Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Deleted member]

THis was a responce to kwiko. I know nobody cares bout my wall of texts, and that nobody cares. WTF. Ive been here, asking people why they think he is bad. Viers was the only one who responded, i made a lengthy wall of text countering his arguments. Nobody else tried. Alright lemme tell u whats good (why am i doing this again, i told my self i wouldnt). Alright his pivot grabs are great. Counter lots of approaches, little lag, very good. He has chaingrabs on some cahracters, and an infinate chaingrab on wario that can be initiated from any percent to 999% and with yoshi its easy to get grabs, so thats one 10-0 matchup in yoshis favor if u can pull the grab off, which isnt that difficult. His eggs are great, ECEs are good for stalling and racking up damage quickly. ETS is an adv. tech that allows yoshi to play defensively with eggs, and is extremely helpful. His bair is one of the best bairs in the game, not too many that are better, but yoshi's is the most versitile besides G&Ws. Its a great approach, can be used to retreat, autocancels and leads into many things, including ftilts (lead into other things), usmashes, and another bair if u want. It has rediculous priority and goes through many projectiles. His tilts are very good, ftilt has good range, leads into more ftilts, and dash attacks. Utilt is somewhat situational due to pretty small range, but it leads into uairs and at low %s, more ftilts. Dtilt has huge range and can be used to get some distance. His aerials are good. Ive covered his bair, his nair is a long lasting sex kick that has good priority and is good for edgeguarding. His dair can rack up 30+ damage easily and the times to use it come up alot, plus it spikes at high percents. His uair combos, uair to rising uair is great.It kills at 115-140%

Im getting bored so really quick his smashes. Usmash has invincibility frames and pulls yoshi's head back. It deals good damage and kills too. Hyphen smashes are good. Fsmash has not so much range, but man its a kill move. Can kill at pretty low percents, and stutter stepping helps its range. Dsmash is quick, very nerfed, but huge range and dsmash oos is very good. Ok thats whats good about yoshi. I dont feel like saying anymore, bigman can continue if he wants. sorry for the WOT, but ill copy paste this if people ask whats good about yoshi.

I predict mid tier, probably in the middle of it. Ugg

 

[Kiwikomix]

First of all it's great to finally see a Yoshi fighting back while I'm online.
Apparently I care, since I just asked for a wall of text.
Eggs are a good projectile for versatility of where they can hit, but they are easily cancelled, only travel in certain dodgeable trajectories, and can be predicted and dodged easily because they are slow-ish. However, they are quite good at putting the pressure on opponents trying to recover.
Yes, Yoshi's bair is a sick move. I remember in Melee (where he was my counter for Marths) he could use those all day and it would never get old. However, in Brawl, one good aerial is no longer enough for a good air game because of the quickly diminishing percentages. You talk about his nair, but it has fairly short range for a sex kick (Yoshi has teeny little legs and big feet) and, like all sex kicks, is followed up by a significant amount of lag.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't d-tilt have a fixed knockback? If that was changed from Melee, feel free to tell me. Therefore, it can get opponents out of Yoshi's face but he can't combo it or do much of anything else except run up and attack or start spamming eggs.
U-smash actually isn't that great, as it can only hit opponents above Yoshi or opponents bigger than him. D-smash, while quick, leaves him open after he uses it. F-smash, like you said, is less rangy and therefore gets punished by ranged characters, especially those with disjoints.
One thing I gained from this is that Yoshi does have his place against heavier characters. Like you said, he can chaingrab Wario forever, plus the small knockback his moves have can combo them very easily (especially with bair). His eggs can juggle characters like Bowser for quite some time. However, against lighter and/or faster characters, Yoshi fails pretty badly. This is a problem as the top/high tiers are filled primarily with light and fast characters.
In conclusion, Yoshi does clearly have a lot going for him, but so much of it is predictable that he can't go too far in the meta-game. One good aerial means the bair should be expected constantly, off the edge an opponent should look for eggs and airdodge them, and on the ground a character can keep their distance and wait for Yoshi to approach. He's a good character and constantly undervalued, but he can't do anything at an exceptional level.

 

[A2ZOMG]

did anyone hear me, what happened to G & W all of a sudden that everyone thinks hes top tier now. A couple weeks ago he was like mid tier.

G&W is top tier because:
1. His shield no longer sucks. In fact his defense is very very good. He's hard to hit because he's small, and has a ton of disjointed range, and his lag is pretty low overall.
2. One of the best approachers in the game. Both his D-air and B-air are very very good at shield stabbing
3. Some of the strongest Smash attacks. U-smash is third strongest in the game, F-smash is also awesome. D-smash is one of the best in the game.
4. One of the best recoveries
5. Great D-throw setups
6. His aerial attacks are also very strong. F-air, D-air, and U-air can legitimately kill. U-air stalls enemies which pressures them.
7. Counters energy projectile spam with the overpowered Oil Spill.
8. Projectile is actually useful. Decent damage output and range, and covers multiple trajectories.

