Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I stopped reading here. Nowhere did I even mention the phrase dash speed. I said speed. Speed means falling speed, air speed, ground speed, attack speed, animation speeds like jumping and l-canceling, auto canceling, and so on. Being slow in an area is bad. Being fast is always good.

Therefore I will assume whatever the rest of that post was is wrong or masturbatory because you aren't making any points against a strawman.

Sometimes I wonder about you Bones.

If you hadn't stopped reading there you would have known that he did take all those things into account over the course of his post.

 

[Varist]

If you hadn't stopped reading there you would have known that he did take all those things into account over the course of his post.

It doesn't matter, arguments founded on strawmans are pretty worthless no matter how you look at it.

 

[Papa+Stone]

^ that is a strawman lol. And get that reddittastic bs out of here you should know better melvin.

Also you guys are either overrating luigi and pikachu, underrating mario and ganon, or just generally underrating mid tiers in general the gap isnt really that big anyway. Plus i feel like mario is better than people give him credit he just doesnt have the results yet especially since players migrate to doc more

 

[Varist]

^ that is a strawman lol. And get that reddittastic bs out of here you should know better melvin.

Also you guys are either overrating luigi and pikachu, underrating mario and ganon, or just generally underrating mid tiers in general the gap isnt really that big anyway. Plus i feel like mario is better than people give him credit he just doesnt have the results yet especially since players migrate to doc more

Google could probably help you find out what a strawman is. This is smashboards, not reddit. Melvin is South Park-tier.

I'm not underrating mid tiers, I said Pikachu and Luigi are better than Ganon and Mario. I don't know where you got "underrating mid tiers" from.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Come on man youre ignoring his stuff just because of 1 thing he said if that isnt a redditful I dont know what is. If i were asked id say that you were excretibg reddit all over this place but experienced redditeers may notice the subtleties more than i do. Also they never say mdlvin in south park youre probably thinking of family guy. Theyre similar but different.

And i wasnt talking to you only about the mid tiers you narcissist.

 

[Divinokage]

The chances to get more than 17th place at the biggest tournament with any mid tiers are extremely low... Even Mango's Mario didn't get past that. Proof enough that you can't really rank any mid tier but then Ganon has good matchups vs Samus, Luigi and Mario.. Hmmm... Perhaps even Pikachu but Im not very experienced in that matchup, I just know Ganon has a CG. lol.

 

[Bones0]

I stopped reading here. Nowhere did I even mention the phrase dash speed. I said speed. Speed means falling speed, air speed, ground speed, attack speed, animation speeds like jumping and l-canceling, auto canceling, and so on. Being slow in an area is bad. Being fast is always good.

Therefore I will assume whatever the rest of that post was is wrong or masturbatory because you aren't making any points against a strawman.

Sometimes I wonder about you Bones.

Nowhere in the part that you read did I mention dash speeds either. You simply assumed I was talking about dash speeds without reading the rest of my post. You didn't even have the common sense to read the rest of the paragraph. Yes, being fast is always better than being slow, but being strong is better than being weak, and having long ranged hitboxes is better than having short ranged hitboxes. You didn't say being faster is always better in your original post because that is obvious. You claimed fast characters vs. slow characters can WIN THE NEUTRAL GAME EVERY TIME. My response did not create a strawman because, if anything, I underplayed the stupidity of your statement. I could have just treated it literally and pointed to some ridiculous example like DJ Nintendo's Bowser getting touches on Leffen's Fox on DL. But I didn't strawman you. Instead, I addressed the idea behind your claim, which was that speed was the predominant factor in determining a character's viability. If you aren't going to read responses to your post, then I'm not sure why you even bother posting at all. You look like a naive little kid when you speak very "matter of fact"ly about a complex game and ignore anyone who disagrees.

