Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[SnatchForFree]

I just thought I should throw this out there, the knee is not that hard to sweetspot. You are making it seem like it's impossible. The hitbox changed a little, but after a little practice, it's not hard at all to sweetspot the knee.

 

[ShadowLink84]

hi Sonic wave.
Did you add anyone from the Sonic friend list?

 

[A2ZOMG]

*sigh this argument is starting to go in circles. Do you really go ona nd ignore everything?

Y'know I've been extremely patient... I don't know what your problem is.

With the fact its difficult to sweetspot?
Right.
Sonic has far moreoptions to combo and opponent and kill them than Falcon does nor are they as situational.
Again Sonic Fair>Falcon Fair.

That's why you D-air someone and then F-air them because it's actually a combo. You go to the Falcon forums and see for yourself.

Combos? WHAT combos?
Sonic has many combos branching off from his spindashes and many more setups to allow continous attacks and pressure.
Sonic's aerial air game is actually above par.

Uh no. I don't think Sonic has real combos unless I missed something. The combos I've been telling you actually raise the combo counter in training mode. Those are the ones you need to keep track of. And btw I could write paragraphs who CF has just as many attacks that put people in positions that are easy to follow up from, but that doesn't matter at all since those aren't real combos. So whatever for Sonic's so called pressure game when you can usually N-air out of it. <<

Sonic can combo much more easily and evne if he doesn't land a continous attack, it places the opponentin a position where he can attack them again.

As I stated earlier so uh, your statement here is pure BS. <<

When Falcon attempts this the opponent can counter more easily than when Sonic does it.
Do you just ignore parts of myposts.

Not rly, since Falcon has more range than Sonic.

O_o too much to decipher. I'ma gonna stop there.

I've talked to Inui and he says Falcon is better so w/e. You talk to him I guess since I just got lazy right now. I think I just quoted his reasons why Falcon is better and you tell him why he's wrong since he's actually a high level tourney player.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Y'know I've been extremely patient... I don't know what your problem is.

Like wise. You continously spout Sonic has no approach despite the fact a video aND a list has beengiven to you saying otherwise.

That's why you D-air someone and then F-air them because it's actually a combo. You go to the Falcon forums and see for yourself.

Yes but how often is it going to occur? How often does such a thing occur?
Its very situational, at least Ganon can flame choke to Dair and Fair.

Uh no. I don't think Sonic has real combos unless I missed something.

you obviously did.
Dtilt~>AAA/Utilt/grab
Spindash/charge~>spindash/charge jump~>Nair/Fair/Uair/Bair
6B special (aerial)~>Dair

The combos I've been telling you actually raise the combo counter in training mode.

As do the ones I've listed.
Try them out they are fun.

Those are the ones you need to keep track of.

And the most situational too.

And btw I could write paragraphs who CF has just as many attacks that put people in positions that are easy to follow up from, but that doesn't matter at all since those aren't real combos. So whatever for Sonic's so called pressure game when you can usually N-air out of it. <<

Go ahead and toss out a Nair. Sonic will promptly punish you like a wife who burnt the rice (bad pun)
With Falcon you can just Nair out of it and not worry about being punished as greatly. Sonic is excellent at punishing this is a fact.

As I stated earlier so uh, your statement here is pure BS. <<

o basically you resort to calling me a liar and rather than actually use the character you just choose to remain ignorant.
Brilliant/.

Not rly, since Falcon has more range than Sonic.

but with little priority to actually make that range count.
It would be lik Ike using his arm to swing. Yeah he ahs range, but the priority is little.

O_o too much to decipher. I'ma gonna stop there.

I've talked to Inui and he says Falcon is better so w/e. You talk to him I guess since I just got lazy right now.

So because INui says so you're gonna believe him over a person who mains Sonic.
Sorry i have spoken to one person who is ignorant concerning Sonic's gameplay, I am not going to speak to someone who is just as ignorant if not more.

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

Its been awhile since I've been on. Have my lower tier favorites gotten anymore credit since I've been gone?
Sonic, Mario, DK

... I know MK and Falco are gods already...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Riot won a 60 man tourney with DK. Boss took 3rd in some other tourney with Mario.

So because INui says so you're gonna believe him over a person who mains Sonic.
Sorry i have spoken to one person who is ignorant concerning Sonic's gameplay, I am not going to speak to someone who is just as ignorant if not more.

