Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Snail]

What exactly makes Lylat a counterpick, and why is Yoshi's Island in "Limbo"?

Port Town and Distant Planet should switch

Some silly people actually think the tilting is a big deal because it supposedly ruins auto-cancelling.

And no, Distant Planet should stay in CP... <3

 

[MysticKenji]

What exactly makes Lylat a counterpick, and why is Yoshi's Island in "Limbo"?

The tilting messes up auto-cancelling sometimes, which favors certain characters over others.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.

Port Town and Distant Planet should switch

I disagree.

Port Town seems like it'd be a good CP stage...until one of the cars flies into you and kills you @ 40%

As for Distant Planet...meh. It could go either way.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Bridge of Eldin and anything with walk-off blastzones except Castle Siege should really be banned.

 

[Patinator]

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville

Limbo:
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Counterpick:
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Mario Circuit
Norfair
Onett
PictoChat
Pirate Ship
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Banned:
75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Spear Pillar
Summit
Temple
Warioware

Critique plz.

Only problem here is the neutrals and counterpicks. I'm curious as to why Lylat Cruise is a counter-pick. If it's the tilt, it is very minor, and it's just an equal-hieght platform'd Battlefield otherwise. :/

Delfino should be a Counter-Pick stage, Pokemon Stadium... I'm torn between Neutral and Counter-Pick. You couldn't reliably counterpick this stage, since it changes so much and that's random, and it's a balanced stage for fifty or so seconds. Then the transformations last twenty-thirty, rough estimate. The windmill's pretty bad, but...

Yoshi's Island (Brawl) should remain neutral. It's a one-platform BF. Only problem is the Support Ghost, but other than that...

Skyworld should be banned. MUST I LIST THE REASONS?

I don't see any other problems at first glance. Not too bad!

*EDIT*: Actually, I agree with Erich. It isn't just the walkoff part either. Getting trapped under the BoE, and the bomb. It may be easy to avoid, but not if you get knocked into the blast. Skillful I suppose, but that thing kills you before Ike's Forward Smash does...

Green Hill Zone randomly splits apart. It's also smaller compared to other walk-off stages.

Mushroomy Kingdom is already banned on that list.

And... I can't remember the rest of the walk-off stages. X_x

*EDIT 2*: Pirate Ship needs ban-ment. The water makes it easy to kill people if you have a potent spike, I suppose, and you can do some horrible stuff involving the ship's bow when it lands on the rock. The cannon from the background is murderous. I've landed in the water from one hit, only to be blasted and KO'd by another.

Plus, during the floaty period, you can do some SICK stuff in the air with a ton of characters, like Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, even Snake...

 

[MysticKenji]

I'm curious as to why Lylat Cruise is a counter-pick. If it's the tilt, it is very minor, and it's just an equal-hieght platform'd Battlefield otherwise. :/

Yep.
I might send back up to Limbo.

Skyworld should be banned. MUST I LIST THE REASONS?

Please do.

*EDIT*: Actually, I agree with Erich. It isn't just the walkoff part either. Getting trapped under the BoE, and the bomb. It may be easy to avoid, but not if you get knocked into the blast. Skillful I suppose, but that thing kills you before Ike's Forward Smash does...

Airdodge.

And... I can't remember the rest of the walk-off stages. X_x

Permanent:
M-Kingdom
M-Circuit
Bridge
DP
75m
M-Bros
FZ2
GHZ
Yoshi [pipes]
Onett

Temporary:
Delfino Plaza
Pirate
Halberd
CS
Warioware
SMI
Rainbow Cruise
Big Blue

And all the things you've listed about Pirate Ship are CP-worthy

 

[Johnknight1]

mushroomy kingdom, norfair, hanebow, spear pillar, and distant planet

hell no

HAHAHAHA! Funny joke. Don't get me started. Brinstar has annoying platforms in Melee, that are annoying to players, and is far too small of a stage. Mushroom Kingdom (Melee) offered no moving room, and is crammed like crazy. Hyrule Temple is a giant abomination (in terms of size). MK II gives you no room to fight, and has less walking room in the entire stage then the bottom floor of Battlefield. Brinstar Depths is a complete and utter abomination. Yoshi's Island 64 IS the wost smash stage ever (rated by the SWF the worst, too). Infinite Glacier is f***ing stupid. FlatZone is basically unplayable. Venom has glitchy platforms, and divides itself. Big Blue is a piece of s*** that is unplayable.

NO BRAWL STAGE IS AS BAD AS THOSE! We didn't get smash 64 stages, which is a disappointment, but at least the only "bad" "competitive" Melee stages we got were Big Blue and Hyrule Temple. While I'd prefer 5 smash 64 stages over 10 Melee stages in Brawl anyday, at least most of the stages we got were good.

O, and you can basically write down "Melee has some of the worst smash and fighting game stages ever". Brawl's stages are FAR MORE BALANCED, PLAYABLE, AND FUN, since they are less glitchy, bigger (aka walkable), and like half of them don't have some stupid a** twist. Not to mention, I didn't go into the other "bad" stages. Basically-there are like 10 pure s*** Melee stages, and 5 to 8 so other okay at best stages. If you honestly compare those stages to Brinstar Depths, Infinte Glacier, Venom, FlatZone, and Yoshi's Island 64 in terms of unplayablility, you are absolutely out of your mind.

um...no?

the whole point of banning stages is to make a default fighting experience

you dont see lava flooding the background of street fighter 3 or dead or alive do you?

neutral stages are meant to have NO outside disruptions so then the true metagame of brawl can be tested just like in every other fighting game

Smash is a diffrent fighting game then others. We've had Brinstar legal, haven't we. If you can't dodge the lava basically, you suck. And if Final Destination, a stage that loves campers so much and is hardly balanced at all is nuetral, why shouldn't any of those stages be=??? ROB, Snake, Toon Link, Link, Pit, and others can just camp all f***ing day on that. I've been on the other side of those far to often, and it seriously pisses me off.

