Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Yes but thats assuming she lost her double jump. Typically they don't go for the edge

This is so true for just about anyone who has a tether recovery. Why in good reason would I aim for a ledge that will likely screw me over? Why wouldn't I go for the edge and increase my options? Silly people.

Now, when your FORCED to recover in that manner, yes they are screwed... but how often does that happen to light... floaty character like Olimar & Zamus?

 

[???????]

Ch0zen0ne is a very intelligent player and I believe his tier list is more than simple speculation; there are many things on the list that are obviously debatable, but I implore all of you to be open-minded when criticizing the list or starting a debate.

 

[DanGR]

Yes but thats assuming she lost her double jump. Typically they don't go for the edge

I'm glad you brought it up. For Olimar also, he shouldn't use his double jump either unless recovering. He can easily make it back most of the time, unless his opponent edgeguards well.(like they should against ANY character)

The fact of the matter is that this whole discussion on recoveries isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be. If you ask me, chars like Olimar, Sheik, and ZSS shouldn't drop a whole tier b/c of a simple recovery flaw. Good players won't use the double jump outside of recovering, and other good players will edgeguard ANY character they encounter and will most likely finish them off (generally). In melee, Fox didn't drop any b/c of his easily gimped recovery-he stayed 1st overall. if you hit them off, (melee characters) it was unlikely they'd get back safely. Even if they made it back unharmed, they've probably got a high percentage on them, so it shouldn't be too hard to knock them off again with some patience.

My point is that if you have reasoning like this:

"Hmm... Olimar is good, he's highest tier good-above say DDD..., BUT his recovery sucks, so he should move down 10 places below Zelda...yes..."

If you think like this^, I think you're grading Olimar falsely-giving his recovery too large a portion of the total points, and giving the rest of his paper (the insane grab range, awesome projectile, great priority, speed, power, and racking ability, and shortness) a small proportion of the total points.

Make sense?(Do I need to clarify?)

 

[ShadowLink84]

I agree with dangr a hundred percent. however one thing, while Fox was gimpable in melee he wasn;t encessarily as gimpable as Olimar.
If it weren't for Olimar being so light he would die much more early.
Pity Link's recovery sucks *sigh*


Why is Sonic till being classified as bottom tier?
I suppose no one ever bothers with the tournament listings or the sonic forum video archive.

*sigh*

 

[A2ZOMG]

I watched quite a few videos of Sonic, and honestly I think the only reason why Sonic places at all in tournaments is because nobody really knows how to play against him.

I see many, many instances where Sonic does something I consider telegraphed, but the opposing player as good as he or she may be just doesn't know the matchup well enough to properly space attacks where Sonic will end up.

 

[wasabicheese]

which page is ch0zen's tier list on?

 

[Browny]

nah, people are still caught in the mindset when brawl came out that all you have to do is press jab and every character can beat all of sonic approaches (down b) just by pressing a

/sarcasm

same with lucario, still so many people base thier judgements of training mode and his f-air doing 4%, and his upb not doing damage. ever noticed how olimars extremely high priority and damaging up b rarely saves him from being gimped? theres a lot more to consider, especially floatiness and a powerful stage spiking projectile to deter edgeguarders

 

[ShadowLink84]

I watched quite a few videos of Sonic, and honestly I think the only reason why Sonic places at all in tournaments is because nobody really knows how to play against him.

Right because the Falco Mr. 3000 beat up surely had no experience with Sonic.
please if Sonic was so bad as YOU think he is he wouldn't win 3 tournaments or place in the top eight.
Meanwhile Falcon whom you say is better in every way has what? 0
Kthxbai
QUOTE=A2ZOMG;4639360]
I see many, many instances where Sonic does something I consider telegraphed, but the opposing player as good as he or she may be just doesn't know the matchup well enough to properly space attacks where Sonic will end up.[/QUOTE]
You consider telegraphed?
Laughable idea is laughable.
For one even when his moves are telegraphed they are very ahrd to interrupt.
Side B initial hop has very high priority.
Down B is very very fast.

