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Official Stage Legality Discussion

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Ryusuta

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Contradictory? Please show me where I contradicted myself O_o.
I was replying to you. You said PS2 would be banned because it has an icy floor and I disagreed, because its icy floor doesn't last forever unlike Summit's.
No, I meant contradicting ME. You seem to have made that your purpose in life in multiple threads. If you'd prefer, I could use the word "contrary," "argumentative," or "combative." Either way, I'm just saying that you don't have to instantly gainsay every single point I make.
 

abhishekh

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The SBR's official stage list and reasons why each are banned.
If you need elaboration on any of them, I'll play you in a competitive set on Wifi on them and I'm sure you'll get the gist of it around the third timeout or 3stock.


Hah, thanks. Am i the only person who feels "Fighting the stage" is not a valid reason...?


And wouldn't it be better if we only banned the stage for some characters (I.e. DDD cannot choose Bridge and Fox cannot choose Hyrule Temple)

Dunno, a lot of the stages they banned were the fun ones <<


And with items, how does it matter? You can ban final smashes, pokeballs, assist trophies and anything that impairs vision or pretty much anything to do with chance (Containers) if you want...But otherwise why not ? Oh and you may want to ban the fan as well...
 

deepseadiva

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And with items, how does it matter? You can ban final smashes, pokeballs, assist trophies and anything that impairs vision or pretty much anything to do with chance (Containers) if you want...But otherwise why not ? Oh and you may want to ban the fan as well...
There's actually a small items-on scene in Brawl.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

Most of the community really, really dislikes them though. It's just become the standard.
 

AvaricePanda

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I think I may have just won over a supporter in the Luigi's / Norfair ban camp.

=D
this.

I'll post more when I get back, but basically, Jiggs on Norfair can constantly either always have invincibility or priority if she pounds from ledge to ledge, and MK, Oli, and probably many more characters that haven't been tested all **** on Mansion.

MK can constantly tornado until you're high enough percent, then like nair or dsmash or shuttle loop or whatever and you're done. Oli can abuse his upsmash like nothing else. Other characters probably have more messed up strategies like this on Mansion, I'll experiment more. But basically, I played Thio online and asked for him to play as gay as possible on these stages...he hit like a total of 3 buttons and one, and my character (Diddy) doesn't have as much trouble against nado as like DK or Mario or whoever.

but yeah, I'll elaborate more when I get back.
 

abhishekh

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@Meno


Thanks.


And its pretty sad that people hate items so much...Either way, I like how captain falcon does well with the beam sword. With the two hits and huge range and all...
 

Ryusuta

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Speaking of replays, I've done some experimentation with a friend on Rumble Falls, and as soon as I get the videos adjusted the way I want them (they're currently running too fast at the moment), I'll upload them along with some of my thoughts on the stage. The preview version is that I really think Link is onto something with the stage, but there are a few points that I feel are causefor some concern. Overall, however, I actually believe this could make a viable and more importantly USEFUL counterpick for some characters.
 

Linkshot

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Exactly, Sir Orion ^^ That's what I've been saying.

Since horizontal projectiles get stopped by the many layers of platforms, and vertical projectiles get stopped by the platforms themselves, characters that have trouble approaching Falco, D3, Tink, etc. can easily fight back now.

I was playing Tink VS my cousin's Falcon and it was a very even matchup. My arrows were completely useless and my boomerang barely less so.
 

buenob

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most of the reason I am not for the luigi's mansion ban is that when KingAce and Ally faced for the first time (Ally's first non-online tournament) it was epic, and Ace (quite good MK player) took him to luigi's and we were all like "oh wow free win time" but ally won it as snake... He dealt with the tornado spam under the ledges, and he played smart...

not everyone is ally, but it's possible to win against an MK if you're smart
--
and bramble falls... argh... again it's not that I particularly dislike it, it's just that RC does it way better... there are certain parts where you have no choice in where you need to be, such as above the "elevator" at the beginning where both people need to squeeze through the narrow opening to get up... it's things like that which I think will ultimately 'break' the level... imagine a great MK player guarding that entrance... between shuttle loop and tornado and dair it'd be almost impossible to get through... and you're on a timer, you only will get one or two chances, and eventually you'd just have to take the tornado to get through, so you _must_ get hit by your opponent... it's the same reason I think port town shouldn't be legal, there are just portions of the level without enough choice... it comes down to who controls that zone as being the only viable strategy
 

Linkshot

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I'm quite surprised that you're complaining about that, since you play ROB.