Nuetral stages are meant to be nuetral in most situations. I might have gone overboard with Norfair and Pirate Ship (they are at least counter-pick stages). Stage banning is meant to ban unplayable stages at competitive levels, (Yoshi's Island 64, Depths, Infinite Glacier) or stages with a lot of camping and stalling (Vemon and Princess Peach's Castle). Nothing more. We're not here to ban the stages we don't like-we're here to ban stages that are camper hell holds, and are basically competitively unplayable.

If Mute City can be legal, I don't see why most of those stages can't be legal. If you can't deal with a random factor in a playable stage, then stop Johning like a n00b, and go play a conventional fighting game, instead of a inconventional fighting game. A small, easily avoided minute random factor is nothing big. If you truely have "skill", you can deal with it, and not be a John.

...has no idea what he is talking about. Why are you in a topic about tourney stage legality if you don't go to tourneys? Not going to tourneys because of legal stages is the biggest johns I've ever heard, especially after you just said you consider the Melee legal list to be liberal.

Melee's list only bans Princess Peach's Castle (camping and stalling), Hyrule Temple (triangle loop), Brinstar Depths (sweet mother of God...), Yoshi's Island 64 (camping, and is too big) Venom (camping and stalling), Big Blue (competitively unplayable), Fourside (too big, self-dividing and too small of platforms), Infinite Glacier (competitively unplayable), FlatZone (too many interferences, camping, and wierd random layouts), and Mute City (doubles-banned only, due to being too small).

I was honestly posting the list that I thought was "at best" list, after seeing all these "ban everything" lists. And the fact everyone always makes out FD is the most neutral stage ever (it's the least neutral stage that's ever been a neutral stage actaully), when it's not. Play Roy in Melee on it, or Ike in Brawl, and you'll wanna f***ing stab someone in the leg. D*** those Falco laser spammers and ROB campers.

In reality, I think PictoChat, Pirate Ship, and Norfair are counterpicks, and I realize that stages like Rumble Falls, The Summit, and Hanebow should and will either be banned, or just doubles legal.

-Pirate Ships's water gives some character a large advantage outside the bounds of a neutral stage. Random cannonballs, even in avoidable, don't make things much better.

Counter-pick it then. As I said-I was probably being too fair to some stages, but we can all agree it is at least a counter-pick stage.

-Norfair isn't CP because of lava, it's CP because of the unorthodox platform layout with 3 edges on each side. Again, significant enough advantages/disadvantages.

Well then leave it as a counter-pick. It's at least a counter-pick, though (we should all agree on that).

-Yoshi's Island (Melee) has a very biased layout and a low ceiling. This is not a neutral stage.

I didn't have it as a nuetral stage. I had it as a counter-pick, like it is in Melee. :embarrass

God I hate that stage. If I wasn't trying to be fair, I'd ban it faster then 75 meters just because I hate it! Don't even mention that God forsaken Super Mario World song, or the God-awful, SMB3 remix that insults that game's greatness!

-Pokemon Stadium 2's conveyors and wind also offer heavy advantages/disadvantages. (Honestly, they aren't that bad though... If someone from the future told me it would one day be neutral, I'd believe them.)

The wind transformation just basically stalls the match. It doesn't give oto much of a advantage. The electric transformation does the same, but it's bearable, and more fightable, thanks to the center and the platfroms. Stuff could also be said about Pokémon Stadium 1's transformations, in Brawl and Melee. The fire and rock transformations can cause massive stallings in matches, and does...quite often. Not to mention the non-pass through windmill in Brawl (which I guess has it's ups and downs=less camping!). But it's still nuetral, is it not=???

Although I prefer PS1 over PS2 by a bit, PS2 is definitely neutral (as well). I don't see why it's not a neutral stage. It's in the normal setting more then any other setting, and it's one of the most nuetral settings ever. The Ice transformation is very playable, and the mountain transformation is very fair, and probably one of my favorite transformations out of any of the PS1 or 2 transformations.

-Picto-Chat has random stuff out the wing-wang.

Counter-pick it then. It isn't that bad, though, and is bearable. It is at least playable...unlike FlatZone. Some of it's bad, but most of it is bearable.

-Why do you have Delfino Plaza and Luigi's Mansion as CP if your Neutral list includes the likes of Pirate Ship?

-Meah, I guess I had to cut back somewhere. To heck with it-Luigi's Mansion is nuetral (though possibly too big). Even though Delfino Plaza is my favorite smash stage ever, I'm still going to say it's like Rainbow Ride: 1v1 counter-pick, 2v2 nuetral.

-Mario Circuit is not banned for karts, that's absurd. It's banned because DeDeDe can chainthrow over half the cast to insta-death there. Bridge of Eldin too.

Use the Ness-Saffron ruling then (as I stated in my post before posting the stages). If someone is Dedede, then switch the stage like with the Ness-Saffron City ruling. Or you could limit the De3 chain grab to 3 grabs or something like that. I think with Brawl, we can and will have to use the Ness-Saffron City ruling a lot, with stages without edges (for Olimar and Ivysaur; probably not Zamus, since her dB and jumping recovery is pretty good on it's own)

-Rumble Falls and Summit are in no way legal, though both are much better than most people make them out to be.

That's why I said with Rumble Falls maybe (that could be a yes or a no, though I would personally would prefer a yes) only doubles, since it seems to big for singles. I also think the same applies to the the Summit as well.

-Havenbow has been discussed; obviously banned.

Well I disagree. I think Hanebow is at least doubles counter-pick worthy. The platforms are dealable, and with doubles the size isn't too much of a issue. I think it's at least worth a try. We tried out Venom and Princess Peach's Castle for a while (ergh...), after all! With singles-I honestly do not really care what the ruling is.

I'm just gonna tell you the truth: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in any of this.

Everyone is banning every stage in every tournament I've entered. Honestly, when f***ing Rainbow Ride, a Melee 1v1 counter-pick stage, and Melee doubles nuetral stage is banned, something is f***ed up! Tell any pro Rainbow Ride is a banable stage, and you'd get laughed at. And yet people continue to ban it!

