Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[MysteriousSilver]

I plan on it, but there's probably months worth of logistics to go through before I can get the location I want, lol.

Plus, I think there's like, seven brawl players in the city I live in.

 

[-LzR-]

If you want to discuss new stuff listen to this: Bludgeon items are broken. I'd rather have bob-ombs on than bludgeon items. Pick a beam sword against something without a projectile, he is already dead. As if you approach a beam sword, you may shield the hit, but before you can use out of a shield stuff, you are hit again. This encourages stalling. I think the most nonbroken one is lip's stick as it's not too fast and it's has a little smaller range, and it doesn't kill when thrown, like star rod does. Also I think motion sensor bombs should be put to counterpick/banned (if not already there) as when thrown, it kills at around 80% at best, with no risks involved. If you miss, it just latches on the ground. And it's very easy to cause a grab release into it. On the positive, sandbag is awesome. It is an anticamping tool. I use it as a shield to approach projectile campers and to remove my decay. That is all, let's discuss.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Beam Sword can easily get punished if you use a Smash Attack with them, to add, some characters that use bat like items time to handle if your not use to items. Star Rod needs more discussion. Motion Sensors should be at least counterpick, that item is not too dangerous to be considered banned because at least half of the router can destroy the Motion Sensors with various of moves, (even Ike's Down Tilt can destroy a Motion Sensor bomb at the right distance without getting hurt). Not to mention it's not hard to track with the blinking lights, unlike Snake's C4's. †

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

♪ Beam Sword can easily get punished if you use a Smash Attack with them, to add, some characters that use bat like items time to handle if your not use to items. Star Rod needs more discussion. Motion Sensors should be at least counterpick, that item is not too dangerous to be considered banned because at least half of the router can destroy the Motion Sensors with various of moves, (even Ike's Down Tilt can destroy a Motion Sensor bomb at the right distance without getting hurt). Not to mention it's not hard to track with the blinking lights, unlike Snake's C4's. †

Does rolling set off the sensor? That could be another viable method of setting it off safely that everyone has access too.

 

[-LzR-]

Beam Sword jab and ftilt are broken, not the smash.

 

[§leepy God]

Does rolling set off the sensor? That could be another viable method of setting it off safely that everyone has access too.

♪ When your rolling after you grab the ledge. Other than that, it's very blowhearted to try to roll pass it. †

Beam Sword jab and ftilt are broken, not the smash.

♪ Jabs don't have enough range, and Forward Tilts of the Beam Sword doesn't have enough knock back to be broken. :/ †

 

['V']

Beam swords are fun.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I wouldn't be opposed to re-stickying this... but only if there is enough activity to merit it. "Sticky plz!" doesn't count as activity btw, ^_^''

While being active is good and all things like this need to be stickied anyways to relay information.

 

[§leepy God]

Beam swords are fun.

♪ Oh I totally agree. Plus it makes some characters like Samus looks cool to play. ;3 †

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Interesting thread. I read the first post, if you can somehow figure out how to work certain spawn points, I will be interested in this idea. Good job so far btw.

 

[AtrixWolfe]

Character Balance vs Smash Balls

I want to give some input in regards to smash balls.

