Official MBR Tier List

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

of course it was...

 

[KAOSTAR]

it's a joke dude, no one really wants you in the mbr

so mean lol.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

now he feels bad, great now you just f***ed usall up thanks a lot, don't feel bad.

but really I know a lot about pichumore than most people if not everyone. Any who marth beyond space anmals right? moving onto something I think most of us argee on.

 

[X1-12]

it's a joke dude, no one really wants you in the mbr

I want ICG in the MBR.

 

[Let It Riot]

it's a joke dude, no one really wants you in the mbr

I want ICG in the MBR as well.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

You have said you want me in but why? How have a helped any of you, have I discovered something important and know all about something? Have I ever placed high at a tournement or anything amazing? WHat would my place be to tell others where roy or sheik belongs on the tier list even if I play as them a decent amount due to random picks?

WHy should I be allow in there?

 

[KirbyKaze]

He also thinks sheik ice climbers are even except on fd. where your god now?

I don't really know that matchup and I frequently admit I have limited experience in it, so if you're expecting me to shriek in terror at a ratio I don't feel particularly strongly about anyway, you're mistaken.

I think Sheik = Falco but I don't care too strongly enough to argue it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why? Falco's is really great for his moveset but I don't see how it's definitively better.

Falco's design sucks. His Shine combos to any aerial in the game on every character but he doesn't have a good launching Uair or KOing Uair (like Sheik's Uair) and he doesn't have a strong combo finishing horizontal KO aerial (like Falcon's Knee or Ganon's Fair).

Best combo starter in the game on a slow character (in terms of side-to-side movement) with awkward vertical movement (his full jump is too high). His Shine is also extremely straight-forward, which is nice, because there aren't any dumb rules about "get hit in the air or on slope, Shine doesn't combo" like with Fox's, it works on every character regardless of traction and weight (some are light and fall down and some get pushed too far for certain follows to be possible). The only dumb rule is the wakeup percent rule thing where if his Shine is staled below 7% it just lifts them off the ground and they're not in tumble, but beyond that it's perfect in pretty much every way.

His Shine also does more shield stun because of its greater damage, but Falco can't take advantage of it because of his slow jumps. If you pressure or whatever with Falco and they get hit by a random Shine, you can often follow it even if you don't react immediately because of the launch stun whereas with Fox a random Shine that you don't expect to connect will often be impossible to follow. Even if it's impossible to follow, the fact that it launches means it puts them above you, which is usually an awesome position to have your opponent in.

I dunno, it's better for a lot of reasons.

All Fox's Shine has on Falco's Shine is being better for gimping. That's about it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I don't really know that matchup and I frequently admit I have limited experience in it, so if you're expecting me to shriek in terror at a ratio I don't feel particularly strongly about anyway, you're mistaken.

I think Sheik = Falco but I don't care too strongly enough to argue it.

yea m2 it top tier but im not gonna get scared and go sheik.

but is bair not a decent finisher? you can combo into f smash on fd or using platforms.

I still agree tho

 

[KirbyKaze]

his moves are perfect for his shine........... or i missed something.

you missed something

@ kaostar, bair is fine, but it's barely a real KO move and its ability to form bair chains a la fox is hindered by falco's ****ty jumps

 

[Pengie]

It's so sad that Falco has such ****ty kill move T__T. His only REAL kill move is his dair and people have learned how tech so you can't just stand the edge and dair until you hit something.

 

[Vro]

It went from final final tier list to, ok we admit it we need help making another one. ROFL

I think we should clearly define and create two separate tier lists. At maximum level play tier list and an Ease of Use tier list.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That would be pointless and subjective so I disagree.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ease of use WTF??? why would it matter? ice climbers are the hardest and kirby is the easiest.

also at max level ice climbers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else in perfect paly you don't stand 2 s***s vs ice climbers it's impossible to do anything. and at perfect play PIchu>>>pikachu because pikachu's sheiald can't cover his whole body so fox could shoot his feet and win the match and pressure his light sheild.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Evidently perfect Pikachu is imperfect as he cannot angle his shield or expand it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

he can't powersheild below his feet so you could pressure the f*** out of his light till it doesn't reach SHDL so he can't cover both top and bottom with his light sheild that has been weakened.

 

[Pengie]

Pikachu has a shield? And here I was under the impression that he just had some useless, vanishing bubble.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Pikachu has a shield? And here I was under the impression that he just had some useless, vanishing bubble.

Nope, he has a colored Poke Ball...

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Nope, he has a colored Poke Ball...

I don't understand pokeball=red/white /button I have one if it's colored it's not a pokeball it's simply better at caughing pokemon because purple scares them off why m2 is so bad a**

 

[Vro]

That would be pointless and subjective so I disagree.