You may THINK its easily telegraphed simply since you are watching, however when you are sitting there you really have NO clue as to what Sonic will do.
no matter how well experienced you may be in facing him you're definitely not gonna be predicting his moves anytime soon.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Right because the Falco Mr. 3000 beat up surely had no experience with Sonic.
please if Sonic was so bad as YOU think he is he wouldn't win 3 tournaments or place in the top eight.Meanwhile Falcon whom you say is better in every way has what? 0
Kthxbai
QUOTE=A2ZOMG;4639360]
I see many, many instances where Sonic does something I consider telegraphed, but the opposing player as good as he or she may be just doesn't know the matchup well enough to properly space attacks where Sonic will end up.

You consider telegraphed?
Laughable idea is laughable.
For one even when his moves are telegraphed they are very ahrd to interrupt.
Side B initial hop has very high priority.
Down B is very very fast.

You may THINK its easily telegraphed simply since you are watching, however when you are sitting there you really have NO clue as to what Sonic will do.
no matter how well experienced you may be in facing him you're definitely not gonna be predicting his moves anytime soon.[/QUOTE]



But you have to realize something.....what has he done of recent. One flaw in Ankoku's list is that if a character gets a couple of wins iand goes on a one/two week *Hot streak*, but then other characters keep consistently placing more commonly recently, somehow the character up will stay that way, even if they have basicially gone to a stand still. You CANNOT deny that Sonic has not placed nearly was well as he had early on. Even then, as of the time of this post, 5 top8 finishes, 4 top4 finishes, and 3 wins isn't all that much considering how many more consistent placings other characters are getting, those 3 wins are just really holding him up when he quite possibly could and probably should be lower.


Now granted I don't want to join this arguement.....I just wanted to point that key tidbit out in that part of your arguement.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But you have to realize something.....what has he done of recent. One flaw in Ankoku's list is that if a character gets a couple of wins iand goes on a one/two week *Hot streak*, but then other characters keep consistently placing more commonly recently, somehow the character up will stay that way, even if they have basicially gone to a stand still. You CANNOT deny that Sonic has not placed nearly was well as he had early on. Even then, as of the time of this post, 5 top8 finishes, 4 top4 finishes, and 3 wins isn't all that much considering how many more consistent placings other characters are getting, those 3 wins are just really holding him up when he quite possibly could and probably should be lower.

Except that even if he were to lose those 3 wins -15 points he would still be considered in C rank.
not only that but the major flaw isn't that Ankoku's list works on hot streaks, it is based on popularity. The fact thtat Sonic is actually underplayed and still placing well says alot.
He would still remain in C rank.
The hot streak argument really does not stand too well because of the popularity of each character.
Sonic has been all ove rhte place.
However as a result of those mixed wins he's been in the middle.
If you look at more recent tournaments you'll notice that Sonic has dropped and remained somewhat in the middle during placement.

Now granted I don't want to join this arguement.....I just wanted to point that key tidbit out in that part of your arguement.

No problem.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Her biggest asset was din's fire, which people figured out how to dodge in like 3 days. People just don't seem to have a problem dealing with her.

And now Zelda players are figuring out how to hit people anyway.

He'll have trouble if he has already used his double jump before he got launched off. If not, there shouldn't be any trouble at all. This is a very common misconception about Olimar. He's light too. Olimar is mostly going to die from getting hit off the screen, not off the stage. He can float horizontally more than most characters can. This helps him a lot to get back to the stage. His fair and upair have great priority so attacking isn't an issue either. Upb has insane priority so you can't really go out to attack him if you know he's gonna make it to the ledge before you do. It seems like everyone's opinion is that his recovery just sucks balls and if he's hit off, he's gonna die.(not true at all) I'd go as far to say that Sheik and Zelda have worser recoveries than Olimar does, not only Ivysaur.

*bolding added

*violently resists urge to be a grammar Nazi*

Ok, I'm good.


