If your opponent attacks you while on the edge, they run the risk of getting killed, themselves since they have to touch the water to hit you. If you're grabbing the ledge and they persue you, you have to jump off immediately and head back to the main part of the stage. Sounds hard, but just about every character's recovery move should be more than capable of that, so if they interrupt your double-jump, your recovery move can still bring you back.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Mic_128
- Start date
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- Joined
- May 15, 2006
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- 49
Just with completly different hazards and effects. The canonballs in Pirate Ship (What is the official name for the stage anyway?) can kill and do a good chunk, not to mention the mini-catapult that can chuck people far off the edge (and can kill but only on high percentages) whereas the hazards on Halberd are much weaker. A slow moving homing laser that doesn't do much damage and can be easily DI's out of, the canonball it shoots is insanly slow, is just randomly shot out, not aimed at anyone, and I have no idea how much damage it deals or knockback, as all the matches I've had there, no one (not even lev 1 cpu's) have been hit by it.
And that one has water, and the other has a passable bottom most of the time, and that one can go in low gravity, and the other.... you know what, I don't think they're very similar at all.
As with any of the random elements of any of the other stages, we assume it is predictable, avoidable, or manipulatable enough that it doesn't represent any item-like dramatic luck factor.
I think that is point for debate on these stages.
Pictochat- I don't see any of its hazards act in this manner. Out of the 27 different layouts, only a few include hazards, and dealing with those hazards is easy as they start out consistently, take a quick moment to draw, and don't often KO. There seems to be very little luck involved here.
However, Flat Zone 2-
I've tried to put more time in on this course, and I'm still left to the same conclusions that things like the tiger cage, falling meat, and the gas station lack predictability in movement and lead to a very random damage element that's hard to avoid. For example, even if you stay on the side or away from the hazards on the cage, and then you may be knocked or thrown into one of the hazards; so far, everything is fine. However, after being knocked into one of the hazards, sometimes you are pingponged helplessly to your doom by the random movement of the hazards, sometimes not. At least with the falling meat, the backround G&W can be hit as you take safety in the sides of the screen, and once knocked out the stage shifts out to something else. And also, at least with the gas station, you can just stay away from around those areas and avoid the change of getting hit. However otherwise, I've found no pattern to when you take damage at the gas station. Given the nature of this stages hazards, though, overall I think we need to look into just how much luck is involved, because most of it's sources of damage don't SEEM TO as easily follow the pattern of predictability, avoidability, or manipulation that other damage hazards do.
Well, dang, is there any real reason to ban scrolling stages specifically? I think maybe we should start by considering each stage separately, as one scrolls vertically and the other scrolls horizontally, and actually both play different. So what elements or aspects to them require a ban, or are all characteristics simply ones that can create advantages for players to use? They don't even have random elements, nor do they allow infinite stalling...
Since Wario Ware can be banned for randomness of items, Spear Pillar for it's circular path, and Big Blue for it's unpredictable shifts that can lead to death, I'm just going to focus on Pictochat and Flat Zone 2.
As with any of the random elements of any of the other stages, we assume it is predictable, avoidable, or manipulatable enough that it doesn't represent any item-like dramatic luck factor.
I think that is point for debate on these stages.
Pictochat- I don't see any of its hazards act in this manner. Out of the 27 different layouts, only a few include hazards, and dealing with those hazards is easy as they start out consistently, take a quick moment to draw, and don't often KO. There seems to be very little luck involved here.
However, Flat Zone 2-
I've tried to put more time in on this course, and I'm still left to the same conclusions that things like the tiger cage, falling meat, and the gas station lack predictability in movement and lead to a very random damage element that's hard to avoid. For example, even if you stay on the side or away from the hazards on the cage, and then you may be knocked or thrown into one of the hazards; so far, everything is fine. However, after being knocked into one of the hazards, sometimes you are pingponged helplessly to your doom by the random movement of the hazards, sometimes not. At least with the falling meat, the backround G&W can be hit as you take safety in the sides of the screen, and once knocked out the stage shifts out to something else. And also, at least with the gas station, you can just stay away from around those areas and avoid the change of getting hit. However otherwise, I've found no pattern to when you take damage at the gas station. Given the nature of this stages hazards, though, overall I think we need to look into just how much luck is involved, because most of it's sources of damage don't SEEM TO as easily follow the pattern of predictability, avoidability, or manipulation that other damage hazards do.
I hear a lot of people saying that they don't see any problem with Pictochat. I'd like to take a moment to reshare my experiencees on it. It is true that very few of the layouts feature hazards, however I feel that almost all that do are exploitable. On two lesser notes, the stage-splitting diagonal limits the range of movement and can stop the flow of battle, not always a bad thing if used well (so we'll toss that) and the mine cart that rolls isn't a very big KO danger, but deals decent percentage.
As for my issues with this level, after spending 3 hours onling after getting the game and constantly either locking people into the fire hazzard or bouncing them between the two spiked walls without giving them a chance to recover (something that can be done with any character and gives the opponen no responce time to avoid on any consistant base unless you mess up), I feel that this stage has enough breaks in it to be banned. I recognize that the selection is random and that there are a lot of them, but if I can play a stage for 3 hours (2 min melee format) and always have one of these two (or both) appear then I feel that the stage is to exploitable.
- Joined
- May 15, 2006
- Messages
- 49
So did the Rock stage in Pokemon Stadium.
