Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[St. Viers]

Chozen, I don't think you are giving olimar enough credit. His only downfall is his tether recovery, and his weight; 90% of the time the tether isn't an issue, as he'll recover high or die due to his weight. He has enough disjointed range, quick attacks, and pressure to be really good.

Also, micromanaging pikmin isn't as hard as people think, especially while you are in the air/while the opponent is. I don't see olimar as top, but I can see him in the 2nd tier (under MK, snake, G&W, DDD, Falco, Marth, (tier 1). I know personal experience isn't the best recommendation, but I play a pretty nasty olimar, and it feels more frustrating than playing MK, because of the quickness olimar can rack up damage and kill you.

Also, he can grab you from on the ledge. I mean, seriously...

 

[Deleted member]

Also, Olimar is actually very good. His only downfall is his recovery and lightness, but Olimar has too much range and raw power to be pushed around. He's like Ivysaur, but with far more power, far better/stronger aerial control, far better grabs, far better attacks, far better projectiles, far better camping, and far better awesomeness. That's why he's so good, you need to play with a good Olimar before you make judgements. And I don't mean your kiddy bk friend's Olimar, I mean a tournament-worthy Olimar. I've played against my friend's Olimar with my gimping beast of an MK (my MK is very good, would probably demolish any character you ever use ever) and he goes about even with me.

Chozon has one of the best Robs in the US. Have u ever even been to a tournament??? U just said not to base things off of beating ur friends while u just said that. Also dont brag about how good u are, u probably suck . Chozon, i see what ur saying, but i do think olimar should be at least low tier, and DK should be higher as well (Dk has good matchups against the higher tiers, and he has tournament results to back him up, he has been placing decently). Also i think kirby should be moved up to low, he does well against the mid and low tiers, and has the ability to not get owned by high tiers (plus being decent against snake counts for something in a game filled with snakes).

 

[Oracle]

Can someone please explain what "gaying" is?

 

[Unusual_Rex]

According to some of your opinions and Rankings list, and match up, in the next day or two, I'll be updating the list a bit more. I hope it will become more accurate. I'll give more reasoning as to why I have placed the characters were they are.

 

[Evan BlazE]

has the offical tier list came out yet...?

I would like to see where kirby, Lucario, Luigi & Pit are at..

 

[Deleted member]

Can someone please explain what "gaying" is?

Uhh it means being gay =P I guess it sorta means gimping, like MK gays u when he does rising uairs to tornado gimp.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

No official list is out yet. Kirby is around Low-Mid, or High-Low, Lucario is around Mid-Mid, to High-Mid, Luigi is Low-Mid, to Mid-Mid, and Pit is around Mid-High, to Low-High.

 

[isomorphism]

Unusual Rex, is it just me or does your tier list not actually have every character?

Edit: It looks like you're just missing Donkey Kong... I thought you were missing a few others as well but I counted and you aren't.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Whoops, when I was editing, I think I went to move him and forgot, sorry about that. I'll fix it when I update it.

 

[boss8]

Ummm... look at the match up chart and character rankings list...

that doesn't mean shizz i can **** half the characters that thing says i can't......sry bro tiers don't exist...

 

[Kaizo]

Olimar should definitely be close to the top, I don't see how he could be even remotely near the bottom, let alone out of the top 10.

Where's chozen from, anyway?

 

[Unusual_Rex]

that doesn't mean shizz i can **** half the characters that thing says i can't......sry bro tiers don't exist...

Ummm... your obviously mistaken. Tiers do exist. Just because you can beat people doesn't make a character the best.

Tiers are just which characters are more likely to win.

Example: Snake may be a higher tier than Mario, but does that mean 100% of the time Snake will win? No! It just means if both characters are at equal skill Snake will have a higher chance of winning.

 

[boss8]

Ummm... your obviously mistaken. Tiers do exist. Just because you can beat people doesn't make a character the best.

Tiers are just which characters are more likely to win.