 

[Varist]

I'm smart enough to know what you're referencing when you bring up Fox and Falcon. They have the fastest dash speeds in the game. You distorted my use of the word "speed" to reference only a character's dash speed. You said that I was wrong because those two characters don't have the best neutral games. I'm not stupid Bones, don't try to play me like a *****.

You claimed fast characters vs. slow characters can WIN THE NEUTRAL GAME EVERY TIME.

No I didn't Bones. Why are you trying to create my side of the argument? I have an argument already, you can't pretend like you're making solid points when you're not arguing against anything I've said, you're arguing against things that you're saying.

Calling me a "naive little kid" isn't going to give you some higher ground just by virtue of stating it. I'll show you. Bones, you are the worst poster on the boards when you act this dense. See, I just did it there, and it didn't change anything except take away from the discussion.

Thank you for the responses Bones.

 

[Xyzz]

Speed is just the best quality to have in this game because you will win the neutral game off of it every time if you use it properly.

This is poorly worded then.



personally I think being speedy is obviously amazing everywhere in this game, but surely there are characters that can't be counted out even in terms of winning in the neutral position just because they are slow. E.g. Falco isn't too fast horizontally, and his common approaches do take time to set up (I see few people do runup shine with him ), but most people would say that his neutral game is amongst the best, just because of that gun he carries (which isn't particularly speedy either))

 

[Papa+Stone]

The chances to get more than 17th place at the biggest tournament with any mid tiers are extremely low... Even Mango's Mario didn't get past that. Proof enough that you can't really rank any mid tier but then Ganon has good matchups vs Samus, Luigi and Mario.. Hmmm... Perhaps even Pikachu but Im not very experienced in that matchup, I just know Ganon has a CG. lol.

Mario and luigi beat or at least go even with ganon and mangos mario wasnt hardcore enough to succeed back then. He still doesnt pysh his mario enough these days. We just have to wait for a rookie to level up some more. Axe shroomed and abate are all capable of having results like those and better.

Also @ the other guys here luigi does terrible in neutral its probably a bigger weakness than his recovery

 

[Varist]

For me it was perfectly worded. It's expected that others will not understand until I elaborate. I would prefer I get asked that question rather than have short-sighted arguments crafted against points I never raised.

 

[Varist]

Mario and luigi beat or at least go even with ganon and mangos mario wasnt hardcore enough to succeed back then. He still doesnt pysh his mario enough these days. We just have to wait for a rookie to level up some more. Axe shroomed and abate are all capable of having results like those and better.

Also @ the other guys here luigi does terrible in neutral its probably a bigger weakness than his recovery

If Luigi performed terribly in the neutral game he would be a poor character, but I am saying that he has great potential because I believe he actually does not do terribly in the neutral game. I can see him being beat out by Fox, Falco, Marth, Falcon and Sheik. But I think he does better in the neutral game than Mario and Ganondorf.

That's because of his speed of course. Which is why I believe he is better than those characters in a general sense.

 

[Upke]

Thanks for entertaining me during psych class, you guys.

 

[Divinokage]

Mario and luigi beat or at least go even with ganon and mangos mario wasnt hardcore enough to succeed back then. He still doesnt pysh his mario enough these days. We just have to wait for a rookie to level up some more. Axe shroomed and abate are all capable of having results like those and better.

Also @ the other guys here luigi does terrible in neutral its probably a bigger weakness than his recovery

You are telling ME, Mario/Luigi beat Ganon? Lol.. Proof enough that you underestimate Ganon.

Ganon can kill pretty much any character with just a few hits, his punish game is retardedly strong.

 

[Xyzz]

For me it was perfectly worded. It's expected that others will not understand until I elaborate. I would prefer I get asked that question rather than have short-sighted arguments crafted against points I never raised.

If you already expect that others don't understand the initial statement, why don't you go ahead and preemptively elaborate just as you bring up the initial sentence?
Most people don't stop reading the instance they come across something questionable and proceed to ridicule you for it / ask for clarification (depending on their personality), but much rather would proceed to see if the next paragraph offers just that.