Make sure you dodge it, or if accurate enough, land on it. It doesn't last that long, can't ko until they're on high percentages.
People need to learn to Di out of it or airdodge it. Not sure about the spike damage, but the fire only does 1% and is easy enough to get out of if someone actually tries.
There are a few issues with your arguments that I would like to address, the first being your comment about Pokemon Stadium. Pokemon Stadium's "Rock" type level has a wall, Pictochat splits the entire level in two with a gargantuan eyesore of a diagonal. It is MUCH easier to climb and approach of a wall with a platform then from the diagonal in Pictochat.
Yes, it is true that you can land on the cart, however this takes precision to do and it's far to obvious what you're trying to do, giving your opponent ample time to not let you and knock you into it instead.
As for the spike damage, the skikes cover both sides of the stage, do tremendous knockback, and do 20% damage each hit. As for teching out of it, teching after hitting the spike walls you can either tech in-place or the techs fling you off the edge and unde rthe spikes. Either way, you've gained 20% damage and it's easy for your opponent to put you right back into them.
The fire, I love the fire (though I'd hate to have it used against me). Characters such as Marth, Metaknight, Kirby, R.O.B., Falco, Fox, Wolf, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, etc... can all lock their opponents against the fire to quickly rais damage%, even if it is just 1% at a time (I have yet to test the actual percentage dealt for the fire).
Also, other obsticals yet to be mentioned are the pirahna plant, which deals 10% damage and shoots you upwards very high (even at low percents) and the spike rampart-esque... things... pole/posts that knock you outwards regardles of where you touch them and deal 10% damage a hit.
Well, one thing is that they are random, but many that can be exploited show up far more often then ones that can't be. No one setup on Pictochat is biased towards any 1 character or another (save for the fire setup), however this isn't the main issue. The min issue is that all the hazards have good KO potential in themselves and they're very exploitable. Now, to me being exploitable from one or two characters would be MORE balanced then the fact that they're almost there TO be exploited, and whoever gets lucky and starts exploiting it first has an insanely high chance to KO their opponent using the stage to build rapid massive damage before the next setup comes.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
they aren't biased but they are random and unpredictable.
I would like you to point out a pattern and I'll test it and see how often it follows the said pattern.
I would like you to point out a pattern and I'll test it and see how often it follows the said pattern.
They are random like norfair lava wave direction is random, but not random like me getting invincibility and you getting a mushroom so you are easier to hit. The element of luck isn't there. That's what I mean by bias. The fact that they can be exploited... should not be an issue. At all. If you hit, throw, or simply control your opponent to receive damage from a hazard, I don't see what's the issue. Simple manipulation of the stage elements is clearly not grounds for banning.
No one just gets lucky when it happens. They do it to you are you do it to yourself.
No one just gets lucky when it happens. They do it to you are you do it to yourself.
Regarding Pictochat: I think it should be a counterpick, unless we find some broken tactic that favors or destroys some characters. Even if there is a broken tactic, the chances that the broken transform will appear simultaneously with a character that can easily exploit it are pretty slim, given the 27 transforms and 35 (39) characters.
I think Pictochat should be relegated to Counterpick. Until we find a broken tactic, no one smart will CP it anyway; it doesn't favor any characters significantly.
Now for the meat of my post:
A Case For Pokemon Stadium 2
I think PS2 should be Counterpick. I'll go through each transform and make a case for its being allowed.
Neutral Stage
Well, duh. The same layout as PS1, which was neutral in Melee.
Ground Stage
The layout of this transform is neutral as well. It's also way less disruptive than the Rock stage was in Melee. The slant of the wall prevents most infinite wall combos, and even the ones that still work will be ended by the transform back soon enough.
Ice Stage
The basic layout of this stage is neutral. It doesn't promote camping any more than any neutral stage.
The slipperiness does not disrupt gameplay enough to warrant a ban. It gives slight advantages to more aerially based characters (less tripping, etc.), but that's the point of a counterpick. There is nothing gamebreaking about this transform.
Electric Stage
-no pic-
Same neutral stage shape. Camping is actually discouraged by the conveyors.
The main qualm with this stage is the conveyors. These arguably give Diddy a big advantage due to his bananas on the conveyor, as well as being advantageous to aerial-based characters, as they can stay in the air to avoid the conveyors. These advantages don't break the stage; they simply give a few characers a slight benefit., which makes a good counterpick.
Flying Stage
Flat.
The jump boosting is interesting, but not game breaking. It gives a small advantage to characters with fastfalling dairs (Sonic, T.Link) as they can get down fast if need be. The floatiness also makes combos even harder but that doesn't warrant a ban either. Some characters can stall for a really long time up top, like ROB and Pit, but this stall is ended by the stage transforming back, and there is not enough time to stall a match significantly. As long as there are no broken tactics that exploit the floatiness too much, it shouldn't be a reason to ban.
I think Pictochat should be relegated to Counterpick. Until we find a broken tactic, no one smart will CP it anyway; it doesn't favor any characters significantly.
Now for the meat of my post:
A Case For Pokemon Stadium 2
I think PS2 should be Counterpick. I'll go through each transform and make a case for its being allowed.
Neutral Stage
Well, duh. The same layout as PS1, which was neutral in Melee.
Ground Stage
The layout of this transform is neutral as well. It's also way less disruptive than the Rock stage was in Melee. The slant of the wall prevents most infinite wall combos, and even the ones that still work will be ended by the transform back soon enough.
