Official Stage Legality Discussion

[infomon]

Except that characters tend to have the advantage from below. So it's rock-paper-scissors with brief predictable moments of cat-'n-mouse. *shrug*

idk I didn't come here to defend rumble falls lol

but we owe it to the community to have a solid, proven reason for it to be banned if it's banned.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I agree. Rumble Falls is a HORRIBLE stage all-around. Even Temple is a more playable stage than that.

How can you say this when you were the same person who wanted us to take WarioWare seriously? I confess I haven't gotten a chance to play the friendlies there (though I haven't forgotten), but you were taken seriously. This claim suggests you have never played on Rumble Falls; good or bad it's obviously a lot better than Temple. On Temple, the winning strategy is dead obvious and totally degenerate. On Rumble Falls, there's real gameplay. How fair the stage is is somewhat non-obvious; I can't make a definitive claim, but what games I have managed to get people to play on this stage with me (it's hard) were non-broken.

I would point out that characters very good at jumping can avoid the main choke point by going around on the right off screen. Of course, they take "in the bubble" damage for that stunt, but it's a neat trick.

As per the whole idea of the choke point thing, it's not really as radical as it seems. Rainbow Cruise is an apt comparison actually. On Rainbow Cruise, you are pretty much forced to approach if you are counterclockwise relative to your enemy. On Rumble Falls, you are pretty much forced to approach if you are below the enemy. The main difference is the lack of a "boat" section on Rumble Falls and the fact that Rumble Falls is primarily vertical while Rainbow Cruise is mainly horizontal, but at least there's never a part as heavy with "jumping" as the middle part of Rainbow Cruise.

The spikes aren't really that deadly once you know the stage; the first one is pretty easy to tech, the second set just requires you to stay away while it's very high on the screen, and the third one is in a place where it basically does nothing.

There was one big candidate for abuse when this stage was discussed a while back. Notably, Kirby's and Meta Knight's up throws can be very powerful here. I did get in some testing back then, and it suggested that it was pretty reasonable to just be careful to avoid that. It's something to keep in mind, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

The other hypothesis for "this stage is broken" was that Peach and Zelda fall too slowly to keep up during the "speed up" section of the course. I played around with them here a lot, and it's just not true. Peach's float kinda pushes her up during the "speed up" section (there's actually a weak force up in general it seems), and Zelda can just aim Farore's Wind low over platforms to not have problems. Actually, in general, aiming your jumps to end as low over platforms as possible kinda makes "speed up" really easy to handle in general. I also messed around with the great jumpers like Ganondorf and Bowser; they had a similarly easy time.

By the way, running forever here just plain doesn't work. You just go to the top of the screen as an approach. If they run, they have to run down, and then the stage forces them to approach into you. It's really not practical to run forever here, even if you are really fast against a really slow opponent. At least, that's what my experiences indicate.

Like I said earlier, it's pretty hard to get high quality opponents to play on Rumble Falls. It's very plausible that tactics develop here that end up being broken. I can only say what experience I have been able to develop suggests that the things that seem broken at a first glance really aren't. It's pretty unlikely this stage will ever get taken seriously and explored deeply, but it's not really so bad. I'm amazed people freak out over it while not freaking out nearly as much over Pirate Ship...

This, of course, is yet another example of taking someone posting a big list of stuff and then getting disagreed with on the thing people disagree with the most and feel most confident arguing against, instead of looking for common ground. Why, in response to that list, would we launch into a big discussion of Rumble Falls? I am not trying to claim the last word on it or anything, but it's probably for the good of all of us if we start to drift elsewhere.