I am new to competitive smash bros. I have zero tourneys under my belt, however casual observation can see smash balls and their resulting abilities lend balance to characters. For example, metaknight's smash move is easy to avoid as well as see coming (sorry in using the M word here). Sonic's Final Smash can be overpowering. A friend and I joke he exclaims "Now I'll win!" instead of whatever he actually says. Though sonic's speed is keen, it can be pretty hard to knock someone out until higher percent. Most Final Smashes in actuality are easy to avoid. However there are those that are vastly superior to others. Falco's is very overpowering with his long time and forever boosters (just boost them off the top of the screen, aka boosting tank ride). Skilled players can reduce stock by two especially on slow characters on many levels. Some like pikachu's, are harder to optimize but still devastating, and others like Ganondorf's and Lucario's are dependent on the levels you're on and even characters you are against.
So I ask you, in our brawl tourney world where items are disabled, what happens if only one item is let in, the smash ball. You think tier lists are going to vastly change or remain the same? In collecting the smash balls do other characters get more of an advantage than others and if so are they usually ones with less stellar Final Smashes? Are some simply overpowered? Let's begin conversing Even in 1v1 play, though it may come down to who can control the collection better, I believe consistency can be maintained. Some Final Smashes, against pros, would be even unuseful. Get the timing down for kirby's cooking pot and it's useless. On a stage you can walk or stay off screen, Nes and Lucas's is merely a few percent from proc damage from being offstage. On a big stage, Donkey Kongs bongos and Luigi's Final Smashes as well as Jigglypuffs are pretty next to useless. Small stages however... face ******, or can be. Links and Tinks and other Final Smash's such as Ike's that can be combo'd into are devastating. In the hands of skilled players. Even captain falcon's is highly respectable in the hands of a person who can combo them into it, if they are at high enough percent they cannot simply air/spot dodge out. It seems to me though, whatever the case it lends a balance to the character. Not saying tier lists are gonna equal out, however it seems there might be more international tourney picks. Let me know your guys' thoughts on the matter.

 

[CRASHiC]

I'll touch on this later, but let me say that it would overpower sonic. Can't respond right now in full.
Sonic can litterally get 2 full kills while in that mode against some characters.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Zair to Final Smash is a true combo for Toon Link...No smash balls...

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, for 1v1, Smash Balls are definitely a no-go. Sure, on the surface it definitely SEEMS like they were intended to help balance people out (although I am not personally prepared to give Sak that kind of credit, ), they really aren't balanced at all. CRASHiC is totally right; a skilled Sonic can simply hover on top of an opponent to rack up damage very quickly, then (basically) dash dance in the air to get a quick kill... and still have time to do it again after the respawn (the whole reason this works is because Sonic's aerial mobility in SS form allows him to intersect an opponent long past their original spot/air dodge).

Plus... Landmaster. 3 of them.

Now, 2v2 is a different story. It's harder to surgically strike with a giant tank than you might think. ^_-

Honestly, though, I never realized Tlink's Zair true comboed into a FS. That's... wow.

 

[LoganW]

who's the best character with items?

 

[AtrixWolfe]

I'll touch on this later, but let me say that it would overpower sonic. Can't respond right now in full.
Sonic can litterally get 2 full kills while in that mode against some characters.

He can if he knocks them out at earliest opportunity two times in a row, maybe not good for 1v1 but in larger matchups. Then again, so can falco and others, and as always it could be made up, ya?

Zair to Final Smash is a true combo for Toon Link...No smash balls...

What do you mean no smash balls? lol. There are other combos too I 'm sure.
It could vastly shape team game as well. I wonder how it would reshape brawl as a whole. The question of banning is, imo, will the game become about this move, is there no counter, and/or does it make game depth less.
There are counters, in controlling smash balls collecting. Randomness dictates a disadvantage at random with it. Fast players/characters receive an advantage to arriving first but that is not only rarely ideal it results in the harder hitting chars usually collecting it in one hit.
I do not believe this reduces the winning of the game to smash balls collections. Speculation here, some currently top tier characters would move down (MK, DDD), other lower tiers would move up (Sonic, maybe pikachu, Link, maybe Ganondorf), a few would continue (Falco), might even get unstoppable, however it would remain to be seen as the only way to tell for sure is thorough widespread use. A escape to Falco may be found, consistent counters to Sonic's may be found. Only then are new techniques invented and discovered.
And due to new techniques, counters and also character balance introduced through Final smashes I do believe game depth will increase. Viewing a Final Smash as part of the move list of a character, it is sort of ridiculous to compare, directly, Final Smashes character to character as the ending worth of a overall character. Many characters can not recover from a almost horizontal ring out. Many characters up B are far superior to others. We have to check the over all effective use of the character considering smash balls a move of that character that may or may not be easy to obtain.

 

[Lovely]

who's the best character with items?

So far I'll say Wario currently on both 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2. Snake come's close IMO.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Falco....No doubt.

