Shiek
Luigi
Charizard
Mario
Ike

BOTTOM:
Purin
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Ganon
Captain Falcon

EDIT:
someone fairly earlier quoted someone much earlier saying to pit every character against one another to find tiers. this was my main motivation, so, yeah...

FAIL

The middle is all messed up. 3D is practically low tier, while there is no way there is that big a difference between MK and ROB. Half the characters in Mid belong in high anyway.

 

[Grunt]

FAIL

The middle is all messed up. 3D is practically low tier, while there is no way there is that big a difference between MK and ROB. Half the characters in Mid belong in high anyway.

argue your points, dont just state them. i got my data from the thread titled, "Character match up chart" so if you need arguments for this list, go read that. if you study the chart and my actual post, (that i highlighted) you will see that i counted empty/discussed matches as losses. ROB has a few discussed matches against characters higher than him, which may turn out to be wins. BTW that would be a HUGE high tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But with this list I can see the begginings of an accurat tier list. That said Bowser shouldn't be that low IMO.

Someone has to debate his match-ups and show that he goes even with a good chunk of the cast.

 

[Grunt]

But with this list I can see the begginings of an accurat tier list. That said Bowser shouldn't be that low IMO.

Someone has to debate his match-ups and show that he goes even with a good chunk of the cast.

Thank you for a reasonable response.

Bowser has disputes between sonic and Purin, who IMO both have disadvantages due to their low priority to some of Bowser's moves. This would place him above peach, but i honestly don't see him any higher. not to mention peach has quite a few disputes (11) which could drastically change her placement.

 

[salaboB]

But with this list I can see the begginings of an accurat tier list. That said Bowser shouldn't be that low IMO.

Someone has to debate his match-ups and show that he goes even with a good chunk of the cast.

Ahh, rate Yoshi low...then everyone can be shocked when he crushes them!

 

[Gindler]

Come to think of it, snake plays alot like wolf. Lay mine, lay C4, grenade, grenade, when you get close Ftilt, Ftilt, grenade, grenade. Just alot I've noticed, some do the rolling tackle to mortar thing alot too.

Once you think about it just about all the characters are pretty one dimensional, and no i'm not bashing brawl because melee was the same.

and yeah, yoshi seems to get thrashed in all the tier lists. Oh well, it's fun when someone sandbags when i pick yoshi thinking it's in the bag only to be 3 stocked (not likely but has happened, usually just 2 ) but yeah keep underestimating some characters it's all good.

 

[orintemple]

That is a really nice list Grunt. It may only be based on character matchups but it looks like the first workings of something more real. I would say that looks reasonably accurate.

I am surprised to see Pikachu is not higher, and that Ike and Peach are SOOO low, but facts are facts. The rest of it seems to make some good sense. We just need to get the tourney results together with this, and then we will have our very own unofficial tier list.

 

[Grunt]

and yeah, yoshi seems to get thrashed in all the tier lists. Oh well, it's fun when someone sandbags when i pick yoshi thinking it's in the bag only to be 3 stocked (not likely but has happened, usually just 2 ) but yeah keep underestimating some characters it's all good.

well, only about 4 matches were unknown for yoshi making him possibly above Bowser. peach will surely move up (most likely wont have all 11 unknown, become losses). Yoshi; I do not see him surpassing anyone else but Bowser maybe and maybe, maybe Purin, but that's quite a few advs away.

That is a really nice list Grunt. It may only be based on character matchups but it looks like the first workings of something more real. I would say that looks reasonably accurate.

I am surprised to see Pikachu is not higher, and that Ike and Peach are SOOO low, but facts are facts. The rest of it seems to make some good sense. We just need to get the tourney results together with this, and then we will have our very own unofficial tier list.

Character representation will greatly change tourney results. ex, pika probably has advs against the higher characters making him more popular in tourneys, but in an all together character match up list, he isn't as good.

Like I said earlier, peach has 11 unknowns so, she will most likely move up quite a bit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

We have to remember that the match-up chart isn't finished and that some matches are disputed.

 

[salaboB]

well, only about 4 matches were unknown for yoshi making him possibly above Bowser. peach will surely move up (most likely wont have all 11 unknown, become losses). Yoshi; I do not see him surpassing anyone else but Bowser maybe and maybe, maybe Purin, but that's quite a few advs away.

Yoshi gets ranked as the loser in matches that people haven't bothered to try with a skilled Yoshi vs. the other character -- they just have a low opinion of him because they can't play him well. It's why he shows up in the bottom of pure opinion lists, too.

And me? I can see all the tricks he can do and understand that he's not that bad (I'd say somewhere mid-tier, best guess) but I keep trying to play him like it's melee and getting whomped once people figure that out (Though I usually win until then).