Zelda's recovery has enormous range and you can do it in 16 directions (not 4, not 8, 16), so it's really easy to sweetspot the ledge or land on the appropriate area of the stage if you so desire.

It's precision makes it very technical and easy to underestimate, don't, it may stop on stages, but the only reason that you'd appear there is that your direction was off, practice more.


Yeah it's a bit slow in coming out, but about as fast as the spacies, and it's immense range and precision makes up for it.

The hitbox at the end is a nice bonus.

I'm glad you brought it up. For Olimar also, he shouldn't use his double jump either unless recovering. He can easily make it back most of the time, unless his opponent edgeguards well.(like they should against ANY character)

I don't think you understand. The point is the Zelda player can, using her ^b, almost always option for either ledge or someplace on the stage. Having her double jump gives you the ability to make that decision even when recovering vertically.

She still needs her recovery.

Having his double jump doesn't save him at far too many percents, he needs to tether WAY to often.

The fact of the matter is that this whole discussion on recoveries isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be. If you ask me, chars like Olimar, Sheik, and ZSS shouldn't drop a whole tier b/c of a simple recovery flaw. Good players won't use the double jump outside of recovering, and other good players will edgeguard ANY character they encounter and will most likely finish them off (generally). In melee, Fox didn't drop any b/c of his easily gimped recovery-he stayed 1st overall. if you hit them off, (melee characters) it was unlikely they'd get back safely. Even if they made it back unharmed, they've probably got a high percentage on them, so it shouldn't be too hard to knock them off again with some patience.

The problem is, tether recoverers are forced to sweetspot the ledge after their double jump. At that point, ledgehogging is complete death to them, whereas other characters have a choice. This causes an opponent to be forced to choose whether to edgehog or edge-guard. If so, when? Since recoveries in this game tend to be good, the recovering char generally has options about how and when to approach, unless they are recovering from their absolute limit, which is very rare.


With tethers, this doesn't hold, one strategy works against them all the time, and there's nothing they can do about it. Ledgehog, ASAP, if there's somebody there, the tether cannot connect to the ledge and they're screwed. No invincability frames issue to worry about like most ^b attacks, just be there. If the opponent hits them beyond the range of their second jump and the opponent is anywhere near the ledge, a tether is screwed. No ifs, ands, or buts.

My point is that if you have reasoning like this:

"Hmm... Olimar is good, he's highest tier good-above say DDD..., BUT his recovery sucks, so he should move down 10 places below Zelda...yes..."

If you think like this^, I think you're grading Olimar falsely-giving his recovery too large a portion of the total points, and giving the rest of his paper (the insane grab range, awesome projectile, great priority, speed, power, and racking ability, and shortness) a small proportion of the total points.

Make sense?(Do I need to clarify?)

The reason is quite simple, RECOVERY IS JUST THAT IMPORTANT! When you're pretty much guaranteed a death when hit off the edge at around 60, you better be doing a hell of a lot more damage or be a hell of a lot harder to get to 60 or be a hell of a lot harder to hit off the ledge then the rest of the cast because most of the cast lives past 100.

All those attributes mean little if you're not around to actually use them for long at all.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't understand how people can still think Sonic's recovery is "telegraphed" or "gimpable" or anything along those lines. It just seems like ignorance at this point.
Unlike, say, Captain Falcon mains, Sonic players have truly shown that their character can do great things, and yet the general smash community seems to ignore this and focus on what everyone said about a month ago.
In reality, Sonic is a totally unpredictable character. Unlike Wario, who achieves the same results with quirky movements, Sonic is unpredictable because so many of his moves start out the same way with the same animation (usmash, nair, dsmash, sideB, neutralB, downB...) and a person could guard against one move but be confronted with a different one.
Add the fact that Sonic can run and jump circles around his opponent and almost always get back from off the edge, and in theory you have a very strong character. The ultimate goal for Sonic players is finding a way to harness his undeniable amount of potential, and some Sonics are already on their way to accomplishing that goal.

Just my two cents...