He's rly good, so yeah. He's actually played a lot of Ganondorf vs Sonic matchups.

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

Riot won a 60 man tourney with DK. Boss took 3rd in some other tourney with Mario.

He's rly good, so yeah. He's actually played a lot of Ganondorf vs Sonic matchups.

I have recently come realize how godly Mario's combo potential is. If you are fast enough to chain without getting counter attacked you can land five mid-air hits... thats my max so far (with only one Uptilt/Upsmash to start it).

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then he would known Ganondorf is at a disadvantage when facing Sonic correct?

if not he's a fool and has been playing alot of good ganon user vs. stupid Sonic user matchups.

 

[hizzlum]

Okay, so long as your not throwing words in Emblem Lord's mouth, I'm fine.

But, I still think that Marth is top tier, above everyone except Metaknight and Snake, and thats still up for debate. And there are a few things about your logic I don't like:

1. Never use that match up chart for info... ever. For one, its mainly based on middle level players opinions, not the pros. This will make it fundamentally flawed. The only reliable data you can use for tier placing is the Tournament Results list, and even that has to be taken with a grain of salt because of how new the game is. In that data, only DDD, Metaknight and Snake are above Marth, and Marth isn't nearly as popular as any of those characters by professional, tournament winning players. Shouldn't that make you wonder about his overall strength?

2. Never use the Japanese metagame as evidence for our own. There metagame develops vastly different from our own. They play differently, think differently, and place certain character traits higher than our own. I know they love controlling character with chaingrabs and speed, thus why Sheik was so popular with them in Melee, and Falco likely is for them now.

Its not that DDD MK Snake are popular, which they are, its that they win easily against highly skilled players and other characters have a more difficult time winning in brawl metagame. Regardless of being popular or not, their popularity should NEVER be a part of their tier placing people go to tournaments to win money easy, not have a hard time and lose a couple of bucks so they choose the characters that are outstanding in all categories of play (DDD is the exception)
Marth can't win tournaments as easy as that group, and thus he should be lower than them on the tier list.
And your comments on japanese metagame: are you being racist by generalizing that the japanese play and think in brawl differently than americans ? Furthermore why say they love speedy characters when aniki plays as link and captain jack is the best DK in the world?(melee) They are normal human beings like us who play the game just as good as us. They have had the game more than use and thus are more knowledgeable about the game and have found that falco is an amazing character,(http://youtube.com/watch?v=26l244eEzEY shows how bombsoldier has created falco's metagame once again for brawl).
I know that you did not want your message to go out as racist, but review what you say before posting a generalization about a group of people

 

[ShadowLink84]

He wasn't being racist no hint was even implied.

BAD HIZZLUM BAD!
NOW YOU OWE ME A COOKIE!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Then he would known Ganondorf is at a disadvantage when facing Sonic correct?

if not he's a fool and has been playing alot of good ganon user vs. stupid Sonic user matchups.

I disagree with him on mainly this, but he claims Ganondorf is the worst character in the game.

He puts Sonic one spot above Ganondorf in the bottom tier. He has told me that the actual matchup is even.

Go figure, but he's a good player from NJ (y'know, where M2K is from). And he's told me that CF and Sonic play similarly, but CF lives longer, has more KO power, more range, and has a few actually amazing attacks while Sonic doesn't have anything like that.

EDIT: Congrats on your 1000th post.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then he obviously is not a good player if he is saying such a thing.
Sonic lives longer.
While he has les KO ability the amount of damage he racks makes up for it.
Range CF has but less priority than Sonic and Sonic can make up for it with his speed.

Fair~Fair isn't amazing?

Don't listen to the idiot if he is saying that.

Tenki PROVED that a good ganondorf is at a large disadvantage when facing a good Sonic.
I doubt he is as good as you say if he is saying such things and if he is good, he missed a part in abstract concepts and reasoning.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No I can immediately tell you Sonic does not live longer than CF.

CF is heavier, and Sonic's recovery is actually worse than Falcon's.

 

[hizzlum]

He wasn't being racist no hint was even implied.

BAD HIZZLUM BAD!
NOW YOU OWE ME A COOKIE!

