Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Corigames]

Bizarre? Bizarre is defined by Snake's hit boxes. Bizarre is tripping in the worst moments. Bizarre is grabbing an edge so far away that YOU didn't even expect it.

No, I think Brawl has gotten us pretty accustomed to the Bizarre. I don't think anyone is truly thrown off by the wingdash. Even if they didn't see it coming, it doesn't do much. The wing-renewal, arrow looping, arrow dancing, and glide are all things that are relevant, are practical, and fairly easy to do.

While I can't argue that it doesn't add a variance to his strategy, the change it brings is unnecessary.

 

[Browny]

are there any videos where 'wingdashing' is ever put to good use where no other attack would have worked better? if its anything like arrow looping, its just for show. whats the point in looping 1 arrow over a whole second when you can fire 3-4 in the same time it takes to loop 1 :/

although arrow raining does look pretty awesome lol

 

[Corigames]

At least with arrow looping you can reach under the stage in the "blind spots" that you can't normally hit. I use it there to mess up certain people's recoveries.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Why is DK consistently getting the bottom of the "High" tier category? He's definitely on the higher end of that stick, maybe even the very bottom of "very high tier." Unless of course you consider D3's infinite on him, but he's got great match-ups against a lot of the higher tier characters, snake and MK most notably.

 

[Deleted member]

Corey, its nothing like a wingdash. Its pretty much exactly like a wavedash! U can attack out of it, u can go fowards or backwards, and it will probably be very helpful. Yoshis recovery isnt bad and its not gimpable in brawl unless he is already done with his second jump(he can just airdodge during it and not get it). Obviously u'll hafta wait for some yoshis to start placing in tournaments (ive only been to a few, but im confident ill place decently high at the next one i attend), for u to get proof that yoshi is viable.

 

[Grunt]

64 was almost the definition of how a fighter game should be made. If every character is absolutely broken... it's balanced! They just forgot to break a few of the characters.

exactly what i told my friend.

 

[Kyas]

I don't think they'd put each pokemon in a different tier. Pokemon trainer has to change his pokemon out every 2 minutes or they'll get tired and only be half as effective, so Pokemon Trainer will usually end up playing with each pokemon at least once during a match.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Leprechaun: DK has great upper tier matchups, but falls short on most matchups after those tiers. He doesn't have universally great enough matchups to be very high or top of high. His awful vertical recovery also leaves him susceptible to footstools and other semi-spikes, not to mention that he's a large target and therefore is much easier to hit.

 

[Corigames]

Corey, its nothing like a wingdash. Its pretty much exactly like a wavedash! U can attack out of it, u can go fowards or backwards, and it will probably be very helpful. Yoshis recovery isnt bad and its not gimpable in brawl unless he is already done with his second jump(he can just airdodge during it and not get it). Obviously u'll hafta wait for some yoshis to start placing in tournaments (ive only been to a few, but im confident ill place decently high at the next one i attend), for u to get proof that yoshi is viable.

You know, it wouldn't kill you to put "yo" in front of all of those "u"s. Seriously. I don't read it faster if it is just "u." It's not easier or more fun. You even went as far as to have correct punctuation for the contraction "you will" but kept it "u'll"!! What the **** man?

Anyway... the wingdash can go forwards and back, you can attack out of it, and it pushes opponents back. The problem is that it really isn't a viable tactic despite that. And, until someone gives me a link to this Yoshi BS, I can only assume that it is similar.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

@ Leprechaun: DK has great upper tier matchups, but falls short on most matchups after those tiers. He doesn't have universally great enough matchups to be very high or top of high. His awful vertical recovery also leaves him susceptible to footstools and other semi-spikes, not to mention that he's a large target and therefore is much easier to hit.

His match-ups aren't bad beyond those top tier characters; aren't those characters going to be the most difficult to defeat anyway? His recovery is poor vertically, but is amazing horizontally. It also has SA frames and because it lasts so long it can be hard to edgeguard a DK. It can also rack up to 30% damage. Even if he is a large target, his range is amazing and with proper spacing his size becomes less of a detriment..

 

[Veng]

Weres Zelda placing these days? She got second in my tourney yesterday, behind a Lucas in front of a marth, and me.