Example: Snake may be a higher tier than Mario, but does that mean 100% of the time Snake will win? No! It just means if both characters are at equal skill Snake will have a higher chance of winning.

tiers are for queers it depends on the player...i don't care if u are the best with that character any other random character can still beat u .........i mean in other words anyone would just be a tierwhore like they are now...how many metaknights are in the usa???....like half the freakin nation..

then again i don't mind fighting any character cause i no there rutine......except deedeedee i hate that penguin.....im not complaining.....this tier thingy is basically just a popularity contest and who to counter against who there worst matchups are.......im done u sir GTFO or face the wrath of mario facepalm..

 

[adumbrodeus]

that doesn't mean shizz i can **** half the characters that thing says i can't......sry bro tiers don't exist...

You mean "tires don exits"...

Seriously, it's impossible for two different things to be equal in overall ability, because that requires infinite perfection, and I don't think smash has that attention to detail.

Sure, you can beat a high tier character with a low tier character, but character ability is a multiplier for skill, so if you're more skilled, you'll win with a weaker character. That doesn't change the fact that with equal skill, the stronger character doesn't have the advantage.

*pound*

I agree with you my good sir.

Lol, you just agree because I chose yours, right?

Regardless, I'll pm the AlphaZealot about it, see what he thinks.

 

[boss8]

ok your right here let me make the list for you.......

top tier:
metaknight
snake

Bottom tier:
everyone else.........Bam!! there it is...

 

[Kaizo]

tiers are for queers it depends on the player...i don't care if u are the best with that character any other random character can still beat u .........i mean in other words anyone would just be a tierwhore like they are now...how many metaknights are in the usa???....like half the freakin nation..

Let's put it this way.....tiers determine how well a character capitalizes on mistakes versus how badly they suffer from their own mistakes....in Melee, if Bowser made one or two mistakes against Fox, he would lose a stock very quickly, but if a Fox made 7 or 8 mistakes against Bowser, that Fox would still be in relatively good shape. Fox versus Falcon......Falcon could combo anyone very easily, especially Fox, but he couldn't afford to make any mistakes because he was very easily comboed and had no viable recovery options.

Someone like Snake in Brawl is very heavy and strong with a good recovery and many options, and can more or less do whatever he wants, and doesn't pay for mistakes as badly. Mario, however, doesn't have a great deal of approach options, and his recovery is bad and predictable. A good Mario could win against a good Snake, but he has to make far fewer mistakes to do so.

 

[Deleted member]

Olimar should definitely be close to the top, I don't see how he could be even remotely near the bottom, let alone out of the top 10.

Where's chozen from, anyway?

Uhh i think hes from VA. Its fine that u think that,it may be true, it may not, but dont try and act like ur better than someone ur not, or good in general. I personally think that olimar is overrated, but that he is still a pretty good character, but that as people get better, he will get worse.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I am from Md/Va.. aka the BEST smash region in the country.

Ok.. enough smashers have commented on my placing of Olimar that i'll probably have to retaylor where he is at.. same w/ Kirby.. i really have to say though.. the first 2 tiers are pretty set imo.. the placings may change but i doubt the toons will.

 

[Kaizo]

Uhh i think hes from VA. Its fine that u think that,it may be true, it may not, but dont try and act like ur better than someone ur not, or good in general. I personally think that olimar is overrated, but that he is still a pretty good character, but that as people get better, he will get worse.

Well, to be fair, you don't know me, so you can't discredit me, but I don't know chozen, so I can't really discredit him, that's my fault, I have a tendency not to give people the BotD. I did go to a brawl tournament recently, and I didn't place too well or anything (25th out of 99), but I did play pretty well against PC Chris and Jinx, for what it's worth (both placed 2nd and 4th, respectively)

Anyway, no matter what you said, Olimar is top 10 for sure, just play a good Olimar. A REALLY GOOD Olimar. Seriously, play with one that seriously challenges you. If you can't find one, I apologize, I guess we're lucky up here in MA.