 

[Lovely]

How can I forget Falco, he's very good with items. You have to make sure you don't throw your items at him of he's reflect them most of the time. Items help Wario a lot to because he doesn't have any projectiles and most of his attacks you have to get close up, that alone helps him a lot to.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ I will put Falco as the best, plus his Final Smash is one of the best as well, all the reason that he might be overused in item tourney's. :/ †

 

[Jack Kieser]

Falco's lasers WRECK Smash Balls. Unless the SB floats to above his vertical jump range, he has a high chance of getting it, especially if his opponent is foolish enough to go after it first. Fox and Wolf also don't have as easy of a time getting double vertical kills with the Landmaster due to their speed of ascent; Falco doesn't have this restriction, and can get an easy (and I mean EASY) 2 stock off an opponent once he catches them off the respawn platform. Not to mention, Falco is an A-game camper ANYWAY, so camping for a SB is not a difficult option for him.

TL;DR: Falco + Smash Ball = ****.

 

[AtrixWolfe]

Falco's isn't unavoidable. However, it is often you end up taking high damage to avoid being tank boosted off the top. Even if he does get you once, he has to do it quickly to get you the second time (not as quickly as sonic, still). His time and boosters are forever, but his melee hits rarely knock out on his land master (Wolf's on the other hand...). If you do get hit out once and are on the cloud, just stay there till time is *almost* up and then drop through and start the chasing game. Success depends on chars and levels. Fast chars, like pikachu, or sonic, etc can get off the tank in most circumstances before it's too late. Case, it is beatable. In fact some level configurations render it useless. I think high level play edge guarding is going to be more successful as well as devastating, again however it depends on the level. In general a consensus can be given that the smaller the level/stage, the more important it is to get a smash ball and the easier it's going to be to get. Or at least try for.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You do realize that the Landmaster can carry you OUT of the respawn platform, right?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Okay, I haven't read through every post but, here are my opinions:
I died quite a few times to the Motion Sensor Bomb, I think it should be a counterpick.

Apart from that, it was really good. One question, why aren't all tourneys like this?
It adds fun to the game without making it a game of chance, and it takes skill to use the items effectively. They don't interfere too much with the gameplay and add new combos.

 

[Jack Kieser]

All tournaments aren't like this because years ago, the east and west coasts had a big fight over how much items degenerated play. After a long period of bickering, the community decided that items were degenerate, and ever since, items have been banned in tournament play. Since then, immature people who weren't present at the original debate have been arguing with other immature people about whether or not this was a good decision or not, and both sides have been slinging misinformation and insults at each other; due to this, when Brawl came out, items were never really given a legit chance and were (for all intents and purposes, since I know someone is going to come in here and suggest that the SBR did, in fact, test items at some point) auto-banned in Brawl.

Basically, years ago, people made a decision, and no one since has really challenged it in any meaningful way, other than to use hearsay and misinformation. Really, and this with all musterable modesty, this project was the only thing in recent time that tried to actually objectively / scientifically look at the viability of individual items in a competitive setting.

 

[Skadorski]

Okay, I haven't read through every post but, here are my opinions:
I died quite a few times to the Motion Sensor Bomb, I think it should be a counterpick.

Apart from that, it was really good. One question, why aren't all tourneys like this?
It adds fun to the game without making it a game of chance, and it takes skill to use the items effectively. They don't interfere too much with the gameplay and add new combos.

What Jack said and, IIRC, illegal gambling is caused by all three being true:

Having to pay to get in.
Having a prise for the winner.
Having to do with luck.

Brawl tournaments already fit 1 & 2, and if we added items (luck), that would be 3.

I don't want to be up 2 stocks and lose due to an item.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What Jack said and, IIRC, illegal gambling is caused by all three being true:

Having to pay to get in.
Having a prise for the winner.
Having to do with luck.

Brawl tournaments already fit 1 & 2, and if we added items (luck), that would be 3.

I don't want to be up 2 stocks and lose due to an item.

Which is part, unfortunately, of the misinformation of this whole debate. See, in an unrestricted items setting, this can (and does) happen quite frequently. But this also happens when STAGES are unrestricted, and we solved that problem with the stage ban / strike / CP system. There was, and is, no logical reason that wouldn't work with items, as well; WHOBO proved that pretty well.