 

[Patinator]

Yep.
I might send back up to Limbo.

I suppose that out of the obvious, first-glance Neutrals, Lylat Cruise is the oddball. But even so...

Oh well.

Please do.

Let's see...

One: it is a TECH CITY. Skilled players tech the walls, surviving a ton of damage, or people just bounce around!

Two: the platforms a rather small. That isn't really a point against it, I suppose.

Three: You can destroy the edges, killing any chance of recovery for Ivy, Olimar, and Zamus. I know of her Down B; it won't get you everywhere.

Airdodge.

Well, there's your solution.

Permanent:
M-Kingdom
M-Circuit
Bridge
DP
75m
M-Bros
FZ2GHZ
Yoshi [pipes]
Onett
Temporary:
Delfino Plaza
PirateHalberd
CS
WariowareSMI
Rainbow Cruise
Big Blue

Alright, thanks.

The bolded ones are, at a glance, ban worth for things other than walk-off edges. I might've missed one.

And all the things you've listed about Pirate Ship are CP-worthy

Add up all the different hazards of any kind... The ship's bow, the catapult, the bombs, the floatiness... and you have a comparably large amount when it comes to hazard stages.. If I want that kind of random haxor-like madness going on, I'll play with Smash Balls. o_O

_________________________________________________________________

I would really like that only the "fairest" of fair stages be allowed in tournaments, and the least crazy of counter-pick worthy stages as counter-picks. I hate to ban a ton of stages, but tournaments are supposed to show fighting skill. Not stage abuse skill. But I doubt that'll happen.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville

Limbo:
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Counterpick:
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Mario Circuit
Norfair
Onett
PictoChat
Pirate Ship
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Banned:
75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Spear Pillar
Summit
Temple
Warioware

Critique plz.

Pokemon Stadium 1 seems balanced enough to be a neutral, it always has been. The walls that emerge give you warning and it prevents camping.

Delfino Plaza should be a counter-pick. Personally, I have always believed that the immediate rising causes accidental SDs, and when the platforms disappear, it tends to be during when somebody was about to die or be spiked and the water/ flat ground saves an opponent.

I'm not going to dive into the subject of Yoshi's Island [Brawl] and Lylat Cruise's tilted platforms. It's still debatable whether or not these stages should be neutral or counter-pick; most opinions are solely just opinion. Every neutral stage favors different characters in one way or another, and some even have issues that arise during play, so the decision where these two stages should end up should be discussed more before being finally decided.

Battleship Halberd is, again, debatable like Yoshi's Island [Brawl] and Lylat Cruise, though it should technically be counter-pick. Some argue that the background weapons are predictable, while others still get hit by them. So far, decisions seem to be leaning over the counter-pick area; there are enough neutral stages for this stage to be counter-pick, and the background guns can cause KOs or disrupt gameplay.

Hanenbow and Green Hill Zone should be banned due to glitches.

Pirate Ship is an odd stage, but it should be banned. Many believe that it should be banned due to the background cannons, the odd territory, all of the hazards, and the fact that the water saves your opponent's from both falling and being spiked.

Norfair and Skyworld should simply be banned, there is little reason for explanations.

Mario Circuit and Bridge of Eldin should be banned, mainly due to walk-off blastzones. The bomb on the bridge, the sudden closure of the bridge, and the fact that characters can chaingrab others off the edge warrants a solid ban for Bridge of Eldin, while Mario Circuit's cars (not a huge issue) and allowance of chaingrabbing off the edge warrants a ban as well.

Onett could be further discussed, but I'm not quite sure where it'd go. Onett's sudden cars (sometimes, there is not enough warning), walls, and walk-off blastzones could be debatable for a ban, though I personally believe that it should remain as a counter-pick. The cars seem to have enough warning sometimes, the walk-off blastzones aren't much of an issue, and the cars can stop infinite wall-combos.

Jungle Japes really should be banned as the water saves characters from being spiked or from falling.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is debatable for being banned. Not only do the windmills break the gameplay and allow certain characters to rack up much damage with aerials, but the conveyor belts are definitely disruptive of gameplay.

 

[MysticKenji]

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 1
Smashville

Limbo:
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Counterpick:
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Delfino Plaza
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
PictoChat
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Limbo #2:
Hanenbow
Onett

Banned:
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
Summit
Temple
Warioware

@Hanenbow
What glitch?
If you're talking about the Spindash one, that can be avoided by simply not using Spindash

@Norfair
Yes, explanation required

@Jungle Japes
Water is not a valid reason for a ban

(Did I miss anything?)

 

[AlexX]

The tilting messes up auto-cancelling sometimes, which favors certain characters over others.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.

Do you have any evidence proving it?

I don't want to sound rude, but if it was a big deal, why did you wait until now to say that it was a problem? Why didn't you bring it up earlier in the topic?

EDIT:

Hanenbow and Green Hill Zone should be banned due to glitches.

What glitches?

Norfair and Skyworld should simply be banned, there is little reason for explanations.

Skyworld I can understand, but why Norfair? We've already established that the lava isn't that terrible.

 

[Man_With_Thooo]

Here's how I think the list should look like:

Neutral:

Final Destination - Nothing wrong here except campers and the annoying lips on the ledges, but those could be dealt with through skill.

Battlefield - Probably the most neutral stage ever. Size is perfect, not too camp-friendly, perfect ledges, etc.

Smashville - Also completely neutral. Nothing wrong with it.

Yoshi's Island (Brawl) - Nothing wrong with this stage except the support ghost, which actually helps more than it hurts.

Lylat Cruise - Tilting here is very minimal. Sure, it ruins auto-cancelling, but only for a very short duration. This stage should still remain neutral.

Battleship Halberd - Stage hazards are REALLY easy to dodge, and you could even use them to your own advantage if you have enough skill.

Pokemon Stadium 1 - This was neutral in Melee, and should remain neutral in Brawl. Just a simple size reduction won't do much harm.




Counterpick:

Castle Siege - Temporary walk off ledges make me think of this stage as a counterpick instead of a neutral. I swear I hate walk off ledges. Also, the second phase of this stage is a little too big. Fast characters could run away.