Ice Stage
The basic layout of this stage is neutral. It doesn't promote camping any more than any neutral stage.
The slipperiness does not disrupt gameplay enough to warrant a ban. It gives slight advantages to more aerially based characters (less tripping, etc.), but that's the point of a counterpick. There is nothing gamebreaking about this transform.
Electric Stage
-no pic-
Same neutral stage shape. Camping is actually discouraged by the conveyors.
The main qualm with this stage is the conveyors. These arguably give Diddy a big advantage due to his bananas on the conveyor, as well as being advantageous to aerial-based characters, as they can stay in the air to avoid the conveyors. These advantages don't break the stage; they simply give a few characers a slight benefit., which makes a good counterpick.
Flying Stage
Flat.
The jump boosting is interesting, but not game breaking. It gives a small advantage to characters with fastfalling dairs (Sonic, T.Link) as they can get down fast if need be. The floatiness also makes combos even harder but that doesn't warrant a ban either. Some characters can stall for a really long time up top, like ROB and Pit, but this stall is ended by the stage transforming back, and there is not enough time to stall a match significantly. As long as there are no broken tactics that exploit the floatiness too much, it shouldn't be a reason to ban.
Shouldn't that be an argument to make it neutral?
Mr.Lombardi34
Smash Ace
Nobody does time matches in tournaments.
Also, allexx, just because a stage doesn't favor any specific character doesn't make it nuetral. Counterpicks can also just be stages with things that anyone can use to help them win.
But if anyone can use it to their advantage, who will counterpick it?
When people counterpick, they want something that gives them a specific advantage that the other person won't get. If you and your opponent can take advantage of a stage's hazards equally, you're not going to counterpick the stage.
No, that wouldn't make it an argument for neutral. Neutral shouldn't be defined by not appearing to use as providing some specific advantage to certain characters, but by extreme consistency and simplicity between the neutral stages.
If it doesn't have elements that make it worth banning, yet doesn't have the very limited characteristics to fit in a neutral stage, it goes counterpick. It would then be up to the players to use it and find advantages and choose it.
There have been a few interesting points brought up since... oh when did I last post... that's right, earlier today. Anyways, I just wanted to address what some people have argued to see if we can come to any conclusions.
To Eten: What you don't seem to understand in this situation is that when picking whether a stage is neutral, CP, or Ban the MAIN issue is whether or not it can be exploited. If a stage suck as Pictochat is as broken as Pictochat then the issue is ENTIERLY whether or not it can be abbused. Take for example a match I had today: My opponent was at 34% after my u-throw into spiked wall, after hitting spiked wall once from one throw he was KOd by the stage at a total of 94%, broken == Ban.
To Verditude: You made very good assesments in regards to the Pokemon Stadium 2 stage, however, you say it should be CP. After reading through your post a multitude of times I don't see a single argument that you make that suggests CP for this stage, instead I see you saying that every transformation is neutral and balanced. I'm curious as to why a balanced, "neutral" stage is being suggested for CP. as for your comments on Pictochat, I have made numerous tests on the stage, so if you want to know more about how to break Pictochat to an unfun level read some of my above posts.
To AlexX: Yes.
To 1337z0r: Your argument isn't wrong to some degree, except that even at high-ish (60-85 %) the cannonballs won't kill, and even from (85-100 %) slightly higher death isn't guerenteed by any means. This can be abused... maybe... if you're lucky... in time matches, however I think that what most people are looking at is the objective assesment for a stage in a 4-stock 1v1 matchup. By no means are you compleatly wrong, but at the same time I think you're situational assesment may be slightly askew from everyone elses.
That's my take on these anyways...
Also, if you kep up-to-date on my listing and assesment of the stages (updated regurally on pg.34 of this thread) then you'll notice a couple of changes. Pirate Ship has been stolen by a ninja. We found it's remains in the CP section not long after it was noticed as missing, and out of respect we're leaving it there... for the time being at least. Also (also for the time being) Shadow Moses Island was moved to Ban. I'll continue testing this with Dedede while checking tournament regulation specifications on a couple of things.
To Eten: What you don't seem to understand in this situation is that when picking whether a stage is neutral, CP, or Ban the MAIN issue is whether or not it can be exploited. If a stage suck as Pictochat is as broken as Pictochat then the issue is ENTIERLY whether or not it can be abbused. Take for example a match I had today: My opponent was at 34% after my u-throw into spiked wall, after hitting spiked wall once from one throw he was KOd by the stage at a total of 94%, broken == Ban.
To Verditude: You made very good assesments in regards to the Pokemon Stadium 2 stage, however, you say it should be CP. After reading through your post a multitude of times I don't see a single argument that you make that suggests CP for this stage, instead I see you saying that every transformation is neutral and balanced. I'm curious as to why a balanced, "neutral" stage is being suggested for CP. as for your comments on Pictochat, I have made numerous tests on the stage, so if you want to know more about how to break Pictochat to an unfun level read some of my above posts.
To AlexX: Yes.
To 1337z0r: Your argument isn't wrong to some degree, except that even at high-ish (60-85 %) the cannonballs won't kill, and even from (85-100 %) slightly higher death isn't guerenteed by any means. This can be abused... maybe... if you're lucky... in time matches, however I think that what most people are looking at is the objective assesment for a stage in a 4-stock 1v1 matchup. By no means are you compleatly wrong, but at the same time I think you're situational assesment may be slightly askew from everyone elses.
