Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

Everybody is a spacey main, they just don't know it yet

 

[Purpletuce]

It really is upsetting how tempting it is. They're so easy to pick up and get good results with.

 

[FourStar]

Give me a good reason why should we trust you?

1. i main pika so talk to a lot of current and former pikas
2. Out of all the former pikas i talk to, 90% of them switch to fox and falco because they feel pika is too limited
3. Many of the players don't really play anymore and there are very little pikas left so really they aren't really relevant to the current metagame
4. these same former pikas see immediate success with changing too fox and falco
if non of these reasons made you change your opinion then whatever it doesn't matter that much

 

[Bones0]

1. i main pika so talk to a lot of current and former pikas
2. Out of all the former pikas i talk to, 90% of them switch to fox and falco because they feel pika is too limited
3. Many of the players don't really play anymore and there are very little pikas left so really they aren't really relevant to the current metagame
4. these same former pikas see immediate success with changing too fox and falco
if non of these reasons made you change your opinion then whatever it doesn't matter that much

I'd like to see some evidence for #4. I'm sure the other 3 are true.

 

[Divinokage]

I'd like to see some evidence for #4. I'm sure the other 3 are true.

They might be but it still doesn't really answer my question. I could just say "Hey Bones, now that we have talked, I now have a more truthful opinion just because we have conversation regularly."

 

[FourStar]

I'd like to see some evidence for #4. I'm sure the other 3 are true.

i didn't mean tournament wise they did better but they did get kills off easier. you know what i mean?

 

[Bones0]

i didn't mean tournament wise they did better but they did get kills off easier. you know what i mean?

No.

 

[Jiv]

It makes sense bones0 >_> don't be a jerk

 

[Bones0]

People around these parts tend to equate performing "better" with getting further in tournaments.

 

[knightpraetor]

#2 was hilarious.

2. Out of all the former pikas i talk to, 90% of them switch to fox and falco because they feel pika is too limited

out of people who switched characters, 90% of them felt their char was too limited. What a surprising bit of news!

Pika is really hard to judge. I feel like he has the potential to break into top six, but he isn't really a char friendly for new people to pick up. I feel like he should be placed higher...but as long as sheik exists that probably won't ever happen. Problem with judging pika off pika mains if that every pika main you meet is in the bottom 50% of players, aka "The Abyss of Poorly Spaced Continuous Aggro"

i wish someone in top 20 who is just another fox/falco main would just switch to pika so we could see whether someone other than axe can play him. Well, I personally believe, but no one will be convinced it's anything but player skill unless more pika mains appear.

Also Bones, I've been hiding from the boards cause I'm worried I'm in some bizarre alternate reality. I agreed with 3/4 of the last posts of yours that I saw, so I'm definitely not in the real world. Going to have to find my way back home.

i still owe you 2 MM but it may be a long time before I see you. Not dodging, just busy with real life and work. I'm probably going to a tourney mid-july in sova, so i'll try to hit you up in july sometime. Need more peach vs falco practice

 

[FourStar]

People around these parts tend to equate performing "better" with getting further in tournaments.

and that's not what i meant at all. all i was saying is that these people were able to combo and get KO faster and easier

 

[Bones0]

and that's not what i meant at all. all i was saying is that these people were able to combo and get KO faster and easier

They probably also get comboed and gimped harder. You can point out what areas people improve in when they switch from one character to another (when I switch from Falco to Marth, my grab game gets way better!), but if their results are basically the same, then it doesn't seem to be of much relevance, and you certainly can't say they are overall better.

 

[FourStar]

They probably also get comboed and gimped harder. You can point out what areas people improve in when they switch from one character to another (when I switch from Falco to Marth, my grab game gets way better!), but if their results are basically the same, then it doesn't seem to be of much relevance, and you certainly can't say they are overall better.

pshhhh i don't even know how they place. it really doesn't matter to me.

 

[t3h Icy]

DJN sometimes plays Pikachu, and Pikachad is still a very solid Pikachu player. He beat Shroomed at FC and placed 9th. Obviously not the same level of success as Axe, but other Pikachus aren't completely non-existant.

 

[john!]

define "limited"

if you mean technically limited... pika is one of the LEAST limited low tier characters. that character can do amazing things if you have sufficient tech skill.

if you mean limited by being a bad character... well that much should be obvious. low tier mains have it rough lol. the game only gets easier as you move up the tier list.

 

[FourStar]

define "limited"

if you mean technically limited... pika is one of the LEAST limited low tier characters. that character can do amazing things if you have sufficient tech skill.

if you mean limited by being a bad character... well that much should be obvious. low tier mains have it rough lol. the game only gets easier as you move up the tier list.

idk what all the players mean by limited but the general consensus was that pikachu was just KO'ed to easily and his aerials didn't inflict much damage. plus he has close range attacks which limits (see that word again) him from getting in. now of course there are ways to get around these problems but for a lot of people its not worth the trouble and time to figure it out.