 

[Frown]

ok your right here let me make the list for you.......

top tier:
metaknight
snake

Bottom tier:
everyone else.........Bam!! there it is...

no dat sux cuz sonic is to low

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Its funny b/c i'm from Boston >_>;

 

[Kaizo]

Its funny b/c i'm from Boston >_>;

lmao...did you go to MM9?

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

dude.. this was like 10 years ago >_<;

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Edit: Whoops nevermind.

 

[Kaizo]

dude.. this was like 10 years ago >_<;

oh.....whoops =3

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

W H O O P S

 

[Deleted member]

Ive only played like 1 good olimar, i didnt have too much trouble, but yoshi does pretty well against olimar, so i dunno. I beat lots of scrub olimars tho =)

 

[Matador]

Ummm... look at the match up chart and character rankings list...

That list was created mostly by people who haven't even played a good mario. He's the most underrated character on the entire roster. Period.

Were you aware that Mario's cape can actually cause Pika's thunder to attack him instead, if caped as it's coming down (Which is surprisingly easy to do). The same can be done with Snake's Usmash, and Charizard's Side B. Of course you weren't aware, because you haven't played a good mario, much like most of these boards.

Mario can gimp nearly ALL of the cast with the cape (With the fludd as well under certain circumstance), is one of the only characters still capable of solid combos, and is VERY capable when it comes to edgeguarding.

I'm not saying he's top tier, or even high at the moment. I'm saying that putting him in bottom/low tier is ******** if you're basing his placement on anything other than tourney results.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Olimar may be overrated but in noway is he a terrible character.

That list was created mostly by people who haven't even played a good mario. He's the most underrated character on the entire roster. Period.

Were you aware that Mario's cape can actually cause Pika's thunder to attack him instead, if caped as it's coming down (Which is surprisingly easy to do). The same can be done with Snake's Usmash, and Charizard's Side B. Of course you weren't aware, because you haven't played a good mario, much like most of these boards.

Mario can gimp nearly ALL of the cast with the cape (With the fludd as well under certain circumstance), is one of the only characters still capable of solid combos, and is VERY capable when it comes to edgeguarding.

I'm not saying he's top tier, or even high at the moment. I'm saying that putting him in bottom/low tier is ******** if you're basing his placement on anything other than tourney results.

Just because he's low doesn't mean he's unplayable. I've seen videos on YouTube of Mewtwo ****** a Sheik. Mewtwo was bottom tier.

I'm sure as more ranks come in, the match up chart becomes more complete, and more character specific AT's come in it will change drasctically. But for now I think the highest mario will go is Mid-Mid, to high-mid.

 

[Matador]

Just because he's low doesn't mean he's unplayable. I've seen videos on YouTube of Mewtwo ****** a Sheik. Mewtwo was bottom tier.

I'm sure as more ranks come in, the match up chart becomes more complete, and more character specific AT's come in it will change drasctically. But for now I think the highest mario will go is Mid-Mid, to high-mid.

Your post doesn't even respond to what I just said...

 

[St. Viers]

chozen, come anyways...I mean, maine and NH come, and ppl from NY.

Good times, even if I don't actually go, I can promote ^_^

 

[adumbrodeus]

That list was created mostly by people who haven't even played a good mario. He's the most underrated character on the entire roster. Period.

Which match-ups are wrong?

Were you aware that Mario's cape can actually cause Pika's thunder to attack him instead, if caped as it's coming down (Which is surprisingly easy to do). The same can be done with Snake's Usmash, and Charizard's Side B. Of course you weren't aware, because you haven't played a good mario, much like most of these boards.

Actually, you'd be surprised, a number of us know that esoteric moves are considered projectiles and can be reflected by any of the reflectors, Mario's cape included. For example, did you know that Lucario's force palm flame is a projectile (and therefore can be caped)?