That's my take on these anyways...
Also, if you kep up-to-date on my listing and assesment of the stages (updated regurally on pg.34 of this thread) then you'll notice a couple of changes. Pirate Ship has been stolen by a ninja. We found it's remains in the CP section not long after it was noticed as missing, and out of respect we're leaving it there... for the time being at least. Also (also for the time being) Shadow Moses Island was moved to Ban. I'll continue testing this with Dedede while checking tournament regulation specifications on a couple of things.
No. A stage being exploited is perfectly legit. It's just like any other stage. What if there is water, and someone is in it, and you spike them. OMGAWD! The stage was exploited for a KO! Water is being abused! Let's look at the similarities-
The opponent had to be in the right place at the right time(water, or underneath the spikes). The opponent had to get hit by a specific move(spike, or a grab). There is NO issue here. These are the characteristics that bring out differences in the stage in the first place. This is why your "exploited" argument makes no sense, the stages are meant to be used for an advantage.
- Joined
- May 15, 2006
- Messages
- 49
The only stages that have KO potential are the misiles (when you're on very high percent) the fire (when on very high percent) the plant (can ko on high percent) and the spikes (not really KO-able since they shoot you sideways) That's 4 out of 27 transformations (28 if you count blank) Very few hazards have ANY ko chance, and only on extremly high percent.
Empy
Smash Ace
Wow, this thread is one collection of strange reasoning's. What surprises me the most is the degree in which people think we ban stages because they either:
1) Have room to shoot lasers
2) Have a hazard or something moving
The main reason to ban stages is because some stages **** certain characters and some stages **** everything they meet, in random order. Anyway, let's take a look at how far we're at until now. The last list I've seen is this one:
Skyworld ***** Ike. I've played him there, it's horrible. His up B destroys the very platform/ledge your trying to reach and he falls through it afterwards, from which he just can't recover. Also, the lower part of skyworld is like the underground of Hyrule, one big techfest. You can even walltech on the platforms hanging on the sides of the stages, so you shouldn't be ko'd on that stage at all.
Shadow Moses Island has the same problem, now the walls can be destroyed, but you shouldn't even take this into account. At a tourney, do you really think anyone will keep attacking the walls instead of his opponent? And if so, do you think he'll have 1 match, just 1, where he does not get 4-stocked? Me neither. On top, those walls heavily promote some infinites and there are walls on the higher part as well. Those 8 minutes will be over before you even get past stock 1.
1) Have room to shoot lasers
2) Have a hazard or something moving
The main reason to ban stages is because some stages **** certain characters and some stages **** everything they meet, in random order. Anyway, let's take a look at how far we're at until now. The last list I've seen is this one:
Now I find this list better than I expected, however, there are some things I have to disagree with.
Skyworld ***** Ike. I've played him there, it's horrible. His up B destroys the very platform/ledge your trying to reach and he falls through it afterwards, from which he just can't recover. Also, the lower part of skyworld is like the underground of Hyrule, one big techfest. You can even walltech on the platforms hanging on the sides of the stages, so you shouldn't be ko'd on that stage at all.
Shadow Moses Island has the same problem, now the walls can be destroyed, but you shouldn't even take this into account. At a tourney, do you really think anyone will keep attacking the walls instead of his opponent? And if so, do you think he'll have 1 match, just 1, where he does not get 4-stocked? Me neither. On top, those walls heavily promote some infinites and there are walls on the higher part as well. Those 8 minutes will be over before you even get past stock 1.
Snail
Smash Lord
I agree with you about Skyworld, but the walls in Shadow Moses don't take a lot of effort to tear down and you can still KO upwards... Which would mean it'd be a good counterpick for characters with powerful upward KO moves, right?
WolvyDaPope
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2007
- Messages
- 11
Very true, and I agree with banning Skyworld. Many have said it before and will say it again: Skyworld is a fight club. Skyworld, to me, would be fine if the bottom platforms weren't destructible and there was more room in the interior of the level. Since this is a discussion of what is and not what if, Skyworld gets my vote as ix-nayed. egruntz's list is not bad other than that (little sketchy about Norfair, but haven't played on it enough to make a clear decision).
KingofCereal
Smash Journeyman
I hate skyworld, it is my least favorite stage. That being said I still don't think it should be banned. So you can be spiked through the floor... don't get hit by the spike.
Furthermore Hanenbow has no reason to be banned. It's a very simple stage with nothing that really messes you up too badly.
Furthermore Hanenbow has no reason to be banned. It's a very simple stage with nothing that really messes you up too badly.
Florida
イーグランツ
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,184
There are certain characters who are "*****" by Skyworld. This includes Olimar, Zamus, Ivysaur, and apparently Ike. Since Skyworld is so devastating to only a few of the characters, it should definitely be made counterpick legal. Characters such as Luigi, Metaknight, Kirby, and other characters who have great recoveries can fight well on this stage. If a Kirby just lost to an Olimar, choosing Skyworld would be an excellent choice for a counterpick.
Shadow Moses Island is tricky. There are characters who have an advantage with this stage, but characters who can infinite due to wall placement (D3, Falco, etc.) DOMINATE with the stage--and that's where it's hard to determine the legality of the stage. Stages with walls are being "banned" by unofficial tournament hosts left and right, but walls really need to go into further discussion. Does King Dedede have too much of an advantage over this stage to be kept counterpick legal? Though keep in mind that other characters have an advantage on this stage as well, such as Olimar (no gimping available, he's an easy star K.O.er, etcetera).
