Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Linkshot]

That's a stage-technique, though.

Skyworld was "proven banned" at OBscene 1.0. Apparently whorenado is the ultimate god of that stage.

 

[popsofctown]

How can Castle Siege be a starter? It's a walk off during phase 2 and during the intermediate phases. Combat in the loading phases can keep characters off center, and then a stock can end up decided based how well each character can recover. The typical argument about phase 2 having platforms is a sham because A) characters standing on platforms in brawl generally have the disadvantage. There's so many things you can do to a person on a dropthrough platform (D3 can back air a player off the side of the platform to disable shield, or uptilt underneath and disable shield that way, or etc.), and B) the loading phases are total walkoffs, and you don't even half to chaingrab or otherwise move the character completely off stage because the next phases have abyss at the edges.

 

[Linkshot]

Actually, the platforms work very well to avoid the chaingrabs. You can bait an attack, then just jump.

At low percents, the safest thing to do against D3 is try to footstool him. Stay in the air, go above him, and if you land the footstool, you can stay in the air until the stage changes (or at least for enough time for the chaingrab to fail)

 

[infomon]

Skyworld was "proven banned" at OBscene 1.0. Apparently whorenado is the ultimate god of that stage.

Vids or it didn't happen.

 

[Linkshot]

I know. I wanted to see it, too

 

[Waffle Can]

Skyworld has circle-camping, and the stage punishes you for recovering.

Gimping most characters is as easy as spamming attacks at the stage.

Considering "circle-camping", there are several other CP (or CP/Banned) stages that allow for that easily... Luigi's Mansion (solid, impassable platforms as well as the projectile blocking pillars) and Rainbow Cruise (Especially during the far left transition towards as well as along the top with the many platforms) just to name a few.

As for punishing recovery, for *most* characters, you can sweetspot the recovery and do little to no damage to the platforms. As a player, you just need to judge correct distances and know your characters recovery boundaries. (The one character I can think of that would have a hard time sweetspotting their recovery would be Ike, with a possibility for bowser.)

As for gimping by "just spamming attacks" I'm a bit confused... As in repeatedly spamming the same move over and over? That also can be done an several other legal stages...

 

[infomon]

I know. I wanted to see it, too

So it didn't happen, then.

 

[Linkshot]

Maybe we should get some raw data going on Skyworld. Like, which recovery moves are forced to deal damage to the ledge before snapping on, since that seems to be the main argument for a ban.

 

[infomon]

Why does that even matter?

 

[deepseadiva]

Maybe we should get some raw data going on Skyworld. Like, which recovery moves are forced to deal damage to the ledge before snapping on, since that seems to be the main argument for a ban.

If that's the main argument, pffft, bring Skyworld back. That's a legitimate advantage for certain recoveries, which makes Skyworld perfect as a CP.

I'm for banning it though - circle camping seems evident, and cloud spiking turns into the official stage strategy.

 

[bobson]

I don't know if circle camping can be called a legitimate reason when you can just break the platforms and suddenly it doesn't work anymore.

 

[Linkshot]

To avoid cloud spiking, stay on the ground. And bobson said my first point. There's hardly any room to circle camp here.

Another profit to the stage: You can restore your moves at any time.

 

[deepseadiva]

Well, the circling is pretty weak overall I suppose, my main reason I'd ban it is still the cloud spiking. I like Skyworld a lot actually and play there often in friendlies, problem is, strategy always reverts back to bouncing people off the ceiling to their death.

I'd really like to see what swayed the SBR to complete bannage though.

 

[Linkshot]

I don't see why teching the ceiling can't be mastered, though. Overall, there were many much harder techniques in Melee.

 

[deepseadiva]

Of course, but I also don't agree a missed tech should be punished that severely - even disregarding how easy it is to abuse in the first place.

 

[Linkshot]

Very true...but couldn't you theoretically run away and break the ceiling, or at least move the fight on top of it?

 

[Kamikaze*]

Apparently whorenado is the ultimate god of that stage.

Yeah, so lets ban it it and move on.

While were at it we should list reason why japes should be permabant.

 

[bobson]

Some stuff on Skyworld:

Each of the platforms take about 40% of damage (or 1½ Mario dsmashes :3) before breaking and respawn ~12 seconds (722 frames from destroyed to active as a platform/ledge again) afterward. Attacks that hit on both sides at one time like G&W's or Fox's dsmash only count once when used on a single platform.

