Official MBR Tier List

[BunBun]

Except that 'top of the/most advanced in the metagame' does not necessarily mean the best player of a particular character. They are only one player, one style, of that character. Can you say that Wobbles and Chu both have the same style?

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Except that 'top of the/most advanced in the metagame' does not necessarily mean the best player of a particular character.

That is where you are wrong. I think Chu and Wobbles are just that, the best two IC's players and that is precisely why they are the top of the metagame. Unless I have misinterpreted what metagame means, I think that is the definition of it.

They are only one player, one style, of that character. Can you say that Wobbles and Chu both have the same style?

What defines style? How they react to situations? However it is, they definitely have the best way to react to the situations/characters. Chu being the more old school and less technical of the two, but not by much. Although I'm not an IC's player so I don't exactly know just how technical Wobbles or Chu is.

 

[megapup]

yea but then it comes back to what I'm saying. does anyone believe mango couldn't be top 12 with another character? the fact hes number one has a lot more to do with how good he is at the game then how imba jiggs is.

You can't put Puff that high just because there are only like two top puff players. How many other top Jiggs players are there? Yeaa...exactly.

exactly what i said before.

 

[hungrybox]

Once people see my falco

they gonna drop bombs on this tear list

 

[honeyBADGER!]

Once people see my falco

they gonna drop bombs on this tear list

ur not mango

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can't put Puff that high just because there are only like two top puff players. How many other top Jiggs players are there? Yeaa...exactly.

We've done this with Marth, we've done this with Ice Climbers, and now you're telling us we CAN'T DO THIS? WELL EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME!

 

[KAOSTAR]

@kyu

puff has two top competitors, as well as sheik.

mango + h box and m2k + amsah

mango is kinda just better and becomes more of an outlier.

the sheiks have comparable tourney results to puff in that case. I think that sheik has similar MU's but stronger against low tiers. also that while ppl don't main her, she is a solid cp, and id bet she gets used more than ppl think. even tho hbox is a top contender. I think puff hasn't been completely figured out yet. I think hbox will start placing a bit lower.

what you said about IC makes sense-about being in the same tier with falcon. why do you think peach is better?

skipping the middle.

from the bottom section:

m2 is no higher than bottom of low tier. gw is better.

roy is probably better than yoshi after my aim convo with vectorman.

then bowser-he is better than kirbs pichu. and ness. up + b oos goes a long way in this tier. the killing power is in his favor. ness just has more speed. ive played a good kirby and he doesn't get enough credit. but its possible for ness to be above kirby, he might have better MU's.

im pretty sure I left some **** out or contradicted myself in some way, I wrote some of it and fell asleep, but thats kinda what im thinking.

 

[DJRome]

uh, darc? places very high in tournies dude.

 

[KAOSTAR]

uh, darc? places very high in tournies dude.

my mistake, I was just trying to say there aren't many puffs placing high, same with sheik, but there are a few.

but in sheik's case, more often used as a Cp. just dont think the results of top places are so 1 sided.

imo sheik is just as viable
(not making a judgement on 3rd/4th)

 

[Let It Riot]

Isn't king coming back? If so that should add another jiggs player that places well.

 

[Winston]

That is where you are wrong. I think Chu and Wobbles are just that, the best two IC's players and that is precisely why they are the top of the metagame. Unless I have misinterpreted what metagame means, I think that is the definition of it.

What defines style? How they react to situations? However it is, they definitely have the best way to react to the situations/characters. Chu being the more old school and less technical of the two, but not by much. Although I'm not an IC's player so I don't exactly know just how technical Wobbles or Chu is.

Chu is way less technical in terms of using all the tools available to the ICs than Wobbles or Fly are. He is still a top-level player because he's really smart overall, but he pretty much ignores all the advancements in the ICs metagame. Their styles are completely different. So in your view, is the top of the metagame combining the strong points of the top players' different styles? Isn't it just better to deal with what the characters are theoretically capable of doing in practice?

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Isn't it just better to deal with what the characters are theoretically capable of doing in practice?

Yes it is better to theorize as to what the characters can do. The question is where do you draw the line between what the characters are capable of, and what humans are capable of? I would say the top players should define that line. If tournament results and specific players merit any value, it should be coming from the players who raised their characters metagames in the last 2 years. In other words, the best players.

So in your view, is the top of the metagame combining the strong points of the top players' different styles?