I'm fine either way with how Shadow Moses Island ends up. Though, one thing is for sure, it should never be neutral. Skyworld, I feel, must be counterpick legal. Any thoughts?
Shadow Moses Island is tricky. There are characters who have an advantage with this stage, but characters who can infinite due to wall placement (D3, Falco, etc.) DOMINATE with the stage--and that's where it's hard to determine the legality of the stage. Stages with walls are being "banned" by unofficial tournament hosts left and right, but walls really need to go into further discussion. Does King Dedede have too much of an advantage over this stage to be kept counterpick legal? Though keep in mind that other characters have an advantage on this stage as well, such as Olimar (no gimping available, he's an easy star K.O.er, etcetera).
I'm fine either way with how Shadow Moses Island ends up. Though, one thing is for sure, it should never be neutral. Skyworld, I feel, must be counterpick legal. Any thoughts?
Florida
イーグランツ
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,184
Hanewbow doesn't have any hazards, true, but the stage set-up and layout is too uneven. In Melee, the stage "Termina: Great Bay" was banned for basically only one reason: it was uneven. The left side of the stage was too close to the blast zones and the right side was too far. There were no hazards to speak of on that stage, it was just the awkward placement that got it banned (some argue that the main platform supported cheap killing, but it was mainly because of the uneven placement). The left-most "tree" is very oddly placed. Beyond that, there's a single leaf below that, and a full tree in the middle. Plus, there are other reasons as to why this stage should be banned, if the uneven placement isn't enough. The leaves can shift and change positioning, and tether recoveries are screwed (though this can also support counterpick legality). It should be banned. It's a stupid stage anyway.
Corner-Trap
Smash Ace
Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island/Brawl
Lylate Cruise
Counter Pick:
Delfino Plaza (movement, walk off ledges, walls, water)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, walk off ledges)
Rumble Falls (movement, hazards)
Skyworld (destructible environment)
Castle Seige (transformations, walk off ledges)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (transformations, various effects)
Halberd (movement, hazards)
Shadow Moses (walls, walk off ledges)
PictoChat (transformations, hazards)
Summit (hazards, water, various effects)
Norfair (hazards)
Mario Circuit (hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (transformations)
Yoshi's Island/Melee (walk off ledges)
Corneria (hazards, walls)
Onett (hazards, walls)
Brinstar (hazards, destructible environment)
Rainbow Cruise (movement)
Distant Planet (hazards, various effects)
Mushroomy Kingdom (movement, walls, walk off ledges)
Port Town Aero Dive (movement, hazards)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, walk off ledges)
Luigi's Mansion (destructible environment)
Jungle Japes (hazards, water)
Green Greens (hazards, various effects)
Pokemon Stadium (transformations, walls)
Hanenbow (various effects)
Pirate Ship (water, movement, hazards, walls)
Banned:
WarioWare Inc. (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
New Pork City (infinite stalling, hazards)
Hyrule Temple (infinite stalling, walls)
Mario Bros. (adverse effects, infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Spear Pillar (adverse effects, infinite stalling)
75m (infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Flat Zone 2 (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
Big Blue (adverse effects)
Criteria:
These are the specifics I used to deem whether a stage is neutral, counter pick, or ban worthy. If a stage had none of these traits, then it's neutral. If a stage had any of these traits aside from infinite stalling, and adverse effects then it's counter pick. If a stage had infinite stalling, or adverse effects then it's banned. If other traits are deemed broken in the future, then the stages that have them will be banned.
Movement- stage moves among locations
Hazards- stage can cause harm to the players
Walls- stage has walls
Walk off ledges- stage has walk off ledges
Water- stage has water
Transformations- stage transforms
Destructible environment- stage can be destroyed
Various effects- other effects including low traction, gravity, etc.
Adverse effects- stage is deemed too detrimental to the players for randomness
Infinite stalling- players can runaway indefinitely in a loop
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island/Brawl
Lylate Cruise
Counter Pick:
Delfino Plaza (movement, walk off ledges, walls, water)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, walk off ledges)
Rumble Falls (movement, hazards)
Skyworld (destructible environment)
Castle Seige (transformations, walk off ledges)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (transformations, various effects)
Halberd (movement, hazards)
Shadow Moses (walls, walk off ledges)
PictoChat (transformations, hazards)
Summit (hazards, water, various effects)
Norfair (hazards)
Mario Circuit (hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (transformations)
Yoshi's Island/Melee (walk off ledges)
Corneria (hazards, walls)
Onett (hazards, walls)
Brinstar (hazards, destructible environment)
Rainbow Cruise (movement)
Distant Planet (hazards, various effects)
Mushroomy Kingdom (movement, walls, walk off ledges)
Port Town Aero Dive (movement, hazards)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, walk off ledges)
Luigi's Mansion (destructible environment)
Jungle Japes (hazards, water)
Green Greens (hazards, various effects)
Pokemon Stadium (transformations, walls)
Hanenbow (various effects)
Pirate Ship (water, movement, hazards, walls)
Banned:
WarioWare Inc. (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
New Pork City (infinite stalling, hazards)
Hyrule Temple (infinite stalling, walls)
Mario Bros. (adverse effects, infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Spear Pillar (adverse effects, infinite stalling)
75m (infinite stalling, walk off ledges)
Flat Zone 2 (adverse effects, walk off ledges)
Big Blue (adverse effects)
Criteria:
These are the specifics I used to deem whether a stage is neutral, counter pick, or ban worthy. If a stage had none of these traits, then it's neutral. If a stage had any of these traits aside from infinite stalling, and adverse effects then it's counter pick. If a stage had infinite stalling, or adverse effects then it's banned. If other traits are deemed broken in the future, then the stages that have them will be banned.
