Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Peahnuts]

Is it just me or does utilt whiff on Pikachu and Kirby on many occasions as well? I thought the hitbox for that started from the ground. Maybe I'm just bad. Although Pika might not be the worse MU for ZSS (although I think it is), it's definitely my least favourite MU to vs in tournament.

I need to study NickRiddle/Nairo vs Esam more lol.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Is it just me or does utilt whiff on Pikachu and Kirby on many occasions as well? I thought the hitbox for that started from the ground. Maybe I'm just bad. Overall, Pika might not be the worse MU for ZSS (although I think it is), it's definitely my least favourite MU to vs in tournament.

I need to study NickRiddle/Nairo vs Esam more lol.

It's sadly not just you

 

[pichuthedk]

XD ily guys, hopefully I'll love Sammy enough to practice again zzz...

Also before I forget this question yet again, for those MUs with characters that have that absurd areial mobility like puff, up tilt OoS seems very useless a majority of the time because she never gets her legs up in the air fast enough.

Would it be possible to catch them with JC up smash? I wanted to try boost kick as well but....that's stock ending overkill risk wise.

Even though now that I ponder about it you will not really be able to get them with a hyphen up smash since they always retreat after hitting your shield. Ugh looks like I'll have to test out boost kick.

 

[David Viran]

XD ily guys, hopefully I'll love Sammy enough to practice again zzz...

Also before I forget this question yet again, for those MUs with characters that have that absurd areial mobility like puff, up tilt OoS seems very useless a majority of the time because she never gets her legs up in the air fast enough.

Would it be possible to catch them with JC up smash? I wanted to try boost kick as well but....that's stock ending overkill risk wise.

Even though now that I ponder about it you will not really be able to get them with a hyphen up smash since they always retreat after hitting your shield. Ugh looks like I'll have to test out boost kick.

Try oos uair.

 

[pichuthedk]

Try oos uair.

Yeah that's another one chars like puff so gosh darn annoying because even when you PS their bs they are moving so far out of reach for them legs of ours.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah that's another one chars like puff so gosh darn annoying because even when you PS their bs they are moving so far out of reach for them legs of ours.

Don't forget Puffs incredible hitbox durations.

 

[Shaya]

are they really? #_#

isn't everything she does kinda easy to power shield?
Then you just... dash attack it... even if you don't power shield it's usually punishing~

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

DA 5-20
sSmash 16-24
nAir 6-30
fAir 8-20
uAir 9-21
dAir 7-32
Pound 13-28

FML

 

[pichuthedk]

Well now I know why I hate that mu as well.

But if we shield a move we shouldn't be hit by it after dropping/JC OoS unless it's a multi hit though.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Well now I know why I hate that mu as well.

But if we shield a move we shouldn't be hit by it after dropping/JC OoS unless it's a multi hit though.

have fun shielding pound

 

[Shaya]

I was referring to aerials. Dash attack can be annoying, but seeing as she's such a slow floater the way she tries to hit a shield is usually telegraphed, at the least her side-b tends to be easy to power shield and when they're closer than usual it's likely a forward air (of a similar timing).

You can take the single side-b on shield and take a good punish then hold off until your shield restores. Shielding most of her stuff is fine tbqh. Just know how long you need to run away for to replenish it...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I was referring to aerials. Dash attack can be annoying, but seeing as she's such a slow floater the way she tries to hit a shield is usually telegraphed, at the least her side-b tends to be easy to power shield and when they're closer than usual it's likely a forward air (of a similar timing).

You can take the single side-b on shield and take a good punish then hold off until your shield restores. Shielding most of her stuff is fine tbqh. Just know how long you need to run away for to replenish it...

You can sum the MU up with "run away until puff is kill"

 

[Otterz]

What do you guys think about Pac-Man's camping game? Since our neutral game is not that great and his Fire Hydrant can shut down a lot of our Paralyzer approaches I think this MU could become a pain. Should we just be using Zair a lot?

 

[pichuthedk]

What do you guys think about Pac-Man's camping game? Since our neutral game is not that great and his Fire Hydrant can shut down a lot of our Paralyzer approaches I think this MU could become a pain. Should we just be using Zair a lot?

hydrant can't be used by use as well to a certain degree for a variety of things IMO.
I know I saw some compilation video of a mexican pac doing the most absurd stuff with hydrant but some of those things are easy to avoid by us in some sense or even use to our advantage.
It's been a while since i've done that MU but things I've noticed are.