EDIT: only scrubs use language and crap like that over a video game.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Range isn't everything... otherwise Ivysaur would be top. I understand how great DK's horizontal recovery is, but now that characters are far more susceptible to gimps, most competent players should be able to stop him from coming back at least once a match. Certainly it's not as much of a problem as, say, Link's terrible horizontal recovery, but it's still something to notice.
The "big target" thing means he's easier to combo and can get shut down more easily by projectile spams. Basic stuff like that adds up.
All in all, a character being a good counterpick isn't going to win him every tournament, especially since he's so easily counterpicked (just choose Dedede). Think about it... a non-DK main uses a different character first round, if they lose they counterpick DK and win, then the other person switches to Dedede and you lose.

 

[Fogo]

Weres Zelda placing these days? She got second in my tourney yesterday, behind a Lucas in front of a marth, and me.

EDIT: only scrubs use language and crap like that over a video game.

she's lookinhg a lot better than melee, expect mid tier

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Range isn't everything... otherwise Ivysaur would be top. I understand how great DK's horizontal recovery is, but now that characters are far more susceptible to gimps, most competent players should be able to stop him from coming back at least once a match. Certainly it's not as much of a problem as, say, Link's terrible horizontal recovery, but it's still something to notice.
The "big target" thing means he's easier to combo and can get shut down more easily by projectile spams. Basic stuff like that adds up.
All in all, a character being a good counterpick isn't going to win him every tournament, especially since he's so easily counterpicked (just choose Dedede). Think about it... a non-DK main uses a different character first round, if they lose they counterpick DK and win, then the other person switches to Dedede and you lose.

DK's F-tilt cancels out a LOT of projectiles, as well as his B-air. Also, I want to stress spacing...DK's down B and tilts really help to avoid being comboed (Plus, this is Brawl...wtf is a combo?). Additionally he is very heavy and harder to KO. He also has an amazing edguarding game. Your also seriously underestimating his recovery; he is definetly deserving of a higher placed tier slot. Of course match-ups aren't everything, but when Snake and MK are the most popular/best characters and DK has a much better chance against them than most, that's noteworthy. Also, he absolutely ***** G&W and has very few terrible match-ups (I feel like i'm saying match-up too much...) He is most definitely more deserving than Wolf.

 

[Deleted member]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p8x1ErhiwP4 HEre is the video. SOrry for all the "u's" lol. Anyways, we arent sure it is going to make yoshi any better, as im pretty sure almost nobody can do it consistantly (tech skill in brawl lolz), but it looks like it could help him and have enormous potential.

 

[Fogo]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p8x1ErhiwP4 HEre is the video. SOrry for all the "u's" lol. Anyways, we arent sure it is going to make yoshi any better, as im pretty sure almost nobody can do it consistantly (tech skill in brawl lolz), but it looks like it could help him and have enormous potential.

My friend Bwett has been doing that a lot lately and he's gotten a lot better

 

[Corigames]

I still don't see that helping that much... but it is cool at least.

 

[Nestec]

Top Tier: Metaknight, Snake

High Tier: Dedede, Falco, G&W, ROB, Marth, Pikachu, Zelda, Wario, DK

Upper Middle Tier: Diddy Kong, Luigi, Olimar, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Fox, Pit, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, ZSS

Lower Middle Tier: Mario, Sheik, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Ness,

Low Tier: Link, Samus, Bowser, Sonic, Yoshi, PT

Bottom Tier: Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

EDIT: ( I still haven't figured out how to use that multiple-quoting thingy...XD )

whoa, PT should be high of low tier ATLEAST. well G&W should be moved up a tiny bit i think, Wario a tiny bit down as well as Zelda
And People if you are counting bad recoveries, look at zamus and olimar they are high as a Mountain and yet you rate PT low?, squirtle doesn't have that bad of a recovery, you can aim it like Roy's Up B from Melee, Ivysaur........, Charizard: well he does have glide, which is useless against vertical hits, but he covers that up by his 2 mid-air jumps, and with his aim-able Up-B. also lets look at Yoshi's Recovery, gimped by Foot stool, bowser? his recovery is good as charizard's glide. What about link? tsk tsk tsk

Eh? I said that the ordering within tiers was random...o.O

I put PT in Low Tier, but not specifically the bottom of it...Same goes for G&W.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Actually, Ivysaur is a girl. In the Japanese version of Pokemon, Ash's Bulbasaur sounds more masculine than May's Bulbasaur, who has the same voice as the Ivysaur in Brawl. >_>;

Obviously if a char sounds slightly more feminine it's female right. Excuse me, I'm going to go tell my brother he's female due to the fact that his voice is more feminine then mine...[/sarcasm] (yay for counter-examples!)


The point being, we have no clue what the variances of bulbasaur's voice is as far as gender. They were almost definately both male due to the vast majority of bulbasaurs being male.

