Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

No.
Top tier just meands the best of the best.
Why make a separate division when you can lower the others to high tier.

A larger amount of characters is little reason.

 

[DanGR]

hey, why isn't kirby higher in the tier list?(maybe top of high tier?) yes, his weight is pretty bad, but so is GaW's. His priority in his approaching bair is incredible, his recovery is close to best, great combos, he doesn't lack kill power, (fsmash, wall of pain, kirbycide, dair spike) semidecent projectile, very quick moves with high prioity and LOW lag, great edgeguarding game, ... the list goes on and on. Is there a crucial aspect in his game I'm missing? His weight isn't enough to put him in the low part of the mid tier.

 

[hizzlum]

No.
Top tier just meands the best of the best.
Why make a separate division when you can lower the others to high tier.

A larger amount of characters is little reason.

Your taking the names of the tiers too literal. Snake and MK are the best of brawl but Marth, Falco, G&W and ROB are good but slightly under them. Then the rest of the characters are in a seperate lower division in competitive play where there is more division in potencial. There just seems to be to outstanding characters(snake and MK) that deserve an exclusive tier but the others great characters (second group)should not be underestimated being put with the others who lack much better potencial and match-ups and tournament placings than the "left out" part of the cast

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake and MK are clearly a cut above the rest.

Marth, Falco and a few others are clearly a cut above high tier.

Other wise, only MK and Snake are top and the others are regulated to high tier.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

I say adding a god tier would be reasonable. Snake and MK are just way too good.

 

[jiovanni007]

Top Tier
High Tier
Upper Tier
Middle Tier
Low Tier
Bottom Tier

In my opinion, the tier list should be layed out this way. Two characters in the Top tier are set in stone as of right now and and Upper tier would allow for some of the outstanding Middle Tier characters of the Middle Tier and some of the lower characters of the High Tier to move down to the Upper Tier without the distinction of being "average." There are clearly some characters in the Middle Tier that some feel should be moved up a tier, but can easily be argued out of being in the presence of the likes of GaW, ROB, Marth, TLink and Falco. Therefore the higher tiers should go as follows:

Top Tier
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier*
R.O.B.
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
Marth
Toon Link

Upper Tier*
Ice Climbers
Pit
Wolf
King Dedede
Olimar
Pikachu
Zelda
Luigi
Wario
Kirby
Lucario
Diddy Kong (maybe)

*Not necessarily in order, just a layout of how the tiers should reside.
In my opinion, Wario, Diddy, Luigi, Lucario and Kirby all set themselves apart from the middle tier, but have noticeable trouble competing with higher tiered characters. Some may be able to be pushed up, but I still like it. Also, before you flame about Kirby being in that tier, keep in mind that the only bad match-ups in that tier are Pikachu and IC (which happen to be among his worst, but whatever) and the rest are either even, or in a negligible favor. If you actually believe the match-up thread than you would say that Zelda provides a problem, but if you're a Kirby main, than that notion is laughable. Other than that, the Upper tier does need rearranging, but for the most part I think I got everyone who shouldn't be in the Middle Tier.

Oh and @ DanGR, as a Kirby main, I can honestly say that there's no way he'll ever be the top of high tier. He has intense trouble dealing with Meta Knight, GaW, Pikachu, and Ice Climbers. Marth and Snake also provide problems, but not the extent of the aforementioned who always reside above him in reasonable tier lists. Not that I don't have faith in my main, it's just that if I know you're going to use Meta Knight, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, or Game & Watch, I'm not going to put myself in a bad situation when money is on the line.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is also applicable.

They did this for Melee tiers for almost every list except the very last one.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Your taking the names of the tiers too literal. Snake and MK are the best of brawl but Marth, Falco, G&W and ROB are good but slightly under them. Then the rest of the characters are in a seperate lower division in competitive play where there is more division in potencial. There just seems to be to outstanding characters(snake and MK) that deserve an exclusive tier but the others great characters (second group)should not be underestimated being put with the others who lack much better potencial and match-ups and tournament placings than the "left out" part of the cast

If you are at the top you can't really get any higher.

What probably will occur is something along these lines.

IMO Snake and MK aren't as greatly advantaged over the other characters as people believe. Anyways assuming branches are created it could go along the melty blood type of tier division (least i think it was melty. Was it Guilty Gear? **** it)


S rank
A tier
B tier
C tier
D tier
E tier
F tier

top
high
middle
lower
bottom

You get an additional two tiers.
It seem silly to say God tier since Snake and MK aren't unbeatable as people often say they are.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

@jiovanni007: Very strong. I like it.