The scrolly platform underneath the main arena sticks around for about 16½ seconds (1000 frames) and always comes from the left. It's beyond the blastzones for about half a second during each period. It respawns somewhere between 4 and 6 seconds each time, but I haven't figured out any reason for the variance.

You can only be spiked through the clouds if you're in the air, and the majority of the time it only happens if you miss a tech on the roof above the lower section. Semi-spikes like Kirby's dair will also knock you through the floor if the attack ends before you land.

Mr. Game & Watch's dthrow should not be a concern unless your character has a bad recovery. It can be called a semi-semi-spike at best and will only kill Jigglypuff around 500%; it's by no means an instant-death move. The worst you'll get from this is bad positioning.

In general, the bottom platform is safe to fight on so long as the roof platforms above it are destroyed. Tether recoveries still have a chance here, because in the time they're launched to the time they come back, their opponent has to destroy both of the ledges on either side, and stale moves often prevents this. Plus, the scrolly platform can save them.
Always recover to the side if spiked through the clouds unless the scrolly platform is under you or you're keeping count on the seconds since the platforms were destroyed. Using your up-B only to be stopped by the platforms that just respawned is really annoying, and it happens with infuriating frequency.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This video shows a clever new abuse on Luigi's Mansion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsB2d6Slac

This same sort of thing should work on Skyworld even more effectively. I'm increasingly doubtful that Skyworld is actually fair, and my normally rock solid faith in Luigi's Mansion is just a tiny bit shaken (I'd really like to trade Luigi's Mansion for something like Yoshi's Island [Melee]; I think everyone would be happier in the end).

 

[Linkshot]

...this puts a new spin on "characters survive to ridiculous percents." Right then. Banning Mansion on my Wii XD

 

[Waffle Can]

This same sort of thing should work on Skyworld even more effectively. I'm increasingly doubtful that Skyworld is actually fair, and my normally rock solid faith in Luigi's Mansion is just a tiny bit shaken (I'd really like to trade Luigi's Mansion for something like Yoshi's Island [Melee]; I think everyone would be happier in the end).

Well, this may be a bother to your rock solid faith for Luigi's Mansion (Or skyworld as I guess you could say in my case.), but it doesn't bother me nearly in the slightest. At least according to the video you posted, there is a fair amount of time that you could run over (using dk for an example as he was the one who was pictured.) and punish his lag on his up b recovery with a back air or tilt that WILL finish him off.

I think it'd be safe to say the majority of characters could take advantage of the couple seconds of openness outside of the mansion to finish the ko.


But yeah, as mentioned by someone previously (Sorry! forget who ) I would also like to know what persuaded a unanimous ban for the stage, if possible :D

 

[Linkshot]

Actually, G&W falls so low that if you try to punish him, you'll die.

What you could do in that time, instead, is wail on the house.

 

[Waffle Can]

^^^ True, if you're using characters like DK whose recovery is more horizontal than vertical. In my example it was DK in question, but there are many possibilities with other characters.

But housebreaking is good too

 

[Dai-A]

Dont mean to sound dumb but why is Mario circuit banned :/

 

[Linkshot]

Chaingrab to death by Dedede. The cars don't stop it enough, and sometimes actually promote it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I checked the characters who can be chaingrabbed up the slope on Distant Planet on Yoshi's Island (Melee) by King Dedede. Here are the results.


Grabbed:

Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, Lucario

Not Grabbed:

Mario, Peach, Bowser, Toon Link, Samus, R.O.B., King Dedede, Ivysaur, Charizard, Snake, Sonic

Also, Yoshi can't chaingrab Donkey Kong up that slope which means the only character Yoshi gets a regrab on is straight up Wario (who is caught in an infinite at that point on every stage).

Falco can chaingrab Snake up that slope I'm pretty sure and probably some others, but I don't know how big of a deal Falco's chaingrab is since it's percentage dependent and whatnot. The timing on it also probably varies with the damage the opponent has which makes it a real pain to test. Either way, I doubt it's particularly broken given how it's damage dependent.

If this stage is broken in general, I don't think chaingrabs are the reason.

 

[Kain6th]

If anyone wants to discuss Port Town come to this thread. I'm still curious about it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231347

 

[Linkshot]

Do we need a new thread for Port Town..? It's not a hard ban on the official stage list.

 

[fkacyan]

Do we need a new thread for Port Town..? It's not a hard ban on the official stage list.

0-12-23 is for all intents and purposes a ban. That's one banned vote away from 2/3 majority.

