Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Ziodyne]

Game mode bypasses most of the image processing a LCD TV does to give you the best image quality. Which results in pixels on your tv refreshing ever 2 milliseconds or so. Still, CRT TVs do that in less that 1 millisecond.

The difference is trivial. Besides, everyone should be playing on LCDs by now, no? What's the point of going on a CRT when it's basically extinct?

CRTs are the standard.

So far, every big Melee tournament run have CRTs at every setup.

The lag's not as trivial as you think

 

[Xyzz]

Two ms would be fine, it's just that even with all the processing turned off few LCDs are that fast.

 

[Jabejazz]

Two ms would be fine, it's just that even with all the processing turned off few LCDs are that fast.

This used to be true 3-4 years ago, when the average input lag on the best screens on the market was 55ms (Roughly 3.5 frames of delay).
Nowadays, even cheaper brands like LG or Insignia have some models where it'll be at worst 10ms with game mode on and most other image processing options turned off.

You can easily expect 2 ms delay (1/8 of a frame) at worst from Sony or Samsung screens. Granted, it's definitely not quite near the 0.001ms from plasma screens, but it's definitely not as terrible as you guys make it out to be.

 

[Somaiah]

good choice, melee is the best game ever <3

DUH... who here doesn't know that?

Just pick the one that feels smoothes / most responsive to you and try to focus on stuff that doesn't require you to look at the screen for visual cues. E.g. wavedashes are a good thing to learn on a LCD, because you really don't have to even look at the screen to perform them. L-cancels on the other hand are something that will probably take some adjustment on a CRT, because you probably are often relying on visuals in order to perform them (practice those anyways, because they're super important :x But maybe don't bother to learn wavelands yet).

B-b-but... I can already waveland and do tons of technical shizz already! I've only played Melee on a CRT once since I started practicing seriously, and it took me about an hour to adjust, about. That's when I started JV'5ing errbody! xD

This took place only last month, and I don't know how bad it's going to be in the transition, but it really didn't seem too awful adjusting that first time. Almost every new TV I play on in college has more/less lag, I guess I'm kinda used to adjusting lmao... it's not a good thing. I was able to do wavelands, l-cancels, and etc. after that first hour though. But adjusting like this can really only hurt me in the long run, I'll definitely keep everything you guys have said in mind.

It's because I exist, obviously. =)

Hehe. <33

 

[Xyzz]

Well, if you can adjust that easily, more power to you. I personally can't, and will always play absolutely horrible when on something that's off by more than one frame
Also: Grammar nazi time: "etc" is the abbreviation for the latin "et cetera", which means "and so on", so the "and" before it is redundant

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ken also holds that Pikachu > Marth.

Edit: I was almost 100% certain i quoted Sveet. This new forum sucks >_>

 

[BTmoney]

I don't know what non-CRTs you guys have been playing on with negligible lag lol, the difference is so bad (in my situation) that I refuse to play on anything other than a CRT. I was one of those guys who played on LCDs for years.

 

[SwiftBass]

I don't know what non-CRTs you guys have been playing on with negligible lag lol, the difference is so bad (in my situation) that I refuse to play on anything other than a CRT. I was one of those guys who played on LCDs for years.

things needed for LCD play:
19-23 inch lcd
make ratio 4:3
wii
component cables(RGB)
progressive scan on emulation start up(hold b as the wii loads melee)



congrats we can play on LCD's
only works on small LCDs.
large LCD's still lag a significant amount

why this hasn't caught on with the smaller LCD's not sure, but I have played on them for years when available

 

[Somaiah]

Just tested out playing on a CRT tonight. I could never do consistent SHFFL'd dair > shine chains with Falco on an LCD. Like, never more than two, no matter how much effort I put in (seriously!). But quite literally after one minute (yes, 60 seconds) of practice on a CRT, I was able to nail 10 in a row.

Lesson learned: LCD's suck ****.

