Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Divinokage]

Max, you aren't crazy, I know exactly what you are talking about. <3 I think of all these things daily.

 

[Max?]

Kage, we definitely need to chill the next time you are in NY.

 

[Kal]

Let's keep the pseudoscience discussion to bugging pedestrians on the street. Right now, I'm interested in seeing what people consider "low tier." Frankly, I think DK is too good to be low tier, but that is strongly influenced by the fact that my low tiers are Roy and Pichu.

 

[john!]

sure is clueless hippie in here

 

[Max?]

sure is clueless hippie in here

I'm actually a college graduate who has a 5-figure salary job out of college. I haven't done drugs (unless you count pot) in over 5 years.

 

[Strife]

E-tier and below I'm pretty sure is the consensus of low-tier.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Let's keep the pseudoscience discussion to bugging pedestrians on the street. Right now, I'm interested in seeing what people consider "low tier." Frankly, I think DK is too good to be low tier, but that is strongly influenced by the fact that my low tiers are Roy and Pichu.

Zelda and lower would probably bring a greater diversity, yeah. Link, Young Link, and DK **** on the ones below them.

DK v. Roy is so hard

 

[Strife]

Zelda and lower would probably bring a greater diversity, yeah. Link, Young Link, and DK **** on the ones below them.

DK v. Roy is so hard

It's kinda unfair not to include the Links in low-tier. The characters are not that good and doing a disservice to Link mains.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I like this guy.

Psychedelics are like a squeegee for your Third Eye. They help you realize that this constructed man-made reality we live in is superficial and for lack of a better word, FAKE. But then you also realize that everyone in the world is indoctrinated into thinking that facebook/ipods/celebrity gossip/sports and all the other trivial distractions our society has to keep us occupied from paying attention to what matters, is real and important.

You also realize that most people will never truly be able to understand what you've seen and experienced, and talking about it will make people think you're nuts. So, you put on the suit and tie and play the game just like everyone else.

There is no room for the things that actually matter in this dystopian/ipad infested world; love, music, art, nature.

/Spiritual rant that will make people think I'm crazy

You guys should really listen to Bill Hicks, it could do you a lot of good.

Yeah, you sound crazy. But you're also completely correct (in my opinion, anyways). Go figure.

 

[Max?]

Yeah, you sound crazy. But you're also completely correct (in my opinion, anyways). Go figure.

Enlightenment comes at a very high price.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm actually a college graduate who has a 5-figure salary job out of college. I haven't done drugs (unless you count pot) in over 5 years.

glad to hear it. Im basically the same, except still in college.

my opinion of you just went up 5 points; not only do i agree with your post but i now know you aren't just some druggy hippie who will never use the knowledge practically.

 

[Max?]

Druggy hippies, may in fact be the single worst thing on this planet.

 

[AXE 09]

axe when you get the chance I'd love to hear why =)

I've just always felt that Mario has much better priority moves and zoning options than Pikachu. To stop moves and begin combos, Mario has Utilt which has pretty high priority, and for zoning he has SH Bair (and can waveland after it). His WD is good, his jabs can combo into grab/Dsmash, and his cape isn't as good as Doc's but it's still pretty useful.

Pikachu has to rely on offensive pressure, because he really doesn't have anything to stop attacks like Mario has Utilt, and he doesn't have any zoning moves like Mario's Bair. What makes Pikachu strong is his KO power, his Uair for positioning, and his recovery. However, his main weaknesses are he's easily shield stabbed, he has no moves with high priority that can stop approaches, and his approaches can be pretty easily countered unless you cross up your opponent. He "sorta" has Ftilt for zoning I guess, but it doesn't combo into anything and can be punished if you miss or if it's shielded.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and I just feel that Mario is slightly better than Pikachu is.

 

[Blistering Speed]

My predictions for Melee tiers in the foreseeable future.

