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Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
Probably a stupid question, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask:

Does the game register releasing and re-pressing a button in one frame as a new press? Like, if I was holding R on one frame, then on the next I released and re-pressed it, what would happen?

Just trying to figure out if it's related to that weird powershield thing.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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A physics engine works as a loop. Read inputs, calculate movement, calculate collisions, display, repeat. It does not read inputs except once per frame. If you are holding R for 2 reads in a row the game will just display you as holding your shield, even if you actually had a robot that pressed and released R 55 times between reading cycles.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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no you cant sdi with the cstick

idk what you mean about buffering DI. DI doesn't buffer. You can option select DI during an attack, though.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
thats not even worth calling it an option select.

nobody says im going to upsmash vs down smash because if I get hit out of it I will di up.

just because u get another action doesn't mean the game chose that action over another because it was better.

most common option selects to compare to....dash and if they jump its an air throw in MvC3.

ryzol-holding either the control stick or c stick in any direction when u get hit will give u 1 input of asdi. the only way to "buffer" is during another action or continue holding after that action ceases, such as using c stick to up smash, but uuuu continue to hold the c stick up.

no tricks really, di is best done with a combination of predicting the attack and smashing the sticks on reaction.

:phone:
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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DIing while you are in lag for a move is an option select, just like inputting the press for a tech while you upb is an option select. You are performing actions on the controller that may or may not be seen on screen depending on the actions of your opponent.
 

Ryzol_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
176
Location
Greenville, SC (school) Charlotte, NC(break)
no tricks really, di is best done with a combination of predicting the attack and smashing the sticks on reaction.

:phone:
Alright. My problem is DI'ing up when I am in a tumble without accidentally jumping. Sometimes I am in stun so I don't jump, other times I jump out of the tumble when I wanted to save my double jump.

I take it there isn't a way to avoid this?
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
yea but there is a phase of sdi that happens during your hitlag which allows action b4 this option select. its just a buffer. u aren't even in attack frames and u don't switch from those directly to asdi.


ryzol-hmmm can u give me am example of when it happens. sounds like u may be di late, or I heard u can buffer jumps out of hitstun.

:phone:
 

Fortress | Sveet

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you can buffer jumps out of DI, but if you are buffering a jump i think you late on your DI. Make sure you are DIing before you are hit, since as soon as hitlag ends your DI input will be read.
 

Ryzol_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
176
Location
Greenville, SC (school) Charlotte, NC(break)
yea but there is a phase of sdi that happens during your hitlag which allows action b4 this option select. its just a buffer. u aren't even in attack frames and u don't switch from those directly to asdi.


ryzol-hmmm can u give me am example of when it happens. sounds like u may be di late, or I heard u can buffer jumps out of hitstun.

:phone:
Let's say CF hits you with a nair and you think his next move will be a knee so you want to DI up. You hold up before CF knees you, but this breaks you out of hitstun causing you to lose your DJ right before the knee connects.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
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well holding a direction in preparation of an attack is sub optimal in that case. smash the stick when u get hit so that you get sdi which are twice as effective and u can get potentially more than 1. it seems like u are just buffering a jump, practice better di and u won't have that problem.

or for now, just hold the c stick instead, u won't jump (if im not mistaken) and the asdi is the same.

:phone:
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
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7,443
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Greensboro, NC
yeah, you're just doing it too early. this happens a ton to me against sheik. i DI just a touch too early and get slapped with no jump. just gotta wait for the hit, and DI it when it actually comes. a funny offensive tactic is to delay your hit that extra fraction, to see if you can get them to do that jump.
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
what's proper way to DI captain falcon's dthrow as samus so as not to get knee'd
also, is it possible to avoid being combo'd out of his dthrow at all, aka, will 1 chosen DI result in an inability to be hit with any move he has out of his grab?
does that DI also prevent getting hit out of his up throw?

does anyone know the answers to these and what the meaning of life is?
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
Is there a way to buffer DI upwards so you don't jump? I know you can buffer DI after an attack, but what about when you do not want to attack?
Unless you start DIing at least 21 frames before hitstun ends, no. Jump during hitstun buffers for 20 frames.