I also like how there are more "winnable" characters in Brawl. Please don't flame me, but I very much hated seeing the same 6-7 chars at Melee tournies.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So you prefer seeing the same 2-3 characters rather than 6-7?
Why?
Not flaming just asking.

 

[Emblem Lord]

S tier = God tier.

Same thing really.

 

[hizzlum]

If you are at the top you can't really get any higher.

What probably will occur is something along these lines.

IMO Snake and MK aren't as greatly advantaged over the other characters as people believe. Anyways assuming branches are created it could go along the melty blood type of tier division (least i think it was melty. Was it Guilty Gear? **** it)


S rank
A tier-This should be added for the G&W, ROB, Marth, and Falco group
B tier
C tier
D tier
E tier
F tier

top
high
middle
lower
bottom

You get an additional two tiers.
It seem silly to say God tier since Snake and MK aren't unbeatable as people often say they are.

I agree with you that the tier names are off but don't you think that two more tiersmay be pushing it? Seems like a little too much division in my opinion but I understand that the middle and high tiers are getting a little too big.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Huh, the last brawl tourny I went to had 1 snake, 1 Meta, 1 marth, 2 ROBS, 1 Donkey Kong, 2 G&W, 1 zelda, 1 Ice climbers, 1 Kirby, 1 Toon Link and 1 Pit

The last melee tourny (a very long time ago) was all Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach and oddly only 1 Sheik and Falcon. There was also a Link, but he failed lol

I dunno, I'm just saying, I see more diversity in brawl

 

[BDawgPHD]

S tier = God tier.

Same thing really.

Actually, S tier = Snake tier.

lulz, Can MK be in the Snake tier?

But yea, they're not nearly as unbeatable as previously thought, but both of them have a huge margin of error....they can make many mistakes, but still win the match. But even Snake doesn't loom as high as people make him out to be, and MK is in the same situation. Although both are still the best.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah, I'd say either top/very high or god/top. I'm for the former because I truely think that MK/Snake aren't AS broken as they look now--falco has a decent matchup on snake, as does other percieved top chars, so even if they are slightly better than the rest of top, I think having them in the same tier as G%W, marht, falco would be acceptable

 

[hizzlum]

Actually, S tier = Snake tier.

lulz, Can MK be in the Snake tier?
.

LOL, Classic

 

[zamz]

I guess the goal would be to first rank the characters and then create 'tier categories' everywhere a significant gap between skill can be seen.

Right now it seems like a lot of people are creating category names first and then randomly sticking characters in each category. Which is fine...but...it makes the category names relatively meaningless.

Tier groups should be determined by a 'gap' of potential, where all characters in a tier are rated roughly the same in quality and skill. The first character in a tier category should not be significantly better than the last character in that category.

 

[BibulousDan]

Maybe its just me but i don't believe that there is a "god" tier, just very high or top. no character is at the position to be at god tier, not even Snake or Meta.

ACTIVATE ANTI FLAME SHIELD!

 

[biohazard930]

Okay, I say that it's now time to discuss Yoshi. It seems that often he essentially goes unmentioned and is just discarded to Bottom Tier or low Low Tier without much thought. His air game is pretty solid with the great killing ability of Nair and Uair. Fair and Dair (depending on the character, and footstooling is an option) can spike. Bair is a great approach. His ground game is weaker, but by no means terrible. His grab has decent range, and can pivot very well. The Egg Roll can be a good alternative approach at times, too. Egg Throw has good damage and can spice up anything.

Opinions?

 

[Sikarios]

Okay, I say that it's now time to discuss Yoshi. It seems that often he essentially goes unmentioned and is just discarded to Bottom Tier or low Low Tier without much thought. His air game is pretty solid with the great killing ability of Nair and Uair. Fair and Dair (depending on the character, and footstooling is an option) can spike. Bair is a great approach. His ground game is weaker, but by no means terrible. His grab has decent range, and can pivot very well. The Egg Roll can be a good alternative approach at times, too. Egg Throw has good damage and can spice up anything.

Opinions?

My only beef with Yoshi is that I wish his swallow and grab moves had just a teensy bit better range. And I've always loved egg throw but I'll accidently egg roll and get pwned. I've never been able to completely quell that.

