Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[BBQ°]

Only problem is, G&W can't put on pressure from a distance. His frying pan's projectiles are way too slow and uncontrollable to do anything out of the pan's range, and that's his only ranged move.

He doesn't need pressure from a distance. He forces other campy players to approach by using his bucket, unless it's toon link or samus.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Here's my (serious, I know I made a very strange one before) take on what the Tier-list should look like in the current metagame. I know there are going to be more than a few characters in this list that are probably deserving of a higher/lower slot, but this is the best I can come up with.

Top tier:
Snake
G&W

High Tier:
Metaknight
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Donkey Kong
Wario
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Luigi

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Wolf
Zelda
Kirby
Olimar
Lucario
Ness
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Pit
Lucas
Peach
Fox
Sonic
Mario
ZSS
Bowser
Ganondorf

Low Tier
Ike
Samus
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

 

[ShadowLink84]

DK's up-B has SA frames in the first few spins of the attack. DK is very hard to gimp and his recovery is severely underrated (I don't know how many people know this, but he can go under smashville and recover to the other side)

Proof of SA frames please?
Everyone knows that DK has great horizontal movement.
Even so his recovery while underrated it is one of the more vulnerable recoveries in the game. Not only because of the predictable trajectory, but also because similar to Zelda DK has to either land ont he stage/ledge or risk leaving himself exposed to attack.
he's not gimpable but while recovering he is vulnerable.

DK very much deserves to be higher tier. He is undoubtedly a better character than Wolf or Wario, and has good tournament results.

This may be due to the fact that DK is an easier character to pick up than Wolf and Wario (at least more so than wario) and I would like to argue that part oabout him being better than wario and Wolf.
mainly since Wolf is a very capable cahracter at baiting similar to Snake's gameplay and his shine also rpesents a method of removing pressure when an opponent is being aggressive due to the invincibility frames.
The blaster is also good for baiting and his grabs are pretty good too.

Wario I have little experience but his aerial ability is arguably one of the best out there due to his speed and his bike is an effective method of approach.
DK does deserve to be in higher tier but not necessarily because he's better than the two characters.

G&W beats snake in terms of matchups and his overall considered a better character but as you can see he probably won't be the very top of top tier. (not that it would matter much)

Take away d3's infinite and DK has the advantage over him.

That doesn't take away his Cg though and again once DDD can get Donkey Kong off the edge it can be an issue. That and DDD does have better tilts overall than DK since they are disjointed and don't extend his hurtbox like Donkey Kong's do.

SH bair is also one of the best approaches in the game and his F-tilt is almost too good (only better f-tilt that comes to mind is snakes)

Its overrated. Its fast yes but unlike snake, Ike, G&W it does extend his hurtbox so its more easily taken advantage of than Snake's.

 

[Grunt]

how can anyone not put snake and MK in the top tier?
they have like, twice as many tourney wins as anyone else.

 

[Kiwikomix]

DK's up-B has SA frames in the first few spins of the attack. DK is very hard to gimp and his recovery is severely underrated (I don't know how many people know this, but he can go under smashville and recover to the other side)

Well that's not as useful then. DK's heavy enough that he can't just float back to the stage on his second jump alone, and chances are he won't be next to the edge when he starts spinning. The SA is almost irrelevant unless someone doesn't know about it and tries to spike you just at the beginning. Also, it wouldn't matter for those multi-hit spikes like Kirby's...

DK very much deserves to be higher tier. He is undoubtedly a better character than Wolf or Wario, and has good tournament results.
Take away d3's infinite and DK has the advantage over him.

Wolf has not been that highly rated for a while. I really hesitate to put him above Wario when Wario has been doing better than him in tournaments. And you can't just "take away the infinite", it's part of the matchup whether you like it or not. I might as well say, "take away Snake's grenades and tilts and Squirtle has the advantage over him."

 

[Randofu]

how can anyone not put snake and MK in the top tier?
they have like, twice as many tourney wins as anyone else.

I don't really have a grasp on the tourney scene or anything, but I also have to wonder how many times more tourney losses they have.