His only real problems is a mediocre rolling dodge, and being lightweight.

 

[flyingpork002]

k thanks that helps alot thx i guess this game is more about priority and approaching then speed

 

[salaboB]

This is in addition to the earlier wall of text, so I'm trying not to duplicate things too much (Like I'm not including his pivot grabs).

Yoshi's nair is extremely fast to activate, I've used it to interrupt a lot of chain grab attempts.

His egg throw giving him lift also seriously increases his recovery options, plus egg roll can throw people off if you feel like it (You just let yourself drop like a rock and then roll away under them, if they were high in the air to try to meet you).

As well, the eggs can be tossed to a great many locations on a stage if he mixes in jumps to launch them as well as standing launches, and their range is relatively long with a fairly low arc when he really chucks one -- I can get one about 2/3rds of the way across FD, at a guess. There's also the sliding egg toss that can shift egg landing locations a decent distance either way, whatever that technique is being called.

He also isn't solely limited to bair for attacking aerially, that's just the one that powers through people trying to camp and will punish people who try to shield (It can shield poke in one application if you're aiming well). The dair was mentioned, but a little more is worthwhile -- if you air dodge a laggy attack from someone trying to guard you as you drop on them, the dair makes an excellent punisher.

Two spikes for off the edge (fair and dair both can spike) and while it's relatively recoverable with meteor cancels, it's still a threat that people have to be ready for. Plus his neutral air can just be used and actually has pretty good priority from what I've seen.

His forward smash shouldn't just be spammed, like you said it can easily be punished by a disjointed hitbox. However, many of the top tiers don't have terribly long disjointed hitboxes on their smashes, so if Yoshi positions himself right outside their range then goes into an fsmash his head will pull itself out of position so their attack will miss entirely.

While not the most useful move ever, his egg roll can be used to mix things up when people aren't expecting it, and he can pop out a safe distance away and then attack them if they've committed to the attack they'd need to do to hit him while he was going past, or just power through them if they're sufficiently unprepared for it.

His dash attack hits for pretty much the entire duration of it, and will punish spot dodgers if you can get someone convinced you're going to grab them and make them dodge -- I've had someone spot dodge the start of my dash attack, and then it still hit them at the end of their dodge because it just lasts that long. You can do a tech chase of sorts with the dash attack at low %'s (I believe this still works, at least.)

Really, he's not as limited as people think for his options. To compare him to a character that generally gets placed mid-tier (Which is where I think Yoshi should end up), what options does Mario have to attack in the air or approach that give him so many more advantages than Yoshi has? I haven't seen him produce anything significantly more effective for dealing with the upper tiered people, either.

 

[Sandwich]

I heard a Yoshi beat Omnigamer in a tournament final.
If I can find the thread where I read it I'll show you.

EDIT, YO: He didn't beat Omnigamer, but he won the tournament.

 

[Sandwich]

Double post, mod please remove.

 

[Brightside6382]

Okay, he didn't beat Omngamer but he won the tounament.

Wifi is a joke and tournament results shouldn't matter unless it was an in-person setting.

 

[Kiwikomix]

This is in addition to the earlier wall of text, so I'm trying not to duplicate things too much (Like I'm not including his pivot grabs).

Yoshi's nair is extremely fast to activate, I've used it to interrupt a lot of chain grab attempts.

His egg throw giving him lift also seriously increases his recovery options, plus egg roll can throw people off if you feel like it (You just let yourself drop like a rock and then roll away under them, if they were high in the air to try to meet you).

As well, the eggs can be tossed to a great many locations on a stage if he mixes in jumps to launch them as well as standing launches, and their range is relatively long with a fairly low arc when he really chucks one -- I can get one about 2/3rds of the way across FD, at a guess. There's also the sliding egg toss that can shift egg landing locations a decent distance either way, whatever that technique is being called.

He also isn't solely limited to bair for attacking aerially, that's just the one that powers through people trying to camp and will punish people who try to shield (It can shield poke in one application if you're aiming well). The dair was mentioned, but a little more is worthwhile -- if you air dodge a laggy attack from someone trying to guard you as you drop on them, the dair makes an excellent punisher.

Two spikes for off the edge (fair and dair both can spike) and while it's relatively recoverable with meteor cancels, it's still a threat that people have to be ready for. Plus his neutral air can just be used and actually has pretty good priority from what I've seen.