3: you're going to get hit. the best way is to mix up your DI so they have to at least react. up and slightly away is hard to react to and knee from what I've experienced.
 

commonyoshi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
6,215
Location
dainty perfect
In a tournament, who has to pick their character first in the first match of a set?

Like if P1 usually plays falco and P2 plays captain falcon. P2 doesn't like the matchup so he wants to pick marth. Now P1 doesn't like falco vs marth so he does puff. But P2 knows he has an edge with his falcon vs puff... and so on and so on.
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
it's honor code unless you want to blind pick (which is a rule)
you can have the TO come over and you tell them in secret what character you're going to go
and then he makes sure you go that character

then for the 2nd match loser picks stage, winner can pick char, then loser can pick char
 

L__

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
4,459
Location
flopmerica
when I use my L button it lightshields a few seconds after sometimes

does anyone know how to fix this? I've tried resetting my controller a lot and it didn't help
 

Elliot

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
13
Location
Camp Lejeune NC
What parts of the controller are active for grab shake outs?

After seeing armada shake out at 70% I'm determined to learn as well.

Also any shake out tips/pointers?
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
What would be a good way of going about plaing w/ the frames & animation counter at the top
like the AR video's, where it shows what animation your character is performing and for how many frames he has been performing that

Basically I want that to be active in a real time, c stick enabled match

Also to add onto that, would there be a way to record that captures every frame of action

My goal, essentially, is to be able to see how far from perfect I (we, my crew) am with some technical abilities.
 

mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
What would be a good way of going about plaing w/ the frames & animation counter at the top
like the AR video's, where it shows what animation your character is performing and for how many frames he has been performing that

Basically I want that to be active in a real time, c stick enabled match

Also to add onto that, would there be a way to record that captures every frame of action

My goal, essentially, is to be able to see how far from perfect I (we, my crew) am with some technical abilities.
You need to have a copy of smash that has the debug menu enabled. It also gives you all the AR abilities you could want, it's pretty much perfect.

I'd ask around and see if anyone has an ISO sitting around that you could burn.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
What parts of the controller are active for grab shake outs?

After seeing armada shake out at 70% I'm determined to learn as well.

Also any shake out tips/pointers?
From M2K's website; everything you could ever want to know about getting out of a grab.

Grab Escape Speed Formula (and the factors that affect it)

The formula for escaping a grab (NOT special grabs, like Bowser's Koopa Klaw) is the following. The variables are, as you probably know, "t" = time(in frames) stuck in a grab, "b" = amount of times victim presses buttons to escape quicker, and "d" = damage of victim.

The formula is...

"t" = "1.6d" + 76 - "6b"

At 0%, without any usage of the analog stick or any buttons, it takes exactly 76 frames (1.26666...) to escape a grab. On average, every damage more an opponent receives, the time they're stuck in a grab is increased by 1.6 frames. Since the game doesn't have fractions of a frame, it goes like this for every 5% an opponent receieves(and then the process/pattern continues). +2 frames, +2 frames, +1 frame, + 2 frames, + 1 frame. That's how it works. I also found that every flash when Mew2 grabs you occurs exactly 24 frames apart(and the 1st one starts on the 3rd frame of the grab), which is the exact same speed as Falco's laser when it's shot on the ground rapidly(except for the 1st shot, which starts on frame 23). Also, here is a general list of what affects escaping a grab by how much.

-----Press A, B, L, R, X, Y, or Z - 6 frames is reduced from the time you'd be held in a grab.

-----Press The Analog stick in 1 of the 4 cardinal directions(angles don't count) - 6 frames is reduced from the time you're held in a grab (24 frames is reduced after 1 complete rotation of the analog stick, so 2 and 1/2 rotations reduces the time by 1 second).

The characters that shock you when they're holding you(except Ice Climbers with both of them) with they're grab+A move, which include(in no specific order)...

1) Mewtwo
2) Pichu
3) Pikachu
4) Zelda
5) Ice Climbers(with both of them, by pressing A really really fast)

...stun a grabbed foe for for 5 frames, and every single other character in the game(??? on Giga Bowser, Master/Crazy Hand) stun a foe for only 3 frames. Yes, you can actually increase the time a character is held by pressing A to attack them in a grab. The total time for ever A attack (in a grab) is EXACTLY 26 frames, so that means that you'll be able to shock a foe with Mew2, Pika/Pichu, Zelda and the 2 Ice Climbers about 1 more time in 12 or 13 times than you'd be able to do with another character, which gives those 5 characters an very very very slight advantage over other characters when you hold and attack them.