 

[Papa+Stone]

If Luigi performed terribly in the neutral game he would be a poor character, but I am saying that he has great potential because I believe he actually does not do terribly in the neutral game. I can see him being beat out by Fox, Falco, Marth, Falcon and Sheik. But I think he does better in the neutral game than Mario and Ganondorf.

That's because of his speed of course. Which is why I believe he is better than those characters in a general sense.

He wins because of his spacing game and kill moves. Hes mid tier because he has no way to convert to them, wavedash is underwelhming because of its startup time, and easily gimpable recovery.

 

[Papa+Stone]

You are telling ME, Mario/Luigi beat Ganon? Lol.. Proof enough that you underestimate Ganon.

Ganon can kill pretty much any character with just a few hits, his punish game is retardedly strong.

Mario combos ganon and link harder than anyone lol hes like a falcon in that MU. If you disagree then MM me, meet me at apex 2014 ill bring snacks and clean controllers

 

[Varist]

I believe Ganon is too slow to beat out players who use faster characters more than 50% of the time in the neutral game. You may argue that mathematically Ganon does not need to win the neutral game even 50% or 40% of the time because of how great you believe his punishes to be. There is merit in that statement.

However, I believe that as the opponent's proficiency with their faster character grows, Ganon will find himself too slow to beat out the faster character often enough in the neutral game to mathematically keep up in punishment.

In sum, because I believe faster characters' play ceiling is higher than slower characters' ceilings, over time proficiently-used fast characters will outclass slow characters severely.

 

[Divinokage]

Mario combos ganon and link harder than anyone lol hes like a falcon in that MU. If you disagree then MM me, meet me at apex 2014 ill bring snacks and clean controllers

Mario combos Ganon well? What kind of DI your opponent are doing? lol... I'll MM obviously. I'm not gonna be beat by a Mario that's for sure.

Varist, it's true I was able to finally keep up with Unknown last weekend, you really only need a few hits and there's always tons of traps you can do with WD back, CC or pre-emptively counter-attack to gain the momentum with one hit. Anyone should die with 2 reads as Ganon if you do it right.

 

[Varist]

Mario combos Ganon well? What kind of DI your opponent are doing? lol... I'll MM obviously. I'm not gonna be beat by a Mario that's for sure.

Varist, it's true I was able to finally keep up with Unknown last weekend, you really only need a few hits and there's always tons of traps you can do with WD back, CC or pre-emptively counter-attack to gain the momentum with one hit. Anyone should die with 2 reads as Ganon if you do it right.

I hope for the sake of Ganon that he never finds his bag of tricks empty and always has something to surprise faster opponents with in the neutral game. But I predict that will not be the case. Players will gain more matchup knowledge about Ganon the more good Ganons they play and eventually fast characters will be able to simply bait and punish slow characters with brute force frame advantage.

If you already expect that others don't understand the initial statement, why don't you go ahead and preemptively elaborate just as you bring up the initial sentence?
Most people don't stop reading the instance they come across something questionable and proceed to ridicule you for it / ask for clarification (depending on their personality), but much rather would proceed to see if the next paragraph offers just that.

I missed this post.

I don't go ahead and fully elaborate for the simple reason that I post those statements for posterity and I'm not going to waste effort doing a write-up if no one is interested. Most people ought to understand the concept that speed is king to begin with and if they disagree it's no concern of mine unless they have a really interesting perspective.

To address what you said earlier, Falco is very unique in the respect that he wins neutral off of using a move that is so heinously broken it makes his middle of the road horizontal speed seem like less of a downfall than it actually should be.

 

[Papa+Stone]

I believe Ganon is too slow to beat out players who use faster characters more than 50% of the time in the neutral game. You may argue that mathematically Ganon does not need to win the neutral game even 50% or 40% of the time because of how great you believe his punishes to be. There is merit in that statement.