I'm more curious what basis you conclude that those four stages have less of an "effect" on the match than the other candidate starter stages. Final Destination has a big "effect" when the Ice Climbers get their best stage in the first match. Basically, your list of four stages there (a common list) is a list of the four least interactive stages in the game. This seems "neutral", but it's really not. Certain characters (Ice Climbers, Snake, Olimar) benefit from non-interactive stages in general, and other characters (Mr. Game & Watch is the one I know well!) benefit from interactivity. I understand there tends to be a correlation between interactivity and total character bias, but it's not absolute. For maximum fairness, I strongly feel both philosophically and based on my own experiences that you need a seven stage starter list that includes states that interact a bit more. Adding Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1, and Delfino Plaza or Halberd (pick one) really just makes the results all around better after stage striking, and I haven't seen even a single example of a matchup in which 5 stage striking produced better results. On that note, four stage starter lists are invalid by definition; it must be an odd number (for real fairness, you need an odd number other than three; I'll elaborate on this point if someone cares).

About mind focused on the stage, your mind should always be focused on the stage 100% of the time on every stage. It's present at every moment you are battling; seeing exactly what;s going on in the game is something you just do anyway. For my part, I just think of the fight as a coherent whole, and I am always looking for any element in the fight where I can get an advantage; I don't think of "this part is what the stage is doing" and "this part is what my opponent is doing". Also, given that every stage with one possible exception is insanely trivial to survive on completely undamaged for hours without an opponent present (the rain on WarioWare is the only tricky thing to avoid alone), I'm really not sure how the stages are threatening you. When you get hurt, it's all your opponent. Your opponent may do it by hitting you with a damaging move, or your opponent may have pressured or tricked you into a hazard. It's not really different; you get hurt when your opponent is succeeding. You don't just take damage out of nowhere or anything like that...

 

[Kamikaze*]

The only thing I'd consider an argument would be the one spike that has enormous knockback in the beginning of the stage. But even then, that could be argued to be super obvious after playing once.

I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed if someone up-threw you into the spike to make you lose your stock.

Stop trolling, and/or provide any argument ever. I'm going to start reporting your posts because they contribute nothing to this thread, and are thus spam.

I am not trolling. I'm just in shock that he thinks rumble falls can be a legal stage.

It is a stage with a auto death spike floating in the middle of the air which anyone can be thrown into, you have to constantly jump on this stage, meaning characters with strong aerial speed will **** far too hard. Those two reasons alone should get it banned.

 

[Linkshot]

May I present to you the art of Ukemi?

Sure, it's harder than in Melee. Overall, though, Melee was a harder game. So the first sentence of this paragraph becomes invalid.

Double Posting is a form of trolling.

 

[Ryusuta]

That was an incredibly well-reasoned argument, AA. I still have SERIOUS doubts about RF's validity, but I suppose more research is never a bad thing under these circumstances.

 

[deepseadiva]

This, of course, is yet another example of taking someone posting a big list of stuff and then getting disagreed with on the thing people disagree with the most and feel most confident arguing against, instead of looking for common ground. Why, in response to that list, would we launch into a big discussion of Rumble Falls? I am not trying to claim the last word on it or anything, but it's probably for the good of all of us if we start to drift elsewhere.

I think it's best that we focus on smaller pieces like this. We might reach a conclusion of sorts where as otherwise discussion gets vague, uninteresting, and then ultimately, inactive.

I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed if someone up-threw you into the spike to make you lose your stock.

You could always avoid it. It's pretty obvious where it is. >____>

The only problem with it is that it might truly be too strong a hazard. I mean it kills at ~15% and in the early parts of the match. However obvious, is it fair to really pay that much for a missed tech?

 

[Kamikaze*]

I think it's best that we focus on smaller pieces like this. We might reach a conclusion of sorts where as otherwise discussion gets vague, uninteresting, and then ultimately, inactive.



You could always avoid it. It's pretty obvious where it is. >____>

The only problem with it is that it might truly be too strong a hazard. I mean it kills at ~15% and in the early parts of the match. However obvious, is it fair to really pay that much for a missed tech?

Hell no it's not fair, ban that ***** of a stage.

Starter:

FD
Smashville
BF

CP:

Yoshi's Island
Poke Stadium 1
Brinstar
Frigate
Halberd
Castle Siege
Lylat

Strict stage lists are the way to go.