Frigate Orpheon - Right ledge is hard to grab on to and you're screwed if the stage turns upside-down while you're trying to recover. Still very fair aside from those two problems, though.

Norfair - Lava can be dodged with enough skill, but sometimes there's just TOO MUCH lava. Also, the fact that there are three ledges on each side doesn't really feel right. Still a playable stage, though.

Brinstar - The acid/lava is the only thing keeping still stage from being neutral in my opinion.

Pirate Ship - Many stage hazards, yet they're all very easy to dodge. Even the bombs aren't all that bad. The swimmable water, though, is the problem. Characters that rely a lot on spikes, such as Falco, are gonna have a pretty hard time KOing people here.

Delfino Plaza - Temporary swimmable water and walk-off ledges keep this stage from being neutral. Still, everything else about this stage is neutral.

Mario Circuit - Annoying walk-off ledges, and karts come a little too often despite being easy to dodge. Still playable, though.

Luigi's Mansion - Just some non drop-through-able platforms keep this stage from being neutral.

Pictochat - Playable, although stage hazards come a little too often.

Jungle Japes - Thankfully the water's actually swimmable unlike in Melee, therefore making this stage playable. The current of the water, though, is still a little too strong.

Pokemon Stadium 2 - Electric transformation has some really annoying edges, Flying transformation stalls the match, and Ice transformation has some really low traction. Still, most of this stage is playable.

Rainbow Cruise - Playable, although you'll have to put some effort into the moving rather than focusing 100% on the fighting.

Yoshi's Island (Melee) - Not too big anymore, and the three blocks in the middle aren't as threatening. Take note, not AS threatening. They could still cause death in some situations. Also, I hate that up-hill slope on the right side.

Shadow Moses Island - Playable, despite the temporary walls on either side and the annoying walk-off ledges. Characters still have the option to star-KO here, though.

Green-Greens - Explosives, the tree, and apples are all not as threatening anymore, although they do get very annoying sometimes.

Onnet - Cars sometimes don't give enough warning, too many walls, and annoying walk-off ledges. Still not enough to get this stage banned, though.

Banned:

75m - Too big, feels too restricted, items pop out of nowhere, walk-off ledges on the right side.

Big Blue - Come on, everyone knows why this should be banned.

Bridge of Eldin - Too big, too camp-friendly, walk-off ledges on either side, bomb kills way too easily, gap between sides (when the bridge is destroyed) is a little too big.

Flat Zone 2 - Stage hazards have some incredibly high knock back.

Green Hill Zone - Curve in the middle negates a lot of combos, splits a little TOO randomly, walk- off ledges.

Mario Bros. - Pretty much impossible to KO people here.

Mushroomy Kingdom - A lot of characters can simply hold you against a wall and let the scrolling finish you off.

New Pork City - WAAAAAAAAY too big! Even worse than Hyrule Temple.

Port Town Aero Dive - Cars are hard to dodge and KO at very low percents.

Rumble Falls - Scrolls way too fast despite the warnings given. Also pretty freaking big.

Skyworld - Too many walls, platforms can't be dropped through, gives major disadvantages to tether-recovery characters, matches here last way too long.

Spear Pillar - Cave of life, really big and annoying loop, too chaotic.

Summit - Annoying loop, swimmable water, and most of all, the stupid, random fish that pops out of nowhere and KOs you with ease. I hate that fish.

Temple - Too big, cave of life.

Warioware - Way too chaotic, forces people to focus more on the mini-games rather than the fighting.

Still haven't decided on:

Hanenbow
Corneria

 

[x After Dawn x]

@Hanenbow
What glitch?
If you're talking about the Spindash one, that can be avoided by simply not using Spindash

Yes, but why create limits and boundaries for characters just because of a simple glitch? It's not fair that a character cannot choose to do what he wants due to a glitch and suffer a great penalty if it accidentally happens. Most people have already established tier lists that have this stage banned, you should too.

@Norfair
Yes, explanation required

Perhaps it's just my personal opinion, but the lava seems a tad unfair on this level, especially during the moment where characters must hide in that little tube as the lava goes over. If it's generally agreed upon that this stage is counter-pick (which I'm not quite sure if it is), then keep it counter-pick.

@Jungle Japes
Water is not a valid reason for a ban

At some tourneys that I know of, it already is banned just due to the water. It might not seem too much of a problem, but when a character pulls off a clean spike and the victim simply jumps out of the water, it's unfair. Take the right side, for example. If you knock an enemy off the edge and you're waiting for them to come back, they can simply fall into the water and drift on to the left side of the level, where they will jump out on to the platform. The water currents are also fast, preventing you from reaching the other side in time.

(Did I miss anything?)

I think you forgot to mention why you kept Pokemon Stadium 2 in counter-pick.

Other than these minor issues that we are debating upon, I find your tier list very accurate.

Edit: I'm glad to see that you chose Bridge of Eldin to be banned. Its walk-off edges create one-sided battles for chaingrabbers; its gap in the middle breaks the gameplay; the gap and the overall size creates camping games; the bomb tends to have too many KOs, and King Bulbin disrupts gameplay; the falling bridge can trap some characters if they are attempting to recover.
---

Battleship Halberd - Stage hazards are REALLY easy to dodge, and you could even use them to your own advantage if you have enough skill.

That's exactly why it should be counter-pick, it disrupts gameplay.

 

[smashbro29]

I say

Neutral
1.final destination
2.battefield
3.yoshi's island(brawl)
4.lylat cruise
5.smashville

COUNTERPICK-
1.Delfino
2.luigi's mansion
3.mario circuit
4.bridge of eldin
5.frigate orpheon
6.Halberd
7.Port Town
8.Castle siege
9.Summit
10.GHZ

banned
the rest

if you don't understand one of my choices please tell me you may even change my mind

other than summit was my list any good? cause this how i'm playing and i would hate to get atatched to a stage and learn later i can't use it in tournys

 

[x After Dawn x]

other than summit was my list any good? cause this how i'm playing and i would hate to get atatched to a stage and learn later i can't use it in tournys

Some of those stages that you have in counter-pick (Port Town Aero Dive, Bridge of Eldin, Green Hill Zone, Mario Circuit) should be banned, and many of the stages that you banned should be in counter-pick.