 

[Corner-Trap]

There really only needs to be five tiers.

Top = Best
High = Above Average
Mid = Average
Low = Below Average
Bottom = Worst

It doesn't matter what you call them, so just because characters are placed within god tier doesn't mean their unbeatable, it doesn't even imply such a thing. Don't get to worked up over the names of the tiers, just worry about the characters positions on the tiers.

 

[biohazard930]

My only beef with Yoshi is that I wish his swallow and grab moves had just a teensy bit better range. And I've always loved egg throw but I'll accidently egg roll and get pwned. I've never been able to completely quell that.

I've still been known to do that, and I've been maining Yoshi for a long time. Then again, maybe I'm just not that great, anyway.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I think we should focus on the naming and divisions of characters into tiers later when we know more about them and have more solid opinions, etc., and instead focus on each character's potential. I think talking about Yoshi would be a good idea, since so many are ignorant of him and believe he sucks. But then again I guess we don't have to, since the 'recently accurate' tier list, the one that Snowstalker posted, is mostly agreed on, and Yoshi is in Middle Tier instead of Bottom or Low Tier like many other tier lists put him.

But I dont think we should really have a God Tier, unless if we find even more about them and conclude them are definitely broken characters. Having the names Top, High, Upper, Middle, Low, Bottom are fine. I guess we could have a lower also, but having more higher tiers than lower tiers makes the actual "Middle" be the between Upper and Middle, which may reduce the amount of people who think that Middle Tier doesnt include good characters.

Sorry if that last paragraph was confusing, but I have to go now . I'll try to explain more later unless if you guys get it.

 

[SonicLucario]

On the topic of Yoshi,here is what I think:
You think he sucks, until you lose to one.

 

[St. Viers]

Yoshi doesn't suck, but he just isn't better than otehr characters. Why don't people understand that?

I like yoshi, but I honestly see him at the top of low as his highest ranking >_<

 

[biohazard930]

Yoshi doesn't suck, but he just isn't better than otehr characters. Why don't people understand that?

I like yoshi, but I honestly see him at the top of low as his highest ranking >_<

Oh, people understand it; I just think some real discussion would be cool.

 

[St. Viers]

okay, real discussion on yoshi.

Because he can't jump from his shield, yoshi has to be either really smart or really offensive. Unfortunately, he can't be offensive as he needs to make up for his lack of defense. His b-air is a great approach, but it's range is kinda short. His ground game s below average, with his f-smash and d-tilt being the only moves with any sort of range.

n air, he fares better, but I don't think it makes up for his ground game. His grab range is okay, but the time it takes to grab makes it easy to dodge/punish, and I don't think his throws are that good (not quite sure)

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Yoshi has a good air game IMO, and took Jigg's spot for fastest air movement if my memory serves. Egg throw is good, but doesn;t seem to serve much purpose in recovering. Yoshi Bomb seems nerfed to me, but I think Yoshi's got the best Pivot Grab. Like said before, I think around low, but not really bottom. That's saved for Link, Ganondorf and the Captain.

-Again, my opinion, please explain why I'm wrong instead of flaming please,
much appreciated-

 

[biohazard930]

Yoshi has a good air game IMO, and took Jigg's spot for fastest air movement if my memory serves. Egg throw is good, but doesn;t seem to serve much purpose in recovering. Yoshi Bomb seems nerfed to me, but I think Yoshi's got the best Pivot Grab. Like said before, I think around low, but not really bottom. That's saved for Link, Ganondorf and the Captain.

-Again, my opinion, please explain why I'm wrong instead of flaming please,
much appreciated-

Your honest opinion is fine and what I want.

I find the Egg Throw as useful not only for recovery, but also for combo starting, juggling, spacing, and a general use projectile stall (with good damage). I think it's easily his most versatile move. I'm not sure if the power of the Ground Pound is nerfed, but it's better now when used on the ground. When adjacent to an opponent, it hits them and picks them up, ensuring the hit on the way down. It's a cool way to mix up and finish combos at times.