I suppose you could look at it like that

 

[BunBun]

Yes it is better to theorize as to what the characters can do. The question is where do you draw the line between what the characters are capable of, and what humans are capable of?

Silent Wolf and Lovage are at the top of current technical capability. Neither of them place in top spots in nationals.
So it's more along where do you draw the lines of 'top players'?

Or just realize that the entire idea of basing the metagame off only 12 people is amazingly ********.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Yes it is better to theorize as to what the characters can do. The question is where do you draw the line between what the characters are capable of, and what humans are capable of? I would say the top players should define that line. If tournament results and specific players merit any value, it should be coming from the players who raised their characters metagames in the last 2 years. In other words, the best players.

I suppose you could look at it like that

No we should simply evaluate the current metagame and create a list accordingly.
I like straight tournament result lists, since that should be the number factor going into
the list since tournament results reflect character validity...

 

[Sasha]

Tier Lists and Match Ups are determined by the TOP level of play.

In other words, the opinions of the majority of people on SWF do not matter towards these because they are not at and/or do not understand the TOP level of play.

There's a reason why only people in the MBR are allowed to vote on Tier Lists.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Silent Wolf and Lovage are at the top of current technical capability. Neither of them place in top spots in nationals.
So it's more along where do you draw the lines of 'top players'?

Or just realize that the entire idea of basing the metagame off only 12 people is amazingly ********.

From SmashWiki:
"A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournament"

You fail to grasp what the metagame, and a tier list is. Clearly SilentWolf and Lovage are not at the top of the metagame(although they are not far off), because the metagame is based upon tournament settings. In tournament settings both of their overly technical styles fail to place on top.

Tier Lists and Match Ups are determined by the TOP level of play.

In other words, the opinions of the majority of people on SWF do not matter towards these because they are not at and/or do not understand the TOP level of play.

There's a reason why only people in the MBR are allowed to vote on Tier Lists.

Exactly.

No we should simply evaluate the current metagame and create a list accordingly.
I like straight tournament result lists, since that should be the number factor going into
the list since tournament results reflect character validity...

I agree, except since popularity of a character is also a factor I think a group of people such as the MBR should be there to do their best to eliminate that variable.

 

[X1-12]

in other words, the opinions of the majority of people on swf do not matter towards these because they are not at and/or do not understand the top level of play.

waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

 

[Strong Badam]

Tier Lists and Match Ups are determined by the TOP level of play.

In other words, the opinions of the majority of people on SWF do not matter towards these because they are not at and/or do not understand the TOP level of play.

god, finally someone understands. here I was thinking it was some impossibly difficult to understand concept that only I had grasped so far. <_<

 

[LLDL]

Not difficult to grasp at all, I guarantee people know this, they just want to be in the backroom.

 

[Strong Badam]

i like this list, it's interesting

i'm glad you put doc in the right place

also is it unreasonable to say ganon is better than ICs? does anybody think that? because i always see ICs right above ganon but i don't think i've ever seen the reverse

I'd say that Ganondorf and Ice Climbers have very similar levels of tournament viability. To players of both characters I say "good luck" and I'd **** my pants if a player of either character placed 1st at an international tournament.

 

[BunBun]

From SmashWiki:
"A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournament"

You fail to grasp what the metagame, and a tier list is. Clearly SilentWolf and Lovage are not at the top of the metagame(although they are not far off), because the metagame is based upon tournament settings. In tournament settings both of their overly technical styles fail to place on top.

Yes it is better to theorize as to what the characters can do. The question is where do you draw the line between what the characters are capable of, and what humans are capable of? I would say the top players should define that line. If tournament results and specific players merit any value, it should be coming from the players who raised their characters metagames in the last 2 years. In other words, the best players.

I suppose you could look at it like that

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


The fact that they are not on top is exactly what I was pointing out. You brought up the line between human capability and character capability, and then suggested that top players define that line. Well, there are people who aren't 'top players' that have surpassed 'top players' in pure execution of the technical ability of their characters.


So maybe you don't even know what your own opinion is, much less what 'the metagame' is.


Derp.