 

[Mic_128]

Yes, but why create limits and boundaries for characters just because of a simple glitch? It's not fair that a character cannot choose to do what he wants due to a glitch and suffer a great penalty if it accidentally happens.

But everyone should lose a stage because of one attack of one character? Deal with it. Nothing's wrong with electroplankton.

Most people have already established tier lists that have this stage banned, you should too.

Thing is, this topic has shown that 'most people' haven't got a clue (until after being shown the facts)

Perhaps it's just my personal opinion, but the lava seems a tad unfair on this level, especially during the moment where characters must hide in that little tube as the lava goes over.

the giant lava wave can be jumped over, side-step dodged or just plain shielded.

At some tourneys that I know of, it already is banned just due to the water. It might not seem too much of a problem, but when a character pulls off a clean spike and the victim simply jumps out of the water, it's unfair.

And if he landed onto solid ground it's more fair? It's things like that that make it a good counterpick.

The water currents are also fast, preventing you from reaching the other side in time.

I thought you just said that if someones spiked into the water they can jump right out? Is the water speedy death, or is it a sinch to get out of?

I think you forgot to mention why you kept Pokemon Stadium 2 in counter-pick.

The main reason is the electric stages rollers, and other things such as the ice and the airs floatyness.

EDIT:

Some of those stages that you have in counter-pick (Port Town Aero Dive, Bridge of Eldin, Green Hill Zone, Mario Circuit) should be banned, and many of the stages that you banned should be in counter-pick.

There is nothing wrong with Green hill Zone or Mario circut.

 

[Shök]

I say you got it right except the cras in onett are Gay
It should be banned

 

[Vulcan55]

What do you guys think of this list. It's my first go.

Neuteral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Yoshi's Island
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick:
Delfino Plaza
Mario Circut
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Pictochat
Hanenbou
Shadow Moses Island
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Junge Japes
Corneria
Brinstar

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Warioware Inc.
Distant Planet
New Pork City
Summit
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Onett
Big Blue

Undecided:
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise (either CP or ban)

If you want an explanation for a certain stage, just ask.

 

[Llumys]

Norfair? Legal? Ha.

 

[MysticKenji]

Norfair is not Neutral, it's CP due to its layout and hazards.

Mansion is also not Neutral. Temporary CoL.

Rainbow Cruise and Green Greens are not ban worthy. CP them both.

 

[Recognize]

Hanenbow is the gayest stage ever.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Any stage with walk-offs is a ban for me. I don't know how people can see it otherwise. The only walk-offs I accept (even LIKE) are the ones that are only partially walk-offs (Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza).

 

[Sliq]

Ummm...why are we discussing stages that are already banned?

Hey Sliq, how many characters are affected by the tilt on Lylat, in terms of cancelled mid-air moves? Ike...who else?

Every character that has a move that auto-cancels, which is a lot of people.

The ones I know for sure are Ganondorf, Ike, Wolf, Bowser, and Lucas. Others also have auto-cancels, but some have more leeway than others (Bowser's fair can be fastfalled for a few frames, but Ganon's dair is basically frame specific).

I know that there are other characters with auto-cancels, but I'm not sure how frame specific they are (Ness's dair, Pikachu's fair, Lucas's nair).

Some have enough freedom to still auto-cancel on YI, but Lylat tilts enough to ruin it.

Doesn't matter if it's a national tournament or city tournament. Tournaments are tournaments and make it a lot easier to see what stages are fair and which aren't.

Actually, attending a tournament with a bunch of noobs and winning on completely ridiculous stages will give some people the notion that these stages aren't completely ridiculous for tournament play since they ,"don't have any problem playing on them."

However, when you play good people that EXPLOIT the stage, and get wrecked, it makes a big difference.

So, you're wrong.

I'm not the one who said it would be easy to prove an argument and then proceed to say it's so obvious that doing so isn't needed, despite the fact nobody else but Thinkaman ever agreeing on your claim, nor was it ever brought up until you did. Calling me stupid doesn't help your argument, either.

I told you what to do. Jesus Christ. Pick any character that has a move that auto-cancels, try to perform said auto-cancel on the stage.

If you don't know which characters have auto-cancels or how to perform auto-cancels, then you probably don't know wnough to make a valid stage argument.

What should I call someone who won't take 15 seconds to try and auto-cancel on Lylat, besides stupid?

I'd like nothing more than to fight you on Wifi to prove the stage doesn't bother me as significantly as you claim it would, but I'm afraid I don't have a Wifi connection. You're probably going to say I'm just arguing this to avoid you, but I don't really know what could be done about that since I am not sure how I can prove it...

Well, seeing as how you don't have wifi, I can assume you don't fight people on wifi. And if you don't fight people on wifi, then you must only fight your friends. I don't think I need to elaborate any more. You are a noob. I use noob because you claim to know what you are talking about despite the fact that you don't.

Nehe...wow, this thread is becoming a little ludicrous. This is a stage discussion people! Sliq, calm down and stop being a loser towards those who you would deem 'inferior' to you and just post intelligently on why you think stuff should be banned, neutral, or CP. It doesn't help when you just post stuff that has nothing to do with stages, but completely bashes everyone. And that goes for everyone who is just arguing pointless stuff in here: be helpful or leave. Don't discuss tournament experience in here, don't discuss who is who and who has attended more tournaments or knows this or that person, because quite frankly nobody actually cares about that in a stage discussion thread. At least no one should care...move that kind of banter to another thread please.

You find me a post in this thread where I don't make a valid point, and I won't think you are a giant ******.

You giant ******.

 

[Empy]

other than summit was my list any good? cause this how i'm playing and i would hate to get atatched to a stage and learn later i can't use it in tournys

Well I think it would rather go the other way around. You might want to drop summit because of the high changes of it being banned. But besides that I don't see any stages that are too likely to get banned.