-Pacs always drop hydrant if you approach from below for some random reason and it's useful to let him drop it and then refresh your moves with like downsmash /jab
-If he lands on the hydrants we should get an f-smash/grab (? can't remember atm)
-flip jump kicks help you either dodge or just go straight up aggro on him in those cases where you want to use the hydrant against him (I also believe if you aim the kick properly you will be high enough to jump before hitting the ground in case he tries to punish)

-Pac man is lawlable when you manage to stun him with fruit in his hands (especially if he drops the bell) double stun is ******** on Zss xD.


Pac can be somewhat janky but if you hit/stun him during his side b Recovery he's almost always dead depending on where he is (Also eating pellets is <3)

 

[Muffin!]

I feel like pacmans camping game is one of the easier ones for ZSS to get around. He can't hide behind the hydrant because tether, and his projectiles are, for the most part, slow and easy to get around. Just don't approach with short hops if he has a hydrant down and use your shield well. His grab is terrible so he doesn't have a very good response to shields. We know something about that.

 

[pichuthedk]

air dodge catch/cancel item throw is pretty staple for the annoyances he'll put you through in anycase.

 

[Equin0x]

I need SERIOUS help with the Sonic MU. I've heard that it's Sonic's worst MU, but I have no idea how to fight him. I've heard that Paralyzer shot shuts down Spin Dash, but he can just jump over it and Nair or Dair me to punish, and if I fire it on reaction, a ful Spin Dash clangs with an uncharged shot. I understand that we can catch his landings if he uses Spring, but I find it hard to force them to use Spring without allowing them to Dair back onto the stage. Someone please help.

 

[Shaya]

ZSS overall has better mobility specs than Sonic (in this match up). Sonic can't really contest ZSS in the air, so while you're there he has to be really picky about his actions, lest we just start charging paralyzer while he's charging something and then it's a near check mate.
There's no hitbox on the jump part, so if it's at a fair/safe distance and you react that's a non-issue mostly!

Grab his landings, that's what sucks for him; nair/fair aren't doing anything and bair is slow start up and heavy landing lag. You can space quite far away from his body and still basically always be able to grab or dash attack his landings.

 

[pichuthedk]

I need SERIOUS help with the Sonic MU. I've heard that it's Sonic's worst MU, but I have no idea how to fight him. I've heard that Paralyzer shot shuts down Spin Dash, but he can just jump over it and Nair or Dair me to punish, and if I fire it on reaction, a ful Spin Dash clangs with an uncharged shot. I understand that we can catch his landings if he uses Spring, but I find it hard to force them to use Spring without allowing them to Dair back onto the stage. Someone please help.

Well typically firing on reaction to clang with spindash is good because you know what will happen and if it's max ranged uncharged shot you should be unpunished.

Trying to jump and up air him out of shield generally forcing them to spring which is what you want bit you can't really punish them, you can clang with spring by using upsmash and possibly trying to grab or down smash his dair.

The biggest thing I've gotten was up z mashing the spring -> down smashing infront of me because he used dair immediately.

That mu is a pain but it's somewhat manageable. Look up V115 vs meek speedy on youtube if you can, I am sure they have replays.

 

[Equin0x]

Thanks bunch. I couldn't find any by searching around on Youtube, but I found 1 set of V115 v Meek Speedy and 1 set of Nick Riddle v True Blue in the video thread (speaking of which could someone pop in there? There are like four users awaiting critique, including me. I'm trying to get to critiquing when I can.), so I'll watch them when I have wifi.

In the meantime, should I take that strategy of capitalizing on landings to mean that we shiuld take him to FD or Smashville? I tried to avoid that in the past since I thought he liked those stages.

And then what to do when I'm losing and forced to approach? It seems like he just runs under or jumps over anything I try to do.

 

[pichuthedk]

Thanks bunch. I couldn't find any by searching around on Youtube, but I found 1 set of V115 v Meek Speedy and 1 set of Nick Riddle v True Blue in the video thread (speaking of which could someone pop in there? There are like four users awaiting critique, including me. I'm trying to get to critiquing when I can.), so I'll watch them when I have wifi.