ROB can very easily just move to the side of the wall and go "Ohai BEEEEEEM" (as in, go around the wall to avoid the chokepoint).
 

bobson

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and bramble falls... argh... again it's not that I particularly dislike it, it's just that RC does it way better... there are certain parts where you have no choice in where you need to be, such as above the "elevator" at the beginning where both people need to squeeze through the narrow opening to get up... it's things like that which I think will ultimately 'break' the level... imagine a great MK player guarding that entrance... between shuttle loop and tornado and dair it'd be almost impossible to get through... and you're on a timer, you only will get one or two chances, and eventually you'd just have to take the tornado to get through, so you _must_ get hit by your opponent... it's the same reason I think port town shouldn't be legal, there are just portions of the level without enough choice... it comes down to who controls that zone as being the only viable strategy
The barriers don't extend outside of the blast zones; go around. Most characters can, especially when it's in a speed-up segment.
 

fkacyan

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Play me. I always come equipped with my infinite replay time code and I want to see this for myself.
Sounds good, I'll try and play you tonight if WoW doesn't end up working - If it does, it's progression raiding, baby.

Sir Orion, stop posting in blue. I have to strain my eyes terribly to read it, as in it actually hurts.
 

fkacyan

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Get a better monitor.
My monitor is fine; it looks the same from two completely different makes that I've checked. The hue, shade, and tint combined with the background color make it difficult to read without highlighting it.

I don't see what your complaint is; it's not like blue adds any value to your posts.
 

Ryusuta

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My monitor is fine; it looks the same from two completely different makes that I've checked. The hue, shade, and tint combined with the background color make it difficult to read without highlighting it.

I don't see what your complaint is; it's not like blue adds any value to your posts.
You're either dichromat or have bad resolution. Either way, this is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
 

Linkshot

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Pokemon Stadium should not be banned under any circumstances. It warns you when Fire and Grass are appearing, so you should know where to run to in order avoid infinites.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Linkshot isn't the only one who can bring solid data to the table when talking about stages. (though apparently bobson is the only one who can pictures, as these are his that he PM'd to me. Thanks. XD) All times were taken with the stopwatch in my iPod Nano. >_>

Please note this is my INITIAL findings about Pirate Ship. I'm still recovering from a virus that has been bugging me since last Wednesday, and left me so sick I slept through most of my long weekend, so I'm not up to 100% yet. I'm going to do some more testings later, such as the different hitboxes on the cannonballs (one is 35% and lower knockback, the other is in the 50s and is much higher knockback, but appears to have a much smaller hitbox compared to the weaker hit as I only saw it in my testings once so far)








These pictures are basic ones of the playing field and it's large boundaries. Very large I should add. Which is neither a negative or a positive. Boundaries should NEVER be a deciding factor in a stage's position on the list. It doesn't matter if the boundaries are Green Greens or Pirate Ship: the ratios for who is flat out KOing who and when stay the exact same when looking at each individual distance. It's flat out foolish to judge a stage based on that. Not even Hyrule Temple and New Pork City are banned on those reasons (they are banned for circling, and tunnels of life)

Moving on pass that rarely mentioned point that some people try to use to get this stage banned, I'll move onto the stage changes.

In total, there are 4 differences besides "Neutral". I shall be calling them "The Rock" (when the ship is beached on the giant rock, from the moment the warning sign appears to the moment the ship is back fully in the water), "The Wind" (From the time the tornado appears in the background, to the time the ship is back in the water), "Cannons" (The pirate platforms fire cannonballs at you, from when the platform is first visible to when it's no longer visible OR it's last cannonball is finished, whichever comes last), and "The King" (Side ship comes to the back. From the time it appears to the time it disappears)

I'll start with the least complained about one first of all, The King. He doesn't do anything to heavily affect gameplay, and lasts 16.5 seconds. People can technically hold someone in a grab as the ship leaves, toss them at the last second, and get the heck off. But you can't really force that event to occur. It's 100% player's choice if a KO occurs in that method.