I say you got it right except the cras in onett are Gay
It should be banned

Wait, the cars in Onett are too easy to avoid. I don't see how they can become a reason to ban that stage.

Neuteral:
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair

I think both of these should be counterpick. Especially Norfair, which greatly helps tether recovery.

Banned:
Distant Planet
Onett

Undecided:
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise (either CP or ban)

I don't see why DP or Onett should be banned.
I would move both the GG and RC to CP.

Norfair? Legal? Ha.

Counterpick legal, sure.

Hanenbow is the gayest stage ever.

But we are not talking about sexual preferences that a certain pixel tree might have, we are talking about stage legality (the topic title was a subtile hint).

Any stage with walk-offs is a ban for me. I don't know how people can see it otherwise. The only walk-offs I accept (even LIKE) are the ones that are only partially walk-offs (Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza).

But WHY? Why should walk-offs be banned? I really like the Mario Circuit stage myself so.

 

[Sliq]

Double Post.

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, attending a tournament with a bunch of noobs and winning on completely ridiculous stages will give some people the notion that these stages aren't completely ridiculous for tournament play since they ,"don't have any problem playing on them."

However, when you play good people that EXPLOIT the stage, and get wrecked, it makes a big difference.

So, you're wrong.

This is completely true. You'll see random local tourneys with ******** stages and stuff like no team damage... I remember one with Termina Bay legal...

 

[Oracle]

But WHY? Why should walk-offs be banned? I really like the Mario Circuit stage myself so.

D3's chaingrab, for now. It basically gives him a free stock if he grabs someone.

 

[Serris]

D3's chaingrab, for now. It basically gives him a free stock if he grabs someone.

I really think that we should only be factoring the Ice Climbers' chaingrab into walk-off legality. D3's is escapable by almost everyone.

As for Lylat Cruise, I use Samus and I use Hylian's grapple cancel on this stage. A lot. It doesn't bother me.

Unless you're completely clueless as to re-assessing the timing of jumps and attacks, you shouldn't have a problem with the tilting. Just because the stage has a situational handicap doesn't mean it should be an automatic counterpick.

Oh, and didn't you notice that it tilts to both sides? That means it can hinder your opponent just as much as it hinders you.

Lylat Cruise is n e u t r a l. If you can't deal with the tilting, then practice on it until you can.

 

[Sliq]

I really think that we should only be factoring the Ice Climbers' chaingrab into walk-off legality. D3's is escapable by almost everyone.

No, it isn't. It is inescapable unless the D3 player screws up. Certain characters don't get grabbed, but characters heavier than Marth DO get INFINITELY CG'd.

As for Lylat Cruise, I use Samus and I use Hylian's grapple cancel on this stage. A lot. It doesn't bother me.

The Beam Grapple cancels UPON LANDING. You obviously have no idea what auto-canceling is.

Unless you're completely clueless as to re-assessing the timing of jumps and attacks, you shouldn't have a problem with the tilting. Just because the stage has a situational handicap doesn't mean it should be an automatic counterpick.

Your ignorance is pissing me off. Seriously, shut up. You have no idea what you are talking about. Learn what auto-canceling is, then play a character that needs it before you run off your mouth about **** you don't know about.

Oh, and didn't you notice that it tilts to both sides? That means it can hinder your opponent just as much as it hinders you.

Unless you play a character that has aerials with negligible landing lag, and doesn't rely on auto-canceling. Seeing as how Marth and MK players don't even have to worry about auto-canceling as their moves have almost no landing lag at all,, they can disregard the tilting. Characters that need auto-canceling, on the other hand, get wrecked by the tilting.

This doesn't evenly impact players unless they both are playing the same characters.

Lylat Cruise is n e u t r a l. If you can't deal with the tilting, then practice on it until you can.

No amount of practice is going to reduce lag from landing during an aerial because the stage moved.

Seriously, kill yourself. You are so misinformed and ignorant that I want a nuclear holocaust to destroy all of mankind, just so I know your stupidity is no longer corrupting the universe.

 

[AlexX]

Actually, attending a tournament with a bunch of noobs and winning on completely ridiculous stages will give some people the notion that these stages aren't completely ridiculous for tournament play since they ,"don't have any problem playing on them."

But if they don't experience any problem, it still says something about the stage. If people go an entire tournament without ever getting hit by the cars in Port Town, then that shows they might not be as significant a threat as we think they are, making the stage a stronger candidate for CP rather than banning (though note that this is just a hypothetical example... I'm not saying Port Town cars aren't dangerous or anything).

I told you what to do. Jesus Christ. Pick any character that has a move that auto-cancels, try to perform said auto-cancel on the stage.

But that doesn't prove that it can easily be punished. That's why I asked for an in-battle example.

If you don't know which characters have auto-cancels or how to perform auto-cancels, then you probably don't know wnough to make a valid stage argument.

What should I call someone who won't take 15 seconds to try and auto-cancel on Lylat, besides stupid?

I know what characters have auto-cancels and haven't been punished on the stage, be it from human or CPU players (and yes, I have been to local tournaments where people play to win).

Calling me stupid doesn't help your argument because... well, since when do personal attacks help in a debate? They don't and make you look unprofessional.

Well, seeing as how you don't have wifi, I can assume you don't fight people on wifi. And if you don't fight people on wifi, then you must only fight your friends. I don't think I need to elaborate any more. You are a noob. I use noob because you claim to know what you are talking about despite the fact that you don't.

Because god FORBID I disagree with you on anything...

Look at my other arguments for stages. I may be fairly liberal about stage bans, but I don't argue against banning ones that are obviously not tournament-legal like Mushroomy Kingdom and Warioware, Inc. and have argued for the banning of some stages like Spear Pillar.

 

[Sliq]

But if they don't experience any problem, it still says something about the stage. If people go an entire tournament without ever getting hit by the cars in Port Town, then that shows they might not be as significant a threat as we think they are, making the stage a stronger candidate for CP rather than banning (though note that this is just a hypothetical example... I'm not saying Port Town cars aren't dangerous or anything).