In the meantime, should I take that strategy of capitalizing on landings to mean that we shiuld take him to FD or Smashville? I tried to avoid that in the past since I thought he liked those stages.

And then what to do when I'm losing and forced to approach? It seems like he just runs under or jumps over anything I try to do.

Don't really thing I am super qualified, However I might be able to give a tinge of insight to a degree.

 

[Shaya]

Final Destination is a VERY VERY good stage for ZSS in this match up.
Smashville is the opposite. If Sonic plays extremely campy then he can use the moving platform to jump and land safely somewhere out of his spin dash charges (while it retreats away for him and he can instantly start another spin dash charge which he can platform drop out of...), this is something he can't do on FD, and as other stages are more static with the platforms it's a lot less surprising and easier to cover/zone around.

 

[Muffin!]

Since the conversation has lulled in here... do we still think ZSS beats Rosa? The consensus now seems to be that ZSS destroys Rosa because Nairo consistently beats Dabuz. I feel like people are putting too much stock into those two players though and not actually evaluating the matchup. Nairo himself has stated a few times that ZSS loses to Rosa, he's just personally really good at the matchup.

I just don't see how ZSS wins the matchup, although that could just be that I'm personally bad at it. Seems to me like Rosa excels in ever area ZSS struggles in, and has all the right tools to eliminate ZSS' best options.

 

[Shaya]

I just don't see how Rosalina wins the match up, although that could just be that every Rosa I play is surprisingly bad at it. Seems to me like ZSS excels in every area Rosa struggles in (landing, height!!!, light weight, winning without luma) to eliminate Rosa's best options (Luma, dominating neutral, killing early/punishing hard).

[Sorry for the patronizing tone but you didn't really say anything about it whatsoever]

 

[Otterz]

I feel like Dash Attack is really useful for getting rid of Luma, but her superior neutral might make it hard to get in. We'd have to have really good spacing for this MU specifically IMO.

 

[Muffin!]

I just don't see how Rosalina wins the match up, although that could just be that every Rosa I play is surprisingly bad at it. Seems to me like ZSS excels in every area Rosa struggles in (landing, height!!!, light weight, winning without luma) to eliminate Rosa's best options (Luma, dominating neutral, killing early/punishing hard).

[Sorry for the patronizing tone but you didn't really say anything about it whatsoever]

Rosa's strength is walling people out and playing defensively. As we all know, that's where ZSS struggles. Rosa in the neutral is really good at forcing ZSS to have perfect spacing and take more risks. Luma can break up grab combos and kill setups before they start. Luma eats paralyzer shots, jab, and downsmash. The disjointed hitboxes on Rosas dair makes it more difficult to juggle her. Rosa is better than most at edgeguarding ZSS with her huge disjointed hitboxes.

The things that make ZSS a top tier character (combos and kill setups from grab/paralyzer/dsmash, her jab, juggling ability, great recovery) are all things that Rosa counters really well. When Luma is gone ZSS wins I think, but with luma there it seems pretty difficult. Even at the highest level of play though, Luma is usually there for the majority of the match. ZSS thrives when your opponent is aggressive, and struggles when they play defensively and out of shield. Rosa is the queen of defensive play.

It's not all bad for ZSS. Our superior mobility helps. ZSS is better than average at getting rid of Luma. Zair is nice, but that only gets us so far. She's easily edgeguarded, big, and light, but those aren't really unique advantages to ZSS so I'm not sure they count for anything.

Just seems like a bad matchup to me. I'd probably agree with nairo that it's 65-35.

If you have to preemptively apologize for being patronizing, you're not sorry. Let's not step on peoples toes, it's just a matchup discussion <3.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Ah, I think that ZSS rocks Rosa pretty hard. She may force ZSS to approach, but between zair, side b aimed at luma but not at Rosa (see: very safe distances), and the fact that many of our moves (bair, fair, nair, dash attack, down smash... heck even trading a flip kick) can one-hit-stun luma off the luma blast zones (the edges)... I just see ZSS having most of the cards here.