 

[Linkshot]

If you got HIT in 64, you lost a stock. I think that's more unfair than missing a tech.

Again, you should know where the spike is and be able to avoid getting nailed by it.

EDIT: Certain characters can go to the right side of the wall and end up on the platform above, I believe, COMPLETELY AVOIDING THE SPIKE.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Kamikaze* has explained his philosophy before. I disagree with it and think it's a really bad approach to deciding stage legality, but it's perfectly acceptable for him to advocate his positions. He has a post a while back that pretty much articulates exactly what he's looking for in stages; I don't think he's reached the point of spam other than with that double post which is honestly a pretty petty offense (one single double post when you have no history of double posting is not a big deal; he probably didn't know the forum code to do multiple quotes in the same post... which will need to be used next time).

REGARDLESS, mini-modding is not okay. I actually don't care on a personal level and it didn't go very far so I'm not going to take direct action on it, but don't do it again. Seriously. If you have a problem with someone's posts that you think I'm overlooking, feel free to PM me (note: I have been reading every single new post in this forum since being modded). Report the posts if that option doesn't satisfy you. Don't mini-mod.

I have actual things about the neverending discussion to add too, but I want to get this part out there to nip any issues in the bud.

 

[Kamikaze*]

You know what this discussion is just ridiculous. If deciding stage lists were left up to you guys, 75m would end up legal.

 

[Linkshot]

Hah, no. I'll never play competitively on 75m.

 

[bobson]

There was one big candidate for abuse when this stage was discussed a while back. Notably, Kirby's and Meta Knight's up throws can be very powerful here. I did get in some testing back then, and it suggested that it was pretty reasonable to just be careful to avoid that. It's something to keep in mind, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

From my own testing, it proved fairly trivial to avoid. It doesn't work everywhere, and once you're aware of the general layout of the stage, it's not hard to just fight elsewhere until the threat passes.

I'm more curious what basis you conclude that those four stages have less of an "effect" on the match than the other candidate starter stages. Final Destination has a big "effect" when the Ice Climbers get their best stage in the first match. Basically, your list of four stages there (a common list) is a list of the four least interactive stages in the game. This seems "neutral", but it's really not. Certain characters (Ice Climbers, Snake, Olimar) benefit from non-interactive stages in general, and other characters (Mr. Game & Watch is the one I know well!) benefit from interactivity. I understand there tends to be a correlation between interactivity and total character bias, but it's not absolute. For maximum fairness, I strongly feel both philosophically and based on my own experiences that you need a seven stage starter list that includes states that interact a bit more. Adding Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1, and Delfino Plaza or Halberd (pick one) really just makes the results all around better after stage striking, and I haven't seen even a single example of a matchup in which 5 stage striking produced better results. On that note, four stage starter lists are invalid by definition; it must be an odd number (for real fairness, you need an odd number other than three; I'll elaborate on this point if someone cares).

This is a very good point which I hadn't considered. Interactivity in general, though, does have a different effect on the match than the layout of a static stage. On Halberd, for example, if the laser starts pointing at you, then you are forced to avoid it. You immediately lose one option (not avoiding it) for no reason other than the laser randomly picked you; though it may be around the same caliber, it's a different effect than Diddy Kong being good on Final Destination, and arguably a less fair one because while both players should know which characters do well on Final Destination and stage strike accordingly, neither can predict which one the laser's going to target beforehand.
I'll add explanations for the starters in the second iteration.

You also didn't comment on my statement of the whole, "It's always vertically moving, speeds up randomly, and weak spikes can kill you" thing.

Here's my reply: so?

And don't just say, "Wrong" to my statement about the stage providing nothing new and advantageous to different characters, actually back up your claims.

I was in the middle of typing up an argument to that, but I hit preview and Meno had already taken care of it, so I didn't bother.

Don't weight banning stages and banning characters as the same thing. They're completely different.