Trying to define who is included in 'the metagame' at this point is ridiculous. Anyone that is actively trying to improve contributes to it in some way, but only high levels of play can properly affect matchup data.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Top tier:
Falco/Fox/Puff
Sheik

High tier:
Marth

Mid tier:
Falcon/Peach

Low tier:
Ice Climbers
Ganon
Samus
Doc

Bottom tier:
Luigi/Mario/Pikachu
DK
Link

Garbage:
Everyone else. Zelda, Mewtwo, and Young Link might just be bottom tier.

Reposting this because it's still correct.

Explanations:

Fox, Falco, Puff are really good. So they're the top 3. Because they're really good. And they win stuff. And because they're all really gay. They can go through a tournament and win on their own, play well on dumb levels, and have awesome colours and penalize mistakes super duper painfully with tons of colourful, elaborate traps and tricks and homosexuality. They also have frame 1 invincible moves with massive killing potential, so they're pretty good in that respect. Lawl kind of kidding. Good matchups across the board.

Sheik I want to be third. She might be. But I doubt it. Plays well on gay stages but her colours aren't quite as good as Fox, Falco, and Puff's and she doesn't have an approach because she has bad aerial mobility. Can go through a tournament without switching.

Marth might be slightly better vs Puff and space animals than Sheik, but he also has an auto-loss matchup to Sheik at top top level so he needs a secondary, which is why he's in Marth tier. He also doesn't play well on stupid levels.

Peach and Falcon have their moments of glory but they also suck. Ice Climbers may belong here, because they suck but have their moments of glory too. I'm not sure, I don't really care.

Ganon, Samus, Doc, Ice Climbers are sort of but not really viable. They have the ability to place really well on occasion but winning the whole thing is very difficult.

Pikachu, Luigi, Mario, DK, and Link are all bad but people use them sometimes anyway. And some people do or did okay with them somewhat recently so I guess they're usable in their own little way. They serve their place by getting KOed in the last round of pools or before the big money spots in the bracket so we have to acknowledge their existence for getting that far despite being terrible, but they still suck and cannot succeed on their own.

Mewtwo, Zelda, and Young Link might belong there but I'm not sure.

Everyone else is horrible and completely unviable and only wins because the opponent is completely ******** and is playing a terrible character too or not playing gay enough with a proper character.

 

[BunBun]

Zelda and Mewtwo are usable, at least. Everyone else in garbage deserves to be there.

 

[Strong Badam]

my list is pretty similar to yours, KK.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

The fact that they are not on top is exactly what I was pointing out.

Yeah. And then I pointed out that the tier list is based upon the top players in tournament. Which SilentWolf and Lovage are not. You are quite thick.

You can keep attempting to prove mute points if it makes you happy, but it won't get you into the MBR.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I thought you agreed sheik and sword guy no fire should be on the same tier?

 

[KAOSTAR]

I thought you agreed sheik and sword guy no fire should be on the same tier?

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Top tier:
Falco/Fox/Puff
Sheik

High tier:
Marth

Mid tier:
Falcon/Peach

Low tier:
Ice Climbers
Ganon
Samus
Doc

Bottom tier:
Luigi/Mario/Pikachu
DK
Link

Garbage:
Everyone else. Zelda, Mewtwo, and Young Link might just be bottom tier.

Reposting this because it's still correct.

Re-replying because I still agree.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought you agreed sheik and sword guy no fire should be on the same tier?

That doesn't sound like me, but if I did, I take it back.

Sheik doesn't have an auto-loss matchup, Marth does. Sheik can function on dumb levels, Marth can't.

Marth belongs in Marth tier.

Zelda and Mewtwo are usable, at least. Everyone else in garbage deserves to be there.

That's why I said "they might be just bottom tier, and not garbage tier".

 

[BunBun]

Yeah. And then I pointed out that the tier list is based upon the top players in tournament. Which SilentWolf and Lovage are not.

If that's the case, we're saying the same thing

You are quite thick.

And you're a douchebag, but I wasn't going to call you out on it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My list is still pefect, y'all are just haters.

 

[john!]

I really think Sheik belongs in Marth tier. Tournament results just don't stack up to the other three.

And Fox is a step above the other two because he's Fox.

Other than that, yeah it's a great list.

 

[Cosmo!]

A: fox, falco, jiggs
B: sheik, marth
C: peach, falcon, ice climbers
D: ganon, doc, samus
E: pikachu, luigi, mario
F: dk, zelda, link
G: young link, mewtwo, g&w, roy
H: yoshi, bowser
I: kirby, ness, pichu

my thoughts

 

[KirbyKaze]

I really think Sheik belongs in Marth tier. Tournament results just don't stack up to the other three.