However, I believe that as the opponent's proficiency with their faster character grows, Ganon will find himself too slow to beat out the faster character often enough in the neutral game to mathematically keep up in punishment.

In sum, because I believe faster characters' play ceiling is higher than slower characters' ceilings, over time proficiently-used fast characters will outclass slow characters severely.

Lol speed isnt the only thing that matters. Plus mario has a good wavedash and decent dashdance and ganon has a good platform waveland game so its not like theyre immobile either. If anything falco is slower than both mario and doc but this isnt too big of a weakness

 

[Papa+Stone]

Mario combos Ganon well? What kind of DI your opponent are doing? lol... I'll MM obviously. I'm not gonna be beat by a Mario that's for sure.

Varist, it's true I was able to finally keep up with Unknown last weekend, you really only need a few hits and there's always tons of traps you can do with WD back, CC or pre-emptively counter-attack to gain the momentum with one hit. Anyone should die with 2 reads as Ganon if you do it right.

I think you will find that my mario strikes hard and true. Ganon is helpless against marios backflips

 

[Bones0]

I'm smart enough to know what you're referencing when you bring up Fox and Falcon. They have the fastest dash speeds in the game. You distorted my use of the word "speed" to reference only a character's dash speed. You said that I was wrong because those two characters don't have the best neutral games. I'm not stupid Bones, don't try to play me like a *****.

Yeah, they have the fastest dash speeds, but they also have two of the fastest falling speeds, fastest jump speeds (both jumpsquat and vertical acceleration), and Fox has one of the lowest startup movesets in the whole game. YOU are the one assuming I am talking about dash speed when I never said that at all. If you wouldn't include those two characters in your definition of characters with high "speeds", then what characters would you consider "faster"?

No I didn't Bones. Why are you trying to create my side of the argument? I have an argument already, you can't pretend like you're making solid points when you're not arguing against anything I've said, you're arguing against things that you're saying.

Calling me a "naive little kid" isn't going to give you some higher ground just by virtue of stating it. I'll show you. Bones, you are the worst poster on the boards when you act this dense. See, I just did it there, and it didn't change anything except take away from the discussion.

Thank you for the responses Bones.

You didn't say "fast characters vs. slow characters can WIN THE NEUTRAL GAME EVERY TIME"?

Is this NOT a direct quote from your post?

Speed is just the best quality to have in this game because you will win the neutral game off of it every time if you use it properly.

You keep claiming I'm strawmanning you, but you have failed to clarify how I misrepresented your side of the argument.

 

[Varist]

Lol speed isnt the only thing that matters. Plus mario has a good wavedash and decent dashdance and ganon has a good platform waveland game so its not like theyre immobile either. If anything falco is slower than both mario and doc but this isnt too big of a weakness

I don't believe that speed is the only thing that matters. You would be wrong to think that other elements don't come into play.

I believe speed is the most important element of a character. Hence I believe that Luigi is better than Mario and Ganon because, not only does he have competency in all of the necessary areas of the game, but he is also faster than those characters to boot.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Strawman is a disgusting reddit word. Take it away. Plus people need to take care to not say real talk either theyre letting their game grumpsism ooze out uncontrolled

 

[Papa+Stone]

I don't believe that speed is the only thing that matters. You would be wrong to think that other elements don't come into play.

I believe speed is the most important element of a character. Hence I believe that Luigi is better than Mario and Ganon because, not only does he have competency in all of the necessary areas of the game, but he is also faster than those characters to boot.