Why?
Why should we consider banning a stage "less bad" than banning anything else?

It's whether or not, during a high-level of play with money on the line, your mind is too focused on the stage every 5 seconds to actually fight your opponent without horridly abusing said stage.

Your mind should be focused on the match as a whole. This includes your opponent, the stage, the percentages, the stocks, the timer, and yourself.

The only problem with it is that it might truly be too strong a hazard. I mean it kills at ~15% and in the early parts of the match. However obvious, is it fair to really pay that much for a missed tech?

It's not so much paying for a missed tech as it is paying for somehow bumbling into it in the first place. It's like a Warlock Punch; if you EVER get hit by it, you're probably going to die, but, frankly, you deserved it for being hit by a Warlock Punch.

Strict stage lists are the way to go.

Why do you allow Castle Siege and Brinstar?

Hah, no. I'll never play competitively on 75m.

I've played competitively on 75m.
I will never ever do it again.



Can someone please seriously explain to me what is bad about Distant Planet?

 

[bigman40]

Just a question I'd like to know. What are people's thoughts on Yoshi's Island Pipes?

 

[Linkshot]

It's comparable to Corneria except with a walkoff instead of lasers.

Give and take, really.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Just a question I'd like to know. What are people's thoughts on Yoshi's Island Pipes?

Ban it.

 

[bigman40]

Ban it.

I want reasons instead of this stupid answer. This doesn't promote any kind of discussion.

It's comparable to Corneria except with a walkoff instead of lasers.

Give and take, really.

I was thinking that also, but then every stage I think about always has D3 having fun on it (stupid *** CG). Honestly, D3 alone is the main guy that stops most of the stage diversity (not alot, but a decent amount of it).

 

[Linkshot]

I think Kamikaze's only goal here is to prevent the stage list from turning away from conservative. :/

Anyway, Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a very interesting stage. It definitely would promote different styles of gameplay. There are platforms to avoid D3, and he can only CG off the one side.

Counterpick.

Also.

Delfino is a better starter than Lylat. In fact, it's my favourite starter. There's a ton of diversity, and the platform layout constantly shifts. In the end, it really gives every character the same advantage. Every walk off is entirely avoidable.

Delfino for permanent Starter.

 

[fkacyan]

It's comparable to Corneria except with a walkoff instead of lasers.

Give and take, really.

Corneria has a wall, Yoshi's doesn't.

Both stages are pretty bad, though.

EDIT: D3 isn't the only character with chaingrabs. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the slanted stage actually extended the CGs some characters like Pikachu have.

 

[bigman40]

I think Kamikaze's only goal here is to prevent the stage list from turning away from conservative. :/

Anyway, Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a very interesting stage. It definitely would promote different styles of gameplay. There are platforms to avoid D3, and he can only CG off the one side.

Counterpick.

Also.

Delfino is a better starter than Lylat. In fact, it's my favourite starter. There's a ton of diversity, and the platform layout constantly shifts. In the end, it really gives every character the same advantage. Every walk off is entirely avoidable.

Delfino for permanent Starter.

I'm assuming the D3 can CG up the hills also. So he would be able to CG you to death on the right, and CG you to the left, then Fthrow you to probably get a cheap kill if your damage is high enough. This would mean that you would have to only approach him on the left side to avoid getting CGed to the right.

Then again, if the middle blocks are taken out, then he can't CG you to your death.....Does he fall down the hole if he Dthrows on the blocks?

@Thynocide:

I think that Pika's CG isn't gonna be extended on the slope cause it'll release them at the same height (he would just end up CGing them normally) as it would when you're on flat surface.

While D3 isn't the only one who can CG, he poses the most threat to stages since he can travel with it.

 

[fkacyan]

Infzy: You may find this interesting, seeing as you don't choose stage lists based on popularity.

Guys, the stage list is final. Its done.