(Edit: Like looking through the Yoshi matchup thread linked from that guide, the only post about IC's that I saw was that the poster thought Yoshi had a slight advantage because he can get a grab off at them and can stay aerial to avoid getting grabbed when they're desynced, but the chart shows it as an X. The only mention of Yoshi in the IC's thread is that the OP felt it was a 7/3 advantage to the IC's with no explanation, and apparently that opinion is what counted. He's just consistently rated low irregardless of what people can say he can do, and I think he's likely to stay that way unless someone skilled that goes to a lot of tournaments picks him up as a main.)

 

[superglucose]

The only aspect your tier list doesn't take into account is that the matchups doesn't have a scale, while the tier list does.

But, as it's already stated, it's a great starting point.

Here's a little suggestion: try not counting the disputed matchups as losses, but counting them as neutral. So for instance, if Pit had 20 wins, 5 losses, 4 nothings, and 3 disputeds, he'd be 20-5-7 instead of 20-8-4. A disputed matchup to me says "we have no clue who's going to win this fight, some people think x and some people think y" which to me says that it's a tie. And a tie is definitely not a loss.

 

[strider43]

Top tier:
Fox
Lucas
Zss
GaW
Rob

Everyone else:
trash.

 

[ZK_]

Top:
Toon Link
Marth
Metaknight
Snake ( there you go lol )

High:
Zelda
Lucas
Pit
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Sonic

Mid:
Sheik
Wolf
Fox
Olimar
Mario
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Charizard

Low:
Ivysaur
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Wario
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom: (havent seen any but from what ive seen on other tier lists then it would be....)
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

add GAW to High Tier, or even anywhere O_O

 

[Grunt]

Ok, the scores have been updated by changing the disputes into neutrals, and it changes the lists quite a bit. (Yoshi got worse).

39 total (all pokes/shiek/ZSS)
Adv-Netral-Disadv
(Player above's score)

Bowser:3-7-28
(-25)
Falcon:1-5-32
(-31)
Charizard:7-8-23
(-16)
Diddy:14-11-13
(1)
Donkey:6-14-18
(-12)
Falco:25-8-5
(20)
Fox:9-14-15
(-6)
GnW:29-5-4
(25)
Ganon:1-10-27
(-26)
IC:18-10-10
(8)
Ike:6-7-25
(-19)
Ivy:7-17-14
(-7)
Purin:5-9-24
(-19)
3D:11-8-19
(-8)
Kirby:17-10-11
(6)
Link:10-11-17
(-7)
Lucario:11-20-7
(4)
Lucas:16-11-11
(5)
Luigi:8-8-21
(-13)
Mario:5-14-19
(-14)
Marth:25-10-3
(22)
MK:31-6-1
(30)
Ness:17-8-13
(4)
Peach:4-15-19
(-15)
Pika:18-10-10
(8)
Olimar:20-10-8
(12)
Pit:24-8-6
(18)
R.O.B:23-9-6
(17)
Samus:12-5-21
(-9)
Shiek7-7-24
(-17)
Snake:26-8-4
(22)
Sonic:8-13-17
(-9)
Squirtle:9-11-18
(-9)
Toon Link:24-11-3
(21)
Wario:12-18-8
(4)
Wolf:21-13-4
(17)
Yoshi:2-8-28
(-26)
Zelda:19-13-6
(13)
ZSS:15-16-7
(8)

Now for tiers (for each ^, that character gained 1 place. a v is down 1 place.)

TOP:
MetaKnight
Game and Watch

~big gap~

HIGH:
Marth(^^
Snake(v
Falco(v
Toon Link(^
Pit(v

MIDDLE:
Wolf(^^^
ROB(v
Zelda(v
Olimar
ZSS(^^^^^
Pikachu
IC(vvvv
Kirby(vv
Lucas(vvv
Wario(^^
Lucario(vv
Ness(vvvv
Diddy(vv
Fox(v
Ivy(^^^
Link(^^
3D(vv
Samus(vv

LOW:
Sonic(^
Squirtle(v
DK
Luigi(^
Mario(^
Peach(^^^^
Charizard(v
Shiek(vvv

BOTTOM:
Purin(^
Ike(v
Bowser
Ganon(^
Yoshi(v
Captain Falcon

EDIT: something got messed up with the arrows, but oh well, it's fairly close, and not that hard to figure out.

Here's a little suggestion: try not counting the disputed matchups as losses, but counting them as neutral.

Done

 

[JJ259]

Fox should be -6
Lucario should be 4
Wolf should be 17

 

[Grunt]

Fox should be -6
Lucario should be 4
Wolf should be 17

Thanks for catching that, im pretty tired right now.

 

[Browny]

-edit-

stop posting that match up thread as a tier list. it fails.

that is all