Surely that should be just as relevant as wins?

Basically, unless you normalize for how popular a character is, you're not fairly evaluating which characters are best.

 

[BBQ°]

Proof of SA frames please?

I saved a replay of myself Up-B-ing the instant another Donkey Kong did his super punch on me and I didn't get knockback. The SA frames only exist during the beginning of his Up-B. I don't know if it works while he is using Up-B as a recovery though. I won't be posting it on youtube because I don't have a capture device.

Everyone knows that DK has great horizontal movement.
Even so his recovery while underrated it is one of the more vulnerable recoveries in the game. Not only because of the predictable trajectory, but also because similar to Zelda DK has to either land ont he stage/ledge or risk leaving himself exposed to attack.
he's not gimpable but while recovering he is vulnerable.

Half the time you can just float back to the stage, so his recovery isn't much of the problem. Besides, if your opponent approaches you off the stage, DK has 3 meteor smashes that he can use. Do either that or sweet spot the edge. What I like to do is Up-B so it looks like I'm going to land on the stage, and then DI back to sweet spot the edge.

DDD does have better tilts overall than DK since they are disjointed and don't extend his hurtbox like Donkey Kong's do.

True, but all of DK's tilts are a lot faster, and when it comes down to a slow character you really have to depend on fast tilts. DK's f-tilt and d-tilt smack away a lot of projectiles too.

Its overrated. Its fast yes but unlike snake, Ike, G&W it does extend his hurtbox so its more easily taken advantage of than Snake's.

Yeah, but it has no landing lag, and it comes out really fast so you can do 2 in a row without getting punished. If you space yourself correctly, and DI once the hitbox is finished, it's extremely hard to get punished (shield grab). It also has great priority so chances are he won't get hit while he's doing his bair.

 

[Grunt]

I don't really have a grasp on the tourney scene or anything, but I also have to wonder how many times more tourney losses they have.

Surely that should be just as relevant as wins?

Basically, unless you normalize for how popular a character is, you're not fairly evaluating which characters are best.

If a 5 year old kid goes to a tourney with Snake, and gets dead last, that shouldn't effect his placement.

everyone starts at 0 and can only go up from there. other wise, characters that are never used would be higher up than more popular characters just because they lose points for not winning.

 

[Randofu]

If a 5 year old kid goes to a tourney with Snake, and gets dead last, that shouldn't effect his placement.

But if a 5 year old kid goes with Snake and wins, it should? I'm not exactly sure what your argument is here. Should we exclude 5 year olds from constructing the tier list, or should we exclude people who aren't seriously trying to win?

If you actually want to remove such outliers, only consider the top X people in a given tourney, where X is less than the number of total players (X = 8?). Only serious competitors should make it that far in the tournament. After that, just take the win/loss ratio for each character, weighted based on how far in the tournament it is (final should count more than semi-final, etc.). Technically this is equivalent to having a weight of 0 for all matches except the quarter-finals and above, but I think you get my point.

everyone starts at 0 and can only go up from there. other wise, characters that are never used would be higher up than more popular characters just because they lose points for not winning.

Let me respond to this with a riddle. Which is more fair: starting each character at 0 and increasing their score when they win, or starting each character at 1000 and decreasing their score when they lose?

I would hope that it's obvious that neither method is a fair way of measuring character strengths. Both methods are heavily biased based on popularity.

If everyone feels that the tier list should capture popularity, then there's nothing wrong with the current system.

However, I think that biasing in favor of popularity is a bad idea for a tier list, since it introduces a positive feedback loop into the system. Character X does well initially, so he goes to the top of the tier list. Everyone sees that character X is at the top of the tier list, so they decide to main him. The tournaments get saturated with character X, so of course character X earns a lot of points for his wins in the top matches. The cycle repeats, and the tier list stagnates. By the time someone comes along and proves that character Y is superior, too many people are still using character X, and character Y can't take his rightful place as a top tiered character.