Luigis speed is overrated. He can cover a lot of ground fast but he moves in the air slow, falls slow, and his dashdance is too small to cover the startup of his wavedash. His wavedash is good and carries him as a character but it cant make up for the precission you get out of a dashdance. The startup for his wavedash is actually a weakness and since he kind of uses his wavedash as a replacement for a dashdance, then you could say his dashdance is slower to control than other characters. Luigi doesnt use his speed in the same way a fox or falcon would. He doesnt have the ability to quickly change directions and manuever around other characters offense like fox or falcon

 

[Varist]

Yeah, they have the fastest dash speeds, but they also have two of the fastest falling speeds, fastest jump speeds (both jumpsquat and vertical acceleration), and Fox has one of the lowest startup movesets in the whole game. YOU are the one assuming I am talking about dash speed when I never said that at all. If you wouldn't include those two characters in your definition of characters with high "speeds", then what characters would you consider "faster"?



You didn't say "fast characters vs. slow characters can WIN THE NEUTRAL GAME EVERY TIME"?

Is this NOT a direct quote from your post?



You keep claiming I'm strawmanning you, but you have failed to clarify how I misrepresented your side of the argument.

I'm not going to bother reading your mind anymore just so you can tell me I was wrong to protect an argument.

And no Bones, that's not what I said, and that's not a direct quote. You deleted part of my statement to twist its meaning. I don't know why you did it because I said I would stop trying to read your mind. But you did it and that makes everything that you say not worth reading.

All I've done in my earlier responses to you, and this response here, was clarify how you are misrepresenting my argument. I'm sorry that you can't understand what I'm writing.

Thank you again for the replies, Bones.

 

[Divinokage]

I hope for the sake of Ganon that he never finds his bag of tricks empty and always has something to surprise faster opponents with in the neutral game. But I predict that will not be the case. Players will gain more matchup knowledge about Ganon the more good Ganons they play and eventually fast characters will be able to simply bait and punish slow characters with brute force frame advantage..

Lol, if only it was that simple huh? There's always something you can do to counter-attack. =P If Melee was that busted to begin with, I'd think anyone would've found a reliable one-time strategy that would shut down Ganon completely. And yet many people are always surprised at what he can do. His punish game makes anyone piss their pants.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Just wait until you see my mario hell give you a urinary infection

 

[Xyzz]

People need to understand that the wrong form of argumentation (strawmans or logical fallacies or whatever) doesn't necessarily mean that the underlying statement is incorrect. They should always try to address that as well (unless of course the post lacks any factual argument ).

On the other hand, this thread wouldn't nearly be as fun that way :D


@Varist: So we have one example already? How about Marth, who - while he does have good run speed - has super bad start up times on his moves and still does okay, because his grabrange makes no sense at all and his other moves are kind of hilariously far reaching as well?

 

[Varist]

Luigis speed is overrated. He can cover a lot of ground fast but he moves in the air slow, falls slow, and his dashdance is too small to cover the startup of his wavedash. His wavedash is good and carries him as a character but it cant make up for the precission you get out of a dashdance. The startup for his wavedash is actually a weakness and since he kind of uses his wavedash as a replacement for a dashdance, then you could say his dashdance is slower to control than other characters. Luigi doesnt use his speed in the same way a fox or falcon would. He doesnt have the ability to quickly change directions and manuever around other characters offense like fox or falcon

Yes, I agree with a lot of these points and that's why he's not regarded as high tier. He has a limited neutral game because he is only fast on the ground, and making the opponent play your game and taking advantage of that speed on the ground is what good Luigi players are doing and it's helping them get these placements. The matter of wavedashes being inferior to dashing as a form of ground mobility definitely has its merit and it's another limiting factor of Luigi but I believe we can be far more accurate with wavedashing than we currently are and that will only serve to increase the strength of Luigi as a general character.

I also hate the word strawman but it's useful because everyone knows what it is and has attached a negative connotation to it, so if I point out that someone is setting up a strawman it should signal to them that their argument is invalid as a response to mine and they need to come up with relevant points or concede.

@Xyzz

I don't think the start up times on his moves are too bad. There are faster moves out there but Marth is balanced in that his marginally slower speed is made up for by his generous range.