Let's say you play a noob fox on Termina and win. Then you play someone who isn't ********, and they use the loop to infinitely run away and shoot you with lasers.

Ability and experience are necessary to make an accurate assessment.

But that doesn't prove that it can easily be punished. That's why I asked for an in-battle example.

How isn't 32 frames of lag easily punished?

I know what characters have auto-cancels and haven't been punished on the stage, be it from human or CPU players (and yes, I have been to local tournaments where people play to win).

You joined THIS YEAR and are trying to bust out personal anecdotes about your "experience?" Furthermore, local tournaments are jokes.

Calling me stupid doesn't help your argument because... well, since when do personal attacks help in a debate? They don't and make you look unprofessional.

You don't even have an argument, besides doing nothing and parroting "prove it," over and over again.

Because god FORBID I disagree with you on anything...

Basically, disagreeing with me on anything means you are wrong.

Look at my other arguments for stages. I may be fairly liberal about stage bans, but I don't argue against banning ones that are obviously not tournament-legal like Mushroomy Kingdom and Warioware, Inc. and have argued for the banning of some stages like Spear Pillar.

So what? I don't see the relevance in arguing against OBVIOUSLY unplayable stages.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

and Mute City (doubles-banned only, due to being too small).

banned due to lag actually, same reason FoD doesn't appear on melee teams (and if either stage were banned due to being too small, yoshi's is neutral on melee teams)

 

[AlexX]

Let's say you play a noob fox on Termina and win. Then you play someone who isn't ********, and they use the loop to infinitely run away and shoot you with lasers.

That's an obvious stage, though. Ones that are borderline need all the help they can get to decide where they go.

How isn't 32 frames of lag easily punished?

That's the exact number of frames?

You joined THIS YEAR and are trying to bust out personal anecdotes about your "experience?" Furthermore, local tournaments are jokes.

Join time is irrelevant. I've been in competative melee for long before I joined here.

You don't even have an argument, besides doing nothing and parroting "prove it," over and over again.

Personal experience matters, especially on a stage that is (now) borderline. There's also the unexplained fact that people didn't start mentioning until you brought it up (and even then, counting you that's only 3).

Basically, disagreeing with me on anything means you are wrong.

And that is the sound of your credability going out the window...

So what? I don't see the relevance in arguing against OBVIOUSLY unplayable stages.

Stages like Spear Pillar and Jungle Japes are still arguable, though. They're obviously unplayable to some people, but to others they're legitimate counterpicks.

 

[Chris Lionheart]

Stages that are okay/neutral (in my opinion)
Final Destination
Battlefield (Its like a smaller FD with platforms)
Bridge of Eldin (sure it has a hazard, but its rediculously predictable and very enjoyable)
Castle Siege (aside from being awesome, there is very little stage hazard, despite changing battlefields)
Yoshi's Island
Shadow Moses (no real stage hazards here)

Stages that should be banned
Flat Zone 2 (Just plain rediculous)
Flat Zone (again)
Poke'mon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar (WTF)
Big Blue (I like it, but I could see where it would get annoying)
Port Town (the cars.... wtf)


Why ban stages due to chaingrabbing... ban chaingrabbing!


These are just a few.

 

[Eten]

You've got to build some hard and fast rules on what would and would not be fair on stages and have absolutely solid logic behind it.

Example: Unmanipulatable random elements, like the different awards in the Wario Ware minigames, introduce an element of luck, and someone winning a tournament because they are "lucky" defeats the purpose of the tournament awarding the "best" player.

At this point, I seriously don't think there is any reason to ban anything unless it has one of these two traits-
1- Wario Ware randomness
2- Infinite Stalling by running away on a circular path.

Because I've not seen any other reasoning that doesn't amount "it's gay" or "it favors x character too much"- which is just an argument for using stages to attempt to arbitrarily re-arrange character tiers.

I think those hard and fast rules need to be set for the Neutral/starter stage selection too, if you guys can figure out what would make sense you'll end up just agreeing and this whole flaming stuff will go away.

 

[Thinkaman]

That's the exact number of frames?

What you think he is lying? Why would anyone lie about that?

Join time is irrelevant. I've been in competative melee for long before I joined here.

What Sliq is getting at with the tact of an elephant break-dancing is that we're getting an image here of someone with a recent join date blatantly choosing to ignore the mechanics of the game. Go play anyone good at the game, including any of hundreds of people on smashboards, and try to play a character with lots of landing lag without auto-canceling.

Stages like Spear Pillar and Jungle Japes are still arguable, though. They're obviously unplayable to some people, but to others they're legitimate counterpicks.

There is nothing wrong with Jungle Japes but johning idiots. There is everything wrong with Spear Pillar; it has a loop and randomized extremely disruptive effects. It also has a loop, and a dungeon that is worse than Hyrule Temple's. Did I mention it also has a loop?

Stages that are okay/neutral (in my opinion)
Final Destination
Battlefield (Its like a smaller FD with platforms)
Bridge of Eldin (sure it has a hazard, but its rediculously predictable and very enjoyable)
Castle Siege (aside from being awesome, there is very little stage hazard, despite changing battlefields)
Yoshi's Island
Shadow Moses (no real stage hazards here)

Stages that should be banned
Flat Zone 2 (Just plain rediculous)
Flat Zone (again)
Poke'mon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar (WTF)
Big Blue (I like it, but I could see where it would get annoying)
Port Town (the cars.... wtf)

Why ban stages due to chaingrabbing... ban chaingrabbing!

These are just a few.

Flat Zone isn't even a stage in Brawl. I'm sorry if we can't take you seriously.

You've got to build some hard and fast rules on what would and would not be fair on stages and have absolutely solid logic behind it.

Example: Unmanipulatable random elements, like the different awards in the Wario Ware minigames, introduce an element of luck, and someone winning a tournament because they are "lucky" defeats the purpose of the tournament awarding the "best" player.