 

[Veng]

Hey guys, Just curious, the whole tier list whats it supposed to mean? The higher the character is the better they do in tourneys/easier to get good with/better?

Ive never really thought about it, I always just thought of it as favourite characters to play that "seem" to be better.

I tried:

Top tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Falco
Zelda
GW
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.

Upper-Mid Tier:
Pit
Olimar
Wolf
Lucario
Wario
Pikachu

Lower- Mid:

Peach
Fox
Toon Link
Lucas
Ness
Kirby

Low Tier:

Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
ZSS
Ike
Fox
Mario
Luigi
Bowser

Bottom Tier:

Ganondorf
Samus
Link
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

 

[Randofu]

everyone starts at 0 and can only go up from there. other wise, characters that are never used would be higher up than more popular characters just because they lose points for not winning.

Oh, and one last thing about this: if a character is absolutely NEVER used, then you'd be right. If that's the case, though, you don't have enough data to make an accurate tier list anyway.

Otherwise, the first time that a Ganon user manages to get into the quarter-finals, he then immediately loses and he immediately falls to the bottom of the tiers. If he wins instead... well, maybe he actually doesn't belong at the bottom then. But no, seriously, Ganon is awful, and belongs at the bottom.

 

[DarkKnight077]

I haven't been around for awhile...

When is the official Tier list going to put up?

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Proof of SA frames please?

This statement alone is enough for me to come to the conclusion that you don't know much about DK and his potential. This factors into why so many people place him lower than he deserves; he is severely underused (though that may change because of his better chances against Snake and MK, the two most popular characters) and only the DK mains take the care to understand the character.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DK very much deserves to be higher tier. He is undoubtedly a better character than Wolf or Wario, and has good tournament results.

Take away d3's infinite and DK has the advantage over him. SH bair is also one of the best approaches in the game and his F-tilt is almost too good (only better f-tilt that comes to mind is snakes)

yes on the dedede matchup, and on him being better than wolf, no on him being better than wario, a good wario is up there with snake and metaknight, and to top it off, he has very few bad matchups (ddd, and marth are bad, yoshi is horrible due to his infinite)

Here's my (serious, I know I made a very strange one before) take on what the Tier-list should look like in the current metagame. I know there are going to be more than a few characters in this list that are probably deserving of a higher/lower slot, but this is the best I can come up with.

Top tier:
Snake
G&W

High Tier:
Metaknight <--- him and gdubs, he might move down later, but as of right now he's one of the two best in the game
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Donkey Kong
Wario <--- switch him with rob
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Luigi

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Wolf
Zelda
Kirby
Olimar
Lucario <-- move him down more, metaknight, the most popular character in the game, has a walking grab infinite on him, i've pointed this out several times and you just seem to ignore it, it works just like the ness/lucas one marth can do, only you don't need to dashgrab
Ness
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Pit
Lucas
Peach
Fox
Sonic <--- sonic is not better than maro nor ZSS and you can argue for bowser being better too
Mario
ZSS
Bowser
Ganondorf

Low Tier
Ike
Samus <--- samus is one of the two worst characters in the game, her projectiles aren't that good, and her up close game is terrible
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Proof of SA frames please?
Everyone knows that DK has great horizontal movement.
Even so his recovery while underrated it is one of the more vulnerable recoveries in the game. Not only because of the predictable trajectory, but also because similar to Zelda DK has to either land ont he stage/ledge or risk leaving himself exposed to attack.
he's not gimpable but while recovering he is vulnerable.

unless you know how to recover with him, and then you can land on the ground with no lag

This may be due to the fact that DK is an easier character to pick up than Wolf and Wario (at least more so than wario) and I would like to argue that part oabout him being better than wario and Wolf.
mainly since Wolf is a very capable cahracter at baiting similar to Snake's gameplay and his shine also rpesents a method of removing pressure when an opponent is being aggressive due to the invincibility frames.
The blaster is also good for baiting and his grabs are pretty good too.