I don't want you to think that without high-tier speed a character is bad. It's like distributing stat points in an RPG. Marth has less speed in certain areas, but bloated range works against that problem to make his neutral game tighter.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Marth doesnt win because of his neutral game, his wins because of his punish game. People beat spacies for outplaying them outside of the neutral unless its like sheik but i know nothing about her. Also people have tried to tame luigis wavedash for years, and have decided that his dashdance is far better as a precise tool than shortened wavedashes. All modern luigis do dashdances at sone point

 

[BTmoney]

Marth doesnt win because of his neutral game, his wins because of his punish game. People beat spacies for outplaying them outside of the neutral unless its like sheik but i know nothing about her. Also people have tried to tame luigis wavedash for years, and have decided that his dashdance is far better as a precise tool than shortened wavedashes. All modern luigis do dashdances at sone point

Marth's neutral game is amazing

And that last point, what are you even talking about?

 

[Bones0]

I'm not going to bother reading your mind anymore just so you can tell me I was wrong to protect an argument.

And no Bones, that's not what I said, and that's not a direct quote. You deleted part of my statement to twist its meaning. I don't know why you did it because I said I would stop trying to read your mind. But you did it and that makes everything that you say not worth reading.

All I've done in my earlier responses to you, and this response here, was clarify how you are misrepresenting my argument. I'm sorry that you can't understand what I'm writing.

Thank you again for the replies, Bones.

I can't decide if you're trolling or if you're really this much of a ******. It WAS a direct quote, and you can hardly accuse me of taking it out of context because it was its own paragraph without any text preceding it. The closest you've come to explaining how I strawmanned you was by ASSUMING I interpreted your usage of speed to mean "dash speed" which is obviously not true if you'd read more than once sentence of my post.

 

[Varist]

I can't decide if you're trolling or if you're really this much of a ******. It WAS a direct quote, and you can hardly accuse me of taking it out of context because it was its own paragraph without any text preceding it. The closest you've come to explaining how I strawmanned you was by ASSUMING I interpreted your usage of speed to mean "dash speed" which is obviously not true if you'd read more than once sentence of my post.

Please stop bothering to argue with me if you're going to act this way. It really wasn't fun for me to begin with.

 

[BTmoney]

I can't decide if you're trolling or if you're really this much of a ******.

lololol

(bones is mostly right though)

 

[Papa+Stone]

Like who cares about marth anyway. Not me yo.
And I interpretted what varist said about controlling luigis wavedash as controlling the distances he can get out of it

 

[Habefiet]

For me it was perfectly worded. It's expected that others will not understand until I elaborate. I would prefer I get asked that question rather than have short-sighted arguments crafted against points I never raised.

"I say things that I expect others to misunderstand, then get mad when they attempt to interpret my deliberately unclear statements rather than asking me to speak clearly"

Is this real life

Marth's neutral game is great

Luigi's pretty neat

Kirby would be low-mid tier if he could start each stock with Falco's laser

Blacktician makes good posts

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We aren't close enough to the skill ceiling to make statements like "Ganon is too slow to deal with top tiers"
Even the top 5 get into each other's heads hardcore and completely **** each other up just through reads, rather than abusing how the MU should play out on paper; Mango's DD > Rest on Armada, anyone?

Melee still has a long way to go before we understand the game well enough to make mind games/reading comprehension as unimportant as you are making it out to be, Varist.

 

[.Ðempt]

Mario combos ganon and link harder than anyone lol hes like a falcon in that MU. If you disagree then MM me, meet me at apex 2014 ill bring snacks and clean controllers

I'll bring the TP, cause you're about to get **** on.

Seriously though, are you not aware that Kage is the best Ganon main on the planet? If you're gunna MM him for the lulz, that's one thing, but to MM him to prove a point that you aren't going to prove for ****, is another.

I agree with Grim on this whole "debate". We have yet to see characters perfectly mastered by anyone, and we more than likely never will. The game at a higher level is more focused on its mental aspect rather than it's technical one. Match-ups matter less, and less at a higher level of play.