Fortress | Sveet
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^ yoshi?
ness?
ness?
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Tamoo
Smash Master
yoshi ain't bad in 64, but ness has been consistently ****
probs the least played character overall too come to think of it, never see any nesses these days esp in melee
probs the least played character overall too come to think of it, never see any nesses these days esp in melee
Powda193
Smash Journeyman
I still think Marth is #1
Name one top player who does not play Marth! It seems like he has won so many tournies recently
Name one top player who does not play Marth! It seems like he has won so many tournies recently
pockyD
Smash Legend
thesage
Smash Hero
Ness is better than Link in 64 and brawl so Link's been a less consistent character.
otg
Smash Master
Samus is also one of the worst overall as well, though she is kinda/sortof/not really good/bad in Melee. She's the worst in 64 and i think 3rd or 4th worst in brawl iirc. It's def one of those 4 though.
G U R U
Smash Lord
Ganon should be higher. That is all.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
name a marth player thats been winning national tourneys recently
i just realized something...marth, jiggz, and peach are all floaties who have been mastered by the best players in the world (Ken and M2k with marth), (mango) with jiggz, and (armada) with Peach
All the best in their own eras.
And M2k (marth) FTW AT POUND 4.
All the best in their own eras.
And M2k (marth) FTW AT POUND 4.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
Chu Dat used to be one of the best too
Fortress | Sveet
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WOAH did you know they all used controllers made by nintendo!? I THINK WERE ON TO SOMETHING HERE!
pockyD
Smash Legend
m2k won all sorts of stuff that mango didn't attend
yes, but Mango has been at everything that I'd consider a national since Pound 3
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
lol that marth reasoning is dumb.
mango has won every national tourney, he happens to not play marth. he hasnt won using fox either, does that make fox bad?
mango has won every national tourney, he happens to not play marth. he hasnt won using fox either, does that make fox bad?
well, the better reasoning for Marth sucks is to like, look way past 1st place at what characters are doing well.
so like, let's look at Genesis top 16 and 32, shall we?
Top 16 Character-Main Breakdown
Fox: 1 (Top Placer: JMan 13th)
Falco: 3 (Top Placer: Zhu 4th)
Sheik: 1 (Top Placer: Tope 13th)
Marth: 1 (Top Placer: M2K 5th)
Jiggs: 4 (Top Placer: Mango 1st)
Peach: 3 (Top Placer: Armada 2nd)
Falcon: 3 (Top Placer: Scar 6th)
Top 32 Character Main Breakdown
Fox: 6 (Top Placer: JMan 13th)
Falco: 5 (Top Placer: Zhu 4th)
Sheik: 2 (Top Placer: Tope 13th)
Marth: 2 (Top Placer: M2K 5th)
Jiggs: 4 (Top Placer: Mango 1st)
Peach: 3 (Top Placer: Armada 2nd)
Falcon: 4 (Top Placer: Scar 6th)
ICs: 2 (Top Placer: UberIce/Fly Amanita 25th)
Ganon: 2 (Top Placer: Linguini/Kage 17th)
Link: 1 (Top Placer: Germ 25th)
+1 for whoever SOS mains, he's the only one I didn't know (I'd guess Fox though, lol)
...and that's counting M2K as strictly a Marth main, he used a bunch of sheik at that tourney.
so like, let's look at Genesis top 16 and 32, shall we?
Top 16 Character-Main Breakdown
Fox: 1 (Top Placer: JMan 13th)
Falco: 3 (Top Placer: Zhu 4th)
Sheik: 1 (Top Placer: Tope 13th)
Marth: 1 (Top Placer: M2K 5th)
Jiggs: 4 (Top Placer: Mango 1st)
Peach: 3 (Top Placer: Armada 2nd)
Falcon: 3 (Top Placer: Scar 6th)
Top 32 Character Main Breakdown
Fox: 6 (Top Placer: JMan 13th)
Falco: 5 (Top Placer: Zhu 4th)
Sheik: 2 (Top Placer: Tope 13th)
Marth: 2 (Top Placer: M2K 5th)
Jiggs: 4 (Top Placer: Mango 1st)
Peach: 3 (Top Placer: Armada 2nd)
Falcon: 4 (Top Placer: Scar 6th)
ICs: 2 (Top Placer: UberIce/Fly Amanita 25th)
Ganon: 2 (Top Placer: Linguini/Kage 17th)
Link: 1 (Top Placer: Germ 25th)
+1 for whoever SOS mains, he's the only one I didn't know (I'd guess Fox though, lol)
...and that's counting M2K as strictly a Marth main, he used a bunch of sheik at that tourney.
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
1 fox player in top 16 at genesis.
well, it doesn't count any of the Fox that Zhu and Shiz played. I also think that Cactuar and JMan under performed at Genesis, but no johns.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
hmmm mango could still get top 16 with fox easily
zhu plays fox against peach and jiggs ie against hungrybox in semis
m2k plays fox in some matchups too ie jigglypuff
jman plays fox
shiz plays fox
armada can play a decent fox (as shown in doubles)
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
No one got my gay pun, huh?
Fortress | Sveet
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Wow guys, for the last time, player performance =/= character potential. Characters do have something to do with it, but for the most part its all the players abilities that placed them where they are.
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
Thank you...
I hope that when you say 'potential' you mean 'potential to win a tournament'
Cause that's what the tier list is. ^_^
Cause if you mean 'potential' as in 'if this character were played perfectly the. .. . '
If that's the case bowser is top tier :D
^_~ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ~_^
Cause that's what the tier list is. ^_^
Cause if you mean 'potential' as in 'if this character were played perfectly the. .. . '
If that's the case bowser is top tier :D
^_~ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ~_^
D
Deleted member
Guest
A tier list is a list of characters ordered best to worst in likelihood of winning a tournament at the best known level of play based on recent yet applicable tournament results.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I am currently arguing that the best known level of play no longer exists and thus the tier list should not be affected by recent tournament results (and therefore remain unchanged).