Movement- stage moves among locations
Hazards- stage can cause harm to the players
Walls- stage has walls
Walk off ledges- stage has walk off ledges
Water- stage has water
Transformations- stage transforms
Destructible environment- stage can be destroyed
Various effects- other effects including low traction, gravity, etc.
Adverse effects- stage is deemed too detrimental to the players for randomness
Infinite stalling- players can runaway indefinitely in a loop
Hmm, ahh, hmm. Yah.
This is a hard one.
Pokemon Stadium I
Due to transformations and I'm assuming, the walls and windmill at certain variations...
Given that NO other neutral stage transforms, and NO other neutral stage has a windmill which people can move people, and NO other neutral stage has any walls of any sort, are the characteristics of Pokemon Stadium too much to be neutral?
It's an interesting thought.
Can we get the garbage like this out of the thread already?Egruntz said:
Not are you wrong about why Great Bay was banned(it had a circular path), you're ready to ban it because you feel it's a stupid stage. I don't know what it's going to take to start convincing people that stages should not be banned from competitive play just because you don't like them.
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
I'm fine with having Skyworld as a counterpick stage, unless I see a clear reason to ban it.
With some consideration, I'd ban Shadow Moses Island now. Breakable walls isn't the issue. Some characters like Dedede would dominate on this stage in such a way that would make it a poor choice to allow it in tournaments. I don't mind walk offs or walls as long as there is something about the stage so that it would provide a minor advantage only and/or it's not permanent. On a stage like Pokemon Stadium, there is a wall that appears in some of the transformations. But this wall isn't there for the entire match, so the stage is fine. On Distant Planet, there is a walk off, but because of the rain that sometimes appears, it can't be utilized for the entire time.
Every stage in the game offers some sort of advantage to one player or character over another, since this isn't the type of game where only one stage exists. In any game with variety, people will find ways to utilize whatever they could to their advantage.
Empy
Smash Ace
I might have put it a little too simple, but it is true. Yes stages get banned for various reasons. But it mostly started because certain characters could barely lose on certain stages and because certain stages made the gameplay too random. If I recall correctly, Hyrule was banned because you don't die in the underground, you just tech around. Anyway, I'm really willing to have a good debate over some of the stages, but I did find a large part of this thread to be a pain to read. Not any of your fault btw.
Getting spiked trough the floor is not the only reason, there are quite some characters that have a hard time there and even some for who it is simply impossible. On top, you can tech around soo much, which is even worse for the player who is behind. If your having a hard time just doing damage, utilizing your killing moves just right, so the other won't be able to tech out of it, will become virtually impossible. For this reason I think skyworld holds just too many problems. Also, what's the use of making it a counterpick half of the characters will require you banning it anyway? (banning as in, the 1 stage you can ban before the match)
Skyworld: yes but would it not be too good a counterpick? Counterpicks aren't supposed to be a free win to the loser of the first match. This and everything I said about it above here.
Shadow moses: I think keeping this stage in can only be maintained for a while anyway, people will get to know this stage better and will find just too many ways to abuse it. I've played there with Ike, just standing in the middle of the lower part and my reach is nearly enough to cover the distance to both platforms. I'd never go to the upper part and if someone tries to come down, I can nearly almost reach them with an uair, which would be lethal pretty quick.
Link would be even worse I suppose, he gets to camp there all day and an amazing uair to kill with on top. Same for Tlink of course.
What I'm trying to say is, people can create some sort of lock on the match on this stage. Either the person on top comes down and dies, or neither of them moves, resulting in a time out, which could also force the upper player to still move down and lose the match.
And to it not being neutral, well, yeah that figures, it just isn't.
Pokemon Stadium 1; well it is indeed the most versatile stage in the neutral list, however I don't see any characters that have a huge disadvantage here and it worked fine as a neutral stage in Melee, so unless it's gotten a lot worse for certain characters or way better for others, I think it would work as a neutral in Brawl.
Well I've tried to make my reasons clear, I just think the stage is way less "neutral"-like then it looks. As to say, it looks rather simple but I see loads of complications.
Well Dedede for one indeed. Let me try to phrase this as best as I can. I think Moses Island should be banned, because for the character at disadvantage it is (near) impossible to turn it around into a victory. Which in tourneys would mean, the player losing match 1, would have a very easy time making it equal on match 2. When you have 2 players of equal skill, this would be extremely unfair to the player winning match 1.
Very true. In fact, this is something I like about Smash. The only but for me, is that people should indeed find ways to utilize it to an advantage. Not just think, this will be easy, my character can't possibly lose on this stage, no matter how much I fail.
Edit: o I nearly forgot to ask, how much do you guys (mainly Rapid and Eten) agree on EGruntz his list, which I quoted on top of this page? I think it's getting pretty close, it's got 7 neutral stages (1 more then Melee) so that's pretty good. And 16 counterpick stages, double that of Melee, which might be a bit high.