Next up: The Rock. From sign to off water it lasts roughly 23 seconds. Again, this doesn't do much to affect gameplay. Wall infinities are both limited by time and the shape of the ship's hull. Ike's Fthrow infinity for example only lasts to 60% instead of 100% on most characters. The front of the ship itself is closer to the top blastzone (a non-issue), and the shape of the rock helps to reduce projectile camping. The slant of the ship does the same thing if fighting on there instead of the rock.

The Wind. From the moment the tornado appears in the background to the moment the tornado starts to pick up the ship, players have 5.6 seconds to get out of the water and back onto the ship. The ship rises into the air and hovers in all for 5.8 seconds with no slow fall affect. The pirate ship then falls back into the water, causing slow fall to occur for 4.4 seconds. As in: the slow falling section is the shortest part of the whole wind stage. The wind stage on PS2 is much longer then 4.4 seconds. 4.4 seconds translates into roughly 265 frames to "spam" your aerials moves without touching the ground. Meaning in theory that someone like Ike could preform 5 Bairs during that time, or MK can use.....a heck of a lot of Uairs. That assumes however frame perfect timing on the jump off the stage and on hitting the buttons. This short lived aspect lends itself nicely to CPing, and is far from a bannable aspect otherwise PS2 would be banned.

The last major transformation is The Cannons. Which everyone loves to whine about, yay! The entire gauntlet of cannonballs lasts from 16 seconds to 22 seconds (Depending if it's 3 cannonballs all the way to 5 cannonballs). The cannonballs themselves gives themselves away with a loud, clearly hearable "boom", followed by anywhere between 2.3-3.5 seconds to dodge the large blue, smoke trailing orbs which are clearly visible. Thats 140ish-210ish frames to avoid them. It's quite hard to get "forced" to be hit by once of these, besides the fact that some of them completely miss the fighting area you are in, and about as many hit beside the area you are fighting in as actually in the area you are fighting in. It would have to be ZSS's Neutral B or Dsmash, or someone holding onto you and thus you both get hit by the cannonballs. While the hitbox is fairly large:



You should have more then enough time to move out of the way. It should also be noted that the hitbox doesn't last long at all, so it would be VERY hard to time throws to force the opponent to go through the area where the cannonball is going to hit assuming you could grab them in time, and judge where the cannonball will land.

The catapult is a work in progress as it the time being on the front of the ship before it comes up is random, as is it's time before firing. I did note however that it does not come up if the rock or wind is going to soon. In about 15 seconds I would estimate.

As for frequency of events and how much time you get to play on the neutral stage: I have currently gone through 3 five minute sessions, timing when events occured. The King was not counted, as it does not affect the match enough to worry about it. Times were rounded both in duration and time between, so don't start yelling at me if they are slightly off.

Session 1: Wind 1:05 seconds in. Another Wind 58 seconds after the first one was completely finished. The Rock 58 seconds after the Wind was finished, and then the cannons 47 seconds after the Rock was finished. That's about 53 seconds or less then 1/5 of the time dealing with a different stage then neutral.

Session 2: Rock at 1:14. Another rock 2 minutes after the first one, and a wind 1.04 after the second rock. Meaning that the stage was different for 61 seconds, or about 1/5 of the time.

Session 3: Cannons at 38 seconds in, The Wind 1:22 after, another Wind 1:30 after that one, and the cannons did pop up 1:24 after the second wind, but 5 minutes was up before a cannonball struck the ship, so it's time of occurrence is not counted in full and instead only adds in 2 seconds. Which equals 47 seconds or somewhere between 1/6 and 1/5 of the time on a non-neutral part of the stage.

It should be noted you always have at least 30 seconds of neutral before the stage changes. And that is as far as I have gotten so far. I will be looking more into:

-Events during a 5 minutes period. (More sessions)
-The Cannonballs themselves
-How quickly the water pulls you into the front of the ship (AKA how brain dead you have to be to get hit by the front of the ship of your own accord.)
 

Linkshot

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The rock is actually a really big thing. If you have a moving aerial, you can push yourself under the water and inside the rock. The front-bottom and entire bottom of the Pirate Ship (excluding back-bottom) are killing spikes. If you get footstooled in the water at the back, swim left, and touch the bottom of the boat, you will die painfully.

What's weird is the rock is completely hollow, yet you can't go under the King of Red Lions at all, no matter how far below it you are.

Also during the rock, there's about 1 second where if you land on the right tip of the rock, the ship will spike you on the ground (read: you're on the ground and get killed upwards. Instantly. Wall-jumping might be possible under odd circumstances), and then for, I think 3 seconds after, the bottom of the ship flinches you and deals 5 damage.