Those complaining about stage strike and saying "BUT USE 3 STAGES!" Guess what? You can strike 2 stages, so get rid of whatever 2 stages aren't part of your favorite three. In 5 stage's Lylat gets played less than Pokemon stadium from what I've observed, which is what the decision was largely based on. There isn't much point in including a stage in stage strike that will likely never be played.

No rule set can match every region exactly. Considering the only complaints seem to be nitpicking the stage list then the ruleset does quite fine. NJ people (DMbrandon) will complain about any list that has more than 8-10 stages, but if you make a list like that then every other region would complain because its to narrow. New Jersey is in the minority, looking at the broader spectrum this list includes basically every stage 4/5ths of the country uses.

Face it, there is no way to make everyone happy. If the biggest complaints are 5 neutrals instead of 3 and the inclusion of Jungle Japes (and omg castle seige/delfino? Wow, those are on at like every single tournament, complaining about them basically means you only want to play on FD/SV/BF, if that's the case then you basically remove the entire element of stages from Smash, and that's kinda a big deal) then this ruleset is fine.

You guys get 1 stage ban so if your only problem is one stage on that list then just use your ban on it.

 

[Kamikaze*]

I think Kamikaze's only goal here is to prevent the stage list from turning away from conservative. :/

Well...Duh.

 

[infomon]

Infzy: You may find this interesting, seeing as you don't choose stage lists based on popularity.

Yeah.... sounds like he tried to minimize complaints.

That's rather unfortunate.

It results in pandering to the opinions of the vocal.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Anyway, Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a very interesting stage. It definitely would promote different styles of gameplay. There are platforms to avoid D3, and he can only CG off the one side.

Counterpick.

Also.

Delfino is a better starter than Lylat. In fact, it's my favourite starter. There's a ton of diversity, and the platform layout constantly shifts. In the end, it really gives every character the same advantage. Every walk off is entirely avoidable.

Delfino for permanent Starter.

Saying that something's avoidable isn't a very good reason to put something in CP/Starter by itself. Everything's avoidable. It's how much of a problem the thing is and how easy it is to avoid which is what matter.

While Delfino has a ton of diversity, this is no reason to put it in starter. Neutral stages are supposed to be as even as possible, and a stage with water/walk-offs/walls...even though they're temporary, it's still too favourable to some people to be neutral. Game and watch, Toon Link, and Ike are amazing in the water. D3 and Falco are good with the walkoffs. Game and Watch, Marth, D3, and really anyone with a wall-infinite are good with the walls. This, obviously, isn't a neutral environment for both characters, so this stage shouldn't be neutral.

I don't know enough about Yoshi's Island Pipes, but as far as I know and with the people that have posted, I'm leaning to ban. But I haven't played enough on this stage or experimented with it to know.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think that's a bad definition of starter; it would only be appropriate for a tournament in which you would expect to randomly play on any of the starters (which should be no tournaments; random stages suck). I think simply making the set of stages that produces the best final result in the stage strike process is a better strategy.

I can demonstrate the flaw of a five stage list easily: the best three Ice Climbers stages on most stage lists are Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), and Smashville. They have the least jumping around of any stages and simultaneously have nothing to interrupt chaingrabs. With 5 stage striking, Ice Climbers are guaranteed to win the set in best of 3 if they can only win on those stages; effectively they win if they can win on their own counterpicks. It's especially severe for a character like Mr. Game & Watch who dislikes Final Destination and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) even before you consider the Ice Climbers. With 7 stage striking, the enemy may strike all three of those and then play on the best stage for the Ice Climbers in that particular matchup out of the four remaining stages which is highly likely to be more fair.

Can you demonstrate matchups in which 7 stage striking produces worse results? I've asked this several times and never gotten an answer. Even if a stage like Delfino Plaza were struck every time (my experiences suggest that 7 stage striking doesn't actually tend to strike any stage all the time, incidentally), the mere fact that including it lets me strike all three of those stages against Ice Climbers is enough justification for me.