His forward smash shouldn't just be spammed, like you said it can easily be punished by a disjointed hitbox. However, many of the top tiers don't have terribly long disjointed hitboxes on their smashes, so if Yoshi positions himself right outside their range then goes into an fsmash his head will pull itself out of position so their attack will miss entirely.

While not the most useful move ever, his egg roll can be used to mix things up when people aren't expecting it, and he can pop out a safe distance away and then attack them if they've committed to the attack they'd need to do to hit him while he was going past, or just power through them if they're sufficiently unprepared for it.

His dash attack hits for pretty much the entire duration of it, and will punish spot dodgers if you can get someone convinced you're going to grab them and make them dodge -- I've had someone spot dodge the start of my dash attack, and then it still hit them at the end of their dodge because it just lasts that long. You can do a tech chase of sorts with the dash attack at low %'s (I believe this still works, at least.)

Really, he's not as limited as people think for his options. To compare him to a character that generally gets placed mid-tier (Which is where I think Yoshi should end up), what options does Mario have to attack in the air or approach that give him so many more advantages than Yoshi has? I haven't seen him produce anything significantly more effective for dealing with the upper tiered people, either.

Yes, Yoshi's nair comes out quickly, but it stays out forever and you had better hope it doesn't miss.

Although Yoshi's SA on his second jump does help, if he gets hit off the stage again while recovering just after his second jump, he will likely be unable to come back, as egg roll now falls straight down and the upB jumps, while certainly appreciated, don't really cover that much distance.

Like I said earlier, Yoshi's projectile can go everywhere but unlike, say, Pit's arrow, it is very easily dodged unless comboed into.

Yoshi's dair is good and racks up damage, but it has such limited range that I can't see it being used as much as his bair.

The extra lag on his dash attack just makes it more susceptible to punishment if it misses another character entirely, so it's very situational.

Mario really isn't that hot this time around. Definitely low tier, so I hate to say it, but you just compared Yoshi to a low tier character...

In addition to the weaknesses I posted earlier (predictable, not extremely good at any one aspect of the game, poor meta-game advancement), Yoshi also seems to be extremely punishable... not to the extent of Bowser or other slow characters, but enough that it drags him down.

 

[Deleted member]

First of all it's great to finally see a Yoshi fighting back while I'm online.
Apparently I care, since I just asked for a wall of text.
Eggs are a good projectile for versatility of where they can hit, but they are easily cancelled, only travel in certain dodgeable trajectories, and can be predicted and dodged easily because they are slow-ish. However, they are quite good at putting the pressure on opponents trying to recover.My bad, i didnt describe yoshis off edge game, which is a key part of him. His lack of Djc makes him a good edgeguarder to most characters. Anyways eggs, arent easily dodgable, just like melee they limit your options, and make YOU more predictable. Ets is way too good, u should play a yoshi putting them to good use. Eggs are great, they allow for setups, and being slow isnt always bad

Yes, Yoshi's bair is a sick move. I remember in Melee (where he was my counter for Marths) he could use those all day and it would never get old. However, in Brawl, one good aerial is no longer enough for a good air game because of the quickly diminishing percentages. You talk about his nair, but it has fairly short range for a sex kick (Yoshi has teeny little legs and big feet) and, like all sex kicks, is followed up by a significant amount of lag Bair has 4 hits, and it shouldnt be all you are using because yoshi is mostly a grounded character. Nair comes out ultra fast, can break spotdodge spammers, and can kill if replenished.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't d-tilt have a fixed knockback? If that was changed from Melee, feel free to tell me. Therefore, it can get opponents out of Yoshi's face but he can't combo it or do much of anything else except run up and attack or start spamming eggs.Yea but it gets them outta ur face and deals good damage, and depending on the matchup, lets u go back and egg spam (ets of course).

U-smash actually isn't that great, as it can only hit opponents above Yoshi or opponents bigger than him. D-smash, while quick, leaves him open after he uses it. F-smash, like you said, is less rangy and therefore gets punished by ranged characters, especially those with disjoints.usmash hits behind u too, is decently fast, and when hyphen smashing it almost always hits them. Cool dsmash leaves him open after he uses it, so does marths fsmash, and yoshis dsmash has longer range. Fsmash should be used if there is an opening and no other time
One thing I gained from this is that Yoshi does have his place against heavier characters. Like you said, he can chaingrab Wario forever, plus the small knockback his moves have can combo them very easily (especially with bair). His eggs can juggle characters like Bowser for quite some time. However, against lighter and/or faster characters, Yoshi fails pretty badly. This is a problem as the top/high tiers are filled primarily with light and fast characters.
In conclusion, Yoshi does clearly have a lot going for him, but so much of it is predictable that he can't go too far in the meta-game. One good aerial means the bair should be expected constantly, off the edge an opponent should look for eggs and airdodge them, and on the ground a character can keep their distance and wait for Yoshi to approach. He's a good character and constantly undervalued, but he can't do anything at an exceptional level.I agree with you somewhat, but yoshi has pretty solid matchups against many of the higher tiered characters, and by solid i mean he can go toe to toe with them. He doesnt have too many matchups completely in his favor, but most of his matchups are equal (that matchup chart is a freaking joke).