And even if we could establish that the bulbasaur was female, that would bear no relevance to an ivysaur that happened to have the same voice actor since we don't know the variances in Ivysaur's voice.

Hell, we don't even know that there's any gender variance in Ivysaur's voice, it could even be that females have more "masculine" voices. No evidence whatsoever for Ivysaur's gender.

64 was almost the definition of how a fighter game should be made. If every character is absolutely broken... it's balanced! They just forgot to break a few of the characters.

Pretty much, but again, they forgot to break a few chars. Wasn't deep enough for my tastes though.

Well, it's just that, him being able to WD in Brawl isn't really going to help him much. Plus, even though I haven't seen the video, I doubt it that effective to use in a fight. The Pit guys have dredged themselves in with the idea that Wingdashing is somehow useful. The only thing it is good for is to show off. It is faster safer to just roll than to wingdash, and I doubt Draconic reverse BS is going to do a 180 on Yoshi.

I wouldn't suggest that you argue about it until you see the evidence. Really, it's a very neat tech and looks like it will improve Yoshi dramatically. Especially because it's so versatile.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

no he doesnt. a lot of characters have jab-locks whic work on everyone, and theyre near impossible to pull off and require the opponent to simply not move at all once knocked into free fall, which never happens. Testing on lvl 1 CPU is never a good indication. its even more situational than laser locking, since at least you can do that from any range. the jab lock results in like, <15% damage while his ftilt does like ,12? so what do you think will happen, push the 0.00000000001% chance of geting around 15% free damage or a guaranteed 12.

oh and lol @ your reasoning

dedede, one of the most popular in the game, has a STANDING infitnite on DK, all he has to do is land 3 grabs for 3 0-deaths, but that doesnt affect DK's position?

dedede is one of the best characters in the game, not one of the most popular, big difference (there's usually 2-3 dededes per tournament, about 12 metaknights).

and i'm talking about grab-jab-jab when he breaks out grab again, its a walking infinite that eggz found and i've tested on my friends, who tried di'ing it and basically everything you could think of, nice try on the denial though. and no, a grab is not more situational than a laser lock, in fact, metaknight grabbing someone is fairly common. and when i said jab infinite, i also pointed out its like the one marth has on ness, maybe you should've read the full post. and it does more than 15%, it can do quite a lot if you're caught far from an edge

Why is DK consistently getting the bottom of the "High" tier category? He's definitely on the higher end of that stick, maybe even the very bottom of "very high tier." Unless of course you consider D3's infinite on him, but he's got great match-ups against a lot of the higher tier characters, snake and MK most notably.

because none of them have played a dk, thats why they all place him lower than where he should be

Range isn't everything... otherwise Ivysaur would be top. I understand how great DK's horizontal recovery is, but now that characters are far more susceptible to gimps, most competent players should be able to stop him from coming back at least once a match. Certainly it's not as much of a problem as, say, Link's terrible horizontal recovery, but it's still something to notice.
The "big target" thing means he's easier to combo and can get shut down more easily by projectile spams. Basic stuff like that adds up.
All in all, a character being a good counterpick isn't going to win him every tournament, especially since he's so easily counterpicked (just choose Dedede). Think about it... a non-DK main uses a different character first round, if they lose they counterpick DK and win, then the other person switches to Dedede and you lose.

dk is fairly hard to gimp, because his upb has a lot of priority and hitboxes everywhere, and no, dk has more range than ivysaur. also, dk's ftilt will beat out almost every projectile (other than spacie lasers and pk fire) and aside from that sh bair will go over/through most projectiles, but not nearly as much as ftilt

also, dk has a lot of moves that can't be shieldgrabbed, so as long as he isn't on fd, dedede is bearable

My friend Bwett has been doing that a lot lately and he's gotten a lot better

bwett kicks ***, he's one of the most compelling arguments for yoshi in the lower end of mid tier

EDIT: @nestec, put wario higher, and move zelda and pikachu into mid tier

 

[Browny]

His match-ups aren't bad beyond those top tier characters; aren't those characters going to be the most difficult to defeat anyway? His recovery is poor vertically, but is amazing horizontally. It also has SA frames and because it lasts so long it can be hard to edgeguard a DK. It can also rack up to 30% damage. Even if he is a large target, his range is amazing and with proper spacing his size becomes less of a detriment..

are you sure about SA frames? i know for one Lucarios b-air knocks DK out of his upb, id be willing to bet G&W turtle/box will do it to. but maybe thats becuase those attacks linger for a while, time enough for DK to pass through the attack so that it hits his head.