Sounds like any tier list.

Ease of Use doesn't have to be the "Official 1337 Skills List." It just points out which characters are not limited by human imperfection of "perfect play." Maybe Jiggs is actually top tier. What I do know for sure is that comparatively she is easier to use than say Ganon. How many times have we put Fox at the top of the list, even tho he hasn't shown tournament placement? We have lists based off of just tournament placement, you know. I mean, aren't these things supposed to be guidelines?

If you're so against something as trivial as another, separate list, are you just going to assume every noob looking at the list understands and can debate "perfect, top-level play" in a list of arbitrary values? At least include a "Low, Middle, High" skill range. For instance, Falcon played at "middle" skill-level is above high tier, imo. But at the very top of the game, characters are too technical to be locked down by Falcon.

Really, all I have learned is that every snob player lives in theory bros land and that if it ain't right it could only be done right by the elitist themselves.

 

[x After Dawn x]

so mean lol.

yeah

i call em as i see em though

 

[DJRome]

rhan look for the serbian insurgent

kk, y is a good aerial required for falco? his fsmash and bair are more than adequate for kos. the stun from shine and dair dash attack are more than (and maybe utilt) enough to ko early with fsmash/bair to gimp. yes aerials have advantages, but falco can take the same advantage using other ways. basically, a strong ko is the same as a weak hit into edgeguard. like i don't see how being "easier" technically changes the effectiveness of a technique

 

[gm jack]

All Fox's Shine has on Falco's Shine is being better for gimping. That's about it.

Comboing into grabs which can lead to a kill move or straight into Usmash is pretty **** good I think. Both shines have their own uses which work with the character. Falco would be worse if he had Fox's shine, and Fox may be worse with Falco's shine (Uthrow -> Uair or Usmash are better than shine to one aerial, but I don't know).

Either, way, neither are exactly bad moves the characters would be better without.

 

[DJRome]

no one is saying they're bad, only their relative positions. clearly 1 frame move is broken. but in any case, i think they're both equally good, just used for different purposes. putting them on each other is kind of a stupid discussion tho

 

[MarsFool!]

Falco cant knock people down with his shine to do jab resets.

 

[Merkuri]

no one is saying they're bad, only their relative positions. clearly 1 frame move is broken. but in any case, i think they're both equally good, just used for different purposes. putting them on each other is kind of a stupid discussion tho

Both equally good? People need to stop being ******* and take a stance on these things. I have to agree with KK. Falco's shine >> Fox's. And the shine spike isn't that big a deal since unlike Fox Falco actually has a true spike.

 

[Ripple]

Both equally good? People need to stop being ******* and take a stance on these things.

saying that fox and falco's shine are equally good IS taking a stance on the matter.

I personally think that fox's shine is better.

if a fox hits any character with his shine he can follow it up better than falco can IMO because of the set knock back. fox can ALWAYS waveshine > grab>up air/ upsmash/ thunders> charged up smash

 

[Pengie]

Neither shine is better than the other. Falco's shine works wonderfully with his moveset because of its synergy with his dair. I Fox had Falco's shine how exactly would he capitalize on a shine? Sure, the premise of Fox being able to do Shine --> Up air seems amazing but there is a reason you never see Falcos going for it; it's too easily avoided. Falco can keep the threat of a shine --> bair because he has a mix up on their DI; if they DI in front of Falco or don't DI at all Falco gets to hit with his dair, or if they DI behind him or don't DI he can get a bair. Fox Doesn't have a threatening move to finish combos if they DI in front of him except for his nair which doesn't present the same threat as Falco's dair. Fox would also lose his ability to combo into that Upsmash of his which is clearly bad.

Alternatively Falco doesn't want Fox's Shine because he loses most of his immediate followups. Falco's grab game isn't as threatening as Fox's so even if he could get a free grab it wouldn't be that bad (Falco already gets free grabs because of his shield pressure mixups and they rarely result in something other than an edgeguard on most characters.)

So yeah both shines are broken because of their respective character's options from the shine connecting. Flipping them would probably hurt the characters overall.

 

[SleepyK]

I think Sheik = Falco but I don't care too strongly enough to argue it.

i agree with this statement. both have good answers to each other's thingies.

Falco's design sucks. His Shine combos to any aerial in the game on every character but he doesn't have a good launching Uair or KOing Uair (like Sheik's Uair) and he doesn't have a strong combo finishing horizontal KO aerial (like Falcon's Knee or Ganon's Fair).