Finally, a good well thought out counter to my response. Comments in orange.

Edit: Just because he cant throw unpunishable attacks out, doesnt mean hes low tier. His nair doesnt have too much lag, and u shouldnt use attacks if u know they are gonna miss. Hes not high tier, so dont compare his projectile to a rediculous one like pits, because its not for the same thing.

 

[salaboB]

Mario really isn't that hot this time around. Definitely low tier, so I hate to say it, but you just compared Yoshi to a low tier character...

Honestly, I'm okay with that.

The problem is, so many lists dump Mario (And other characters with just as many limited options as Yoshi) as solid mid-tier. As long as Yoshi ends up near the characters that have similar capabilities, I don't see any reason to have a problem. It's the fact that he keeps getting dumped as bottom tier below characters with even less options than he has that makes me object.

Edit:

The extra lag on his dash attack just makes it more susceptible to punishment if it misses another character entirely, so it's very situational.

The thing is, unlike many characters that have a huge cooldown on their dash attacks Yoshi's remains a hitbox for almost its entire animation. That's what I was getting at for it -- the actual dash attack doesn't really last that much longer than a lot of other characters have. I could of course be entirely wrong about this and it may be just an entirely longer attack than others, but really if you whiff a dash attack with anyone you're going to get punished and Yoshi's can be used to punish spot dodgers (Say, people trying to escape his sticky tongue of doom) more effectively than a lot of dashes.

 

[Laijin]

As a Kirby main I should be happy about this, but I'm not sure why TL doesn't counter him that well. Explain please.

Tier lists based around Kirby? Why?

Laijin can you explain why your tier list is based around kirby. I don't see the reasoning.

Kirby is cute. And I personally think it accurately reflects everyone else as well.
-nods-

Yep. In Kirby's world, DDD, Olimar and Wolf are all fail characters.

 

[marthsword]

quick 10 minute tier list

Jesus yoshi mainers, all you do is stop by this thread, claim yoshi is amazing with little to no support and instantly leave.

And let's go back to ROB, I made some good points about why I think he is top tier material.

Alright, I've been responding to comments in this thread for a while, time to post my own tiers list. Quick 10 minute one. Everything but top and most of high not in much of an order.

Top

Metaknight
Snake
Toon Link
G&W
ROB
Marth
DeDeDe

High

Pit (would be top if not for weight & lack of KO power)
Falco (only up here because of chainthrow)
Diddy
Wolf (would place him higher, but his recovery and lack of KO power put him down
*Squirtle (possibly could be moved up)
Zelda
Zamus
Lucas



Mid

Olimar (would be higher if recovery were better)
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
**Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Lucario
Fox
Bowser

Low

Wario
*Ivysaur
*Charizard
Ike
Ness
Yoshi
Sheik
Link
Mario

Bottom

Sonic
Peach
Ganondorf
Jiggs
Samus
Captain Falcon

* 1 of the 3 Pokemon that make up the character Pokemon Trainer.
** Taking into account how well all 3 pokemon work together

 

[Kiwikomix]

Oh boy, a joint response to two people.
First @ burntsocks:
Yoshi's spike is an important part of his edgeguarding, and I actually prefer it to, say, Mario's fair because it has a larger hitbox (DK's is even larger though). The only problem is, like Mario and DK's, it's fairly slow and can be predicted.
Remember that thing Yoshi could do where he sat on the edge, jumped, threw an egg, and fell back on the edge? If he can still do that and keep throwing eggs forever just off the side, he definitely gets points for a good edgeguarding game.
I still find his eggs to be dodgeable. They travel approximately the speed and trajectory as Diddy's popgun when it's uncharged or slightly charged, and that's no good. If you can manage to trap an opponent in an egg out of another move, kudos to you.
If Yoshi is mostly a grounded character, then there's another disadvantage. A good aerial character can fly circles around him.
The difference between Yoshi's d-smash and Marth's f-smash is that Marth's actually does decent knockback. Yoshi's, like you said, has been nerfed. Too bad, that was my favorite smash...
Which higher tiered characters does Yoshi outperform exactly? Not Snake, not MK, not Marth anymore (neutral now), not ROB, not Pikachu, not Falco or Wolf, not G-Dub, not Toon Link... I'm not sure who you're talking about.