Definition of racism-a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement
what mah boy said "There metaggame develops vastly differently from our own. They play differently,think differently"
his words state that the japanese play the game differently than us and so he shows that he has a belief that there is an inherent difference amoung "us"(who was he refferening to? americans or the rest of the world) and the japanese, and so it falls in line with the definition of racism, thats how I came to the conclusion of my statement.

LOL. what kind of cookie, I like iced oatmeal best

 

[Grunt]

@you 2 arguing over CF and Sonic:

This has gone on long enough, not to mention in circles.
they are both the worst characters, does it matter which one is one place higher than the other? No. Are either of them viable in a pro tournament? No. Will an over abundance of Snakes and Metaknights destroy them both? Yes.

Sonic sucks.
Falcon sucks.
Get over it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*starts hitting you with a blunt object*
NO NO NO NO.

Seriously just no.
Just stop, shut up and think for a moment.

spinshot=massive horizontal recovery
Spring=massive vertical
homing attack=stops knockback when struck
Fair/Bair=pushes him in the direction of the attack.

Sonic's live typically to 150%


CF=below average horizontal movement and vertical. Good speed.
CF lives to much less than Sonic.
Weight doesn't mean anything if you don't have the recovery to support it.

This has gone on long enough, not to mention in circles.
they are both the worst characters, does it matter which one is one place higher than the other? No. Are either of them viable in a pro tournament? No. Will an over abundance of Snakes and Metaknights destroy them both? Yes.

Which is why Sonic has won 3 tournaments and beaten an MK and Snake to win it right?

Wait I hear something. It's reality hitting you.
For one Sonic is far from horrible, anyone who has used the character for a week would know this for sure. This is an A and B convo. If "C" wants to join in it has to provide reasoning behind its belies otherwise, remain silent.

his words state that the japanese play the game differently than us and so he shows that he has a belief that there is an inherent difference amoung "us"(who was he refferening to? americans or the rest of the world) and the japanese, and so it falls in line with the definition of racism, thats how I came to the conclusion of my statement.

Actually I interpreted it that because of the development of melee and brawl were different, that therefore the way they think and act concerning the game are different from our own.
This is somewhat true if you compare the character rankings in Japan to those of the U.S.

I don't believe he was insinuating an inherent difference, rather, differences that occurred because of how their metagame developed over time.
Sort of like allen and paul both meet up at point C but they take much more different routes.
Since Brawl is in its infancy this would support what he said.

Though it seems to fall more to interpretation. Let's wait for his return and reply.

Whatever cookie you want my friend
Whatever cookie you like.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No I can immediately tell you Sonic does not live longer than CF.

CF is heavier, and Sonic's recovery is actually worse than Falcon's.

WOW.

That's a bunch of horse****.

Sorry for the outright derisiveness, but you need to play Brawl more. Seriously. The only changes to Falcon's recovery that have been for the better is the fact that Side B can actually grab the edge now. Up B is still easily gimped and is horrendously easy to edgeguard.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

WOW.

That's a bunch of horse****.

Sorry for the outright derisiveness, but you need to play Brawl more. Seriously. The only changes to Falcon's recovery that have been for the better is the fact that Side B can actually grab the edge now. Up B is still easily gimped and is horrendously easy to edgeguard.

Smooth Criminal

Actually Falcon gets a HUGE amount of distance from his Up-B, and that has very good priority, so while it's predictable, it's not easily punished. Falcon has absolutely no trouble recovering in terms of distance, and actually has priority on his recovery. And yeah, his Side-B meteors anyone who ledgeguards Falcon badly. Sonic can do homing attacks back to the stage, which are much more easily punished. Also Sonic's Up-B sucks horribly. It can't grab the ledge, and it has a midair tripping glitch.

You might argue that you can attack after using Sonic's Up-B, but that really doesn't help since Sonic's aerial attacks kinda suck.

Basically, it's like this.

Good distance that is hard to punish >>> VERY good distance that is easy to punish.

 

[Iwan]

I disagree with him on mainly this, but he claims Ganondorf is the worst character in the game.

He puts Sonic one spot above Ganondorf in the bottom tier. He has told me that the actual matchup is even.

Go figure, but he's a good player from NJ (y'know, where M2K is from). And he's told me that CF and Sonic play similarly, but CF lives longer, has more KO power, more range, and has a few actually amazing attacks while Sonic doesn't have anything like that.

EDIT: Congrats on your 1000th post.

Agreed.