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No, it was banned because it was a mini-hyrule, where someone fast could get a kill and run around the stage the entire match, not to mention many chars could to a throw on the right platform, have the person being thrown bounce off the ceiling and then get spiked straight downwards to death (which is also one of the arguments about Skyworld.)
And Eten, empty's pretty much spot on. Stages that flat out own characters (Flat zone 2, Icicle mountain) and stages that own specific characters/help others flat out own (Yoshi's Island in Melee, Fox could Up-smash KO on 40%)
Serris
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Mushroomy Kingdom should just be banned. Sure, 1-1 might be legal, but selecting it is another story. You have to rely on chance just to get it to load. Not to mention there are loads of opportunities to infinite someone to death on both stages. Sure, the stage is pretty awesome, but it still doesn't belong in a competitive scene.
Rumble Falls gives disadvantages to characters without third jumps, slow characters, and characters who are lacking in jumping. Not to mention the scrolling speeds up, and there are some places where you can get stuck. Borderline counterpick, but most likely a ban.
Also, Eten, the credibility thing earlier was a joke. Those two stages were the only ones I really had an issue with.
Rumble Falls gives disadvantages to characters without third jumps, slow characters, and characters who are lacking in jumping. Not to mention the scrolling speeds up, and there are some places where you can get stuck. Borderline counterpick, but most likely a ban.
Also, Eten, the credibility thing earlier was a joke. Those two stages were the only ones I really had an issue with.
Florida
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Ah. I just took another look at AlphaZealot's thread on SSBM stage banishment and reasoning, and you're correct on why it was banned. Still, the uneven placement of the stage is another argument that didn't help it much, which is the same for Hanewbow.
Where do you get that I want to ban Hanewbow just because I dislike it? Truth is, I don't like Frigate Orpheon or Final Destination at all, but you don't see me banning those stages just because of my personal opinion. When you look at Frigate Orpheon and Final Destination, there's really nothing going on that makes the game too unfair. Sure Final Destination's edges are annoying and Frigate Orpheon's flip can be screwy, but that's not enough to lower those stages down to being counterpick legal, or even banned.
I hate Hanewbow, but I have also listed the reasonings as to why it should be placed along with the other banned stages as well--which you seemed to have avoided. So, I'll just go over those reasonings again:
- Uneven placement (tree in the middle, single leaf to the bottom left, tree to the top left)
- Leaves can shift positioning (this can screw up attacks and recoveries)
- Camping is supported by odd placement of surface (single leaf, tree to the top left)
- Tether recoveries have a disadvantage
- Projectiles are blocked by stems/other leaves
Aren't the spikes placed throughout the stage which basically kill you instantly enough to get this stage banned? There are areas where you can get stuck, which is ******** on a scrolling stage, and characters with lame jumps are impossible at this stage (such as Olimar).Serris said:
I actually don't even know why I put the Summit in counterpicks. I must've forgotten about the fish, which is bloody annoying and unfair. Actually, I also want to remove Shadow Moses Island from the counterpicks as well, but I think we should leave Skyworld in the counterpicks list. Here's the new result of my list:Empy said:
n e u t r a l s t a g e s :
Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
c o u n t e r p i c k l e g a l :
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Battleship Halberd
Castle Siege
Skyworld
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Corneria (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise (Melee)
Green Greens (Melee)
Brinstar (Melee)
b a n n e d s t a g e s :
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pokémon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town
Wario Ware
Distant Planet
New Pork City
Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
PictoChat
Hanewbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Hyrule Temple (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onett (Melee)
Big Blue (Melee)
Bolded - stages which should be the main topics of discussion regarding legality.
Empy
Smash Ace
I don't think we should be discussing Pokemon Stadium 1, it's gotten more neutral since Melee, if anything. Pokemon Stadium 2 seems a bit too much though, I think it's fine as it is. We really don't need every stage to be a counterpick anyway. Skyworld, well I've said everything I have to say about it, I'm still voting for banned, however, our votes don't really count, as the BRoomers decide anyway.
Speaking of which, will any of the BR members actually look here? And if so, will they bother reading large parts of this thread or will they look if we came to a final list on what we think? Maybe Mic_128 could help out on this one.
Frigate Orpheon is up for discussion though. I've heard many people about the ledges lately and even though there is an alarm for when it's going to turn, there is still the platform going up and down, which is annoying for characters with a poor recovery. This might be enough to move it to counterpick.
Also, what is to debate about Onett? I know some techs requiring a wall are gone, however, there are still some that do use it. The cars here are a problem too. They might be a little too predictable. So to say, if someone is using the walls anyway, he might decide to let both players be hit by them. It was banned in Melee and I think there will need to be a pretty good reason to legalize it.
Speaking of which, will any of the BR members actually look here? And if so, will they bother reading large parts of this thread or will they look if we came to a final list on what we think? Maybe Mic_128 could help out on this one.
Frigate Orpheon is up for discussion though. I've heard many people about the ledges lately and even though there is an alarm for when it's going to turn, there is still the platform going up and down, which is annoying for characters with a poor recovery. This might be enough to move it to counterpick.
Also, what is to debate about Onett? I know some techs requiring a wall are gone, however, there are still some that do use it. The cars here are a problem too. They might be a little too predictable. So to say, if someone is using the walls anyway, he might decide to let both players be hit by them. It was banned in Melee and I think there will need to be a pretty good reason to legalize it.