@ salaboB:

I certainly hope the final SBR tier list doesn't just "dump" characters places. If the creators of lists aren't actually thinking about where they're placing characters, they might as well just give up and become somebody like Coreygames. But yes, bottom tier is ridiculous. No way should he be that low. Mid-low to upper low is what I'd say.

 

[Grunt]

Yes i know i make a lot of tier lists, but it's really only 2, that i revise.

About, the Match up list, i will not revise it again until more of the "10/0, everyone agree? k good." matchups are challenged and the list becomes complete.

So now, a revision of my original tier list.

NOTE: i need more testing for:
-All of the PT's Pokemon.
-Sonic
-Bowser
-R.O.B
-Yoshi

TIERS

TOP:
Mk
Snake
Falco
GnW

HIGH:
Marth
Toon Link
Diddy
R.O.B
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Lucas

MID:
Pit
Zelda
Zamus
Ness
Wolf
Olimar
Fox
Luigi
Ike
Dedede
Lucario
Kirby
Samus
Ivy
Peach
D.K.
Squirtle

LOW:
Wario
Yoshi
Charizard
Purin
Mario
Shiek
Link

BOTTOM:
Bowser
Ganon
Capt.Falcon

FANBOY:
Sonic

arguments, CC and whatever appreciated.
PM me if you happen to have a good character that you would be willing to test with me. they are listed up top.

In response to all the Yoshi debates:
Well, i finally played a good yoshi, and i'll have to say, he screwed me up a bit at first, but afterwards, i was able to win most of the matches. he has really been put in a more though out position, as opposed to my first one. he still may have potential that that particular yoshi player didn't, so if you think you have a great yoshi, come prove it, and i might revise positions.

 

[Adam251]

@Adam. STFU. It's obvious how playing something with controls you aren't used to will mess you up. If you can't play like you would with a normal controller, and make mistakes, it means you aren't playing to the characters potential...Also, his point was that it was an early one, when most people played like ****

I understood that, but my point was in general. I didn't know about the C stick thing prior so I contract my statement.

*coughclassic>>>>gcncough*

@Grunt: Ganon is wayyyy worse then Cfalcon just based on the fact that he's slower. He might have a better moveset, but what does it matter when half of your moves can be dodged easily? Other then that, it's pretty hard to tier the PT Pokemon because they get worse over time in a match (assuming they are used an entire match)

 

[Banjodorf]

did anyone hear me, what happened to G & W all of a sudden that everyone thinks hes top tier now. A couple weeks ago he was like mid tier.

People found out how incredibly amazing he is, such as how much his b-air *****.

I <3 the turtle

 

[Deleted member]

@kiwikomix:
I dont wanna argue about eggs anymore. They are much faster than u say, anyone whos played a good yoshi knows how good they are and their versitality, they are great and i wont argue that point any longer. He can fight well in the air, but yoshi's only chance against aerial characters is to stay grounded. Snake isnt at a disadvantage against MK even tho hes a grounded character, is he???? Yes i know, dsmash was nerfed, its still a good move because of the great range, and still decent knockback.

As for your matchups, i never said he outdoes them i said he can go even with a lot of them: i wont go into much detail, but yoshi vs snake is somewhat even (a bit in snakes favor), MK is a hard yoshi counter, plain and simple, Marth is still in yoshi's favor imo, by more than melee, ROB is doable but pretty tough, Pikachu is debatable (some think pika destroys yoshi, i think its a very winnable matchup, around even) Falco isnt very bad but Wolf is, if G-dub is G&W then ur right, yoshi gets massacred by him. Toon Link is hard, but not G&W hard. So there, he goes even w/ many top/high tiers. These matchups are my opinions, so people can argue them if u want. Im just saying he has mostly even or advanteous matchups.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No, he really doesn't have mostly even or advantageous match-ups.

If he did he would be no less than high tier.

By your own admission he is at best mid tier.

Something doesn't add up.

LOL@ Yoshi vs Marth being in Yoshi's favor.

Marth eats him alive.

 

[salaboB]

@ salaboB:

I certainly hope the final SBR tier list doesn't just "dump" characters places. If the creators of lists aren't actually thinking about where they're placing characters, they might as well just give up and become somebody like Coreygames. But yes, bottom tier is ridiculous. No way should he be that low. Mid-low to upper low is what I'd say.

I'd hope not as well, the risk is just that if nobody points out what he can do while it's still in the formation phase of the lists it's more possible for him to slip through and end up lower at the end. Obviously not the end of the world, but may as well comment on it while the discussion is going on, anyway. An accurate tier list is far more interesting than one that didn't have characters fully reviewed.