Falcon and Sonic both have bad priority, but at least Falcon has SOME moves with decent priority. Falcon's tilts are far more effective than sonics (both in range AND priority), and let's face it, Falcon is more effecient at KOing than Sonic. That's not saying much, but it still stands.

The knee's harder to sweet spot, yea...but at least it can still be used as a ledge hop move pretty effectively, and also as a move to use when you're playing on a stage with platforms (easier to hit with if your opponent's on a platform). Falcon's Up B has grab priority, is unblockable as a ledge hopped move, can be shield canceled for Dash>>Up b, and can slo be used right out of shield. His hyphen up smash gets ridiculous sliding distance and KO's at early percents (way early than a lot of people think falcon can KO at), and lastly, falcon has two fairly reliable Spikes.

Also, on the Dair>>Knee combo, YES...it's situational, but i've already begun to land it in actual matches (IRL, not wifi). It's not something you can spam, but it DOES work when set up right and it almost gaurantees a KO. Something Sonic can't do with any of his combos until extremely high percents.

Now, both characters can pressure pretty well, but i actually find sonic is better at that. The speed just makes him better at pressuring. But that's hardly good enough reason to put him ahead of Falcon in the tier list when Falcon does many, many more things better than sonic.

This is all opinion of course, and you can chalk me up for "Biased", considering I main Falcon.

Also, on a side note, Shadow link is right when he says that the western hemisphere plays a lot differently than the japanese. I recently watched some videos and they do everything so differently; approaches, edge guards, and not to mention they know the physics much, much better than we do right now. Really, watch some japanese brawl videos on youtube. The speed at which they play the game right now is ahead of where I live at least (The U.S.)

 

[Grunt]

*sigh*
Reposted for emphasis

@you 2 arguing over CF and Sonic:

This has gone on long enough, not to mention in circles.
they are both the worst characters, does it matter which one is one place higher than the other? No. Are either of them viable in a pro tournament? No. Will an over abundance of Snakes and Metaknights destroy them both? Yes.

Sonic sucks.
Falcon sucks.
Get over it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its very easily punished.
It doesn't cover a huge amount of distance.
If you wish to test this go to FD and stay on the outermost edge. Turn around then ^B as far as you can towards the center.
Now do this with Sonic.

Now notice the inherent speed and distance covered not ot mention Sonic can attack immediately upon using his recovery.

CF gets edgehogged to deathif not gimped to death.
His recovery covers only his front of his chest , any higher and lower and he doesn't grab the opponent and can be struck.
I believe you can also strike him in the fact as well provided its a disjointed hitbox.

Agreed.

Falcon and Sonic both have bad priority, but at least Falcon has SOME moves with decent priority. Falcon's tilts are far more effective than sonics (both in range AND priority), and let's face it, Falcon is more effecient at KOing than Sonic. That's not saying much, but it still stands.

you are joking yes?
Ftilt, Dtilt, U tilt all say otherwise in terms of priority and range,
His aerials Nair, Uair, Fair all have decent priority. Dair and Bair with less than average.
Does no one read my posts?

The knee's harder to sweet spot, yea...but at least it can still be used as a ledge hop move pretty effectively,

True enough.

and also as a move to use when you're playing on a stage with platforms (easier to hit with if your opponent's on a platform). Falcon's Up B has grab priority, is unblockable as a ledge hopped move, can be shield canceled for Dash>>Up b, and can slo be used right out of shield. His hyphen up smash gets ridiculous sliding distance and KO's at early percents (way early than a lot of people think falcon can KO at), and lastly, falcon has two fairly reliable Spikes.

Two reliable ones?
What his side B and Dair. both of which are extremelt situational.
His hyphen smash doesn't cover a ridiculous amount you mean his DAC.
His ^B has grab priority but you have to remember its range. It covers only his front the tp, bottom are very vulnerable and any sort of disjointed hitbox will knock through it.
I How often will an opponent be above you in a position for a successful ^B?
not often.
It is unblockable as a ledge hopped move but honestly why ^B when you can Fair?
Especially since the Fair leaves you less vulnerable if you nerf it. That and most don't stay near the ledge unless they have some sort of disjointe dhit box. (Link's Dsmash for example)
Yes he can kill at early eprcents but so can Sonic and Sonic's are not nearly as situational sine they usually involve gimping and because he can manipulate the spacing and situation more easily.

