Official Stage Discussion

[Sandfall]

Hey everyone!

This thread is the home of a series of weekly stage discussions. Members of the PMDT stage team will be frequenting these threads in order to answer questions and take feedback.

Click here to go to the current discussion!



Older Discussions

1. Skyloft
2. Pokemon Stadium
3. Skyworld
4. Yoshi's Island Brawl
5. Lylat Cruise
6. Halberd
7. Final Destination
8. Frigate Orpheon
9. Hyrule Castle
10. Onett
11. Distant Planet
12. Infinite Glacier
13. Norfair
14. The Lost Stages
15. Battlefield
16. Rumble Falls
17. Flat Zone 2
18. Smashville
19. Castle Siege
20. Kongo Jungle 64
21. Fountain of Dreams
22. Pictochat
23. Delfino's Secret
24. Bowser's Castle

 

[Empyrean]

I've personally always felt that the right platform is too high. Granted, it's not the only thing that makes me not like the stage.

I wouldn't mind if you guys made the stage more casual. Either way, I'm excited to see what you guys come up with!

(btw I love your PS1)

 

[Raziek]

Nova Scotia has always, and will continue to use Skyloft in our stagelists in its current form.

While it would be interesting to see it tweaked, I would prefer to see the idea adapted into a new idea entirely that becomes its own stage. Skyloft still sees regular use, and I know a number of players (including myself) would be disappointed to see it go.

 

[Comeback Kid]

If more casual means hard to avoid hazards and annoying elements that take away from the battle on the stage, I'm pretty much against casualization across the board.

PM Halberd is the perfect level of casual as far as background hazards and transitions are concerned. Interesting elements that don't take away from the stage at all.

I like PM Castle Siege for the same reason: the tipping rock stage and the transition to it may make it casual by definition, but there are no annoying walk-offs to deal with which makes it FUN.

I don't see a demand for super casual stages to counteract the platform triangle competitive stages. There is a nice middleground you guys have found which I hope you don't turn away from now. Page 2 stages don't need bad elements to avoid being played in tournament.

 

[DraconisMarch]

I really like Skyloft except for 2 annoying things:

1. Like someone else said, the far right platform is a little too high. I think making it about the same height as the left one would be perfect.
2. For some characters, namely short ones (Kirby, Pikachu), the little inclines angle some attacks (D-tilts and smashes and Kirby's hammer) down into the ground uselessly. It'd be nice if this didn't happen.

 

[Tero.]

The stage is quite long.
You can get caught under it while recoverying.
Plattforms are quite high but I don't think they are too high.

Biggest issue probably is the slope. I'm all in favor of keeping it but maybe flatten it down a bit.

 

[victinivcreate1]

IMO the stage is a bit too big. I'd say shrink it a little bit and that'll help it out. I also agree with everyone else about the platform thing.

 

[Sandfall]

If more casual means hard to avoid hazards and annoying elements that take away from the battle on the stage, I'm pretty much against casualization across the board.

PM Halberd is the perfect level of casual as far as background hazards and transitions are concerned. Interesting elements that don't take away from the stage at all.

I like PM Castle Siege for the same reason: the tipping rock stage and the transition to it may make it casual by definition, but there are no annoying walk-offs to deal with which makes it FUN.

I don't see a demand for super casual stages to counteract the platform triangle competitive stages. There is a nice middleground you guys have found which I hope you don't turn away from now. Page 2 stages don't need bad elements to avoid being played in tournament.

Don't worry, any casual stage we make is likely going to be more like Halberd in terms of hazards or transitions (i.e. stuff that is easy to avoid and doesn't interfere too much). The goal will be to make something that has unique elements, but is still something you can have a fun or serious match on.

 

[krazyzyko]

Shrink it.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

I think it's a great doubles counterpick. It's probably too big for singles, though.

Also, I wasn't made aware that this was going to be a series of stage discussions. Feel free to pm (or have SOJ do it again) me beforehand when you intend to have another so I can make the subreddit discussions about the proper stage. Discussions get posted Mondays and Thursdays.

 

[Broasty]

Stage is overall, a little too big for singles and the platform on the right is a little too high.

 

[ofna01]

Yeah, the right stage could be lowered a BIT IMO, it's just out of range for roys utilts and can break the flow of combos.

Overall, pretty good stage, but could be better with some tweaks.

 

[JOE!]

A bit of a pet peeve, but the columns that obscure characters behind them bug me. Same with the flowers on DL that can hide things like Snake's mines or certain pikmin stuff...

Could we just get rid of little things like that?