Here's a little list on the amount of frames a character is held in a grab at each damage percentage(counting by 5's)

---------------0% - 76 (1.2666 sec)
5% - 84
10% - 92
15% - 100
20% - 108
25% - 116
30% - 124
35% - 132
40% - 140
45% - 148
---------------50% - 156 (2.6 sec)
55% - 164
60% - 172
65% - 180
70% - 188
75% - 196
80% - 204
85% - 212
90% - 220
95% - 228
---------------100% - 236 (3.9333 sec)
105% - 244
110% - 252
115% - 260
120% - 268
125% - 276
130% - 284
135% - 292
140% - 300
145% - 308
---------------150% - 316 (5.2666 sec)
155% - 324
160% - 332
165% - 340
170% - 348
175% - 356
180% - 364
185% - 372
190% - 380
195% - 388
---------------200% - 396 (6.6 sec)
205% - 404
210% - 412
215% - 420
220% - 428
225% - 436
230% - 444
235% - 452
240% - 460
245% - 468
---------------250% - 476 (7.9333 sec)
255% - 484
260% - 492
265% - 500
270% - 508
275% - 516
280% - 524
285% - 532
290% - 540
295% - 548
---------------300% - 556 (9.2666 sec)
305% - 564
310% - 572
315% - 580
320% - 588
325% - 596
330% - 604
335% - 612
340% - 620
345% - 628
---------------350% - 636 (10.6 sec)
355% - 644
360% - 652
365% - 660
370% - 668
375% - 676
380% - 684
385% - 692
390% - 700
395% - 708
---------------400% - 716 (11.9333 sec)

also...
0% - normal time
47% - 2X time
95% - 3X time
142% - 4X time
190% - 5X time
237% - 6X time
285% - 7X time
332% - 8X time
380% - 9X time
427% - 10X time
997% - 22X time
 

hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
how does buffering work? I hear about players buffering rolls, how does one do this? Can you buffer a nair out of shield so it comes out the first frame possible?

for ice climbers side-b and doc/mario's down-b, is height determined by the speed you press b or do you also need to hold up on the analog stick?

when a character misses a tech and is on the ground, when are they invincible? what attacks can hit a character when they're on the ground?

when a fox is waveshining you across the stage, can you di out of it? what about SDI-ing the shine that sends you off the stage to avoid a shine-spike?

if you're on the ledge at high-percent, do any of your options provide invincibility (get-up attacks or roll)?
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
how does buffering work? I hear about players buffering rolls, how does one do this? Can you buffer a nair out of shield so it comes out the first frame possible?

for ice climbers side-b and doc/mario's down-b, is height determined by the speed you press b or do you also need to hold up on the analog stick?

when a character misses a tech and is on the ground, when are they invincible? what attacks can hit a character when they're on the ground?

when a fox is waveshining you across the stage, can you di out of it? what about SDI-ing the shine that sends you off the stage to avoid a shine-spike?

if you're on the ledge at high-percent, do any of your options provide invincibility (get-up attacks or roll)?

1.a Buffering does not really exist in melee as it does in Brawl. The closest thing is IASA frames, or "Interruptable As Soon As" Frames. Instead of waiting for the current attack to finish (say Marth's forward aerial) and stringing another forward aerial after it with no frame delay in between, which is what buffering is, an attack with the IASA property (check out your character's frame data stickies to look at these) can actually be interrupted during its animation. So, if you're Marth, and you've just used forward air, at a certain point in the animation (frame specifics are again, in the stickies) you can input the command for another attack, including another forward air, and that will end the attack animation prematurely (the hitbox still came out, though, dw about that) and start the next attack. That attack can be interrupted as well.