At this point, I seriously don't think there is any reason to ban anything unless it has one of these two traits-
1- Wario Ware randomness
2- Infinite Stalling by running away on a circular path.

Because I've not seen any other reasoning that doesn't amount "it's gay" or "it favors x character too much"- which is just an argument for using stages to attempt to arbitrarily re-arrange character tiers.

I think those hard and fast rules need to be set for the Neutral/starter stage selection too, if you guys can figure out what would make sense you'll end up just agreeing and this whole flaming stuff will go away.

I completely agree, except it is a little less concise than you are letting on. Do 75m and Havenbow count as loops? Most think they do.

Furthermore, as I have pointed out previously in the topic, Mushroomy Kingdom (BOTH) changes the nature of the game too much, like Mario Bros. You might as well go play heavy brawl or some other variant, because at that point you are no longer really playing the same game as the rest the matchups on the rest of the stages. The moves just operate too differently.

 

[AlexX]

What you think he is lying? Why would anyone lie about that?

Quit jumping to conclusions. I just wanted to know if that was an exact number or an estimate.

What Sliq is getting at with the tact of an elephant break-dancing is that we're getting an image here of someone with a recent join date blatantly choosing to ignore the mechanics of the game. Go play anyone good at the game, including any of hundreds of people on smashboards, and try to play a character with lots of landing lag without auto-canceling.

Why do you keep acting like I'm saying it doesn't happen? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it doesn't have significant enough of an effect to make Lylat Cruise a CP stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, it's hard to argue with that, since I *DON'T* want Lylat CP personally. I'm just acknowledging Sliq's legitimate argument: It is a rather bad stage for some matchups.

However, that alone does not make it CP worthy. It probably would if we had no personal stage bans, but since we ARE allowed to ban stages that are bad for our character, we can be a little more liberal in what stages are allowed. For example, Yoshi's Story and Dream Land were VERY biased stages for a large number of matchups in Melee. Yoshi's Story was TERRIBLE for Jigglypuff, so I banned it every single set of my Melee career, except a single time agaisnt a Samus player. (I banned Pokemon Stadium, and he hated me for it.)

Similarly, if Ganondorf does turn out to be my main, I will likely always ban or veto Lylat Cruise. That way I don't have to be subjected to it's unfair tilting, while many other matchups where it is a reasonably fair stage can enjoy it on random.

Sliq, have you seen darkrain's rules?

- Each player is allowed to reset the random stage once; this forces a new random stage to be picked. One non-neutral stage may be banned from counterpicks.

IMO this is pretty much perfection. Even aside from what stages are neutral/random and non-neutral/counterpick, I see this as the absolute best, simplest, and most straightforward system possible.

 

[jmed591]

Shouldn't Luigi's Mansion be a counterpick since the pillars can be fairly easily used against projectile-based characters? The lower pillars especially can be used for a long time since going to the 2nd floor to destroy the upper pillars puts you at a significant disadvantage to someone on the bottom floor.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...

Neutral

Yoshi's Island
Final Destination
Smashville
Battlefield

"Limbo"

Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpick

Luigi's Mansion
Castle Siege
Deflino Plaza
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Norfair
Halberd
Pictochat
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Raibow Cruise
Green Greens
Brinstar
Distant Planet

Counterpick Limbo

Port Town Aero Dive
Hanenbow
Pokemon Stadium 2

Banned

Everything else:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Bridge of Eldin
Rumble Falls
Mario Circuit
Spear Pillar
Warioware
New Pork City
Icicle Summit
75 m.
Skyworld
Super Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Hyrule Temple
Yosih's Island(Melee)
Big Blue

Uncertain Ban

Onett

What do you think of that list? Feedback people! We also need to have no more limbo stages, and just place them, but we can do that after we agree on a general list.

I personally think that Pokemon Stadium 2 should be banned. The effects it has on the players are a little over the top. The ice makes you slide, the wind screws with gravity and you float all over(so does Great Sea, but only for an incredibly short time) until the stage switches basically. The electric belts continually move you off the ledge, killing all forms of attack for some people and making it easier to suicide. I'm not for it.

 

[Sliq]

That's the exact number of frames?

I believe that is the lag from Ganon's fair. Ganons dair, bair, and up air all have comparative amounts of lag. I wouldn't be surprised of they had less lag than his fair, but I'm pretty sure Ganon's fair is 32 frames.

Interesting enough, Ganon's fair CAN be auto-canceled, albeit it is frame intensive and not very useful.

And that is the sound of your credability going out the window...

That isn't based off of the fact that I'm the greatest (which I am). It is based off of the fact that I don't post in discussions I don't know a lot about. So when I do post, it is either inquisitive, or I am speaking about something I know about.

And since I haven't asked questions in this thread, I think we both know what I'm talking about.

My point about Lylat is that the stage should be equal, or as close to equal as one can get, with no advantage from the stage being given to the character.

However, on Lylat, characters that don't auto-cancel are given an advantage over those that do, moreso than just the character advantage.

I'm starting to think Lylat is less of a problem, not because of any of my opponents arguments (or lack thereof), but moreso the realization that Cpt. Falcon players had to deal with FoD all the time, and were constantly using their ban on that. Maybe Lylat is the new FoD, except instead of being bad for one character, its bad for multiple ones.

I still think Lylat is too disruptive, but that's more of a personal acknowledgment that I'm not going to push.

YI is definately a much more solid stage, even if the support ghosts are RANDOM (>= <).

Sliq, have you seen darkrain's rules?

It isn't technically "Darkrain's," as striking existed way before then, but striking is a pretty good alternative. The only problem is is that it can come up a second time on random, and you can't do **** about it, and people can counter-pick the stage you struck.

My basic point is that Lylat benefits characters that can ignore auto-canceling, and hinders those who require it. That is my basic argument, and why I think it is less than neutral.

It is basically the same argument as why Rainbow Cruise shouldn't be on random; it gives inherent benefits to certain characters and restricts others, if not counters them (Ice Climbers).

Only time will tell if Lylat is really that bad, but I'm not going to be a fan of being a guinea pig for it.