 

[Jayk]

Pikachu is pretty bad, if you switch to maining a better character you would logically do better, assuming your skill with both characters is the same.
But that doesn't really mean anything. Probably more people could play well with him, but why would they? It seems as if most good players gravitate towards the good characters, as would make sense.

So that could mean Pikachu is underrepresented...
But are there really more Ganons, or Samuses, or Marios, or even Docs then there are Pikachus?

 

[FourStar]

the reasons why people play pikachu is because:
1. he has the strongest upsmash in the game
2. his uair gimping can combo and make him a threat off stage
3. his superb recovery with the skull bach and quick attack
4. his nair is pretty useful
5. his tilts are pretty high priority making it hard for people to grab ledges
6. thunder is a good KO finishing move

 

[john!]

7. he is cute

 

[Xyzz]

8. He's the only character I own a plushie of? :D

 

[FourStar]

yes yes those reasons too :D actually i played him mainly cuz i loved pokemon and when i started getting competitive i just couldn't let go of him

 

[Theftz22]

All the mid-tiers are very under-represented.

 

[Strong Badam]

8. He's the only character I own a plushie of? :D

why don't you have 8 dk plushies like i do

 

[Divinokage]

Because he's not at the level of smash maniac he needs to be.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Like if you have 0 plushies and are proud of it

 

[KirbyKaze]

The mid tiers are represented about as much as they should be for how playable they are.

 

[Strong Badam]

aka almost not at all

 

[FourStar]

most of us mid to low tiers are pretty stubborn and don't want to give up our mid to low tier character for some stupid reason haha. but hey if you win then its fine

 

[Kimimaru]

I don't think that's the reason. I think they're not giving up their characters because there are probably no other characters that match their playstyles just as well. This applies to me, at least. Besides, we need more character diversity in a metagame where we see the same 3-5 characters almost every match.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There are many reasons to play this game. Being the best player is not a goal shared by everyone - in fact, despite how competitive I was (and may become again in time but we will see) it was never something I truly aspired for (I had different goals). In a lot of cases, low tier players have a sense of loyalty that drives them - not surprising given this game's roster. Consequently, many low tier players want to develop or represent the character that most resonates with them at a sentimental or nostalgic level. Or in some cases the character clicks with them on a really deep level for initially intangible reasons that eventually can develop into a very unique yet cohesive and logical outlook on the game, gained through understanding it through this obscure yet wonderful character that just speaks to the player - this kind of thing is what allows wonders like Taj's Mewtwo to exist and seemingly defy the list itself. And not only should these things be encouraged but I truly feel this kind of intangible connectivity and sentimental devotion are really good and healthy for the game.

That said, most people want to win. And although there is an advantage to obscurity, in a game this old it is outweighed by things that make the prospect of maining a poor character daunting. And it's understandable. One might wonder how much a weak character can be grown after the game's been out so long. In contrast, more optimistic players in this area can find it frustrating developing things alone, with limited useful criticism. The lack of preexisting information available can make the character hard to get into or difficult to push past plateaus with.

Given all these factors and more, it's pretty clear why I normally face 3+ notable Falcos in a given regional level bracket run and 0 characters lower than mid (I count Luigi and Samus as mid). And don't underestimate how important information and an active player population is. Being able to ask questions and get answers (and reference resources) give new recruits a ton of comfort. Fox's popularity is largely because so much information at any level is available on him.

 

[Xyzz]

why don't you have 8 dk plushies like i do

a) not cute,
b) DK sucks

 

[FourStar]

everybody loves pikachu. if you don't you probably don't play pokemon

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hate Pikachu and I've played Pokemon for many years. The anime killed my ability to love that vermin.

 

[FourStar]

I hate Pikachu and I've played Pokemon for many years. The anime killed my ability to love that vermin.

awww....... a little bit of me died

 

[Xyzz]

I've been successfully avoiding to view even one episode of that anime :D

Friend of mine watched one of the movies when we were drinking at his place because he wanted to check something and then just left it running. I can't remember a single minute though (was rather preoccupied with other things, and I can't multitask for **** :D), so I would say that doesn't count.


So I can just enjoy Pikachu for being a rather cute Pokemon from the games (:

 

[Senortesta]

Sveet, do you think you'l be done with the tier list before Evo?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Is that an important benchmark for you?

 

[VoiD-]

would be nice to have a more recent list for any new people, even considering it probably hasn't changed that much since the last one

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For all intents and purposes, the last one is accurate. Most of the changes in 2013 are hair splitters

 

[MountainGoat]

I mean if everyone went through the effort of voting we might as well put up the new list. Anyone could have counted up the votes by now and figured it out. At least give us that, its okay if all your interactive stuff isn't ready.