admitedly wario is better, but wario is too good, every list placing him under the top 5 is underestimating him, he can kill lower than any other character, with little mindgames involved if the player uses the waft right (don't fully charge it, it has less knockback) his aerial control also gives him a great approach. he's like melee jiggs with more weight, range, and priority

G&W beats snake in terms of matchups and his overall considered a better character but as you can see he probably won't be the very top of top tier. (not that it would matter much)

the matchup chart is not accurate, dedede can infinite wolf, yet its placed at neutral, there are a lot of other matchups that are sooo off it isn't funny

That doesn't take away his Cg though and again once DDD can get Donkey Kong off the edge it can be an issue. That and DDD does have better tilts overall than DK since they are disjointed and don't extend his hurtbox like Donkey Kong's do.

umm, no, dk's tilts come out faster, and his ftilt has the same priority of snakes utilt (and the utilt has the same priority as snakes ftilt when dk is facing away from snake)

btw, dk's bair is one of the better approaches in the game, it has no lag, you can do two in a short hop, and it leads into a bunch of dks other moves

 

[Adapt]

Proof of SA frames please?

Check the super armor thread, DK's up-B is listed as having SA frames, but only the grounded version, no idea about the aerial version


Veng

You have fox on the list twice
Peach and possibly Ness/Lucas are too high
DK, Diddy, and possibly ZSS are too low
You are missing Sonic

That's all I can see right now. Some of the other placing are iffy, but wouldn't move between tiers

 

[Grunt]

But if a 5 year old kid goes with Snake and wins, it should? I'm not exactly sure what your argument is here. Should we exclude 5 year olds from constructing the tier list, or should we exclude people who aren't seriously trying to win?

The point isnt his age. even if he's 30, if lots of people play snake because they think he's good (but they themselves suck) and they all go to a tourney and lose, they drop to near zero/into the negatives. this takes a very good character, and makes him look really bad compared to characters that suck horribly, but have like + points because of lack of play.

If you actually want to remove such outliers, only consider the top X people in a given tourney, where X is less than the number of total players (X = 8?). Only serious competitors should make it that far in the tournament. After that, just take the win/loss ratio for each character, weighted based on how far in the tournament it is (final should count more than semi-final, etc.). Technically this is equivalent to having a weight of 0 for all matches except the quarter-finals and above, but I think you get my point.

Look at ankoku's ranking chart. certain points are given to certain places, so it's not First place=1, not first place= 0

Let me respond to this with a riddle. Which is more fair: starting each character at 0 and increasing their score when they win, or starting each character at 1000 and decreasing their score when they lose?

I would hope that it's obvious that neither method is a fair way of measuring character strengths. Both methods are heavily biased based on popularity.

True, but this is what a tier list is, and there will always be some sort of bias. this is why there are match up charts created as well, to balance actual character skill with tourney representation.

If everyone feels that the tier list should capture popularity, then there's nothing wrong with the current system.

Yup.

However, I think that biasing in favor of popularity is a bad idea for a tier list, since it introduces a positive feedback loop into the system. Character X does well initially, so he goes to the top of the tier list. Everyone sees that character X is at the top of the tier list, so they decide to main him. The tournaments get saturated with character X, so of course character X earns a lot of points for his wins in the top matches. The cycle repeats, and the tier list stagnates. By the time someone comes along and proves that character Y is superior, too many people are still using character X, and character Y can't take his rightful place as a top tiered character.

Mmm, no.
when Character Y is found to be an X counter, people will pick Y up to try and overthrow all the X characters. This is why no one tier list is perfect, and many are created over the years.
When melee first came out, people had Link fever, and he was a pretty hot commodity, but then Shieks emerged, and became the new best thing, and them Marth took over, and the Space animals, and so on and so on. Chances are, Snake is not the Akuma of Brawl, and better things will be found later on...maybe.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Low Tier:

Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
ZSS
Ike
Fox
Mario
Luigi
Bowser

...I'm trying to make an argument that DK deserves higher placement on the "High Tier" category, and yet, people still put him as low tier?

And anyone who thinks that DK's recovery is easy to gimp is understandably (but also undeniably) incorrect.