Direct hits from a cannonbomb do 50% and will instant kill you if you don't DI + Momentum Cancel. Grazes do 35% and minor knockback (about the length of Ness bThrow at 15%). You are completely safe from all cannonbombs by standing on the top platform.
 

bobson

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Anyone with an aerial that can move them deep underwater can do this (last half) and stall forever (or at least until the wind segment), although I believe the opponent can simply move the camera out far enough so that they'll start taking boundary damage. The weak hitbox of the cannonballs has a fixed knockback and can never kill; the catapult, while not having fixed knockback, has such a low increase rate that the only time it can kill with DI is at some ridiculous percentage like 900.

Stalling under the rudder is fun to do in Basic Brawl matches, by the way.
 

Nidtendofreak

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I was going to do the "water tricks" as it where later, along with character strategies. Like G&W's key stalling under the rock (banned most likely, though just plunging down into the water shouldn't be.), and Counterdiving (Not banned. Same thing as the key, except with a SHCounter in the water, and you CAN NOT go under things. Work's best with Ike, Marth isn't quite as good, Lucario is LOL basically pointless.)

As for the OHKO from the 50% hit, I don't think it's that strong. Maybe on lighter characters but I have survived that sort of hit as Ike with about 15% damage before. And he has no aerials that give him movement back quicker then ADing. Maybe it's because I got sent to the far side blastzone. *shrugs*

Either way, help is nice as I have a LOT to cover in this stage....
 

Linkshot

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If you control the direction of your UpB, you can go underwater by Up+B without jumping out.

Both cannonbomb attacks are set knockback. You could be at 900% and the graze wouldn't kill you.
 

Morrigan

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So Nidtendofreak, are you in favor of keeping it as a normal CP? If it wasn't for the cannonballs it would make a nice counterpick, those things are as ridiculous as F-zero machines (striking power-wise). CP-banned if you ask me.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Summation of the above: Pirate Ship is stupid.
I wasn't exactly expecting you to say anything worth countering anyways. >_> But I will as I am bored.

I can also throw out a baseless statement: Battlefield and Smashville are stupid neutrals and should be CPs. Holds just as much water. Except I will actually add to it: They give Snake too much of an advantage to be neutral. He can control too much of the field with his mines and grenades. On BF he can easily control the whole side of the stage and just toss grenades at you safely, or just plank if it's against Falco and be perfectly fine. Smashville gives him very large stage control by planting mines on the moving platform, to the point he can affect recoveries as well. Obviously I don't mean this, just trying to prove how baseless and pointless your statement is. To the point where it's leaning towards helping my argument.

At least attempt to counter the FACTS I have given, so we can actually get some ideas going around about the more contiversal(sp?) stages. Unless of course you can't and don't want to admit that I just proved that the stage changing hazards at PS only affect 1/5 of the match. When that occurs, baseless statements are often issued. We all know that the final stage list will have more stages then the most conservative regional list (North East IIRC) and less stages then the most open regional stage list (California IIRC). This is where the fun comes in with actual debates instead of just mudslinging.


EDIT: Yes, very much so in favor of keeping it a CP. I've played there in tournaments, I see no reason why is shouldn't be a CP. However, the cars have more striking power, as proven by the fact the glancing (and by far most common) cannonball hits have set knockback, so they can't KO. I'll double check that myself later, but if that is true, Port Town's cars are over all more deadly then the cannonballs due to their speed and single large hitboxes.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Goody. I should do Green Greens afterwards. I finder even harder to see what thats in CP/Banned then Pirate Ship.

EDIT: Actually, Pirate Ship is just plain old CP. Not even CP/Banned.
 

fkacyan

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Nidtendo, all Kamikaze and Thiocyanide want to do is prevent discussion of CP/Banned so that they don't move up to CP.
They won't move up whether or not I provide facts. Your theorycraft past any of the actual facts of % and knockback information are outright wrong, and I have no intent to use the written word to make any attempt to correct that. You're welcome to see first-hand by playing me, like AvaricePanda did - Or do you think he just magically decided to completely 180 his opinion on two stages randomly?

The thing is, allowing stages like this is just to your disadvantage, because it can allow sub-par players to win against better players provided they know how to use the broken strategy on a given stage. Just hope that person isn't you.