Best combo starter in the game on a slow character (in terms of side-to-side movement) with awkward vertical movement (his full jump is too high). His Shine is also extremely straight-forward, which is nice, because there aren't any dumb rules about "get hit in the air or on slope, Shine doesn't combo" like with Fox's, it works on every character regardless of traction and weight (some are light and fall down and some get pushed too far for certain follows to be possible). The only dumb rule is the wakeup percent rule thing where if his Shine is staled below 7% it just lifts them off the ground and they're not in tumble, but beyond that it's perfect in pretty much every way.

His Shine also does more shield stun because of its greater damage, but Falco can't take advantage of it because of his slow jumps. If you pressure or whatever with Falco and they get hit by a random Shine, you can often follow it even if you don't react immediately because of the launch stun whereas with Fox a random Shine that you don't expect to connect will often be impossible to follow. Even if it's impossible to follow, the fact that it launches means it puts them above you, which is usually an awesome position to have your opponent in.

I dunno, it's better for a lot of reasons.

All Fox's Shine has on Falco's Shine is being better for gimping. That's about it.

most good foxes nowadays can react to random shines that hit. or at least put themselves in a position that they can respond to what happens after the hit (tech, roll, whatever)

you missed something
@ kaostar, bair is fine, but it's barely a real KO move and its ability to form bair chains a la fox is hindered by falco's ****ty jumps

It's so sad that Falco has such ****ty kill move T__T. His only REAL kill move is his dair and people have learned how tech so you can't just stand the edge and dair until you hit something.

you're not supposed to bair chain with falco. you're also supposed to combo into fsmash/dsmash for kills, which are fine kill moves in their own right. falco's edgeguard game is also pryi gud.

Falco cant knock people down with his shine to do jab resets.

but you can sdi jabs. plus jab reset stops working after a while.

saying that fox and falco's shine are equally good IS taking a stance on the matter.

I personally think that fox's shine is better.

if a fox hits any character with his shine he can follow it up better than falco can IMO because of the set knock back. fox can ALWAYS waveshine > grab>up air/ upsmash/ thunders> charged up smash

i think this is where the strongest (not including hitbox/distance/trajectory whatever) distinction comes out between the two. fox can use his to guarantee a setup into something whereas falco's eventually loses its ability to combo and set up for kills... other than shinebair, but you can DI the bair anyway.

 

[VA]

I think Fox's shine has more versatility. It is SO threatening on stage if you are a character that can be waveshined. It has pressure gimp and combo that all lead from that move, all at some of the highest level of any move.

I remember seeing a post a while ago that listed the 5 best moves in the game. I think it was these

Fox - Shine
Falco - Shine, Laser, Dair
Jiggz - Rest

I sort of believe that to be true when you think about the moves in a comparative sense.

I wouldn't like to say I know which is better Fox's or Falco's, it depends strongly on the criteria you're using to measure it.

 

[Animal]

tier list so outdated it makes me lul

 

[JPOBS]

i havent looked at the first page since this thread was made
Marth in second

lolwutisthis...idonteven

 

[otg]

tier list so outdated it makes me lul

good **** going to no johns.

 

[Archangel]

Marth is maybe 5th at best right now. It hurts my heart to say it but thats how it is until We(Marth players) Step it up.

 

[rhan]

I still believe that Marth is still a top 3 character on the tier list. If anyone was planning to put Jiggs or Peach over Marth I would gladly like to hear why you think so. Because they aren't as good as him.

 

[Rappster]

I still believe that Marth is still a top 3 character on the tier list. If anyone was planning to put Jiggs or Peach over Marth I would gladly like to hear why you think so. Because they aren't as good as him.

Fox, Falco are better than marth. nuff said.
Jiggs is better than marth because while marth can gimp, jiggs can gimp and ko.
Also, jiggs' bad matchup with fox (and maybe falco) is better than marth's trouble with shiek.
Also, tournament results massively favor jiggs over marth.
Sheik is also better in both the matchup chart (theory craft) and Tournament results (according to the thread).

 

[JPOBS]

I still believe that Marth is still a top 3 character on the tier list. If anyone was planning to put Jiggs or Peach over Marth I would gladly like to hear why you think so. Because they aren't as good as him.

this is the first time i've heard this opinion

i thought pretty much everyone agreed on marth's fall from grace. why do you think he's so good these days?

 

[x After Dawn x]

first of all, jiggs doesn't have a bad matchup against falco, it's the opposite

but you have to factor in that sheiks are also more rare in tourney, not to mention jiggs players have gotten better at the fox matchup

regardless, i think nearly everyone can agree that both fox and falco are better than marth

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think PP and hungrybox think its even or slight A for falco.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hmm just throwing this out there, some people pick up fox/falco/peach(ice climbers if you wanted to know)/sheik/marth to counter a match-up problem. puff isn't really used as a counter pick as mucj as I hear and see sure mango but it's not because of the match-up but the player.