Besides, tripping and SOME random elements on approved stages means that even our tournament Brawl DOES have plenty of luck-based elements; luck, on its own, is not a problem... its luck unmitigated as a main and central deciding factor in outcomes that is.

 

[Flayl]

I've died to a spawning gooey bomb, could have something to do with captain falcon using falcon kick/raptor boost. In fact, we both died, but I was at a lower % so that's why it irked me at the time.

 

[Lovely]

That's why Gooey Bomb's are counter pick. ;p

 

[Flayl]

No, that's why they should be banned.

 

[Jack Kieser]

No, that's why you take the risk into account before you activate them (or, if they scare you that much, you keep a CP in reserve in case your opponent activates them so YOU can turn them off). Part of the reason the Gooey Bomb is the only explosive that is not banned that is also able to be activated on spawn is because of all of the strategic uses; every other bomb is just aim, fire, and hope it hits. The Gooey Bomb is like a MSB without the motion and with a timer; it can be used to force approach, it can be used for stage control, it can be used for pressure, it can be placed on the edge during recovery to thwart a recovery attempt... you can purposefully miss and still use it strategically.

The Gooey Bomb is a very versatile item, strategically. So, it's counterpick, not neutral (because we aren't going to force an "explode on spawn" item on anyone) or banned (because that would unnecessarily remove a highly strategic item from the game entirely, and we're only banning things once they are patently broken).

 

[Flayl]

There is no strategy in being hit by a spawning gooey bomb, that's the whole point of removing exploding crates.

At least be consistent, lol.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It is consistent; this thread is FULL of this exact debate. I know 48 pages is a lot of thread to read, but I suggest you go back and read it, as well as the original thread (which is still linked to in the OP, afaik), which is ALSO filled with this debate.

Part of this project is to ban as little as possible, which is kind of the point of competitive gaming anyway. Containers have a LOT of problems that make it logical to ban them entirely:

* they can drop multiple items at a time, supersaturating the field and drastically changing the dynamic of the fight from a fight with items to a fight OVER items.
* their SD frequency is totally random (1 in 8, last time I checked), with the exception of the Blast Box, which ALWAYS SDs.
* they do disproportional damage / knockback.
* strategically, there is little to them, other than using a crate as a shield, which Sandbag does better anyway.
* have a greater mass, which INCREASES the chances of them spawning into an attack (excluding the Capsule).

The fact of the matter is that the whole reason we instituted a CP system in the first place is to make a distinction between items that have one or two weaknesses and items that totally change the dynamic of the match and degrade gameplay. The mathematical odds of a Gooey Bomb spawning in an attack with our current ruleset are very slim due to the fact that the Gooey Bomb is one item out of a large, diluted pool of items, and on top of that, they aren't even neutral! If one is to spawn on you, it's entirely your fault for turning them on; like we said in the OP, you have to weigh the risk of spawn kills with the benefit of using the item. If the risk to too great, don't turn it on; no one is forcing you. AND ON TOP OF THAT, there is a CP system in place that protects you by allowing you to counter the activation of the item or ban it from the set entirely.

There are SO MANY safeguards in our current ruleset from the problem of spawn kills that we don't need to take out the GB, especially at the sacrifice of all of the strategic value I've already noted.

TL;DR: No johns; if it spawn kills you, it's your own fault. You shouldn't have turned it on.

 

[Flayl]

It's entirely my fault the game's RNG decided I should die early with no warning.

I'm sorry, my bad for thinking this project was to make items competetitive. Can't say I'm disappointed, I guess I'll just have to use my own version of the ruleset then.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Johns, all johns. First of all, anyone who plays with items knows and willingly accepts that Brawl's RNG is going to play some factor in the match. Complaining about it is pointless, since we aren't trying to eliminate luck-factors with ISP, we're trying to mitigate them and bring them into acceptable ranges.