Additionally, many people seem to think that DK is a ridiculously easy character to learn how to use. This has truth to it, but it only goes so far; many people who use DK aren't using him very well and there are many intricacies to the character. Also, while I would consider changing my thought that Wario isn't as good as DK (I'm going to man up and admit that I was underrating Wario), DK still has an advantage over him in the individual match. He out-ranges him hard with tilts and smashes and has more priority in most attacks (DK's f-tilt cancels Wario's SH D-air approach.)

Nonetheless, I still believe DK deserves higher placement on the tier list and is a better character than Wolf.

 

[Grunt]

Additionally, many people seem to think that DK is a ridiculously easy character to learn how to use.

Of course he is. you play him just like snake.

Sit at one end of the stage, throw in a couple of B moves, and F-tilt out of your shield for massive damage.

 

[Randofu]

The point isnt his age. even if he's 30, if lots of people play snake because they think he's good (but they themselves suck) and they all go to a tourney and lose, they drop to near zero/into the negatives. this takes a very good character, and makes him look really bad compared to characters that suck horribly, but have like + points because of lack of play.

First, they shouldn't get into the quarter-finals if they suck. If they get there, they must be doing SOMETHING right.

Second, one thing I didn't mention is that you should discard games that are X vs. X. Otherwise, a character's win/lose ratio would be 1:1 if everyone decides to use that character.

Look at ankoku's ranking chart. certain points are given to certain places, so it's not First place=1, not first place= 0

I know. This is a good idea, which is why I suggested it. I did not suggest "First place=1, not first place= 0".

True, but this is what a tier list is, and there will always be some sort of bias. this is why there are match up charts created as well, to balance actual character skill with tourney representation.

Saying "there will always be some sort of bias" doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to eliminate it. Here's a similar concept: there's always some luck involved in the tournaments, but people still turn items off to try to eliminate luck as much as possible.

Of course, I do think that the match up charts are also a very good idea.

Mmm, no.
when Character Y is found to be an X counter, people will pick Y up to try and overthrow all the X characters. This is why no one tier list is perfect, and many are created over the years.
When melee first came out, people had Link fever, and he was a pretty hot commodity, but then Shieks emerged, and became the new best thing, and them Marth took over, and the Space animals, and so on and so on. Chances are, Snake is not the Akuma of Brawl, and better things will be found later on...maybe.

Yeah, I oversimplified things. It would, however, be possible to get caught in a cycle of counterpicks, but I kind of have to go, so I'll have to leave it to your imagination. I'm still convinced that a non-popularity biased system will handle this dynamic better, but it's just not worth it to me to mathematically prove such a thing. So, you can take my advice or leave it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Of course he is. you play him just like snake.

Sit at one end of the stage, throw in a couple of B moves, and F-tilt out of your shield for massive damage.

lol whut? he can't do that against half the cast because he has no projectile, you have to be good at power shielding and getting around campers, he's about an average difficulty character to play, not easy

 

[Grunt]

uh, i didn't say they got into he semi finals, i said they got dead last.

the points about Matchup chart and the multiple points to different tourney placings: all i was saying is that these things are already being done. matchups are to help eliminate bias and popularity. ex: TL and falco dont have very good placings, but have incredible skill and matchups. TL is placing in like, the D rank, but has very good matchups, so he will probably be somewhere in high mid->high.

Basically, there are already things being done to eliminate bias, and have tiers become less of a popularity contest.

lol whut? he can't do that against half the cast because he has no projectile, you have to be good at power shielding and getting around campers, he's about an average difficulty character to play, not easy

ROFL, it's a joke.

 

[Veng]

DK I have played and maybe im bad with him but he flat out sucks.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Tier List

I would put your list as refreshing, I would say people need to see this is not as the current list but as one for the future. Some however are just flat out wrong, Marth that low? Shiek that high?

 

[Grunt]

DK I have played and maybe im bad with him but he flat out sucks.

Yes you are bad with him. DK is a beast.