 

[The 2t]

Yeah, the lag on anything other than a CRT is pretty bad.

I usually test it by going to the character select screen and quickly moving the control stick to the side, then comparing the "click" sound of the control stick vs when the cursor on the screen actually moves. Usually there's a significant delay. Sometimes I'll come across an LCD/Plasma where it allllmost seems to not lag and I can't quite tell (I did actually have a small 19" LCD that I played on for a good while a few years back and didn't think it lagged at the time, but the reality is that I probably just got used to playing with slight lag), but then I try it on a CRT and the difference is immediately noticeable. As in, the cursor starts moving before I even hear the click of the control stick hitting the side.

I bought a 50" plasma last year hoping I'd be able to play Melee on it, but nope oh well. I just use the old CRT for Melee, HDTV for my newer games.

 

[stelzig]

things needed for LCD play:
19-23 inch lcd
make ratio 4:3
wii
component cables(RGB)
progressive scan on emulation start up(hold b as the wii loads melee)

4:3 ratio makes a difference? Time to see if I can make my LCD lag less I guess (when I get home anyway ).
*think* I already have it on progressive scan, but might as well check that out too.

Not sure improving it will make a difference for me though. My CRT works just fine and I know it'll always be better anyway so...

 

[MountainGoat]

Tier thread
TV Discussion Thread

 

[Grunt]

Top tier: crt
Mid tier: hdtv
Low tier: toasters

 

[Bones0]

Idk man, it could go either way. I think toasters have the edge on HDTVs. Their gdlk matchup vs. bread makes them a dominating force in tournaments, and their overall spread is great (butter, jelly, peanut butter, etc).

 

[Xyzz]

At least you can get tasty food from a toaster, but bringing a LCD to a melee tourney is like taking a piano to war (pretty heavy, and offers no utility at all).

 

[SwiftBass]

you guys are funny
dat toaster love
I think alot of it is head games.
some CRTs lag if there are crappy/too big/old
its all a matter of mentality when the difference is as minute as I have made it on some LCDS

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just want a general consensus on how people weigh versatility (maybe this is the wrong word?) versus potential.

Like, Roy's dash dance is an amazing tool for first hit potential, interactivity with high quality strategies, and has obvious option trees based on whether he's hit something off it or adjusting to the opponent engaging him.

Mr. Game & Watch's grab is only set up a few ways but does devastating things. He doesn't have a great lead in for it since his WD is average, his dash dance isn't superb, d-tilt only works on FFers / not at all on airborne foes / requires jank like a jab reset vs a crouch to work, and his crouch > grab is average because of weight and traction. But it can swing whole matches if you land a bunch of them, and it's not impossible to do so.

Which does the community generally value more? Curious, not judging.

 

[lordvaati]

I think it comes down to risk vs. reward,in other words if they have more advantages then disadvantages.That's why a character like Fox is tops, since his only major weakness is being Cg fodder by most of the cast, but countered by the other 8 or so things he does so well, Mario is Middle due to having good features but just as many bad ones(and being overshadowed by his stronger counterpart doesn't help either), and Kirby is last due to only having a couple of good things but too many horrible traits.

so in other words, do their strengths usurp their weaknesses? or at least that's how I see it.

 

[Bones0]

This is probably obvious, but the scale of versatility and potential are hugely relevant when you're trying to compare the two. While Roy's DD sure is versatile, I'd much rather just have G&Ws more linear gameplay because I don't think Roy's multiple options (for lack of a better word) make up for the fact that he swings a wet noodle while G&W has plenty of meaty hitboxes.