Also, on the Dair>>Knee combo, YES...it's situational, but i've already begun to land it in actual matches (IRL, not wifi). It's not something you can spam, but it DOES work when set up right and it almost gaurantees a KO. Something Sonic can't do with any of his combos until extremely high percents.

Of cours enot since they aren't meant to kill they are meant to gimp.
Even then a Fair~>Fair will definitely kill at lower percentages
or a Fair~>Dair which WILL kill at lower percentages.
Uair~Uair kills at 90% medium characters depending on the ceiling height.

Now, both characters can pressure pretty well, but i actually find sonic is better at that. The speed just makes him better at pressuring. But that's hardly good enough reason to put him ahead of Falcon in the tier list when Falcon does many, many more things better than sonic.

Riiiight.
This convo is over.
I am done repeating myself like a record.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Actually Falcon gets a HUGE amount of distance from his Up-B, and that has very good priority, so while it's predictable, it's not easily punished. Falcon has absolutely no trouble recovering in terms of distance, and actually has priority on his recovery. And yeah, his Side-B meteors anyone who ledgeguards Falcon badly. Sonic can do homing attacks back to the stage, which are much more easily punished. Also Sonic's Up-B sucks horribly. It can't grab the ledge, and it has a midair tripping glitch.

That's assuming that you can reliably exploit the air tripping gimmick, though. Good luck doing that, as any good Sonic player will "lol" at you as a spring drops down on your character's head and you are b-aired out of a stock. As for being unable to grab the ledge, have you ever heard of safely landing on the stage well past your opponent? Yeah. Last time I checked, hitting the edge while recovering is not always ideal and that isn't necessarily taken in to account when gauging recovery.

And distance does not a good recovery make. There's more to it then that, I think. And where did you get off that Falcon has insane priority on his Up B? That's only if it connects. We're talking about after the fact, A2, not before.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grunt]

if a recovery is longer, it means it's better. just look at pits.

 

[Browny]

bahaha sonics recovery worse than falcon.

ive changed my mind, sonics recovery IS the best in the game. he can recover from absolutely anywhere, all b moves act as recoveries which do not induce helpless state, travel beaneath every floating stage, cannot be gimped out of spring (invincibility frames), attempting the edgehog a homing attack results in stage spike, and he can recover over snakes wall-of-upsmash without any problems.

other characters with possibly better recoveries, ROB can be knocked out of his recovery by a rapid aerial spamming TL, luigi etc and MK can be punished when he decides to land or attack by anyone with a projectile or counter. Yes its difficult to gimp then, but the point is it can be done.

----
Are either of them viable in a pro tournament? No
----

pla read the tourney results thread before making comments like that.

 

[Sliq]

Really, watch some japanese brawl videos on youtube. The speed at which they play the game right now is ahead of where I live at least (The U.S.)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9W4Mr38r3bw

What was that again? Something about me being awesome and Japan kissing my ****?

Furthermore, we might as well just use Ankoku's list, since tier lists should be decide by tournament results anyways.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

if a recovery is longer, it means it's better. just look at pits.

I'm not disputing Pit, Grunt. But compare Pit's options to CF's options while recovering.

What do you think?

Smooth Criminal

 

[ShadowLink84]

Or even better Pit to ROB.
Anyways its 2 a I am going to sleep.
*sigh* maybe a sleeping pill or two...


Edit: I just noticed I am a smash lord and its my 1005th post.
WOOPEE!

 

[Iwan]

That's assuming that you can reliably exploit the air tripping gimmick, though. Good luck doing that, as any good Sonic player will "lol" at you as a spring drops down on your character's head and you are b-aired out of a stock. As for being unable to grab the ledge, have you ever heard of safely landing on the stage well past your opponent? Yeah. Last time I checked, hitting the edge while recovering is not always ideal and that isn't necessarily taken in to account when gauging recovery.

And distance does not a good recovery make. There's more to it then that, I think. And where did you get off that Falcon has insane priority on his Up B? That's only if it connects. We're talking about after the fact, A2, not before.

Smooth Criminal

Actually smooth....Falcon's up B does have some pretty stupid Priority on it. I've actually test it on a majority of the characters in the game. His up b outprioritizes the Dairs of a ton of the brawl cast, including Toon links dair, Zamus' dair, sonics dair, and even Ganondorf's. You just have to hit the side of the character, if that makes sense. Basically, as long as you aren't Up bing from directly underneathe them and catch them at an angle, Falcon always wins out the priority battle with his Up B (lol falcon winning a priority battle...can't believe i typed that).