If the risk of the Gooey Bomb isn't worth it, in your opinion, TURN IT OFF. You're making it sound like you're being forced to play with it. L2read the OP, first off: we posted alternate rulesets made by other players already, and we explicitly state that this is a suggested, recommended ruleset, just like the SBR ruleset is! Change it; you're not hurting anyone's feelings.

The whole point of items play is that the people who are willing to play with items DON'T agree with the popular notion that "competitive = 0 luck factors".

So, I'm sorry, my bad for thinking you read the thread and had enough reading comprehension skill to understand the purposes of the project. Can't say I'm disappointed, I guess I'll just have to discuss with people who don't john so much then.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Bombs coming out of no where when your doing an attack does on people's nerves true, but looking at the first post reasons why Gooey Bomb is counter pick gives off a great reason to be a counter pick item instead of a ban item as in, you don't have to play this item on. The item I like to talk about more is the Pitfall. †

 

[Twin Dreams]

I was bored. Stopped in. Probably won't be back.



Nothing redeems an on-hit explosive. How do you "take the risk into account" when the risk is getting blown up ANYTIME you produce a hitbox?

The "strategic uses"? Give me a break. Everyone knows the timer and it can be easily dodged. If I was playing a defensive strategy and the dude gooey bombs at me, I'm not going to suddenly attack. I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing and either dodge/jump/move away for a split second for the explosion then continue doing what I doing.

It's completely useless. It's useless even if you actually stick it to them.

But, that's my opinion. I'm sure you know from my and heroboy's first couple pages of debate. Just remember that you have to consider all scenarios. If gooeybombs are allowed.... one day at some point it's going to spawn on someone at a finals match with both players over 300% and gimp one.

 

[Jack Kieser]

...or, both players who make it to a finals match will be intelligent enough on their own to take the risk into account and simply not turn them on. Besides, there's a risk of tripping anytime you decide to run or turn; that, on its own, doesn't invalidate the entire game, though. A good player can and will ALWAYS assume he's going to trip and have a plan just in case.

Either way, it's a CP item. The vast majority of people complaining about the GB are people who either:

* don't even play ISP
* play ISP but would never turn it on anyway

Very few people who play ISP, proportionally, actually complain about it. Until it becomes a significant problem for the people who actually play, it will stay CP; that way, the people who want it have it, and the people who don't never have to use it. You know, even forgetting that these are just recommendations, and not set in stone.

@ Sleepy God: The Pitfall? Is this a good "I want to talk about it", or a bad "I want to talk about it"? lol

 

[AtrixWolfe]

You do realize that the Landmaster can carry you OUT of the respawn platform, right?

Yea, but only after you are solid. Which is during the last 5 - 10% of time of invulnerability.
Just before then force drop from the platform and start the running game. Some chars, aka pikachu, are immune to power boosting.
Anyway, I see now it as I had hoped and am hoping, it does not add balance to the game, just shifts it around in all likelyhood. Still. I agree with what Jack said, it is not about removing luck, as that is in any game no matter what. (That move that guy did 1000 times robotically, he messes up on that 1001th time, etc). I believe with brawl they tried to make it LESS competitive or close the gap at least by introducing tripping on random, and other changes like knock outs are at generally higher %'s. Throws seems toned down yet again in distance of the throw. (64 it was valid ringouts at 80 to 100%s. Some chars in melee can even do that, brawl it is impossible with most chars to get a ringout with throw). In any case, I thank anyone and everyone for their input on it. I still do maintain a belief however, nothing is unbeatable except maybe one ringout by sonic vs a controlled player. Not a thing you can do with it. Falco is pretty hard to get away from as well though you can "mitigate" it to one ring out instead of 2 all the time if you start with lower/mid % when he gets the smash ball. Is it game breaking? I dunno. I am guessing it at least makes it alot more about that than we like.

 

[Technologikall]

Personally I think that Metal Box should be nautral. Why is it CP anyway? Because it can spawn on someones attack accidentally activating it?

Aside from that that will almost never happen, it is not such a big deal. Metal Box isn't like the Shrooms that interupt your actions, and neither will it kill you or cause damage like bombs. And everything else, as stated in the OP, cancels each other out in R/R to make it a good balanced item.

So IMO Metal Box should be neutral.