- Falco's top placements drop off slightly as people are forced to exploit his minor limitations with serious consistency. People return to thinking Fox is the best.
- Fox continues, as ever, to make mediocre placements in tournament. Lovage becomes the indisputable best Fox main, widespread youtube orgasms occur.
- Marth moves above Sheik. Somewhere between Mango, PP and Mew2king (maybe Ice? probably not), one of them steps it up and starts placing and being amazing with Marth. People forget Sheik can do stuff.
- Puff drops off in tournaments, only Hungrybox places and barely breaking top 5. People are struck with instant *********** and put her back with Falcon/Peach.
- Armada molests everyone, top 3 at every major, Peach stays the same (rightfully so).
- S2j & Hax contine to be amazing, Falcon stays the same (rightfully so).
- Wobbles places awesomely at some random major, Ice Climbers stay the same (stupidly so).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've just always felt that Mario has much better priority moves and zoning options than Pikachu. To stop moves and begin combos, Mario has Utilt which has pretty high priority, and for zoning he has SH Bair (and can waveland after it). His WD is good, his jabs can combo into grab/Dsmash, and his cape isn't as good as Doc's but it's still pretty useful.

Pikachu has to rely on offensive pressure, because he really doesn't have anything to stop attacks like Mario has Utilt, and he doesn't have any zoning moves like Mario's Bair. What makes Pikachu strong is his KO power, his Uair for positioning, and his recovery. However, his main weaknesses are he's easily shield stabbed, he has no moves with high priority that can stop approaches, and his approaches can be pretty easily countered unless you cross up your opponent. He "sorta" has Ftilt for zoning I guess, but it doesn't combo into anything and can be punished if you miss or if it's shielded.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and I just feel that Mario is slightly better than Pikachu is.

Okay, that makes sense.

Mario has a better jab/CC? game too I'd say. What do you think about that?

Pikachu has a better recovery than Mario and probably a better gimping game. Do you agree? He's also faster than Mario and can abuse momentum better(going off of your offensive pressure idea). Do you agree?

I thought Pikachu would zone with Dtilt. Hm. Ftilt is legit though.

Mario sucks at killing if it's not an edgeguard while Pikachu has a very solid edgeguard game and KO power. They both have solid Fsmashes but I don't think Mario's is stronger than Pikachu's so it seems like this would be where the main argument against Mario being over Pikachu would be.

Basically, do you think Mario's worse recovery, lack of efficient KO power, and weak offensive pressure make up for his uptilt approach breaker/combo starter and zoning capabilities?

 

[Strong Badam]

DK and lower has been the standard for a while now no? Or am I completely wrong haha

Oh yeah~

 

[Warhawk]

I feel with all the justifications for Fox being number one, and that that top Fox player that can play Fox at his theoretical best level hasn't been found quite yet that Yoshi should be higher. Yoshi is another character I feel has a lot of theorized potential that hasn't been touched yet but he's 21st which just seems low to me. I don't think by any means he's top tier but I feel like that 21st is really low for him when some of the same arguments I've heard to justify Fox at top could be used for Yoshi.

 

[AXE 09]

Okay, that makes sense.

Mario has a better jab/CC? game too I'd say. What do you think about that?

Pikachu has a better recovery than Mario and probably a better gimping game. Do you agree? He's also faster than Mario and can abuse momentum better(going off of your offensive pressure idea). Do you agree?

I thought Pikachu would zone with Dtilt. Hm. Ftilt is legit though.

Mario sucks at killing if it's not an edgeguard while Pikachu has a very solid edgeguard game and KO power. They both have solid Fsmashes but I don't think Mario's is stronger than Pikachu's so it seems like this would be where the main argument against Mario being over Pikachu would be.

Basically, do you think Mario's worse recovery, lack of efficient KO power, and weak offensive pressure make up for his uptilt approach breaker/combo starter and zoning capabilities?