I'll note this here - ZSS can, if need be, go high risk on the luma kill and it's generally worth it. ZSS could flip kick, only hit luma, take a few shots from Rosa and it will still be worth the time gain. Why? Cause the resulting opportunity to punish favors ZSS way more. Also of note, Luma depends on Rosa's shield. If that reduces any, Luma gets shield poked first. ZSS' down smash is completely safe on shield 50% of the time and only vulnerable to 4-frame-or-faster responses the other 50% of the time. A short review of frame data shows that Rosalina does not a have a 4 frame out of shield response option. She needs a perfect shield to try and contest down smash. So, effectively, if Rosa fails to stuff the 20 frame startup of down smash, she can't effectively respond to the hit on shield. If the shield is small enough, Luma may take the brunt of that attack.

I recently learned that her dash attack (low to the ground, hits far away) has obnoxious amounts of end frames, and can be shield grabbed by ZSS. This is not a normal response for ZSS. In fact, a light comb over of her frame data shows many moves having first actionable frames in the 40's and 50's with respect to end frames. As many know and have experienced, getting grabbed by ZSS is un fun. At certain low percents, you get the full b&b (dthrow, up air, up air, boost kick) and at extended percents you get the truncated b&b (dthrow, up air, jump, boost kick). And at even further percents, you get dthrow to double jump back air.

So... I believe that between having great tools for knocking luma out of the picture, her height allowing for rising aerials (not common for a character with such a large and quick short hop), and her moveset allowing for many kinds of shield grabs (I cannot stress this enough!), I just don't see how this can ever work in Rosa's favor.

Granted, I see her strengths and how they lead to her being a top level character, they just don't add up to ZSS' in this case.

----

Oh also! Since it's kinda my thing... I'll mention this: the Hype Kick II can effectively stuff Rosa's recovery if timed right. The double benefit? Luma likely eats it even if you miss.

 

[Otterz]

Saw Nick Riddle Down Smash -> Flip Kick Spike on Rosalina's recovery and I think we should be going for it whenever possible. Its unpunishable and with Rosalina's recovery not having a hitbox, there's not too many reasons to just let her get back. This can really affect the MU in my opinion because we get a strong punish if she goes for ledge as well as if she lands on stage.

Of course it comes back to getting her off stage.

Spoiler

Full set.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

People seem to be implying that ZSS has to approach Rosalina? Zair reaches farther than Luma's attacks can and Luma can't shield. Unless I'm missing something, as long as Luma is alive Rosalina should be approaching us and not playing defensively since we can force her to.

 

[Muffin!]

Reading these comments has made me think that maybe I just view Luma differently than most. I feel like too much of the matchup discussion focuses on what we can do to Luma. ZSS has great tools for getting rid of luma, but pressuring Luma doesn't win the match for you. Yes, yes, it's easier when Luma is gone, but ultimately the fact that luma eats so many of our hits like zair, nair, bair, dsmash, is an advantage to rosalina, not us.

And while we do have great tools for pressuring Luma, ultimately luma is still there or the majority of the match and that means that ultimately rosa still has all the advantages I listed above for the majority of the match.

With regards to approaching, my experience is that zair and paralyzer pressure simply isn't enough to force Rosa to approach. Zair is a great tool but it's pretty easy to avoid and doesn't really hit hard enough to force a smart Rosa out from her defensive position. Most Rosas are happy to let Luma eat some paralyzer shots.

Again, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I might just personally suck at this matchup, but on paper all I see are hard counters to ZSS' best options.

@ Dr. Tuen Thanks a ton for showing the hype kick II. It won me a few games on the ladder today! I also checked out your video on the boost kick option select. I'll definitely be playing around with that. It seems incredibly useful.

 

[Shaya]

Any match up on wifi, especially for a character like ZSS that requires precision and good spacing, is going to be heavily skewed depending on the opposing character's qualities.

If we're doing things properly, hitting luma can hurts rosa and otherwise pressures her movements. Hitting rosa with zair is grab or dash attack follow ups; buffered or acted out efficiently and Luma won't be hitting you because Rosa will still be in hit stun.

I find ZSS's ability to negate Luma (zair hitting through luma is of benefit to us, stuns it/etc) indicative of how neutral and the match up goes in general. It's more than just zair though.
I find the fact that rosalina is a tall and somewhat wide character makes it really easy to, with good movement in mind, reactively punish a lot of her stuff or get any of our aerials hitting her in a way that sets up.
I rarely have Luma get in the way of me following up on Rosa... Why? Because I pay attention to where Luma is. Do you know what the nair/jab (usual story, similar things still apply) hitboxes are? ... Move around it when you get a hit (automatic tumble item drops like bananas/bombs are a lot more consistently a nuisance because they're real things that can be done during hit stun... yet you can still play around them most of the time). Buffer immediate throws from your grabs and power shield luma attacks or act intelligently to avoid the counter hit. Luma does not break time and space to hit you when you Rosa is in hit stun.