I'd feel much more capable to respond to this with a relevant example. I also don't particularly care about whether Roy's versatility is better than G&W's potential... >_>

And I would just reply in a general sense, but I think both aspects are just too vague to try to pick one. There's so much overlap, especially in a game like Melee where "options" can be almost anything from a DD/WD spacing, attack timing, attack spacing, DI, etc. If it were something like Pokemon, it'd be much easier to compare different Pokemon side-by-side based on whether versatile or ideal movesets work best. It doesn't really work the same in Melee because having good stuff directly affects your versatility and vice versa. If you have a move you use for a DI trap so that the opponent has to decide between survival or combo DI, then how many situations it can be used in directly influences how strong it will be. The stronger an option the DI trap is, the less effective it is because the opponent anticipates it more. I guess it could also be compared to the risk/reward of teching to the ledge vs. the center. Most people would agree that predicting a tech roll to the ledge will yield a higher potential, but it's not very "versatile" because the opponent won't feel any need to roll that way unless you are routinely covering the tech roll in.

If I'm stretching these terms to much, feel free to clarify. I've never really thought about these aspects separately, so I'd be interested in isolating them in my own gameplay to experiment with some things.

 

[john!]

well, the point of this game is to hit your opponent until they die.

roy is good at hitting the opponent but bad at making them die. g&w is the opposite. which is why they are both bad characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Deep analysis is of course welcome but I'm really fishing for just gut reactions. That said, I like your post bones0.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Personally I value high kill power more in this game. I think that being able to finish off the opponent at 50% is more valuable than being able to get them up to 200% easily but kill moves being unreliable/difficult to land, so while you're trying to finish them off they are bringing your percent up and killing you.

Also I know the numbers I mentioned are completely unrealistic, I was overexaggerating in order to make my point more clear

 

[Bones0]

Deep analysis is of course welcome but I'm really fishing for just gut reactions. That said, I like your post bones0.

My gut reaction says versatility is better. I feel like as long as you have a lot of options, you can usually find a way of using them in coordination to achieve a higher potential than more straightforward tactics. It's just harder because you naturally have more opportunities to mess up. Ironically, I feel like my gameplay is very potential-based. I tend to space myself for my most powerful and reliable stuff instead of spacing myself in a variety of ways even if linking in to punishes may be more haphazard or require more "mini-approaches" from the stage control of the initial hit. I think that's normal for most players though because of how much harder it is to be versatile and do it properly.

Personally I value high kill power more in this game. I think that being able to finish off the opponent at 50% is more valuable than being able to get them up to 200% easily but kill moves being unreliable/difficult to land, so while you're trying to finish them off they are bringing your percent up and killing you.

Also I know the numbers I mentioned are completely unrealistic, I was overexaggerating in order to make my point more clear

That's not exaggeration. You just described Falcon and Marth. lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It seems Falcon doesn't have much in terms of finishers other than set-up into Fair.

 

[Bones0]

Everything combos into knee.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Knee into knee is a pretty DI proof combo in a lot of instances. Falcon's ability to long jump offstage to reach people and knee's relatively low duration make for some really dumb plays.

 

[Xyzz]

My gut feeling says potential. Probably because i'm better at combos than at the neutral game.

It seems Falcon doesn't have much in terms of finishers other than set-up into Fair.

Falcon doesn't need much in terms of finishers other than set-up into Fair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon and Marth are really similar characters.

I think versatility matters more but raw power is pretty devastating. It basically makes ICs playable.

 

[I R MarF]

If two characters generally have the same power, versatility is more important. However, if one character is on a completely different plane of power, then versatility may be almost unredeemable.

For instance, Young Link has more overall versatility than Ganon. He is faster, has disjointed range, recovery mix ups, and projectiles which can hitconfirm into nair/dair. However, Ganon is so much better at killing that he is a superior character right off the bat.

Then compare Ganon to Falcon or another character with similiar killing ability; it's clear that Ganondorf is the inferior character because he isn't versatile enough

 

[Pink Reaper]

I don't necessarily disagree with your argument of Power Vs Versatility, but it's worth saying that your comparison is flawed. Y.Link does have speed and recovery on Ganon(though not much in the recovery area) but one of the reason's ganon is so good and Y.Link is so bad is Ganon's huge range compared to Y.Links awful range. Yes Y.Link has disjointed hitboxes but he has them on a tiny ass sword leaving him with terrible range. Ganon might not have disjointed hitboxes but he's got some huge boxes on almost all of his moves meaning he can go one on one with some characters much more easily. He also has a usable grab, which Y.Link is sorely lacking lol.