 

[bigman40]

I don't know enough about Yoshi's Island Pipes, but as far as I know and with the people that have posted, I'm leaning to ban. But I haven't played enough on this stage or experimented with it to know.

If you don't know much about it, then why state what you're for? It's better to state what you know about it before you say what you're for.

Sry for double post, but upon checking the CGs on YI (pipes), D3 cannot CG up or down the hill on most characters. I don't exactly know where the limit is, but if your character slides equal, or less than Bowser's slide from the Dthrow, then you'll still get CGed. Falco also has the same problems for this too.

I'm not exactly sure about Pika's CG, however the slants don't seem to affect how his CG works. He still CGs like it's on a normal, flat stage.

Also, the blocks in the middle prevent all CGs from happening (Dthrows anyway) except for Falcos.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Use the Edit button.

Anyway, I think Bowser is the most affected since he's the heaviest character. You might want to check Peach (most traction) as well as DK, King Dedede, and Snake (other very heavy characters).

Also, I recall noticing that King Dedede's chaingrab on Marth didn't seem to work right on Distant Planet's slope, but I didn't get a chance to try it against a competent human. If you do have a good testing buddy, looking into whether the same issues apply there would be totally amazing.

 

[bigman40]

D3 ****s over YI Pipes, and he'll **** over Distant Planet too. There isn't enough slide from the ones who get CGed to get out. If you can DI his Dthrow, then it'll possibly lower the amount of characters he can CG, but it'll still **** over a decent amount of characters.

 

[buenob]

LOL i try to stay away from this debate, but I keep an eye on it and every once and a while people take a step back, and I have to point it out...

Neutral stages are supposed to be as even as possible

this is an archaic way of thinking, if you don't think of the list as a whole, you're going to end up with a lot of problems

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

King Dedede doesn't ruin Distant Planet at all. If he can chaingrab you up that slope, don't approach him on that sloped surface from that side. That's actually really easy; the way the stage works you kinda always want to be on the right anyway, and about half of the ground is totally unconnected to the walk-off. Like I have said before, if permanent walk-offs are a broken feature in general, then Distant Planet is the melee Corneria of this game (permanent walls were generally considered a broken feature in melee). It has a typically broken feature but implements it in such a way so that it's fair. I'm not really sure why Distant Planet is usually lumped in with Yoshi's Island (Melee); regardless of the legality of either, Distant Planet is a whole lot more fair and generally way less easy to abuse.

I'm also not sure why you edited your post that had actual information into that...

Anyway, about Yoshi's Island (Melee), it's a hard stage for me to talk about since back in melee I had a bunch of really horrible matches there (my group of friends I always played melee with had a VERY liberal stage list... largely thanks to me actually). I actually really dislike this stage on a personal level which is not something I can say about many stages. Anyway, from what I have gleaned, it has a lot of character bias and super campy but nothing really fundamentally unfair unless you consider the walk-off that way. If Marth gets a lead on you here and starts camping the far left, I don't think most of the cast has a very practical answer (most projectiles lose to him just ducking). A lot of characters are really hard to approach there, but I think Marth all around gains the most from that position. Snake is really good here too; he can abuse the slopes with his grenades in a very silly and obnoxious way, and from the defensive position on either extreme of the stage, his up tilt is easier than usual to hit with and kills at percentages that make you cringe. Of course, on this stage, everything is a kill move anyway; I have one replay where I got a kill with Mr. Game & Watch's up tilt here... The last thing to note is that camping under the blocks to limit enemy approaches and grant teching opportunities is huge here, but I don't have enough experience to be able to make good claims about who wins and loses at the block games. It's one of those stages I would say should be legal on the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but it's not exactly a motivating stage to fight for since it's really an awful level in terms of being interesting or fun and wouldn't really surprise me to develop to just continue to show more and more character bias.

 

[bigman40]

Alright then, He can CG Ike, Marth, ROB, Wario, Link, Ganon, Falcon, Lucario, DK, D3, Peach, Snake, Wolf, Ivysaur, Charizard, ToonLink, Sonic, Ness, Lucas, and Bowser all can get CGed up the hill for a stock.