 

[Deleted member]

Where are people putting Zelda and Sheik on the tier lists? Zelda obviously seems to be one of the better characters in the game because of her insane range and KO potential (and Din's Fire of course). Sheik I'm not really sure what to think, the Ftilt combo is brutal but she seems to have a lot of trouble actually KOing people.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah, shiek isn't gonna be so high on tier lists (yet) because:

she was nerfed heavily from melee, meaning people don't like her

hard to get kills with

However, she isn't a bad char--he tilts still own, her b-air is still good, her tether=crazy mindgames, and her up B doesn't suck as an attack now

 

[Sikarios]

I, for one, don't find Yoshi bomb to be nerfed. It comes out hella fast and I still get many KO's with it.

 

[hizzlum]

There really only needs to be five tiers.

Top = Best
High = Above Average
Mid = Average
Low = Below Average
Bottom = Worst

It doesn't matter what you call them, so just because characters are placed within god tier doesn't mean their unbeatable, it doesn't even imply such a thing. Don't get to worked up over the names of the tiers, just worry about the characters positions on the tiers.

WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE NAMES, we just think that there is a group of brawlers(Marth, Falco,ROB,G&W and a few others) that are in a group ,slightly below snake and MK, who are the "top"/best tier, that deserve a tier as very good in competition. However, putting them into the "High"tier which is as you say above average, is oppressing their true potencial in brawl metagame. And with a dozen more characters in brawl, the "mid/high" tiers are getting very big so positioning so many people into a 10+ category would make it difficult to see how good the are compared to the rest. Maybe the "bottom" tier should be taken out and be part of the "low" tier beacuse brawl seems more balanced , i dont know. I just think we may need a new tier to put the "rest of the best" (Falco, ROB, G&W, Marth) in, without regarding them as similar in potencial as the rest of the above average characters.

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi's grab game is one of the best. The pivot grab comes out faster than anything else (grab wise), and it beats many atks. His ground game only adds to the combo side of him, and his air game is fairly decent (can't cover his ground game completely though). N-air can interrupt combos and has fairly good killing potential.

He can't jump out of shield nor and he roll fast. However, Yoshi cannot be shield poked from any character. His throws are not powerful (most it does is 8% I think), but the good thing about yoshi is that everytime he chews his opponents after grabbing them, you begin to regain full power in the other atks you use.

He has a decent amount of killing moves at his disposal, N-air, U-air, Down-B, U-smash, F-smash, F-air (both sweetspotted and not), and the D-air for gimping. His recovery is good now that he can use the UpB to recover and atk opponents when they attempt to kill him (not from under though).

If you need more let me know.

 

[Deleted member]

St. Viers, yoshis defensive game is very good, but its different. Instead of shielding and punishing, hes pivot grabbing, and a tech was discovered to do an extremely fast pivot grab. I hardly ever find myself shielding while playing yoshi. I think that yoshi is probably top of low, maybe bottom of mid, but only because everyone else is good too, and yoshi is definately tournaments viable.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if characters are similar in abilities, i see absolutely no reason why 10+ chars cant be on the same tier

 

[Fogo]

i'd say it's a close battle between snake and MK for top tier.


i would definitely say Dedede would be in the upper tier too if played right.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Not every character can be a top tier character. You can pick a mid or less tier character and train with them and be good with them but, that doesn't mean you'll be able to beat people with higher tier characters that are equally as good as them or better.

Take Meta vs random mid-bot tier, Meta will most likely **** 80% of those tier characters and maybe have some trouble with the other 20% because of the player's actual skill but, unless your opponent is like a girl or a random 10 year-old with no real experience with brawl (or any fighter for that matter) then the mid-bot tier character player will always be at a disadvantage and will be losing more matches than he's winning. You can't call a character top tier if you have to outplay someone using a top tier character to win. Besides, those tournament results with the S-D ranks speak for themselves as to who's top and who's not. It's actually pretty accurate for such a short amount of time Brawl has been out.

Match-ups matter and Tiers matter. The sooner you realize and accept this the faster you can get better at this game.

Note: In case a girl just happens to see this somehow and is offended. I'm basing that on the fact that there are like 0.01 girls that show up to gaming tournaments at any time. So, don't go all spazzy and defensive because you think I'm discriminating against girls. Most (if not all) girls that I know are bad at video games.

 

[Sudsy86_]

1) Ness will have good matchups and bad matchups.

Sure. Lucas, Mario, Luigi, MK, and G&W are all matchups I would say give Ness an inherent disadvantage.