 

[ShadowLink84]

So in other words use the ^B on someone where their hitbox is not covering them.
That's not taking advantage of priority.

Okay I am done promise *goes to sleep*

LOL@below poster.
NO really lets forget PIt loses an ^B when he is hit and can't activate it until a good amount of time passes.


or that Samus bomb jumping is owhere near as good as it was in melee.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

bahaha sonics recovery worse than falcon.

ive changed my mind, sonics recovery IS the best in the game.

Incorrect.
Sonic's recovery is very good, but there are many fighters, such as Pit, Meta Knight, or...hell, even Samus, who have better recovery than Sonic. I'm going to take Samus as an example since I know a lot about her.
Samus has a number of options. She can bomb jump, which gives her incredible horizontal distance. She can use her Grapple Beam, which is the longest tether recovery in the game if memory serves me right. In addition, Screw Attacking the edge from directly below it is a viable tactic as well.

 

[hizzlum]

Whatever cookie you want my friend
Whatever cookie you like.

Lol snickerdoodle?
I don't think he implied any supiriority over the japanese, I just think he should have not posted that comment to avoid deabte over the generalization
(someone please help figure out what the red dot means to the left of my post)

 

[Iwan]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9W4Mr38r3bw

What was that again? Something about me being awesome and Japan kissing my ****?

Furthermore, we might as well just use Ankoku's list, since tier lists should be decide by tournament results anyways.

hahaha...I've heard about your Gdorf Sliq and that video definitely didn't disappoint. Very impressive and very, very nice Ganondorf you have there man.

 

[Iwan]

So in other words use the ^B on someone where their hitbox is not covering them.
That's not taking advantage of priority.

I guess? I'm not really sure to be honest : /...although Falcon still takes the damage from the dair, but goes through it and still latches on.

sorry for the double post

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's assuming that you can reliably exploit the air tripping gimmick, though. Good luck doing that, as any good Sonic player will "lol" at you as a spring drops down on your character's head and you are b-aired out of a stock. As for being unable to grab the ledge, have you ever heard of safely landing on the stage well past your opponent? Yeah. Last time I checked, hitting the edge while recovering is not always ideal and that isn't necessarily taken in to account when gauging recovery.

Sonic's Up-B gains really little horizontal distance so it's pretty predictable. By the way, all other characters can do the same as Sonic by holding down on the control stick while Up-Bing. Sonic can never autograb the ledge, so OH WELL FOR HIM. His Up-B is basically like G&W's I guess, but 1/10 the effectivity.

And distance does not a good recovery make. There's more to it then that, I think. And where did you get off that Falcon has insane priority on his Up B? That's only if it connects. We're talking about after the fact, A2, not before.

Hah, that's actually what I've been saying. Sonic gets pretty good distance, but his recovery is bad because much of it is easily intercepted, and it's rather predictable, and he doesn't have nearly good enough aerial attacks to compliment the fact his Up-B allows him to attack. Falcon's gets about as good distance, but his Up-B has very good priority in front AND above him and goes quickly (try Up-Bing someone above you, you'll kinda warp to them in the process so yes, it has very good priority). Also he has the Raptor Boost spike to compete with Sonic's Up-B spike.

If you have a huge disjointed hitbox, it will more easily intercept Sonic than it will intercept Falcon.

Besides, Falcon initially gets very good distance by DIing alone since his air speed is good. My point still saying that Falcon's recovery gets the job done better.

Besides, this is not melee where Falcon's recovery dies against anyone who grabs the ledge. This is Brawl where you can grab ledgeghoggers and stagespike them. Or similar **** with the Forward B.

Summing it up both have rather predictable recoveries. Sonic can attack out of his, and gets some more distance which doesn't really matter, but he can't autograb the ledge with his Up-B. Falcon gets more than sufficient distance to recover, and has a very easy time going for the ledge, and his techniques used to recover have better priority and are more dangerous than anything else Sonic can pull off, making him harder in intercept overall.

Plus, Falcon is heavier. Basically going back to the point that Falcon survives longer than Sonic.

 

[Iwan]

Also shadow link, in regards to asking why use up b as a ledge hop as opposed to a fair....