 

[Kiwikomix]

This is the same thing keeping Kirby firmly at upper mid tier at best: He just can't beat any of the top tiers (except for the spacies) and it really hurts him. That and not having a projectile....
Yoshi does have mostly neutral matchups once he gets out of lower-high tier, but that's just the thing. They're neutral, not advantageous. Yoshi can break even fantastically, but he can't beat that many characters. Another reason Ivy has been condemned to low tier.

 

[Nicktendo]

for low High/high Mid

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would say Dedede is 4th or 5th in high tier. So mid/low high sounds about right.

 

[Adam251]

Woops, read it wrong.

Delete.

 

[TehBo49]

@kiwikomix:
I dont wanna argue about eggs anymore. They are much faster than u say, anyone whos played a good yoshi knows how good they are and their versitality, they are great and i wont argue that point any longer. He can fight well in the air, but yoshi's only chance against aerial characters is to stay grounded. Snake isnt at a disadvantage against MK even tho hes a grounded character, is he???? Yes i know, dsmash was nerfed, its still a good move because of the great range, and still decent knockback.

As for your matchups, i never said he outdoes them i said he can go even with a lot of them: i wont go into much detail, but yoshi vs snake is somewhat even (a bit in snakes favor), MK is a hard yoshi counter, plain and simple, Marth is still in yoshi's favor imo, by more than melee, ROB is doable but pretty tough, Pikachu is debatable (some think pika destroys yoshi, i think its a very winnable matchup, around even) Falco isnt very bad but Wolf is, if G-dub is G&W then ur right, yoshi gets massacred by him. Toon Link is hard, but not G&W hard. So there, he goes even w/ many top/high tiers. These matchups are my opinions, so people can argue them if u want. Im just saying he has mostly even or advanteous matchups.

lol at Yoshi vs Pika, Marth, & Snake. Yoshi is neither even nor advantaged against those characters. Yoshi has good qualities, but other characters are just better. I think he is low. Moving him to mid would require moving other characters down, which I don't think should be done.

@ marthsword: ROB is high tier IMO. His slow kill moves are what keeps him from top. He's just like Olimar in that he's really good, but brought down by one flaw.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Gonna have to disagree with TehBo on this one, ROB definitely is enough better than Pikachu (who I consider to be the top of high tier) to be lower top tier. And his kill moves aren't really that slow... f-smash is shortish and slowish, but d-smash comes out quickly with great range, not to mention his WOP. If anything comes out slow, it's his aerials, specifically bair, dair, and nair, which good ROBs should learn to anticipate.

 

[Deleted member]

lol at Yoshi vs Pika, Marth, & Snake. Yoshi is neither even nor advantaged against those characters. Yoshi has good qualities, but other characters are just better. I think he is low. Moving him to mid would require moving other characters down, which I don't think should be done.
.

Pika definately has an advantage, miswrote, but its not as terrible as some believe. I learned recently that u can cancel tjolts with yoshi's jabs, which helps tremendously in not getting camped. I believe yoshi has an advantage over marth due to pivot grabs working amazingly against marth, and defensive egging works pretty well against marth. The key is to pivot grab marth's fairs, and most everything else (not predictably, but marth has to get close to u to do damage and pivot grabs outrange him). Ur bair outprioritizes alot as well. Snake, u may be right, i have not too much experience in that matchup, seems pretty evenish to me, just his tilts are too good, but yoshis eggs are faster than nades, and snakes tend to rely on tilts OOS and yoshi grabs alot, but im not too sure, need to play more snakes . Enlighten me?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I believe yoshi has an advantage over marth due to pivot grabs working amazingly against marth, and defensive egging works pretty well against marth. The key is to pivot grab marth's fairs, and most everything else (not predictably, but marth has to get close to u to do damage and pivot grabs outrange him). Ur bair outprioritizes alot as well.

Eggs get up tilted or jabbed, so no, defensive egging is no different than all the other projecitles that Marth deal with. In case you didn't notice, Marth doesn't really care if you're chucking stuff at him, because he has a sword.

Marth should not be approaching with fairs in this matchup as his fair is already out ranged by Yoshi's bair. What he should be approaching with is f-tilts and d-tilts, both of which are safe on block because he can get away before you can do anything.

Marth's nair also outranges Yoshi's bair, and is a great KO move as well. You should also note that trying to grab Marth is just asking for an up B in the face.

Marth is also harder for Yoshi to edgeguard than vice versa, and even on the stage Marth is not exactly lacking in kill moves. His downsmash is extremely fast and great for killing now.

If you'd like to keep debating, I'm sure Emblem Lord wouldn't mind refuting debating with you. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

And did you just say that Yoshi had an advantage against Marth in melee? What terrible Marths have you been fighting? Ever heard of spacing?

 

[Kur]

Ok, I am new here (first post) and I freely admit I do not fully understand all of the acronyms and abbreviations you guys are using but I just have a few questions concerning all these tiers.