 

[Wolf_]

It's a slope stage, get rid of the slopes, make it flat, shrink it a bit, that's all you need to do

 

[Chevy]

I think the entire stage should just be lowered, there is an obscene amount of space underneath the stage and the top right platform is silly high because of the stage position relative to the blastzones. I like the stairs and little ramps though, up-tilts that reach underneath the left lip are absolutely hilarious. I just wish that grabs didn't break on slopes.

 

[trash?]

I adore the stage, and it's probably the most interesting counterpick PM has, certainly miles ahead of "battlefield but slightly different", as is the norm.

only real change I'd want is less ridiculous blastzones, they're massive compared to the rest of the stage

 

[Frost | Odds]

The blast zones are way too big, but otherwise I quite like it. I could see arguments for making the platforms a bit lower, or overall shrinking the stage, due to circle camping shenanigans, but I think it's hated on a bit more than it deserves.

My biggest pet peeve with the stage is how tough it is to tell exactly where the corners of the platforms are - I have to waveland off that stuff all the damn time with Bowser.

Still quite like it, though. It saddens me that it's not seen often in competitive play.

 

[CBO0tz]

What would you consider replacing Skyloft with?

 

[GFooChombey]

I love this stage because it has the freshest layout of the viable stages. That reason alone will scare people away, but I think it should stay as is. Not to mention the amount of work someone put into designing it shouldn't be completely scrapped. If anything, keep it as a casual stage and add some anti-competitive quirks.

 

[Scatz]

Side blastzones are ok imo. Lower the top blastzone though. Also, lower the right platform just a tad so that it's not a complete commitment for some characters to double jump onto it.

 

[CBO0tz]

I love this stage because it has the freshest layout of the viable stages. That reason alone will scare people away, but I think it should stay as is. Not to mention the amount of work someone put into designing it shouldn't be completely scrapped. If anything, keep it as a casual stage and add some anti-competitive quirks.

I request the Groosenator be fired at certain players from time to time if the stage is to be made anti-competitive.

 

[GFooChombey]

I request the Groosenator be fired at certain players from time to time if the stage is to be made anti-competitive.

I completely agree with this idea. Also, add cuccos.

 

[Player -0]

Random ideas/thoughts, maybe more later. These aren't all related.
- Lower the right platform a little.
- Make the slope that separates the right side of the stage and the left side more gradual or have it so the sides aren't so different in height.
- Maybe a revamp that's somewhat like the second form of Frigate. So towards the center it slopes inwards a bit using the stairs, and have the platform be a little bit higher than Dreamland's from standing at the bottom. This could be a revamp of Frigate though. This would make it a bit difficult for slower characters to get into the center area but it'll help vs. horizontal projectiles if they get the center while in the lead. This would be a weird design, could turn out ok though.
- Lower the ceiling so that the right side kills earlier, especially on the platform, while the left side you have more of a chance. Also possibly increase the blastzone on the left side.
- Make the lower blastzone smaller.
- Completely change right side so there's only a platform that hangs a bit above the stage akin to the old Distant Planet.

Random ideas. Might think of more later.

 

[Kati]

Lower the right platform, see how it plays before changing anything else. Personally I think the slopes under the left platform are unnecessary.

 

[Sandfall]

I request the Groosenator be fired at certain players from time to time if the stage is to be made anti-competitive.

I completely agree with this idea. Also, add cuccos.

Unfortunately, it's not possible to add custom stage hazards with existing modding tools. That would be pretty cool if it were possible though!

 

[otheusrex]

Skyloft sounds like something that would be a good counterpick for floaties playing against spacies, but isn't because the stage is huge and the blast zones are somewhat small so they are hard to Gimp. The Ceiling is lower than you'd think so they can also vertical KO well. And yet, the platforms are too high to be convenient for them so really, it's not a sensible counterpick for spacies or floaties; both parties don't really have much reason to favor it over others in competitive play.

That's something I'd like to see in the future, a little more care as to which stages favor which type of character and making sure that there will always be 1 or two good counterpicks to choose from after bans, no matter what type of character you play

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

My suggestions
1. I think the right platform should be lowered slightly.
2. I I think the lower blastzone can be moved up a bit.
3. I think the slope doesn't have to be quite as steep. Kind of like castle seige. It's there but doesn't really change the flow of battle too much.
4. The small bumps underneath the left platform? Nah. Don't need those.

 

[GFooChombey]

Unfortunately, it's not possible to add custom stage hazards with existing modding tools. That would be pretty cool if it were possible though!

Theoretically, could you put it over a stage that already has hazards (such as Pirate Ship) and edit them? Not a request, just a question.

 

[Sandfall]

Theoretically, could you put it over a stage that already has hazards (such as Pirate Ship) and edit them? Not a request, just a question.

Yes, it's possible to make use of existing hazards in limited ways. It's possible to change stuff like size/location/appearance for some hazards, but it's very limited. Personally, I like experimenting and seeing how far I can push the limits of stage hazards. I've been able to do some pretty cool stuff, but not quite at the level of creating entirely new ones.