 

[A2ZOMG]

You may THINK its easily telegraphed simply since you are watching, however when you are sitting there you really have NO clue as to what Sonic will do.
no matter how well experienced you may be in facing him you're definitely not gonna be predicting his moves anytime soon.

In the videos I've watched, I've seen so many instances where Sonic player uses a spin dash. Other player sees it coming but misses by like two inches. Honestly I don't think Sonic is that safe if players are getting within two inches of owning him.

The tourneys are dominated by other characters, so at least people like me don't see Sonic nearly as often so I just think once people get a little more technical control of the matchup vs Sonic it's only going to go downhill from there.

Sonic is unpredictable because so many of his moves start out the same way with the same animation

I highly doubt that's the real reason he's unpredictable at all. I would guess it is more because of his ability to move on the stage. If anything even in the spin charging up stance of Sonic's moves, those have many variations.

Also, Captain Falcon wasn't as popular, and had developed his advanced techniques later than Sonic, so I expect to see him doing a fair bit better in tourneys soon.

 

[Quik17]

Here is what I think the tier list should look like.

Top Tier
Meta Knight (Hard to argue his placement)
Snake (See above)

High Tier
Mr. Game and Watch (The comeback kid / Has the potential to even be moved up to top tier)
King D3 (Chain Grabs, Chain Grabs, Chain Grabs)
Marth (Excellent all around / could see a lot more from him in the future)
Falco (SHDL, Chain Grabs puts this bird on top of the space animals)
Wario (An unpredictable beast who does consistently well in tournies)
Toon Link (Quick and strong aerials, very good smashes, and one of the best projectile games)

Upper Tier
R.O.B. (Fantastic edge guarding, great projectiles, best recovery in the game)
Pit (Quick character with a sick projectile / Can be played both offensively and defensively very well)
Lucario (The best combo potentials out of everyone)
Pikachu (Fast, good aerials, good projectile, and QAC!)
DK (Very good tourney placings / and just a beast overall)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs, grab combos, desynching, Alternate grabs!!!)

Upper Middle Tier
Kirby (Can gimp very easily, racks up damage really fast)
Olimar (His recovery is one of the few things holding him back from high tier)
Wolf (Spammable laser, great aerials and smashes, but again, a bad recovery)
Luigi (Aerials have insane priority and he has a suprisingly good recovery)
Diddy Kong (Can pressure very well, but can have his projectile be used against him)
Fox (Weakest of the space animals but can still hold his own very well)
Zelda (Strong tilts and smashes, annoying projectile)
Mario (Not bad in anything and has some combo potential)

Lower Middle Tier
Lucas (Spammable PK Fire, good tilts, some of the best smashes in the game, Chaingrabs keep him in mid tier)
Ness (Just not as good as his friend from Earthbound)
Ike (Great jabs, immense power, but can become very predictable)
Bowser (Recieved some buffs but is still one of the slowest characters)
Ganondorf (Auto canceled aerials, Tech chasing, and strong as hell)
Yoshi (Suprisingly good grab game, combo machine)

Low Tier
Peach (Nerfed a bit but still does good against most characters)
Link (Good arsenal of projectiles, powerful and fast aerials, but a horrible recovery)
Sheik (Received quite a good amount of nerfs)
Pokemon Trainer (Fatigue really hurts these Pokemon / Forced to be good with all of them to be able to compete)
ZSS (Quick but hard to kill with)
Sonic (Low priority and lacks kill moves)

Bottom Tier
Jigglypuff (This puffball is not what she used to be)
Samus (Weak projectiles, little priority on aerials, and no good killing moves)
Captain Falcon : ( : (

Crap Tier
Bad players

 

[Onxy]

Here is what I think the tier list should look like.