Mario can gimp nearly ALL of the cast with the cape (With the fludd as well under certain circumstance), is one of the only characters still capable of solid combos, and is VERY capable when it comes to edgeguarding.

And nobody is denying that, but it all means little in the vacuum, which match-ups does it change?

 

[Kaizo]

Which match-ups are wrong?


Actually, you'd be surprised, a number of us know that esoteric moves are considered projectiles and can be reflected by any of the reflectors, Mario's cape included. For example, did you know that Lucario's force palm flame is a projectile (and therefore can be caped)?



And nobody is denying that, but it all means little in the vacuum, which match-ups does it change?

I don't really look at the matchup thread because it's mostly full of **** (bowser has like 5-8 bad matchups, not like 25, kthnx). I do agree that the people that made that thread are noobs, but I don't know Mario well enough to really look at it and tell you which ones are wrong. Mario has bad matchups because he has low range, par-subpar priority (i tihnk), and a bad recovery, so I don't know which matchups would actually favor him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't really look at the matchup thread because it's mostly full of **** (bowser has like 5-8 bad matchups, not like 25, kthnx). I do agree that the people that made that thread are noobs, but I don't know Mario well enough to really look at it and tell you which ones are wrong. Mario has bad matchups because he has low range, par-subpar priority (i tihnk), and a bad recovery, so I don't know which matchups would actually favor him.

The specific cases and why?

If nothing else, it's a reference point that we can use to decide what the match-ups actually are in order to build our tier list. But in order to do that, we need to exactly what is in error, generalities do not help, at all.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Mario may be good at some stuff, but that doesn't out weigh his disadvantages. He's light, bad recovery, not insanely strong, and not that fast.

 

[Matador]

Which match-ups are wrong?


Actually, you'd be surprised, a number of us know that esoteric moves are considered projectiles and can be reflected by any of the reflectors, Mario's cape included. For example, did you know that Lucario's force palm flame is a projectile (and therefore can be caped)?



And nobody is denying that, but it all means little in the vacuum, which match-ups does it change?

I'd like to start with, say, the Mario vs Pit Matchup and work from there. Do you agree that Pit > Mario in that matchup?

Edit: Unusual_Rex, Kaizo. Explain to me how Mario's recovery is "Bad". In comparison to the rest of the cast, I'd believe it to be average.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

His Up-B isn't that great, and since he's fairly floaty he's easy to edge guard.

 

[Kaizo]

I'd like to start with, say, the Mario vs Pit Matchup and work from there. Do you agree that Pit > Mario in that matchup?

Edit: Unusual_Rex, Kaizo. Explain to me how Mario's recovery is "Bad". In comparison to the rest of the cast, I'd believe it to be average.

IMO any recovery that can't recover from any point on the map is "bad", considering that most of the cast has a recovery that is that good (good as in living until forcibly knocked outside the boundaries of the level. The only exceptions are Bowser and DK, who are heavy and thus will stay on the stage for a long time, and when they get knocked off they will survive, and will compensate height-wise with good DI (big conditions, eh?) Even so, their recoveries are still subpar and are only aided by the fact that they live to very high percentages before they get knocked off.

Mario's upB doesn't have the height and length needed for a good recovery, and that's really his only recovery option.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd like to start with, say, the Mario vs Pit Matchup and work from there. Do you agree that Pit > Mario in that matchup?

Edit: Unusual_Rex, Kaizo. Explain to me how Mario's recovery is "Bad". In comparison to the rest of the cast, I'd believe it to be average.

Yeah, I find that when a Pit and Mario player are about equal in skill, Pit has the edge in general. I assume you disagree, so, why?

 

[isomorphism]

He lost the tornado and he doesn't have great aerial speed, which limits his horizontal recovery. The cape helps, and I wouldn't say he has terrible recovery, but given how broken most characters' recovery is in Brawl I think it's average at best, and while I don't use Mario enough to be at all certain of this I think it may be below average.