 

[SlimJimPPJ]

My first list.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch

Near Top Tier:
Falco
R.O.B
Marth
King Dedede
Toon Link

High Tier:
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Wario
Pit
Zelda
Donkey Kong
Olimar

Mid Tier:
Lucario
Fox
Kirby
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSSamus
Ness
Mario
Ike

Low Tier:
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Shiek
Bowser
Ganondorf
Link
Yoshi
Samus

Bottom Tier:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Why am I getting the feeling that every time someone brings up a character, they use the "He's harder to use than other characters" Argument to try and back up their claim? It's really getting silly at this point, a wide majority of charcters with FEW EXCEPTIONS are not that hard to learn at all. Mastering them and being able to compete with them is a slightly different story, but using that in a jest to move a character up and just.....useless.

I'm not saying it's not nesscessarily an always wrong thing, but it shouldn't be used as the base of an argument

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Why am I getting the feeling that every time someone brings up a character, they use the "He's harder to use than other characters" Argument to try and back up their claim? It's really getting silly at this point, a wide majority of charcters with FEW EXCEPTIONS are not that hard to learn at all. Mastering them and being able to compete with them is a slightly different story, but using that in a jest to move a character up and just.....useless.

I'm not saying it's not nesscessarily an always wrong thing, but it shouldn't be used as the base of an argument

I completely agree.

BUT!

A deaf, blind, and ******** monkey with alzheimer's and no thumbs could master MK in about 10 minutes.

 

[Grunt]

OMG GUISE! flacon for top, cuz noone's using him rite.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I completely agree.

BUT!

A deaf, blind, and ******** monkey with alzheimer's and no thumbs could master MK in about 10 minutes.

Them be Johnin' words buddy >_>.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Them be Johnin' words buddy >_>.

Hey man, 's all good. I agreed with what you said in the previous post though. I didn't mean to make it seem like i was johning about MK. I mean, without him, all those deaf, blind, ******** monkeys with alzheimer's and no thumbs wouldn't have a main

Edit: I HATE metaknight. Despise him. Not because I get beat by metaknights constantly and not cus he's broken and not cus everyone uses him. I just dislike the character and a majority of the people who play them (at least in my experience, thats not to say anything about the lovely MK users of SWF)

 

[Blistering Speed]

I dislike general MK users, as they reek of bandwagon. The problem with MK I can see in the future is that he's so simple a character with no AT's, where can MK players go after a certain level of spacing and mindgames?

But for the while, he's outright amazingness will keep him 2nd or joint first. G&W is NOT better then him as I have seen some people put him above MK

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I dislike general MK users, as they reek of bandwagon. The problem with MK I can see in the future is that he's so simple a character with no AT's, where can MK players go after a certain level of spacing and mindgames?

But for the while, he's outright amazingness will keep him 2nd or joint first. G&W is NOT better then him as I have seen some people put him above MK

Psssh.....who needs ATs when you've got ridiculous speed, Priority, and aerial ability.


I've actually seen some credible people say there's a good chance MK is the most likely Top/High tier character to forever stay that way >_>


And the Bandwagon part really applies for almost all Top/High Tier characters, not just MK. No one can deny the spike of Snake users lately (Myself included is a Snake user, but he was one of my secondaries from the start, along with DDD,Wolf,MK, and Kirby. Falco was my main at first, but I decided he was too different from Melee, then I watched Tru='s video of Metaknight, then decided to main him from that day forward)

 

[SaxDude93]

We need more Mario and Ganon discussion. Umm...Mario is the last mid tier and Ganon is top of low tier. Lol. We need boss in here or something.

 

[Frown]

We need more Mario and Ganon discussion. Umm...Mario is the last mid tier and Ganon is top of low tier. Lol. We need boss in here or something.

GANON IS TEH BROKEN SH*T HIS ATTACKS DO 25%!!!!!11

No, really. That guy takes low speed to a completely new level. I mean, his "I hit five times and deal 80%" style just doesn't work too well.

Regarding Mario: I don't know. All I know is that Luigi is better.