 

[Rᴏb]

Pretty much everything has been said about this stage. but I'd like to stress how annoying the stairs are. The way moves work while standing/moving over the stairs is really wonky and make me feel like I don't want to be in the center of the stage which is pretty strange. Also, the right edge is pretty easy to get stuck under.

If I had my way, I'd replace this stage with the casual version someone on kcmm recently made.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

As a legal stage, Skyloft doesn't really do much in my opinion.

It's a kind-of-big stage, and there are so many other kind-of-big stages. It's also got a low ceiling, just like FD and PS2 (which are popular stages of similar size), so it's a little redundant.

There aren't really any unique attributes about the stage that could make it a strong counterpick for certain character archetypes that other stages don't do better, so it makes sense that many people don't include Skyloft in their stagelist, even though it's a very fun and perfectly good stage.

Perhaps if the blastzones were much farther away, the stage could serve as a new counterpick for floaties (since floaties only really have Dreamland and Skyworld as really solid counterpick options). Or something.

 

[4tlas]

I think Metal Cavern or the first transformation of Castle Siege is a lot like what Skyloft should be. Right now its a whole bunch of bad things put together, but is totally fixable.

Current Traits
1. Large Stage, advantage -> fast aggression
2. Close Blastlines, disadvantage -> lightweights
3. Slope, disadvantage -> projectiles
4. High Platforms/Spacious, advantage -> camp

I would say the stage is fairly neutral. Fast characters have an advantage, but so do their counterparts, campy characters. Lightweights have a disadvantage, but those are also usually defensive characters. Camping is good because the large space makes approach options limited, but the slope allows enemies to ignore projectiles if they camp too.

The platform on the right is nearly useless, as it is so far up. It doesn't cause techs/tech chases (too high to interrupt combos), it doesn't give approach options (you have to get up there first to waveland), and it promotes camping (once someone is up there its difficult to approach them because you have to DJ). Lower it a bit, perhaps?

The platform on the left is too short and too close to the edge to be used for positioning. As is, it is solely useful for tech/tech chases. Make it a little bit wider or further away from the edge, and it might be useful for movement. It's also a tiny bit too high.

The slope in the middle is just big enough to screw up some moves, but not quite big enough to separate the 2 halves of the stage. On the left side, projectile characters are at a small disadvantage due to the slope blocking some options, but on the right they are at a huge advantage due to the combination of no platforms, wide stage, and the slope being a non-issue.

Essentially, there is no reason to pick this stage competitively. If I am fast and aggressive, I have better choices. If I am campy or lightweight, I have better choices. If this stage were a starter, I think it would be picked just as often as Battlefield/Smashville/PS2 because I can't imagine anyone has a reason to ban it. But it feels gross to play on. Its like FD in that it essentially has no platforms, but with close blastlines and awkward ledges that scream frustration and a slope that pisses some people off. So nobody wants to pick it.

But I love it! I just think it should be a starter.

 

[Leafeon]

I don't mind how it is currently-- the right side platform can't be reached by one of my character's full hops which is a little irritating, but in general the rest of the stage is fine. Maybe the slopes on the left side of the stage under the platform could be removed, I don't see much reason for it, but my especial problem with the stage is the choppy textures of the rock underneath the stage. It looks like there's been 3 layers just slapped on top of each other from left to right, it's disgusting. Also if it's possible make the pillars in front of the stage transparent or translucent.

Edit: I retract the comment about the left side of the stage's slopes, it makes edge guarding just slightly different and adds a slight uniqueness that I actually kind of like.

 

[G13_Flux]

Atm, there arent really any stages with a low ceiling and farther away blastzones. If something like this were introduced for competitive play, it would open up new options for characters that would benefit from being able to kill early vertically, yet could use the wide slide blast zone to survive longer in that direction. this would change the way players thought about DIing certain angled killing moves if they were heavier or FFers.

in terms of the slope of the stage, i think it gets too much in the way at the moment. i think if the slope was pushed off to one of the sides more, then that would give characters that dont like the slope more of an incentive to try and keep their opponent towards the other side, creating a different type of mentality for stage positioning (at least one thats asymetrical). additionally, characters that may benefit from the slope (be it projectiles, the angle of their attacks coverage, or campiness in general) would try to fight for that side of the stage.

i also think that the platforms should be adjusted to be in plane with each other, and the larger one made a tad smallerthis way they are at the same vertical postion with respect to each other, but there are two different heights you have to jump up to, and could aid for characters with good aerial approaches.