Vts
Smash Champion
But the meta game has changed so much more in the last 2 years then it had from 2002-2006.
and a lot of new characters are being played at higher levels now compared to 2002-2006.
and the best known level of play is now mango play.
he wins by playing smart not technical just smart.
Fortress | Sveet
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i agree actually.
Mango is currently the best player, yes. He basically has a monopoly of the game at the moment cause competition isn't around like it used to be.
Also, I don't know what you're saying but mango is amazingly technical with his spacing. m2k and etc were never about blindingly fast tech skill anyway, so that statement is way off base.
So I guess in response to mow's statement about the highest level of play known to the community not being around anymore . . shouldn't the tier list represent the current tournament environment? aka Jiggs moves up.
Vts
Smash Champion
Maybe i worded it wrong, mango is technical but not as much as say DSW or M2K, watch his matches he makes the best choices that are present and has a character that has little to none for bad matches and is hard to punish
The tier list should change from tournaments from 08' and 09' , not cus of just one person but look at jigglepuffs as a whole , most are winning everything if not getting top 3 at every event if there is a smart puff there.
and i agree with you that my previous statement was little messed up, and to the fact the tier list should see some changes.
Falcos and puffs have been doing amazing job recently.
Melee is picking up a lot of steam from new people and old people returning, these new people might figure out some new tricks or have different playing style that might win tournaments with their character and the tier list should reflect the change even if by a little bit of some moving around.
IMO the tier list should be updated every year or at least have it so it show who won last year's tournaments (30+ ppl tournaments) with what character(s).
D
Deleted member
Guest
the theory behind this is that we really want to know how good the characters are. the best measure of this is tournament performance, and to ignore player bias. assuming that players will play to win in a tournament setting and motivated by whatever prize there is, the players should show us who the best characters are and why.
in short, the tier list never intends to be a part of the metagame. frankly, it is interesting to see how well a character performs in a given metagame, but overall players want the bigger picture from the tier list. if we just know what to look for, the tier list presents itself to us. overall we're looking for a means to rank characters from best to worst, and employ a tournament setting and model to do so.
think of it like capitalism showing us why communism is doesn't work. that might help a little? the theory is the hardest part to grasp really.
ya, i totly agry guiz, Ken wud rap Mango sooooo hrd!
cubaisdeath
Smash Lord
Jiggs should move up, but its really hard to alter the list when you apply some theory to it all.
I don't even think that Jiggs is top tier still, as good as she is. I think she is better than Peach/ICs/Falcon, but not better than Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik
The best known level of play no longer exists? I'm a little confused here
. Do you mean to say that Smash's 2009 metagame is worse than it's 2006-07 metagame? Could you please explain why you think this?Also if a crew battle between 2009 and 2007 happened (Once we get time travel down). I'm pretty sure 2009 would beat the **** out of 2007. Plus you would have all these paradoxes as people would be fighting themselves. Paradox combo!!!!!!!!!
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
i totally agree...i don't how people think the pros of yesterday could beat that the pros of today. Azen and chillin are placing in the 7-9 area in recent EC tournaments. Chu did win recently, but he has lost to "new pros" such as Dr. PPThe best known level of play no longer exists? I'm a little confused here
Also if a crew battle between 2009 and 2007 happened (Once we get time travel down). I'm pretty sure 2009 would beat the **** out of 2007. Plus you would have all these paradoxes as people would be fighting themselves. Paradox combo!!!!!!!!!
oh...so you mean you agree with my statement? thanks. . .?
edit: I don't think that 2009 would beat 2007 just cause the player pool of 2007 was . . .amazing. Assuming there will be no individual players meeting themselves to preserve the space time continuum then it's not even a challenge.
I think Brawl's release was the worst thing that could have happened to this game next to melee losing competitive support from mlg/evo. We need an HD remix.
you guys are dumb puff sucks
all you ******s need to learn some matchups and stop complaining ( m2k )
ive been playing marth and marth is mad goooood ... He can cover everything soooo good and his
dash dance is fuknnn ****
Ive also been playing fox.. fuker is 2 fast and ****
Falco is just good till u get hit ... and we all get hit=P
Sheik is underused shes pretttty good
Marth
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Peach/puff
Falcon
then who cares about the rest
everyone says that puff is ****** ..i use puff just 2 **** armada.. (lol)
Hbox ***** people cause people are dumb and dont no matchups...
Once people figure out that you shouldn approach him and just let him throw attacks out and punish them
instead of running into them ... LIKE have you seen colbol PLAY HIM .. GODDD DAMMIT ur
little "good" puff player gets ***** cause colbol knows the matchup.. like u guys need 2 learn
***GGSSSSS
<3
all you ******s need to learn some matchups and stop complaining ( m2k )
ive been playing marth and marth is mad goooood ... He can cover everything soooo good and his
dash dance is fuknnn ****
Ive also been playing fox.. fuker is 2 fast and ****
Falco is just good till u get hit ... and we all get hit=P
Sheik is underused shes pretttty good
Marth
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Peach/puff
Falcon
then who cares about the rest
everyone says that puff is ****** ..i use puff just 2 **** armada.. (lol)
Hbox ***** people cause people are dumb and dont no matchups...
Once people figure out that you shouldn approach him and just let him throw attacks out and punish them
instead of running into them ... LIKE have you seen colbol PLAY HIM .. GODDD DAMMIT ur
little "good" puff player gets ***** cause colbol knows the matchup.. like u guys need 2 learn
***GGSSSSS
<3
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