 

[jiovanni007]

We need more Mario and Ganon discussion. Umm...Mario is the last mid tier and Ganon is top of low tier. Lol. We need boss in here or something.

Boss is quite disgusting, I also believe that Mario should be somewhere in the mid tier but people usually come in a troll about some

"WAAAHH!! MARIO HAS NO RANGE!!! WAAAAHH!!! MARIO'S PROJEKTILE SUX!!! WAAAHHHH HE CUN'T RECOVER!!! WAHHHHAAAHHH!!! UR NOOBZ!!!"

But seriously, he has a lagless bair withou autocanceling, a low lag uair, fireballs are actually amazing if you're not an r-tard, edgeguarding is good, though his recovery does perhaps keep him from moving up too terribly high on the list.

 

[Ratherion]

Why am I getting the feeling that every time someone brings up a character, they use the "He's harder to use than other characters" Argument to try and back up their claim? It's really getting silly at this point, a wide majority of charcters with FEW EXCEPTIONS are not that hard to learn at all. Mastering them and being able to compete with them is a slightly different story, but using that in a jest to move a character up and just.....useless.

I'm not saying it's not nesscessarily an always wrong thing, but it shouldn't be used as the base of an argument

Lawls, PT you mean?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I saved a replay of myself Up-B-ing the instant another Donkey Kong did his super punch on me and I didn't get knockback. The SA frames only exist during the beginning of his Up-B. I don't know if it works while he is using Up-B as a recovery though. I won't be posting it on youtube because I don't have a capture device.

Can you ask any DK mainers if they have a video? I am skeptical.

Half the time you can just float back to the stage, so his recovery isn't much of the problem.

Donkey Kong doesn't float very well and most of the time your opponent is going to be ready for an edgeguard so you usually have to flying kong it.

Besides, if your opponent approaches you off the stage, DK has 3 meteor smashes that he can use.

if he Fairs its too slow and he gets hit first, if he whiffs it he drops more.
Dair again little range
He has little options.

Do either that or sweet spot the edge. What I like to do is Up-B so it looks like I'm going to land on the stage, and then DI back to sweet spot the edge.

Yes that could somewhat work but again then you have getting back on stage from that ledge, what methods does DK have to get back onto the stage while grabbing the ledge?
I've seen DK users prefer getting back onto the stage rather than the ledge.

True, but all of DK's tilts are a lot faster, and when it comes down to a slow character you really have to depend on fast tilts. DK's f-tilt and d-tilt smack away a lot of projectiles too.

It depends on the projectile, they don't smack away lasers but they can break Link's arrows and boomerang.
Nor can he exactly rely on hitting the projectiles constantly since they'll usually be masking a different attack behind them.

Yeah, but it has no landing lag and it comes out really fast so you can do 2 in a row without getting punished.
If you space yourself correctly, and DI once the hitbox is finished, it's extremely hard to get punished (shield grab). It also has great priority so chances are he won't get hit while he's doing his bair.

Hmm okay I agree with you. I thought DK doesn't have very great aerial movement to DI with though.

I still say its overrated! :ninja:

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Lawls, PT you mean?

PT is one of those exceptions, isn't it obvious lol.

Learning 3 characters and how to use them at the situation requred>>>Learning one character.

 

[adumbrodeus]

We need more Mario and Ganon discussion. Umm...Mario is the last mid tier and Ganon is top of low tier. Lol. We need boss in here or something.

Boss WAS here...


That's when we all discovered that he fell into the "tires don exits" crowd. Yeah, please don't bring him back, the fact that he's an awesome mario doesn't really help in a discussion if he's not adding anything to it.


Ganondorf... not too much to say beyond discussing whether he's worse then falcon (a fact I hate since he's one of my secondaries).

 

[Kiwikomix]

There really are some characters that take more time to learn than others, it's true... no offense to NSS and any other MK mains, but he's pretty easy to pick up, as are Ike and Pit. Pit and MK at least have a certain amount of skill attached at least... Ike's just an idiot.