EDIT: Actually, Pirate Ship is just plain old CP. Not even CP/Banned.
It's Banned / CP if anything right now.
 

Nidtendofreak

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No, PS is just plain old CP right now. Look at the first post. That has not changed since it was first posted, and only might change come june.

And how on earth is allowing more stages so characters actually can use strategy in stage selection negative? That's just silly. Knowledge is half the battle in deciding who is better. Someone could have all of the skill in the world at Brawl, but if they don't have the knowledge about something (stage or match-up), they are more likely to lose then if they had it. And there aren't any "broken" strategies on Pirate Ship. Closest thing is water camping, which is in the same category as edge planking. People complain about it, but is has yet to be proven to win tournaments. Heck, I attempted to use water planking against a more skill player. It costed me my 2 stock lead. Why? Because he had knowledge of the stage like I did.

But by all means, continue crying away how "a sub-par player can beat a better player here because the stage is gay". Guess what? A lesser skilled player could beat a much better Falco if he knows how to CG with Pikachu, or could beat a much better Fox if he knows how to Ftilt with Sheik. And CP stages don't even affect matches as much as characters do. I highly doubt I would beat M2K if I took him to PS as Ike or G&W. Doesn't work that way. Heck, I would only be able to beat someone here who was basically right around my level.

Oh, and BTW: time as to how long something happens =/= theorycraft. It's as much of a fact as % and knockback info. Also got to love how you STILL haven't disprove a single solitary point I have brought up about PS so far.
 

fkacyan

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Also got to love how you STILL haven't disprove a single solitary point I have brought up about PS so far.
I have no need to, as much as you may disagree.

ETA: Also, lawl at August's stage list. That's what I call recent!
 

deepseadiva

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You're wrong just cuz.
Honestly...?

Anyways, to anyone willing to have an actual discussion:

Is water camping an over powered strategy?

I'm starting to think it's on par with circling....

As fair as I consider Pirate Ship is, it would be much better to ban the stage then trying to ban the technique - if the technique is even that broken to begin with.
 

AvaricePanda

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Planking is a consistent tactic that can be used any time there's a ledge. Water-camping can only be used in just that, water, AKA only consistently on one stage. Water-camping is a stage specific strategy that heavily tips the odds towards a couple of characters, much like Jiggs' sideB ledge tactics on Norfair and MKs Tornado spamming on Mansion. It's technically possible to get around, but it's inanely difficult and it's easy to slip up and get caught again.

eh...

Time to be less vague. A sub-par player really can beat a better player on certain stages, stage knowledge or not. I almost 2-stocked Thio on Luigi's Mansion with MK (I SDed twice) against someone he was good with. I used MK, a character I don't use, spammed tornado, and abused the stage. Thio did the exact same thing to me and actually 2-stocked my main on the same stage. If I escaped the tornado and tried to destroy the level, he'd destroy the rest so the ceilings would come back again. Or he'd camp behind the pillars, meaning I'd have no way of approaching (I was Diddy against an MK, the pillars stopped my bananas).

Related: Pirate Ship falls into this very debatable category of stages. The stage has hazards (bombs), but if it was only that alone, it would still be CP. However, the stage has exploits (going under the rock, water-camping) that make the stage very questionable. If you're playing a G&W here, he already has a huge advantage if he knows the exploits. Not all characters can get around water-camping as easily as others (MK, Kirby, and Diddy would have an easier time than Falco, Fox, etc.,). However, this is a stage, not a character or tactic, so banning it is enforcable and doesn't interfere with anything else.

Like every other questionable stage, I'm going to ask the same question. What does Pirate Ship has that other stages don't have? What new things does it bring? The only thing I can think of is the water, which, as you can tell with water-camping, isn't necessarily a good change. So really, why would this stage be necessary?

To the person who asked if we'd allow another stage like FD because it's not necessary...yes, we'd add it. I'm only asking the questions for stages that are questionable. If they bring something completely new to the table despite the hazards, there's a better chance of it being CP (Distant Planet). If the stage is very similar to others and just has arbitrary hazards (PictoChat, WarioWare) then it's most likely going to be banned. Why should anyone put up with a stage with hazards when there's a stage much like it without said hazards?

And it's hard to disprove things you've said about Pirate Ship when everything you've stated was facts/observations.
 
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