It's also worth noting that you cant put too much weight into Y.Link's projectiles. He has one of the largest "Projectile Danger Zones," which is what i refer to as the area in which an enemy is too close to safely throw a projectile(or in his case throw a projectile/pull a bomb) but still too far to actively pressure with normals. It's an area that puts him hard on the defensive and it only grows with faster characters. It's not like Falco where there is an extremely small window in which he's open during a SHL and can act immediately out of it, you have to have a good amount of room before you pull a bomb or after you throw a boomerang as you can find yourself very open otherwise.

 

[Bones0]

Public Service Announcement:

Everyone must reupload their avatar so it fills the god damn box. It's driving me crazy.

Thank you.

 

[I R MarF]

I don't necessarily disagree with your argument of Power Vs Versatility, but it's worth saying that your comparison is flawed. Y.Link does have speed and recovery on Ganon(though not much in the recovery area) but one of the reason's ganon is so good and Y.Link is so bad is Ganon's huge range compared to Y.Links awful range. Yes Y.Link has disjointed hitboxes but he has them on a tiny *** sword leaving him with terrible range. Ganon might not have disjointed hitboxes but he's got some huge boxes on almost all of his moves meaning he can go one on one with some characters much more easily. He also has a usable grab, which Y.Link is sorely lacking lol.

It's also worth noting that you cant put too much weight into Y.Link's projectiles. He has one of the largest "Projectile Danger Zones," which is what i refer to as the area in which an enemy is too close to safely throw a projectile(or in his case throw a projectile/pull a bomb) but still too far to actively pressure with normals. It's an area that puts him hard on the defensive and it only grows with faster characters. It's not like Falco where there is an extremely small window in which he's open during a SHL and can act immediately out of it, you have to have a good amount of room before you pull a bomb or after you throw a boomerang as you can find yourself very open otherwise.

You seem to be mistaking capability for versatility. Try to compare Ganon's tools to Young Link's in a vacuum; Young Link has a more diverse palette. However, going back to my entire point, diverse options can hardly help a character if they aren't threatening. I was never trying to argue that Young Link's options were more effective than Ganon's, I was saying that his lack of power lessens his capability to really use his versatility. Simply put, Ganon is actually able to use his options whereas Young Link only has them for show. This would give the illusion that Ganon is more versatile, but its really subjective capability.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

This is what the tier list should look like, in my own professional opinion:

SS: Super broken banned by the devs tier: Metaknight
S: Mewtwo tier: Mewtwo
A: OP Down B tier: Fox, Falco, Puff, Zelda
B: Grabbers tier: Marth, Sheik, ICs, Master Hand
C: OP Fair tier: Falcon, Ganon, Doc
D: P Tier: Peach, Pikachu, Pichu
E: Projectile Tier: Samus, Link, Young Link
F: Forgettable tier: Roy, Yoshi, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness
G: Gods of Nintendo tier: Mario, Luigi
H: Here's Where Everyone Else Goes tier: DK, Bowser, Kirby

This what the tier list should look like and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Doesn't have Master Hand. 10 points from Gryffindor.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Doesn't have Master Hand. 10 points from Gryffindor.

wtf are you talking about, Master Hand is right there in B tier

 

[Isprayaxe]

Bones0 when did you become so funny!!

 

[Get Low]

Does anyone know when a new tier list will be made?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Does anyone know when a new tier list will be made?

I just posted it 2 weeks ago (look 5 posts above this one)

 

[hungrybox]

I do believe the back room is attempting to devise a new list for EVO.