1. Why does everybody place Ganon and Captain Falcon at the bottom of the list?

I have searched through at least 50 pages in this thread and can't find a single explanation. I get the feeling that people try to play Ganon and think "Oh man he is sooo slow I can't use him!" and they give up and say he sucks. I know he is slow, but man does he pack a punch. A little bit of timing and you can land some huge shots that can send the opponent flying where other characters would not. I don't think he is way at the top, but he is at least mid tier.

And with Captain Falcon, I can't help but feel like he is really good. He is very fast, has a long range on most of his attacks, same basic moves as Ganon only much faster while still being strong. Coming into this thread I expected to see him in the mid to high tiers.




2. What is wrong with Ike and Bowser?

As far as I am concerned, Ike is nearly overpowered. All of his attacks are too strong, too fast, and have too much range. It is nearly impossible to get close to him unless you are using a super fast character, but even then, any one of Ikes overpowered attacks send them flying back again.

Bowser is another of my most hated of foes. His attacks are probably the only ones consistantly as strong or stronger than Ganons, only they are much faster and have a long range. It just seems like he can attack you from anywhere on the screen. My buddy has got using Bowser down to a science.



3. What is the deal with Snake?

Sure he is a shiny new character, but really, is he that good? I find most of his moves useless in a 1vs.1 match. Maybe I just don't know how to use him right, but I can make that same argument against people who rate Ganon so low.



4. Am I just wrong here?

If somebody could take the time to explain this stuff to me I would appreciate it. I have been playing smash bros since N64 so I am not a noob to the game. I do feel like I know what I am talking about at least a little. I am just looking for some explanations for some of these claims.



Sorry for the long first post..

 

[TriforceCore]

I can see Meta,snake,olimar,DDD top teir

 

[Deleted member]

And did you just say that Yoshi had an advantage against Marth in melee? What terrible Marths have you been fighting? Ever heard of spacing?

If i said that, i didnt mean it. Anyways, most marths ive fought have been trying to approach from the air most of the time, so maybe if they were grounded more i would have more trouble =/ *Shrugs* I dont really feel like trying to argue, id probably lose anyways =/

 

[salaboB]

4. Am I just wrong here?

If somebody could take the time to explain this stuff to me I would appreciate it. I have been playing smash bros since N64 so I am not a noob to the game. I do feel like I know what I am talking about at least a little. I am just looking for some explanations for some of these claims.

You're not wrong, exactly. What's going on is you're looking at it from a casual-competitive view (You play against your friends and take it quite seriously, but none of you are likely to be practicing all the exact spacing and knowing all the exact timing of moves, etc. of the characters) and the tier lists have to be built around the tournament-competitive view. You and your friends may also not really focus on utilizing tilt attacks frequently, which would explain something about Snake.

Basically, all the slow characters you feel are so strong are crippled by their speed when it comes to engaging other characters that can just maintain distance from the incoming attacks and hit when the others can't react in time. As far as Captain Falcon goes, his attacks have delay before startup and that makes his attacks slow, which when facing someone that knows exactly when they need to swing to hit you and can keep themselves at just the right distances for their character means that C. Falcon will be losing more often than not against the characters that are being considered higher tier.

Snake is strong because his tilt attacks are incredibly vicious and he can combine them with his grenades and mines to force the battle to go his way.

I hope this helps some, I'm not amazingly competitive in Brawl myself so if I got something wrong I apologize. Your first post was actually quite good compared to many I've seen, you actually had a point that you explained

 

[Crazy Cloud]

2. What is wrong with Ike and Bowser?

As far as I am concerned, Ike is nearly overpowered. All of his attacks are too strong, too fast, and have too much range. It is nearly impossible to get close to him unless you are using a super fast character, but even then, any one of Ikes overpowered attacks send them flying back again.

You sure you don't mean Snake? I could have sworn you were 'til I went back to re-read it, everything you said describes him perfectly. More so than the description fits Ike anyway.

 

[Grunt]

Ok, I am new here (first post) and I freely admit I do not fully understand all of the acronyms and abbreviations you guys are using but I just have a few questions concerning all these tiers.



1. Why does everybody place Ganon and Captain Falcon at the bottom of the list?

I have searched through at least 50 pages in this thread and can't find a single explanation. I get the feeling that people try to play Ganon and think "Oh man he is sooo slow I can't use him!" and they give up and say he sucks. I know he is slow, but man does he pack a punch. A little bit of timing and you can land some huge shots that can send the opponent flying where other characters would not. I don't think he is way at the top, but he is at least mid tier.

And with Captain Falcon, I can't help but feel like he is really good. He is very fast, has a long range on most of his attacks, same basic moves as Ganon only much faster while still being strong. Coming into this thread I expected to see him in the mid to high tiers.