I basically feel that Mario has better tools for shutting out an opponent and stopping approaches than Pikachu does, and also a reliable jab for pressure and grab setups. Not to mention his cape for anti projectile camping and edgeguarding.

What mario doesn't have though is the off stage recovery, and speed for cross ups like Pikachu has. And Pikachu is better with KOing at lower percents, and gimping although I feel Mario is pretty decent at gimping himself.

My personal opinion is that Mario is only very slightly better than Pikachu. Like on a list of the best characters, I would put Mario immediately above Pika.

To answer your question more directly (I'm hoping I understood it correctly), Not saying that Mario's weaknesses aren't bad, but I think his strengths cover for his weaknesses just as well as Pikachu's strengths cover for his weaknesses. However, I just feel that Mario's strengths are slightly better than Pika's.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm okay, thanks for that. Also that's nuts you did all of it on your phone haha.

Finally, where would you put Pikachu on a tier list then? I'm not sure anymore after reading what you think haha.

 

[AXE 09]

Hm okay, thanks for that. Also that's nuts you did all of it on your phone haha.

Finally, where would you put Pikachu on a tier list then? I'm not sure anymore after reading what you think haha.

Lol! Yeah I have a lot of times on my hands haha

Well based on the definition of a tier list in the OP, I would probably either keep him where he is or put him right above Samus, since it's so heavily based on "recent, relevant tournament results". But based on my own definition of a tier list (not that I can exactly define it word for word), I would put Pikachu right under Mario (so 1 spot lower than he currently is).

I basically think of a tier list as how good a character is just based on tools the character has, potential that people have shown in the character, thinking about how good a character can be with human reaction time and human errors in mind, etc... In short, how good a character is, or has the potential to be assuming it's a human playing.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I basically think of a tier list as how good a character is just based on tools the character has, potential that people have shown in the character, thinking about how good a character can be with human reaction time and human errors in mind, etc... In short, how good a character is, or has the potential to be assuming it's a human playing.

I agree with this definition of a tier list a lot. I honestly don't think that tournament results should have as much of a bearing as they do. Tournament results do not necessarily reflect character potential.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright cool, thanks for the info dude. =)

 

[AXE 09]

Alright cool, thanks for the info dude. =)

No problem man These are all just my opinions though. I totally understand if people disagree with me lol. I've had long conversations with Taj about stuff like this and he has different opinions than I do, as do a lot of people I think. I always like hearing peoples opinions

What do you think about it, PP? I'm just curious lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not really sure what to think about it after that haha. I assumed that Pikachu's speed and KO/gimp potential was enough to cover his weaknesses and put him somewhere solid in mid tier, but you're telling me that he's barely mid tier(I think?).

I still feel somewhat inclined to say that, even if Mario could zone more effectively than Pikachu, Mario still would require more successful reads to be successful. His lower mobility causes him to drop juggles that may be easier for pikachu(Uair aside), and his low KO potential and worse edgeguarding abilities means his punishment game seems overall weaker.

Mario's CGs and Uair combos seem pretty solid and his uptilt is good for continuing juggles but these things seem very DI or trick dependent, whereas Pikachu's combos seem more guaranteed or semi-guaranteed(Uair covering most options an airborne character has=too good, or that Nair to rapid jab by the edge edgeguard setup you have....Mario has no way to force the opponent low to edgeguard easier since his Bair and Nair send the opponent upward and Fair which is hard to hit is only a meteor).


Without explaining how your posts are making me reconsider this type of information(to a degree) and it's counterexamples, this is what I think about it haha.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Wait you mean you can't have an opinion unless you give your body toxins that cause brain damage?

protip: don't talk about **** when you don't know what you're talking about.

tho you're right in the sense that you don't explicitly need psychadelics to achieve the level of enlightenment that otg is talking about. It just makes it way easier.

also max, def the realest post i've seen on this site for a while

 

[john!]

what is it about altering brain chemistry that allows you to grasp profound truths?

would you care to share these truths with those of us who aren't yet enlightened?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

protip: don't talk about **** when you don't know what you're talking about.