 

[Corigames]

I wouldn't suggest that you argue about it until you see the evidence. Really, it's a very neat tech and looks like it will improve Yoshi dramatically. Especially because it's so versatile.

I saw the video, and it was pretty cool. I'm guessing it's some form of DJC? Anyway, while this seems like it could be implemented in an actual match, I'm not sure how it will affect him though. I believe that his other draw backs will keep him from doing that much better, but he may rise out of the bottom tier.

 

[SaxDude93]

It may because I'm watched that vid 7:30 in the morning, but the Dragonic Reversal looked like a series of pivots, and not a wavedash. Or did I miss something?

 

[Corigames]

It looks similar in nature, but I'm just not sure if the practical use of the move will ultimately shift Yoshi in favor of anything.

 

[Frown]

After owning the japanese game for almost a month and extensive character testing me a few of my friends have decided on what we think should be very similar to what the real tier list will be.

Top Tier :

Ike
Diddy
Toon Link
P.Trainer
Sonic

High Tier :

Kirby
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Pit
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus

Middle Tier

Samus
Fox
Luigi
Metaknight
Falco
Lucario
Bowser
Robot
Captain Falcon
Lucas
Zelda

Low Tier :

Link
Mario
Pikachu
Snake
Ness
Jigglypuff

Bottom Tier:

Donkey Kong
Game and Watch
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
DeDeDe
Pikmin and Olimar

my tier list (ive never played, but im pretty sure its accurate

in no specific order

god tier
sonic
snake

top tier

marth
fox
metaknight
diddy
pit

high tier

falco
wolf
dedede
ike
toon link
zelda
mario
luigi
peach

mid tier

zss
bowser
kirby
game and watch
rob (due to lack of usage)
samus
sheik
PT
falcon
pikachu

low tier

wario
lucas
ness
olimar
gannondorf
DK
jigglypuff
link
lucario

bottom tier

yoshi
ice climbers

its way too early to think of anything as i doubt no one has played every character except for those who have it, and i doubt theyv played everyone still. however, from my impressions of watching the tons of vids i do and from the play time iv had with it, im just gonna split characters into 3 groups awesome, good, not good lol:

Awesome:
Sonic
Diddy
Marth
Toon Link
Luigi
Mario

Good:
Pokemon Trainer
ROB
Bowser
Peach
Link
Zelda
Meta Knight
Pit
Falcon
Dedede

Not Good:
Snake
Ike
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Undecided:
Everyone I didn't name

What I think (list not in order):

Top
Pit
Marth
Falco

High
Fox
Wolf
ROB
Toon Link
Olimer
Peach
Diddy
Pikachu

Mid
Dedede
Ike
Mario
Luigi
Sonic
Kirby
Metaknight
Zelda
Lucas
PT

Low
Ness
Samus
Lucario
Falcon
Bowser
Link
Sheik
Wario
ZSS

Bottom
Yoshi
Jiggly
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
DK
Snake

LOL @ early tier lists

 

[Corigames]

You really had to do that? Couldn't you have just linked us to the posts those were made in?

Srsly >_>

 

[RazeveX]

meh. Lol at the last one...Snake at the VERY BOTTOM!?!?! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

and sonic was in "god tier" for most of them

 

[Onomanic]

Only in Melee, only in Melee. New game, new moves, new physics, new tier list, new placements. I wonder where my joke list goes on the tier list of joke tier lists?

ok than. i just like shiek more lol. but zelda is scary to fight against 'l|O_o Her ariels are extremely powerful (if used correctly) and playing as a larger character (like R.O.B or Bowser) is even worse.

 

[Onxy]

Sonic would be God tier, if this were Melee.

 

[Blistering Speed]

It doesn't matter how many useful ATs Yoshi gets, unless they improve his horrendous matchups or tourney outings, it will make no difference on his tier placement

 

[BBQ°]

Ordered by Brawl Character Match-Up Chart

Uber:
Mr. Game & Watch

Top:
Snake, Metaknight, Marth, Falco

High:
Toon Link, Pit, R.O.B., Zelda, Olimar, Wolf, Pikachu, Ice Climbers

Middle:
Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, Wario, Diddy Kong, Fox, Lucas, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Sheik

Low:
Ivysaur, Ike, Link, Ness, Squirtle, Luigi, Sonic, Charizard

Bottom:
Samus, Peach, Mario, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Yoshi

Unusable:
Captain Falcon, Ganondorf


This in no way represents my opinion on the tiers. I just created a simple formula using the Brawl Character Match-Up Chart and placed in order who had better match-ups. Mr. Game & Watch is uber because by the ordering system I used, he has +10 better match ups than Snake. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are labeled unusable because they have -10 worse match ups than Yoshi.