 

[infomon]

Alright then, He can CG Ike, Marth, ROB, Wario, Link, Ganon, Falcon, Lucario, DK, D3, Peach, Snake, Wolf, Ivysaur, Charizard, ToonLink, Sonic, Ness, Lucas, and Bowser all can get CGed up the hill for a stock.

vids or it didn't happen

ie. if Lucas is getting out-camped by a D3 chilling on the left side of the stage during the sunny parts, I'd say the Lucas is doing something wrong. I'm no expert tho~

 

[Kamikaze*]

There are too many liberals in this thread.

 

[bobson]

Funny, I'd say there are too many conservatives.

 

[Ryusuta]

Alright then, He can CG Ike, Marth, ROB, Wario, Link, Ganon, Falcon, Lucario, DK, D3, Peach, Snake, Wolf, Ivysaur, Charizard, ToonLink, Sonic, Ness, Lucas, and Bowser all can get CGed up the hill for a stock.

If he's facing the right direction and they get grabbed facing that way on the right half of the screen. Still a dangerous situation to be in, but not impossible.

And remember, the same thing applies here as the unified anti-IC strategy.

 

[bigman40]

vids or it didn't happen

ie. if Lucas is getting out-camped by a D3 chilling on the left side of the stage during the sunny parts, I'd say the Lucas is doing something wrong. I'm no expert tho~

Why do you need vids? You can do it in training mode on 1/4 mode, and if you see the shield come up, then they can get out. It's that simple. The only reason why it might not land all the time is because the timing is harder to land than normally CGing on flat land.

The best characters that get a plus from it is Diddy, and Luigi. Luigi can still get infinited on the small parts that are normal, but everywhere else is safe for him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Training mode doesn't work. It adds frames to attacks in order to keep them looking smooth in slo-mo.

 

[bigman40]

Training mode doesn't work. It adds frames to attacks in order to keep them looking smooth in slo-mo.

Well, I don't feel like going over the testing again. But if it's that big of a deal, then the number of people that'll get CGed will get reduced. So someone else can do it.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Don't compare this to getting grabbed by IC's. IC's are the EASIEST character to avoid getting chaingrabbed, because not only is their grab range one of if not the shortest, but Nana also has to be right next to Popo for you to get chaingrabbed. Seperate them, and there's no worry.

Honest question: Why do you think Yoshi's Island Pipes should be legal? There are obvious hazards and the stage greatly favours one character. With these problems (walk-off slope, pit in the middle, small blast zones) why should this stage be allowed? How, in any way, does this change the style of gameplay to mix up the metagame?

Statements like, "The hazards are avoidable and the stage promotes different styles of gameplay," are RIDICULOUSLY vague. How exactly does the stage promote a different style of gameplay that an existing legal/CP/less hazardous stage doesn't? Are the hazards easily avoiable or do they present a constant problem and awareness?

Until someone tells me how exactly the stage promotes a different style of play without the hazards being too problematic, I'm sticking with my decision that Yoshi's Island Pipes should be banned.

 

[fkacyan]

Funny, I'd say there are too many conservatives.

I'd say there are too many stubborn people. And too many people labeling people.

WAIT A SEC-

 

[Mythic02]

As a Dedede main, i have to say it's hard to chaingrab up hills. The opponent hits the ground quicker and has time to react. Unless The opponent chooses not to do anything in this time period you can escape out of the chain grab going up hills.

The small blast zones help people with trouble killing finally kill people.

As for distant planet, It even gives you toys to camp with while dedede is trying to get you to get between him and the blast zone.

The truth is, you can avoid getting grabbed. Most characters that Dedede can chain grab have projectiles. You can use those when dedede is trying to lure you near a walkoff. People like Ike can use there range to space far enough away from dedede's grab. Wario even has air camping. You can direct the fight away from the hill that already gives Dedede so much problems.