Top Tier
Meta Knight (Hard to argue his placement)
Snake (See above)

High Tier
Mr. Game and Watch (The comeback kid / Has the potential to even be moved up to top tier)
King D3 (Chain Grabs, Chain Grabs, Chain Grabs)
Marth (Excellent all around / could see a lot more from him in the future)
Falco (SHDL, Chain Grabs puts this bird on top of the space animals)
Wario (An unpredictable beast who does consistently well in tournies)
Toon Link (Quick and strong aerials, very good smashes, and one of the best projectile games)

Upper Tier
R.O.B. (Fantastic edge guarding, great projectiles, best recovery in the game)
Pit (Quick character with a sick projectile / Can be played both offensively and defensively very well)
Lucario (The best combo potentials out of everyone)
Pikachu (Fast, good aerials, good projectile, and QAC!)
DK (Very good tourney placings / and just a beast overall)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs, grab combos, desynching, Alternate grabs!!!)

Upper Middle Tier
Kirby (Can gimp very easily, racks up damage really fast)
Olimar (His recovery is one of the few things holding him back from high tier)
Wolf (Spammable laser, great aerials and smashes, but again, a bad recovery)
Luigi (Aerials have insane priority and he has a suprisingly good recovery)
Diddy Kong (Can pressure very well, but can have his projectile be used against him)
Fox (Weakest of the space animals but can still hold his own very well)
Zelda (Strong tilts and smashes, annoying projectile)
Mario (Not bad in anything and has some combo potential)

Lower Middle Tier
Lucas (Spammable PK Fire, good tilts, some of the best smashes in the game, Chaingrabs keep him in mid tier)
Ness (Just not as good as his friend from Earthbound)
Ike (Great jabs, immense power, but can become very predictable)
Bowser (Recieved some buffs but is still one of the slowest characters)
Ganondorf (Auto canceled aerials, Tech chasing, and strong as hell)
Yoshi (Suprisingly good grab game, combo machine)

Low Tier
Peach (Nerfed a bit but still does good against most characters)
Link (Good arsenal of projectiles, powerful and fast aerials, but a horrible recovery)
Sheik (Received quite a good amount of nerfs)
Pokemon Trainer (Fatigue really hurts these Pokemon / Forced to be good with all of them to be able to compete)
ZSS (Quick but hard to kill with)
Sonic (Low priority and lacks kill moves)

Bottom Tier
Jigglypuff (This puffball is not what she used to be)
Samus (Weak projectiles, little priority on aerials, and no good killing moves)
Captain Falcon : ( : (

Crap Tier
Bad players

That's the reason he is so low? Fatigue is one reason - it's not even that bad to deal with anyway - but learning 3 characters isn't a good reason.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Here is what I think the tier list should look like.

List

I find Yoshi to be a little too high as he's really been struggling. ROB has good matchups against Wario, Marth and Snake, warranting him a bump up. I also feel Snake's ability to control the stage and his use of the slide puts him above Metaknight.

 

[Kaizo]

dangr, watch some tourney vids with pro olimar players. its pretty much guaranteed olimar wont recover at least once in a 3 stock match, and sometimes even 2-3 stocks are lost simply by being gimped.

Those Olimars suck, trust me. Play a really good Olimar, like I have....I main MK, so gimping people is, like, my profession, and I play this kid's Marth and gimp him religiously, but the same kid goes to Olimar (he mains Olimar) and it's dead even, and I do gimp him, but it's hell hard, much harder than you think.

About Zelda, the whole deal with her is that Din's fire camping was ridiculously strong, but people have learned about this little thing called air dodging (trademark) which allows you to dodge it with ease. Although good Zelda players can land Din's fire here and there, maybe even for a kill, it's very difficult when considering another good player will know the best way to airdodge it, and that the window for landing Din's fire is very limited, especially at longer ranges.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL!!! All you do is make Olimar use his second jump then hog the ledge.

Then he is done.

Also MK runs through Olimar so I don't even know wtf you are talking about. It's almost as bad as Olimar vs Wolf. That match is ****in horrendous for Olimar.

 

[Kaizo]

LOL!!! All you do is make Olimar use his second jump then hog the ledge.

Then he is done.

Also MK runs through Olimar so I don't even know wtf you are talking about. It's almost as bad as Olimar vs Wolf. That match is ****in horrendous for Olimar.