I seperate the characters into the different tier slots by difference in numbers. For example, since Game and Watch is +40 and Snake is +30 and Metaknight is +29, I seperated them into different tier slots to show the level of difference. Falco is +27 and the next tier slot has Toon Link at the top and he is +23. So for each tier spot it drops a few significant numbers. If you're wondering, Ganondorf is -39 and Captain Falcon is -38. The next worse is Yoshi, and he is only -27. If you haven't noticed, Mr. Game & Watch has nearly +80 better match-ups than Ganondorf

This definetely doesn't display the real tier list, this is just a character match-up tier list. If all tier lists were based off solely match-ups, Falco in Melee would be the best character, but this is not so because of his recovery.

 

[Browny]

as much as i hate that matchup chart sometimes, I agree with G&W being the flat-out best. Snake is really good, but he is so succeptible to spikes/chaingrabs while G&W is practically immune to both, and his dsmash is too good.

 

[Pieisthebest]

Yea, T0mmy's tier list >_>
What do you guys think?

VERSION 2.3
1st Tier
^ Snake
v Meta Knight

^ Pikachu (+)
v Toon Link (-)
^ R.O.B.
^ Falco (-)
^ Fox

^ Mr. Game & Watch
* Dedede (+/-)
v Marth (-)
^ Wolf
^ Zelda (+/-)

2nd Tier
v Pit
^ Pikmin & Olimar (+/-)
v Zero Suit Samus
* Kirby
v Ike

* Diddy Kong (+/-)
^ Wario (+)
^ Mario
v Luigi
^ Peach (+/-)

^ Lucario (+)
^ Donkey Kong (+)
^ Sheik (-/+)
^ Ice Climbers (++)
v Captain Falcon (+/-)

3rd Tier
v Ness (-)
v Lucas (-)
^ Bowser
^ Jigglypuff (+)
v Yoshi (+)

* Pokemon Trainer (+/-)
* Ganondorf
^ Samus (-)
v Link
* Sonic (+)

 

[Germanydabassist]

Only problem is, G&W can't put on pressure from a distance. His frying pan's projectiles are way too slow and uncontrollable to do anything out of the pan's range, and that's his only ranged move.

 

[Frown]

as much as i hate that matchup chart sometimes, I agree with G&W being the flat-out best. Snake is really good, but he is so succeptible to spikes/chaingrabs while G&W is practically immune to both, and his dsmash is too good.

How witty.

 

[St. Viers]

I agree, not a 180, but it should help a bit-- it functions just as a WD--you slide, and are able to do whatever you want while doing so. If nothing else, it's gonna make him able to outspace and punish better, as it's faster than walking forward, and no initial dash problem of running.

It's a "we'll see" thing I guess.

 

[Pieisthebest]

How witty.

I lawld
;>_>

 

[Browny]

How witty.

lol, the pun wasnt intended

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I'll post my tier list, I know I'm a n00b so don't flame me(help me)

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco(maybe swapped with marth)
Marth
R.O.B(possibly moved up/down)

High Tier:
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wolf(might move down)
King Dedede
Wario
Ice Climbers(might go down)
Zelda
Kirby

Mid Tier:

Lucario
DK
Luigi
Olimar
Fox
Zamus
Diddy Kong
Pit
Lucas
Bowser

Low Tier:

Ness
Mario
lke
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Peach
Shiek
Yoshi
Link

Bottom Tier:

Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

are you sure about SA frames? i know for one Lucarios b-air knocks DK out of his upb, id be willing to bet G&W turtle/box will do it to. but maybe thats becuase those attacks linger for a while, time enough for DK to pass through the attack so that it hits his head.

DK's up-B has SA frames in the first few spins of the attack. DK is very hard to gimp and his recovery is severely underrated (I don't know how many people know this, but he can go under smashville and recover to the other side)

Video proof of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0gtLwT5b6Y

DK very much deserves to be higher tier. He is undoubtedly a better character than Wolf or Wario, and has good tournament results.

Take away d3's infinite and DK has the advantage over him. SH bair is also one of the best approaches in the game and his F-tilt is almost too good (only better f-tilt that comes to mind is snakes)