Falcon's fair is waaaaay more punishable than an Up b as a ledge hop. If they shield your falcon's fair, it doesn't space enough to avoid from being punished. If you hit with the ledge hopped fair it's great, but if they shield it it's an awesome way to get punished. Ledge hopped up b can't be blocked, and has way more distance as a ledge hop than the fair. You can't really mess up using up b as a ledge hop, it's pretty fool proof.

 

[Cliche-Guevara]

Ok, Im going to try to derail the Sonic and CF pissing contest thats going on by giving you a list to look over and flame.

This list has been made through months of friendlies and local tournys around CO.

TOP
-Snake (Breaking any string of more than 2 moves with grenade drops is broken)
-MK

HIGH
-GaW
-Luigi (along with Wario, most underrated character right now imo)
-Rob
-DDD
-Wario (See Luigi)
-Marth
-Olimar
-Toon Link

MID
-Pit
-DK
-Pika
-Kirby
-ICs (Until I start seeing them dominating tournies w/ everyone infiniting eachother i wont place them higher.)
-Falco
-Diddy
-Shiek
-ZSS
-Zelda

LOW
-Lucas
-Wolf (Now that we know DSmash is spammable and he has good priority hes not that hard to deal with)
-Ness
-Fox (Too light to afford to trade hits with most of the cast)
-Ike
-Samus
-Link
-Lucario
-The Captain (Why cant you be good?!?)
-Sonic

BOTTOM
-Mario (I wish I could put Mario higher, but in my own experience and others in the CO community, we dont se him as that good. This could change, I see potential, but I haven't seen anything come of it yet.)
-Bowser
-Jiggly
-Yoshi
-Peach
-Ganon (He didn't deserve this, he really didn't)

I didn't add Pokemon trainer to the list because I have no experience with him at all. So any opinion I have on him is purely speculative, so I decided to just leave him out.


Just my 2 cents.

Discuss.

 

[Northbound]

Ok, Im going to try to derail the Sonic and CF pissing contest thats going on by giving you a list to look over and flame.

This list has been made through months of friendlies and local tournys around CO.

TOP
-Snake (Breaking any string of more than 2 moves with grenade drops is broken)
-MK

HIGH
-GaW
-Luigi (along with Wario, most underrated character right now imo)
-Rob
-DDD
-Wario (See Luigi)
-Marth
-Olimar
-Toon Link

MID
-Pit
-DK
-Pika
-Kirby
-ICs (Until I start seeing them dominating tournies w/ everyone infiniting eachother i wont place them higher.)
-Falco
-Diddy
-Shiek
-ZSS
-Zelda

LOW
-Lucas
-Wolf (Now that we know DSmash is spammable and he has good priority hes not that hard to deal with)
-Ness
-Fox (Too light to afford to trade hits with most of the cast)
-Ike
-Samus
-Link
-Lucario
-The Captain (Why cant you be good?!?)
-Sonic

BOTTOM
-Mario (I wish I could put Mario higher, but in my own experience and others in the CO community, we dont se him as that good. This could change, I see potential, but I haven't seen anything come of it yet.)
-Bowser
-Jiggly
-Yoshi
-Peach
-Ganon (He didn't deserve this, he really didn't)


Just my 2 cents.

Discuss.

Epic fail.

 

[Cliche-Guevara]

Good thing you told me why, and we had a nice intelligent discussion about it.

That way we both walked away with a better understanding of this game, would have sucked if you have been one of the ***** who isn't helpful.

...Oh wait

 

[Kaizo]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9W4Mr38r3bw

What was that again? Something about me being awesome and Japan kissing my ****?

Furthermore, we might as well just use Ankoku's list, since tier lists should be decide by tournament results anyways.

I gotta admit, that's actually really impressive.....that MK really sucks **** though, but it doesn't take away from how well-played your Ganondorf is.

</kissass>

Good thing you told me why, and we had a nice intelligent discussion about it.

That way we both walked away with a better understanding of this game, would have sucked if you have been one of the ***** who isn't helpful.

...Oh wait

Shut your mouth, if your tier list was even close, I'd at least acknowledge its existence.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Shut your mouth, if your tier list was even close, I'd at least acknowledge its existence.

At least that tier-list doesn't have Ike anywhere near the top.


I really should make a temporary gimmick out of how much I hate Ike.