It sounds so easy, right? Well, there's this little thing called "don't get hit", which is difficult when you're trying to edgeguard someone. kthnx.

EDIT: Olimar isn't going to use his second jump off the ledge unless he needs to, he'll upB to grab, and if someone edgehogs, he'll jump and fair them. Try playing someone that's *not* a level 9 CPU =/

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok. Just stop.

People DO get hit.

And it's pretty easy to hit Olimar off the stage with MK's attacks since all your attacks cut right through his. Literally.

No, MK vs Olimar is not even and if you have a harder time gimping him then any other character save Ivysaur then something is very very wrong.

Come on now. Are you serious?

You really thought that was a valid point? "Don't get hit"?

All MK has to do is chase Olimar with Dairs when he is off the stage. Olimar can only airdodge. Predict this or wait for it and then he is done. Then hog the ledge. Even if Olimars up b knocks MK far down he has plenty of jumps to make it back and Olimar will just fall to his doom.

lol. Plus Olimar has the shortest tether recovery out of all the tether characters even when he has 6 pikmen. His recovery isn't good and he is one of the most gimpable characters in the game. Fact.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

While on the ground it may be a somewhat even matchup, once MK takes Olimar to the air/off the stage, sorry I'm gonna have to go with EL here, it's a retardedly bad matchup for Olimar.

 

[St. Viers]

Wow, like 20 thousand pages since I last posted:

@Ch0zen: Glad to see I have some respect here. I try.

The problems I have are were w/ DK and olimar: the rest is just personal opinion over placing.

We talked about DK, but alas no DK main stepped in w/ their opinion of where he should be in the tier list.

Re: Olimar, I posted a bit back, but I can sum that argument up again. Pretty much, you have him in the WTF tier. I realize that his recovery isn't that great, but it's better than people think. Micromanaging pikmin is not hard, nor is it time consuming. Especially if one DI's up, one can simply arrange his pikmin until purple is in the front.

Also, if he recovers above the stage, he has his pikmin call, that gives him SAF at the start up, making it hard to punish him for recovering high. Also, as people have pointed out, he can simply f-air/u-air people on the ledge, he'll be able to grab it before they regrab it.

So yeah, his recovery is the pits, but people *have* to stop assuming that olimar is automatically dead if off the stage--it's only true if you are talking about moves with sheik's f-air (melee) like trajectory--wolfs throws, G&Ws d-smash, snake's throws, MK's d-air...because they he's forced to recover from below the stage, which IS a dead olimar.

Now if you see what I did there, I pointed out why he shouldn't be top tier (like some ollie fans think)--as the top 3 have strong, easy ways to get him below the stage. Falco has f-throw to d-air (though Ollie *may* be able to recover faster than falco can grab the edge, but I'm not sure), and other toons have their own tricks...

However, you *can't* deny that olimar has one of the best ground->ground/ground anti air games. His pikmin throw exerts pressure, plus, pikmin throw->grab is insane for racking up damage. His throws can lead to small combos, and *definately* lead to chasing/pressure, which is much harder to reverse (as of now) in brawl than in melee (which is why MK and snake are so good, as they can apply pressure better than most others, in all situations).

You can't viably approach olimar from above as SH up-air->up-smash wrecks anything you can do, except for dropping bombs...and you need a disjointed hitbox to approach him from the front, as his pikmin are disjointed as well.

re: killing, throws with his blue pikmin kill early, as does his u-smash, f-smash, and as he has one of the better spikes in the game, he can gimp people as well. His d-smash is great for clearing space, though lacks early killing power.

Earlier, I would have said that olimar was in the 2nd tier (A, very high, etc), but I'm sort of changing my mind. The person Kaizo mentions IS a beast w/ olimar, but I beat him over 1/2 the time I play him with G&W, and I beat him w/ bowser as well (though not so much anymore, as it's hard for bowser quickly grab the ledge)--and I don't own brawl...

I think he's still an incredibly good toon, and has the potential to be insane, but until we get some pros showing that potential, I'm saying bottom of TierII, top of TierIII.