Bacon Man11
Smash Journeyman
Frigate Orpheon is in my opinion a great counterpick to an Olimar or Zamus.
And if Shadow Moses gets banned, PS1 should definetly not be a neutral.
And if Shadow Moses gets banned, PS1 should definetly not be a neutral.
No, actually, if you go with the mentality that you ban a stage if it gives someone "too" much of an advantage, you're going to end having to draw a really arbitrary line of what is too much of an advantage. I don't expect anyone to come up with escapes from infinites against walls, but you WILL be changing the metagame to an unnecessary and arbitrary degree by banning stages because they are deemed "too" much of an advantage.
That's all because it's impossible to know what is "too" much of an advantage, and what is not. Let me give as simple of an example I can think of. Dedede has a chain grab that can move people to walls, and an infinite against a wall. This makes Shadow Moses Island a pretty awesome course for Dedede. So they decide to ban it, because it gives him too much of an advantage. But wait! Anyone Zelda weight or lighter could never be chaingrabbed. Not only that, someone like Zelda sweetspots big round targets like Dedede easily and has some of the best vertical KO power. Could Dedede still be considered with too much of an advantage on SMI, or was it just an important counterpick for Dedede vs. certain characters?
Or how about Corneria and DK? DK can chain cargo throw someone against a wall, and by camping behind the back fin DK has an easy time getting around people's projectile game, setting them up against a wall, bringing them to a high % and getting an easy launch off the close blastline. Too much of an advantage? Or just a good DK that makes good use of a counterpick?
There are all sorts of tricks and skills people can and will learn to win. I think it would be poor practice to eliminate stages by assuming to know what is "too much" of an advantage and what is not.
That's all because it's impossible to know what is "too" much of an advantage, and what is not. Let me give as simple of an example I can think of. Dedede has a chain grab that can move people to walls, and an infinite against a wall. This makes Shadow Moses Island a pretty awesome course for Dedede. So they decide to ban it, because it gives him too much of an advantage. But wait! Anyone Zelda weight or lighter could never be chaingrabbed. Not only that, someone like Zelda sweetspots big round targets like Dedede easily and has some of the best vertical KO power. Could Dedede still be considered with too much of an advantage on SMI, or was it just an important counterpick for Dedede vs. certain characters?
Or how about Corneria and DK? DK can chain cargo throw someone against a wall, and by camping behind the back fin DK has an easy time getting around people's projectile game, setting them up against a wall, bringing them to a high % and getting an easy launch off the close blastline. Too much of an advantage? Or just a good DK that makes good use of a counterpick?
There are all sorts of tricks and skills people can and will learn to win. I think it would be poor practice to eliminate stages by assuming to know what is "too much" of an advantage and what is not.
Corner-Trap
Smash Ace
I guess people simply overlooked my post. Banning stages because certain characters are deemed "too good" on them, is a bad way of thinking. We won't know what is honestly broken until it's been proven in tournaments. Thats why I chose a different way of deciding neutral and counter pick stages, explained below.
I read your post Corner-trap, and I'm interested in the Pokemon Stadium I counterpick decision. Your reasoning is in the large part extremely similar to mine, yet shows a more meticulous review of the stages themselves, which is only a good thing. That reflects in two differences overall- the placement of Pokemon Stadium I and Flat Zone II. I suspect I can only come to agreement with you on both of those.
Pokemon Stadium I ends up falling out of the neutral location due to it's walls, windmill, and stage shifts, with the biggest offender being the walls. Having any character using an infinite on you for the duration of the wall is distinctly different from any match-ups in the other 5 neutral stages. That separates it from the rest of the Neutral stages. This is unique, however, because I don't think any other stage is as close to being Neutral as Pokemon Stadium I is. I think Delfino Plaza is quite similar.
While I like Flat Zone II, as I'm entertained by the music, it's damage hazards appear largely erratic and random. Can it be avoided? Maybe, by hanging at certain places of the stage. I believe the food-tossing backround G&W can even be killed to force back a stage shift. However, the falling movement of the food, the movement at the gas station and at the cage, all seem to show off a very random and possibly unavoidable nature. That element of luck is an issue. If anyone is willing to investigate fully the nature of the hazards...
Pokemon Stadium I ends up falling out of the neutral location due to it's walls, windmill, and stage shifts, with the biggest offender being the walls. Having any character using an infinite on you for the duration of the wall is distinctly different from any match-ups in the other 5 neutral stages. That separates it from the rest of the Neutral stages. This is unique, however, because I don't think any other stage is as close to being Neutral as Pokemon Stadium I is. I think Delfino Plaza is quite similar.
While I like Flat Zone II, as I'm entertained by the music, it's damage hazards appear largely erratic and random. Can it be avoided? Maybe, by hanging at certain places of the stage. I believe the food-tossing backround G&W can even be killed to force back a stage shift. However, the falling movement of the food, the movement at the gas station and at the cage, all seem to show off a very random and possibly unavoidable nature. That element of luck is an issue. If anyone is willing to investigate fully the nature of the hazards...
Corner-Trap
Smash Ace
Flat Zone 2 is the only stage on my ban list that I'm thinking about moving to the counter pick list. I'm starting to think that the stages hazard aren't as adverse as I initially thought. To me it seems that most players ban stages that they simply don't like, or if one character has an advantage on it. Both of those methods are seriously flawed to me.
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