Just because Ness is great at facing a specific character, does not mean that character is terrible. Likewise, if Ness has trouble with a character, that doesn't make it top tier. This just means Ness has strengths and weaknesses. Trying to create any reliable system of ranking based off one character's matchups will not work. In fact, all you'll get is a list of characters that work well/don't work well against Ness. That's not a tier list...

I never said anything you said I did was either necessarily true or the only basis for that character's tier placement. I won't bother with ad hominems since they'll probably get me banned. But, basically, you missed my points, zamz.

I never once said I based my entire tier list off one character and its performance against them. NE-VER. I did say I always play Ness against the space animals ( which itself was used as an exagerration), but I have worked with every character for probably at least...an hour and fifteen minutes--which includes training, cpu play, matchups against bad, mediocre, good, great, and amazing opponets, and analyzing what I watched in all of them.

My system is based off analyzing personal experience, analyzing videos, analyzing friend's play, and theoretical conclusions based off the previous three events. What else should I include? Anyways, your point would be valid in the right circumstances, you just missed what I said and don't understand the circumstances ( or at least didn't in that post).

2) A tier list is typically based off tournement results. Not necessarily tournement wins, but an analysis of high-ranked play. Unless you're playing at the very top of the skillpool, personal experience will not help you. The idea is to think theoretically, and suggest the potential of each character at it's best level. If a skilled yoshi and a skilled ness fought, who would win? Not: "If I played my friend who plays an okay yoshi, will I beat him?" That would produce a completely different kind of list.

Is it? If so, I still don't care, because I know I use characters who I know will be able to perform what, in my mind, will be an effective set of moves against a particular opponet in given circumstances.

But, of course this must not be the way pro's do it, right? I'm just some know-it-nothing who druels on himself while playing and is void of any thought, much less understanding. My mistake.

I know who's good, I know who's not. It's not rocket science; it's just not concrete either.
I know what to look for in players--which indicates a bit more than the actual match result.
I would be ****ed to hell if your analysis of any match was realistically more valid than mine.

The idea is to think theoretically, eh? So,the words I use don't resemble anything representing a thought remotely in the form of theorizing? WOW. I really need to hit the dictionary.

I'm sorry, but your example of thoughts are PROFOUNDLY less cirumstancial, thorough, and are simpler, than mine. Your example is not remotely close to mine. But, way to prove a non-existent point for us all.

3) The idea is not to create an opinion. A tier list isn't a top 35 favorite characters list. The goal is to combine many, many, many people's experiences togeather in order to create a working representation of potential skill. If you ignore the entire community and consider only yourself right while everyone else is wrong...you're not accomplishing anything worth looking at.

Again, you're not getting what I'm saying, zamz. I never said I was trying to influence an opinion, just giving mine. However, your list is still your opinion. Case closed there. If I were to give a top " My favorite characters list", it would be FAR different from the list I gave before. There is NO reason to think my entire reasoning is based off random personal preference. I gave reasoning when questioned. What is there not to see? You don't agree--that's fine! But don't accuse me of bs I never said or implied, because you clearly didn't take time to either read my entire posts or make sure you knew what idea my words meant.

Besides, I do recall specifying "a character's potential" as justification for a point I made.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Alright, I got 4 of the tier lists which everyone seemed to like and agree on. I put lists 1 and 2, beside each other and evened out the chars (i.e, Marth is position 3 on one, and 5 on another, Tier List 1+2 Combined would have Marth at position 4). I also did this with lists 3 and 4. Then, I got Tier List 1+2 and Tier List 3+4 and did the same with those to make Tier List 1+2+3+4.

I ALSO gave each character a numbered position based on their position in each Tier List. Snake being on top for one list would give him 37 points (As there are 37 characters) and MK would get 36 Points. So on and so forth. I added the points from each Tier List and divided by 4. Snake was the top for all 4 lists, so he got (37+37+37+37)/4 = 37. And that put him on top. I did this with each character and found that Numbered Tier List was almost identical to Tier List 1+2+3+4.

So without further ado, here is the Tier List:

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight

Upper:
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
R.O.B.
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf

High:
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pikachu
Wario
Kirby
Pit
Olimar
Zelda
Donkey Kong

Mid:
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Fox
ZSS
Bowser
Lucario
Lucas
Mario
Pokemon Trainer

Low:
Yoshi
Sonic
Ness
Peach
Sheik
Ike

Bottom:
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

That's the order they were in, I decided to try and divide the Tiers. But PLEASE comment and give suggestions