And Fox is a step above the other two because he's Fox.

Other than that, yeah it's a great list.

I disagree. I think her ability to fight on CPs and not needing a secondary to fight a stupidly bad matchup makes her a tier better.

Also, it's hard to really say her tournament results are worse than Marth's when M2K goes both in tournament and is the best with both of them (or was, idk, he's been doing that "I'm retiring" thing again and idk if he's serious this time), and Amsah got 3rd at Pound. Unless we pull results from several years ago but I'd rather not do that...

 

[john!]

yessss i got quoted in kk's 8000th post

mission accomplished

i actually meant tourney results compared to fox/falco/puff

but you might be right. it's subjective and i guess we'll see once the new list comes out.

 

[t3h Icy]

@m2k, cactus, icy and anyone - better players beating worse players doesn't prove much at all. I know/hope most of you realize that, but apparently it needs to be said.

and there really can't be more than 2 top players for any given character. It defeats the purpose of them being the "top" players. To have 3 top for any character would be crazy.
Fox - Jman. Lucky isn't as consistent.
Falco - Shiz is the most consistent. Then...PP?
Puff - Box/Mango
Sheik - Amsah/m2k
Marth - There currently is no marth besides m2k at the top level.
Peach - Armada
Falcon - Hax/DR/SS
ICs - Wobbles/Chu

I am sure I forgot a couple people and made a mistake or two, but my point is that the tier list shouldn't be based off of any other players than the ones above. No other players play at the top of the metagame with their characters. No peach and no puff are at the level's of Box/Armada, so it is only their results and their gameplay that should be taken into consideration in the tier list.

A lot of players have different styles with the same characters though as their own personal strengths and weaknesses are different, and you can see that in their playstyles. I think HBox, M2K, Amsah, Mango and Armada are the only players that have truly mastered everything about their characters (to the current metagame). Different players also have different match-ups they aren't good at, such as Armada vs Falcon and Mango vs Ganon, despite Pink Shinobi and Hungrybox can beat them.

Most of the top players for each character have very different styles:

Fox - JMan/M2K/Lucky, ColBol, Zgetto, Javi? etc
Falco - Mango, Zhu/DrPP/Shiz, Lambchops, Calle W?
Puff - Mango, HBox, Darc
Sheik - Amsah, M2K, Over/Tope, Drephen
Marth - M2K, Dahean, HBK, Falcomist
Falcon - Hax/SS/Darkrain, Scar
Peach - Armada, Pink, Vanz, MacD
ICs - Chu, Fly, Wobbles
Ganon - Kage, Linguini, Rockcrock
Doc - HMW, Shroomed
Samus - Hugs, IHSB, DJN
Luigi - Ka-Master, Pakman
Pikachu - Axe
DK - PKM, Mexican
Mario - Green Mario?
Link - HDL, Skler, Germ
Zelda - Cosmo, Lake
Young Link - uhh, Rhan? D20? Alphicans? <3
Mewtwo - Taj, Iori
Roy - Ripple
G&W - QERB
Yoshi - Mind Trick
Bowser - DJN, WK
Ness - Toasty? Bubbleman?
Kirby - Armada
Pichu - ? ICG!

 

[Zoler]

Armada vs Falcon

Such a common misconception :embarrass

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Pichu players currently playing that are way beyond my level tuna and lori. lori F***ed me up lori's pichu I couldn't take a stock off of zhu's pikachu I could beat if I played a few matches. lori's pichu is insanely amazing.

don't put me as an amazing pichu player when tuna/lori are like 10 times better. I wish I could play against tuna to confirm it even moreso.

pikachu think about pikachad and N64.

for the most part I argee with KK list how I firmly believe if you can avoid hits and lands hits(they can't run away forever and they shouldn't always get punished for hitting them like roy or someone else dumb) then they have a legit chance I believe.

 

[x After Dawn x]

you couldn't take a stock off zhu's...pikachu?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you couldn't take a stock off zhu's...pikachu?

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH I nearly took him down to his last stock it was on livestream. I had him at a high percent on his 2nd to last stock before I lost. however if I tech chased with d-throw I may have been able to. On FD. legit stage. I also took a stock off him in falco dittos. his falco is way to sexy up-B finish