Wtf is this? Its ironic because in the same sentence you talk down on me you are simultaneously making yourself look ********.

 

[Strong Badam]

So like guys tier lists?

 

[AXE 09]

I'm not really sure what to think about it after that haha. I assumed that Pikachu's speed and KO/gimp potential was enough to cover his weaknesses and put him somewhere solid in mid tier, but you're telling me that he's barely mid tier(I think?).

I still feel somewhat inclined to say that, even if Mario could zone more effectively than Pikachu, Mario still would require more successful reads to be successful. His lower mobility causes him to drop juggles that may be easier for pikachu(Uair aside), and his low KO potential and worse edgeguarding abilities means his punishment game seems overall weaker.

Mario's CGs and Uair combos seem pretty solid and his uptilt is good for continuing juggles but these things seem very DI or trick dependent, whereas Pikachu's combos seem more guaranteed or semi-guaranteed(Uair covering most options an airborne character has=too good, or that Nair to rapid jab by the edge edgeguard setup you have....Mario has no way to force the opponent low to edgeguard easier since his Bair and Nair send the opponent upward and Fair which is hard to hit is only a meteor).


Without explaining how your posts are making me reconsider this type of information(to a degree) and it's counterexamples, this is what I think about it haha.

Wow, excellent post man. Thank you It's really awesome to hear your thoughts especially.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree that Mario is slightly better than Pikachu. To me at least the main concern is Mario's downthrow being very underrated. Both of them have their issues that clearly make them mid tier (to me, the biggest being no aerial kill move) and I'd rather have Mario's range and grab game than Pikachu's extra speed and better recovery. I do think they're very close though, and I'm an expert on neither. Meh, conjecture.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Let's just say Roy's better than Mario, and Pikachu and call it even eh?!?

j/k XD

Roy's fun tho ^^

 

[Battlecow]

I'm actually a college graduate who has a 5-figure salary job out of college. I haven't done drugs (unless you count pot) in over 5 years.

Wait, you realize that's not impressive, right? Not trying to rain on your parade, but you could be a burger-flipper with a community college degree in west african women's studies and fulfill those requirements.

/offtopic

 

[Strong Badam]

west african women's studies?
*dead*

 

[Battlecow]

Think I might have gotten the definition of "5 figure" wrong (I thought it meant 5 digits in your salary, like $10,000-$99,999.99 a year, but apparently it's generally taken to mean in excess of $50,000) so MB there.

I should really stop derailing good threads. Carry on, PP and Axe.

 

[Doser]

No, figure means digit so 5 figures is anywhere between 10,000 and 99,999.

 

[Max?]

Wait, you realize that's not impressive, right? Not trying to rain on your parade, but you could be a burger-flipper with a community college degree in west african women's studies and fulfill those requirements.

/offtopic

Not that I want to continue this conversation further, but I work at a Safety Consultancy Firm and majored in Environmental Science. As for how much I make, it's none of your business but I live very comfortably and I'm doing just fine in an economy which has a ton of other college graduates out of school doing nothing.

 

[Battlecow]

Wasn't implying that you weren't rolling in cheddar

Just saying that you should phrase your boasts so that they're actually, y'know, boastworthy.

SPEAKING OF TIER LISTS, Dr. Mario is a tier above mario because doctors make 6 digits and plumbers make 5.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Zelda is a tier above both of them. I bet she's got tons of cash locked away in Hyrule vaults.

 

[Max?]

I wasn't really trying to boast, just debunking the claims that I'm some poor hippie on a drug fueled rant.

 

[Aesir]

what is it about altering brain chemistry that allows you to grasp profound truths?

would you care to share these truths with those of us who aren't yet enlightened?

Different perspective I'm guessing. Completely different mind set, usually depends on how you are when under the influence I suppose.