PS, he can grab people who are hanging on the ledge...wtfhax?

 

[fkacyan]

Olimar is easy to gimp, but most characters don't have reliable ways of getting him that far from the edge. Meta Knight does, and maybe a few others.

He's either bottom of Very High or top of High, in my opinion.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well, here's what my Tier list would look like if I took what I think combined with current research the SFR's done so far.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco

Very High Tier:
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Pikachu
Wolf
Zelda
Toon Link

High Tier:
Olimar
Pit
Wario
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Lucario

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Lucas
Fox
ZSS

Luigi
Mario
Bowser
Ness

Low tier :
Sonic
Ike
Sheik
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Link
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

 

[St. Viers]

Olimar is easy to gimp, but most characters don't have reliable ways of getting him that far from the edge. Meta Knight does, and maybe a few others.

He's either bottom of Very High or top of High, in my opinion.

hey, did you know that if you read my post, that's exactly what I said...?

creepy XP it's like you're my tl:dr version XD

 

[fkacyan]

hey, did you know that if you read my post, that's exactly what I said...?

creepy XP it's like you're my tl:dr version XD

I kinda skimmed your post, but hey, I guess I am the tl;dr version of yours. Hehe.

xD

 

[Browny]

Well, here's what my Tier list would look like if I took what I think combined with current research the SFR's done so far.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch end top tier here, no need for 5
Marth
Falco

Very High Tier:
R.O.B.
Wolf
Pikachu
Zelda um, what? tourney results dont lie. her recovery is too easy to punish. i honestly cant see her above mid tier
King Dedede
Toon Link

High Tier:
Olimar
Pit
Lucario
Wario hes good, definitely a few places higher
Diddy Kong refer to zelda
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers

Mid Tier:
ZSS what has ZSS done to be this high?
Kirby
Lucas
Fox ok fox isnt THAT bad, his upsmash is still incredibly powerful, much more easier time killing than falco or wolf
Luigi
Mario
Bowser
Ike his match ups are just horrible vs faster characters, which also happen to be the majority of the cast, i cant see him any higher than low

Low tier :
Sheik
Ness at least a tier higher. bthrow is still ****, extremely easy to get KO's with his strange dash grab
Sonic insert obligitory sonics placement comment here
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Link
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

IMO in bold

 

[Kiwikomix]

NSS Tier List

Switch Zamus and Kirby, Lucas and Fox, Ike and Sonic, bump up Yoshi one or two spaces, and drop Lucario down to mid. Great list, it's just the little things at this point.

@ Viers: Talking about move trajectories... Kirby's second aerial hammer hit.

@ Anyone who knows: How would a character approach Olimar? Once that's figured out, Oli's placement may be easier to tell.

 

[Tien2500]

Well, here's what my Tier list would look like if I took what I think combined with current research the SFR's done so far.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco

Thats fine. Although I might make a distinction in tiers between MK/Snake and the rest of them. Also I might bump ROB up to this tier.

Very High Tier:
R.O.B.
Wolf
Pikachu
Zelda
King Dedede
Toon Link

Wolf seems out of place here. Unless I missed some brilliant points about wolf I'm not sure why he'd be here. His laser and Fsmash are god but not good enough to warrant such a high placement. His aerials are good but again not good enough to warrant this. His recovery is gimpable and he has problems KOing if his Fsmash has been diminished which prevents such high placement.

High Tier:
Olimar
Pit
Lucario
Wario
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers

Olimar should be lower. I won't get into it cause its been discussed. He has a great ground game but his recovery problems should put him slightly lower. Not low or bottom tier but a little lower. Also why is Lucario so high up there?

Mid Tier:
ZSS
Kirby
Lucas
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Bowser
Ike

I think Fox deserves higher. Bowser and Ike maybe lower. Their position relative to the rest of the cast is OK but I'd put them at the top of low tier as opposed to bottom of mid. Just a personal choice though I guess.