1.b When players talk about buffering rolls, they are not "truly" buffering. Buffering is defined as inputting the command for an action before your current action has ended, and the game picking up on that input and, once your current action is complete, starting the next action (which you inputted) for you, immediately afterward. Melee will not do that automatically for you, you must input manually. The exception comes when you have to use one of the analog sticks for the action. If you smash the gray analog stick up, Melee reads it as an input for a jump. If you keep it smashed up, and you don't let it snap back to center, Melee will not continually read "jump" inputs, just as it will not continually read "laser" inputs if you were playing Fox and just holding down the B button. However, if you go into any sort of attack stun (shield stun, hit by an attack), the very frame you come out of the stun, Melee will re-read that analog stick you've been holding up. It will accept it as an input for a jump.

While shielding, when an opponent is attacking your shield, and keeping you in shield stun, you can hold the c-stick to either side, and as soon as the player's attack rhythms come to a point where they are not shield-stunning you frequently enough, a gap opens where you're no longer in shieldstun, and the game has read the input from the c-stick you've been holding to the side. You have rolled at the earliest possible time. You have "buffered" a roll.

1.c This explanation applies to jumps as well, when you hold either analog stick upwards out of a shield. But notice that to nair, you have to press the A button. Melee will not buffer button presses. You can buffer the jump that puts you in the air for the N-air, but you will have to time the N-air yourself. It's a manual input only. Takes practice to get it frame-perfect.

2 It is purely the speed at which you press B. This is something you could have tested yourself.

3.a Characters are never invincible for any reason when they hit the ground. If you hit the ground you're just as vulnerable as you were if you were standing up. The game allows you invincibility frames only after you've pressed the L, <-L->, or A/B buttons, so you have time to get back up. Search through frame data stickies to find out more specific information about invincibility lengths.

3.b Any attack that has a low enough hitbox (see the character hitbox and frame data stickies) to touch the character on the ground's body (or "hurtbox") will hit the grounded character.

4.a You can't DI waveshines. If you could, various other wonky mechanics exist. So you can't.

4.b I don't know if you can SDI a shine off-stage.

5 Both get-up attack and roll provide invincibility frames. Invincibility frames are the white flashes you see on your character.
 

MT_

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
791
Location
Austin, TX
When shielding at the edge of a platform and someone hits you so that the momentum sends you off the platform, why is it that sometimes you enter falling animation and sometimes you are enter free animation, from which you can do anything (jump, attack, etc.)? And how do you influence which of the two animations you enter?
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
When shielding at the edge of a platform and someone hits you so that the momentum sends you off the platform, why is it that sometimes you enter falling animation and sometimes you are enter free animation, from which you can do anything (jump, attack, etc.)? And how do you influence which of the two animations you enter?
I actually read a lot about the mechanics behind that once. We call that falling animation a "tumble". I'll try to dig up the thread about being pushed off platforms and edit this.

Oh, until I find it, what I know from memory: Very strong hits send you into "reeling", after a little bit you go into "tumbling", which is falling after hitstun without acting (can be canceled by jumping/attacking, NOT by up-b or airdodge)

Still can't find that thread. I tested it though, and at face value, it seems that if you're shielding and hit off a platform, and your BACK is to the edge of the platform, you will always enter tumble. If you are FACING the edge (i.e. your opponent is surely behind you) shielding and you get knocked off, you will always enter normal falling animation where any aerial action can be performed.

It seems like there would be useful instances of tumbling off a platform intentionally, to get the tech roll if you character happens to have a long one (like C. Falcon) to put more distance between you and your opponent.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
All information courtesy of the wonderful and magnanimous M2K.

Shield Release Recovery Time - this rates how much of a lag there is after you release the shield button (R, L, and sometimes used is Z).

Group A
---14 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Jigglypuff / Peach / Zelda

Group B
---15 frames recovery time
---14 characters: DK / Dr. Mario / Falco / Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Link / Luigi / Mario / Ness / Pichu / Pikachu / Sheik / Young Link

Group C
---16 frames recovery time
---8 characters: Bowser / Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Marth / Mewtwo / Mr. Game & Watch / Roy / Samus

Group D
---17 frames recovery time
---1 character: Yoshi
 

hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
are there any other moves besides jab that send a character who is on the ground into a reset?

is it possible to jump-cancel jab's (so that one could do a jab out of a dash or a shine)? what about up-tilts? what exactly can be jump-cancelled (executed during the jumpsquat animation)?
 
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