2. What is wrong with Ike and Bowser?

As far as I am concerned, Ike is nearly overpowered. All of his attacks are too strong, too fast, and have too much range. It is nearly impossible to get close to him unless you are using a super fast character, but even then, any one of Ikes overpowered attacks send them flying back again.

Bowser is another of my most hated of foes. His attacks are probably the only ones consistantly as strong or stronger than Ganons, only they are much faster and have a long range. It just seems like he can attack you from anywhere on the screen. My buddy has got using Bowser down to a science.



3. What is the deal with Snake?

Sure he is a shiny new character, but really, is he that good? I find most of his moves useless in a 1vs.1 match. Maybe I just don't know how to use him right, but I can make that same argument against people who rate Ganon so low.



4. Am I just wrong here?

If somebody could take the time to explain this stuff to me I would appreciate it. I have been playing smash bros since N64 so I am not a noob to the game. I do feel like I know what I am talking about at least a little. I am just looking for some explanations for some of these claims.



Sorry for the long first post..

Well, you can take this from a person who has Ganon as a second, and willingly places him in low tiers.

1.both ganon and falcon have insanely low priority. (most people's jabs can counter a raptor boost, that's how lame it is). they also have very limited approach methods since they lack any projectiles, and are usually forced to sideB their way across the map, which is really predictible. Falcon also recieved a huge power nerf along with smaller hitboxes. Ganon is just ****ing slow.

2.If you have trouble approaching Ike, im guessing he is spamming his Bair and sideB, no? well, these moves are his fastest, but all of them are easy to spot and dodge. bowser..uh, im not sure whether a question was asked or not. good for your friend

3.You need to watch some snake videos, snake is crazy good.

4.uh, not really, just a lacking of current metagame, and techniques.

Welcome to SWF.

 

[SheikSmasher]

I think zelda should be in high and sheik in middle because sheiks still quite good from wjat ive seen here are some videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp4wYBPDt_w&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2nQkV9GNBU and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDsRZpL5Mos and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1_pWqR5uiI and just one more lol he he http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23hGsE8SXbM

 

[Browny]

This thread needs more top of high tier lucario.

His match ups vs everyone below top tier characters are just too good to be anything less. Not to mention anyone with less range (lol about 36/39 characters) or no projectile can be torn apart since he has an incredible edgeguarding game with aura spheres and f-air combos to WOP

 

[TehBo49]

Gonna have to disagree with TehBo on this one, ROB definitely is enough better than Pikachu (who I consider to be the top of high tier) to be lower top tier. And his kill moves aren't really that slow... f-smash is shortish and slowish, but d-smash comes out quickly with great range, not to mention his WOP. If anything comes out slow, it's his aerials, specifically bair, dair, and nair, which good ROBs should learn to anticipate.

F-smash has short range, d-smash is DIable, & u-smash is hard to set up. Like you said, his aerials are slow & can be midair dodged. His top is okay though.

@ burntsocks: Pika beats him because of more speed, higher priority, better smashes, & thunder. Marth wins because if he spaces his attacks properly, it won't matter if b-air outranges him. Snake wins because he can murder Yoshi with explosives & his godly tilts.

 

[St. Viers]

re: ROB.

His tilts are excellent (especially d tilt).

His f-smash is short, but still disjointed, and can be angled.

His f-air has a bit of starting lag, but stays out for so long that it's easy to use. His n-air again has a bit of delay, but that's easy to compensate for.

He doesn't need great smashes, as he can follow someone off the stage forever, until they die.

Also, don't forget the actual laser/top.

 

[OlimarFan]

re: ROB.

His tilts are excellent (especially d tilt).

His f-smash is short, but still disjointed, and can be angled.

His f-air has a bit of starting lag, but stays out for so long that it's easy to use. His n-air again has a bit of delay, but that's easy to compensate for.

He doesn't need great smashes, as he can follow someone off the stage forever, until they die.

Also, don't forget the actual laser/top.

Adding to that, he has a great recovery, and his B-Air makes that even better

 

[Raistlin]

TOP
Metaknight
Pikachu
Snake
Lucas
Game & Watch

HIGH
Toon Link
King Dedede
Marth
Kirby
Olimar
Pit

HIGH-MID
Ike
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Peach
Wario
Fox
Zelda
Ice Climbers

LOW-MID
Jigglypuff
Mario
Donkey Kong
Falco
Sheik
ROB
Wolf
ZSSamus

LOW
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Ness
Lucario
Falcon
Bowser

BOTTOM
Link
Yoshi
Samus
Ganon

*This is Apollo at Raistlin's. We're cool because we hang out outside of Smash.