Low tier :
Sheik
Ness
Sonic
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Link
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Do things in quote not count towards 10char?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Whoops misread the wrong tab XD

 

[TehBo49]

Tier list

Switch Kirby & the ICs, move Luigi & Sheik up, & move Wolf down & I can live with that list.

 

[Adapt]

NSS:

ZSS should be moved behind fox in mid, leave the rest of mid
Zelda to top of High
Sonic to bottom of mid
DDD should move up, he is kicking some serious *** right now

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

is there an official thread for tournament victory information? last time i heard DK had the 6th most tournament wins (and obviously snake had the most).

 

[fkacyan]

Ankoku's character rankings thread. Current list transposed:

S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede, Marth, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, ROB
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Pikachu, Pit, Falco
C: Lucario, Fox, Olimar, Ike, Kirby, Toon Link, Lucas, Peach, Ice Climbers, Zelda, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: Luigi, Sheik, Diddy Kong, Ness, Mario, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf
E: Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer, Link, Samus, Yoshi

This fails to take into account the number of people playing each character. This is, however, the most accurate 'tier list' right now. Results are all that matter.

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

Considering how every time something new is discovered, this changes, I think I'll wait until we know something new.

 

[Baconater]

I know I'm probably repeating alot of people here but i don't really have the time to read through 563 pages. These are just my thoughts on olimar, it looks like people have really different opinions on him.

1. His recovery reminds me of falco or captain falcon in melee. Now I know that at first this sounds absolutely crazy, but hear me out. I know he has a tether recovery but the quality of his recovery reminds me of falco's and his up b reminds me of captain falcon. I won't bother going into why because the only thing that's important is that these characters had short and easily gimped recoveries respectively. I don't think anyone is going to argue that falco or falcon were bad in melee so I'm a little surprised at people wanting to put Olimar so low based solely on the fact that he has a bad recovery.

2. He's eccentric. I hate to keep making melee references, but I know it much better than I do brawl. Olimar is a weird character, it'll probably take some more time to figure out what he's really got (IC's in melee). He's pretty solid at racking up damage while not taking much and it's not like he has zero finishers.

IMO I just think he shouldn't be placed as low as many people do place him. I'm not saying he's fantastic, but I wouldn't put him too far under mid.

 

[SaxDude93]

At NSS.

What have you done with the real NSS. The real one wouldn't place Ike in mid tier. No, you have to be fake.

Also, is the Lucas/Ness gap that big?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Ankoku's character rankings thread. Current list transposed:



This fails to take into account the number of people playing each character. This is, however, the most accurate 'tier list' right now. Results are all that matter.

Read what Alpha Zealot said in the revised OP


First, the tier list is primarily based on tournament results. Within these results, the specific character versus character match ups should also be analyzed.

While Tourney results are for the most part the main factor, matchups also play a big role.

Ankoku's is what you get if you only factor Tournament results.

And djbrowny, don't you slightly contradict yourself if you say Zelda/Diddy should be moved down because of Tournament results, but also say Ike should be moved down when his results are actually better than both of them? There's a flaw in your reasoning, you seem to be putting too much on tournament results, when matchups are still key.


Not to mention, you've pretty much invoked the wrath of Hedgedawg, lawl

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

At NSS.

What have you done with the real NSS. The real one wouldn't place Ike in mid tier. No, you have to be fake.

Also, is the Lucas/Ness gap that big?

....OH SNAP YA GOT ME!!


*Punching and screaming is heard in the background*

Real NSS: Ah, I finally got that doppleganger that I released so long ago. *******'s been trying to ruin my reputation for years now <_<.

 

[Browny]

lol i guess so. i just figure zelda and diddy are considerably more harder to use than ike, especially when brawl first came out. In early tourneys i honestly doubt people knew how to gimp his recovery, or fully understood the range of his quicker KO moves. his tourney results have dried up massively while zelda and diddys are finally beginning to get somewhere.

and tourney results dont lie, the match up chart does. the entire thing is nothing but opinions, and so many of the match-ups were decided without any reasoning or discussions behind them whatsoever