 

[Exodo]

you should remove the slopes both here and metal cavern, that way they both will have more competitive love

 

[GFooChombey]

you should remove the slopes both here and metal cavern, that way they both will have more competitive love

But removing the slope for those stages takes away what makes them unique. They won't bring anything to the table without them.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I think Skyloft is a fantastic stage. It has a multitude of elements (slopes, pillars, the ledges, nonstandard platforms, varied floor height) that make it a unique arena, each of which acts as a tool that either player can, with creativity, use for endless purposes.
Moreover, these elements are nothing to complain about: they don't really promote camping (besides of course the large size, and possibly the high platform which I've personally had no problem with), and are deterministic and non-intrusive (even stationary and non-damaging) so if someone gets screwed by anything on Skyloft they either deserve it for autopiloting or their opponent earned it through planning/execution. There's a word for people who complain about video games being too hard, and PM should not indulge them.

both parties don't really have much reason to favor it over others in competitive play.

This is really what I think all stages should aspire to, starter or counterpick. Stages should maximize the number and variety of elements they contain (insofar as they are deterministic, non-intrusive, and non-campy) so that the stage is more than just a single gimmick for the chooser to exploit, but is rather a multifaceted work of art that allows deep positional games and requires subtle changes in tactics, so that (ideally) any character could potentially use it against any other. Stages should be balanced around the idea that they're a third character in a match, much like the ruleset itself: a neutral, disinterested party that facilitates Smash's dynamics and doesn't redefine them, and whose effects on outcome are reliant less on the given matchup and more on which player plays it better.
A big part of this is asymmetry, which basically doubles the stage-elements. I really think every stage sans Battlefield and FD and maybe PS2 should be asymmetrical, even if it means re-imagining Melee classics. Honestly, I think the whole roster could use a complete, thoughtful revamp, with no inhibitions against change and no preferential treatment for incumbents.

I think the thought process behind stage choice should consist of more than just looking at a few numbers (size, blastzones, platforms yes/no?) and picking the obvious choice (slowsmall, good recoveryfar, chain grabno) which is outright advantageous for your character vs. theirs. The game would be just as deep as and much more balanced than that if we simply declared Battlefied to be the paragon of neutrality and only legal choice, and designed the characters for that paradigm. But we'd be cutting out a major part of what makes Smash so great; instead, stage selection should be a decision of one's preference, and a judgement of the contrary of one's opponent's.

Except for being kinda big (perfect in doubles, though), I think Skyloft epitomizes this philosophy.

 

[Player -0]

That would make it more like a starter than a counterpick. I think that it could be pretty interesting for one.

 

[Sandfall]

Thank you all for the feedback regarding Skyloft!
The next stage we would like to discuss is Pokémon Stadium 1.

As a bonus question: What are your opinions on transforming stages? Are they something that you would like to see more of in the future?

 

[Leafeon]

I don't -hate- transforming stages, but as far as they go (in general) is that if there's any one transformation that I don't like playing competitively on, it's hard for me to ever go there. Even playing just for fun with local friends with items on and 4 person FFAs, it's annoying to choose a stage that just -feels- janky.

Regarding PS1, its initial form is the same as PS2s which does not have transformations. As far as uniqueness I take note of this.
I love the grass transformation, I only have visual problems with it, notably when any character lands in the little stream of water in the middle of the stage. The water effect looks like the entire river came out when you splashed in.
The fire transformation is a little touchy for me-- if I'm on the right side of the stage I don't have much problem with it at all- but the wall that's on the midleft side of the stage just makes it difficult to play on for me. If the left side tree wall became a background ornament just to make the platform look like it's held up by it, I'd by completely fine with it. But that tree makes it jank for me.
The rocky canyon style is straight up jank. If I had a choice, I would never play on it. With a wall on the left side practically blocking the left offstage and ledge, and a hole on the right side of that same wall with yet another wall at the bottom as a sort of protection from getting sent flying-- I don't feel like Shulk. Ain't feelin' it.
I love the water stage. Even if the right side platform is a little high, I don't feel pressed that it's the only place I can go to or that it's a seriously advantageous position for my opponent to stay up there. Slopes on the left side add to the stage, but for consistency's sake I would like another platform on the left side as well. (opinion)
The reason why I don't choose this stage ever is because as long as PS2's out there, I can get the same feel as far as the neutral untransformed stage goes, and PS1 just has janky forms to go along with the decent ones making it hard to choose. You never know who will run in anyway.

IMO, removing fire and rock tranformations would make it a decent stage to play on, but otherwise not a huge fan.

Edit: For the bonus question; I don't mind transforming stages. I encourage them, but if even one of the transformations end up being bad for the particular match up, I don't pick the stage. It's tough to make transformations where transformations could be different each time without one character benefitting more for certain ones-- probably impossible even. I like them, but they're hard to pick generally.