I find myself getting nairs, bairs uairs, dash attacks and zairs reliably on Rosa while playing safe outside of her mid-range and then wrecking her for trying to land.
When you're playing live and air dodging or other silly single press wifi win buttons aren't even remotely as good because not only can you easily react to them if you wait, if you play properly and it doesn't work out you've likely spaced and positioned yourself to turn it into a frame trap, that's what you base Zero Suit Samus' match up abilities on.
Even stuff like Rosa's down air is a completely different beast when you have the ability to attempt to hit up airs not from below but rather from the side (optimal).

Rosa can't hit our shield without dying either, most of her moveset is unsafe. Even with Luma, dash attack OoS will usually still hit her even if you hitlag through luma for some 8 frames.

(The preemptive apology was because it wasn't intended to insult, it was merely necessitated in the context~)

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If you keep using zair and paralyzer and Rosa doesn't approach then Luma will just die, and then she's stuck without Luma.

 

[MOM Samus]

Nifty trap on Rosa.

Go for tether ledge trumps each time. If she recovers high, rush in and go for a Boost Kick. No good results online because...i's online, but I know this is very effective offline.

Still don't underestimate Rosa. She is still a very cheap character with effortless auto-win buttons. But with precision and no lag, ZS handles her pretty easily. I even had a theory where it's easier to fight Rosa when she has Luma because they usually just run awe and stall until Luma comes back. With Luma, they go for more offense, and that's when we can punish.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Nifty trap on Rosa.

Go for tether ledge trumps each time. If she recovers high, rush in and go for a Boost Kick. No good results online because...i's online, but I know this is very effective offline.

Still don't underestimate Rosa. She is still a very cheap character with effortless auto-win buttons. But with precision and no lag, ZS handles her pretty easily. I even had a theory where it's easier to fight Rosa when she has Luma because they usually just run awe and stall until Luma comes back. With Luma, they go for more offense, and that's when we can punish.

If rosa recovers low just hype kick her ass into oblivion

 

[MOM Samus]

I'm not exactly sure what Hype Kick is. Just an idea, but could it be where you do a reverse Boost Kick to guard the ledge?

Someone show me the Hype Kick?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'm not exactly sure what Hype Kick is. Just an idea, but could it be where you do a reverse Boost Kick to guard the ledge?

Someone show me the Hype Kick?

Hype kick 1 is an inward flip kick from offstage onto the stage, and hype kick 2 is the same but from onstage to offstage.
Both are edgeguards with the purpose of spiking the opponent.
Hype kick 2 is much easier to land, but also puts you at a much worse position compared to hype kick 1 on miss.

 

[MOM Samus]

That's it? I just hardly did it cuz my friend would use that D-air after dropping the ledge. If I tried to spike offstage, not good. I do the first one more often.

 

[infiniteV115]

Even if you can't get a spike/stagespike against Rosa, you can just uair her out of her upB and from there she's above you and still offstage, usually has to use another upB to recover.

Also if you upB when facing away from the stage you won't autosnap the edge, rather you'll finish your entire upB animation and then as soon as freefall starts you'll grab the ledge. You can use this to intercept her upB and potentially kill her if you get one of the first few hits, or at the very least hit her with a few multi hits and keep her above you again.

I used to think Rosa wins but after playing the MU, it's either that ZSS just wins the MU or all the Rosas are playing it wrong. I was playing Dabuz in friendlies at Smash Con and we were going about even. He grinds this game and I barely play it and have minimal Rosa exp (a few sets against Red X who's decent, but that's it)

I still feel on paper that Rosa should win but when I play the MU it doesn't feel that way

 

[MOM Samus]

I still think Rosa gives me a hard time. Just so cheap to deal with online. I'm a pretty good ZSS, so what wm I missing?

 

[Neutricity]

You guys, what (non-sheik) match-ups give you a hard time and why?
I play ZSS and there isn't much character variety in my state. Also, I have bandwagon ZSS coming out the woodwork and I hate the ditto so I may pick up one of your suggestions.