 

[infomon]

This video shows a clever new abuse on Luigi's Mansion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFsB2d6Slac

This same sort of thing should work on Skyworld even more effectively. I'm increasingly doubtful that Skyworld is actually fair, and my normally rock solid faith in Luigi's Mansion is just a tiny bit shaken (I'd really like to trade Luigi's Mansion for something like Yoshi's Island [Melee]; I think everyone would be happier in the end).

Wait wait wait. That video's convincing anyone of anything???

I'll restrict myself only to the Luigi's Mansion part, rather than the questionable parts of the rest of the video. (It's a decent vid btw, I don't mean to attack it or nuthin, just ... don't take any of it as fact without moar discussion.) So: bouncing off the ceiling on Luigi's mansion = can use a Jump or Special early to momentum-cancel.

First off, it's not new, and it's not unique to Luigi's Mansion. If you want I can pull out vids of Sonics doing this on Yoshi's Island: Brawl and I'm sure I've seen it on FD as well. Obviously it's easy with ceilings, but just bouncing off the ground can break you out of hitstun so you can instantly use a Jump or Special to momentum-cancel ftw. This benefits most characters (all but ROB? Some chars less than others of course).

Unless I'm mistaken, there are zero tournament vids where this has been "game-breaking", ie. someone couldn't die because they were momentum-cancelling every hit. Please demonstrate real vids where this tech is even particularly relevant to the metagame of these stages with ceilings / walls / platforms (lol). Then we can see whether or not it so imbalanced that it makes the stage unfit for competition. I'm very skeptical that you can do this.

Then we'll see if the stage's own properties (ie. destroying the ceilings) doesn't balance the strat for us. And we can see if this "new tactic" might actually invalidate some of the previous reasoning for why Luigi's Mansion should be banned; for example, if MK can't kill anyone while you're fighting in the mansion, then I'm not sure his tornado is really game-breaking on the stage. It will become a fight for stage-control; who owns the mansion transformations. Sounds pretty legit to me.

 

[fkacyan]

Wait wait wait. That video's convincing anyone of anything???

I'll restrict myself only to the Luigi's Mansion part, rather than the questionable parts of the rest of the video. (It's a decent vid btw, I don't mean to attack it or nuthin, just ... don't take any of it as fact without moar discussion.) So: bouncing off the ceiling on Luigi's mansion = can use a Jump or Special early to momentum-cancel.

First off, it's not new, and it's not unique to Luigi's Mansion. If you want I can pull out vids of Sonics doing this on Yoshi's Island: Brawl and I'm sure I've seen it on FD as well. Obviously it's easy with ceilings, but just bouncing off the ground can break you out of hitstun so you can instantly use a Jump or Special to momentum-cancel ftw. This benefits most characters (all but ROB? Some chars less than others of course).

Unless I'm mistaken, there are zero tournament vids where this has been "game-breaking", ie. someone couldn't die because they were momentum-cancelling every hit. Please demonstrate real vids where this tech is even particularly relevant to the metagame of these stages with ceilings / walls / platforms (lol). Then we can see whether or not it so imbalanced that it makes the stage unfit for competition. I'm very skeptical that you can do this.

Then we'll see if the stage's own properties (ie. destroying the ceilings) doesn't balance the strat for us. And we can see if this "new tactic" might actually invalidate some of the previous reasoning for why Luigi's Mansion should be banned; for example, if MK can't kill anyone while you're fighting in the mansion, then I'm not sure his tornado is really game-breaking on the stage. It will become a fight for stage-control; who owns the mansion transformations. Sounds pretty legit to me.

Not all characters can break out of hitstun that quickly; nor is it so easy everywhere else.

That particular aspect is ONE reason to ban LM, not the sole basis.

 

[arsenic41]

Not all characters can break out of hitstun that quickly; nor is it so easy everywhere else.

That particular aspect is ONE reason to ban LM, not the sole basis.

I don't think LM deserves to be hard ban worthy. There are no walls, circle camping is not a winning strategy, and there are no walk-offs. The only reason why LM would be banned is because of MK tornado. However, Ally has proven this strategy to not be as broken as it seems by beating MK's in their mansion multiple times.

 

[Dai-A]

Why Is Skyworld Banned?

 

[Linkshot]

TO's discretion. Officially (SBR), there's no solid unbeatable reason to ban it, but the vote outweighed it and placed it in Banned.

EDIT: Looking at wrong thread XDD Anyway, yeah. It was just voted as unwanted by the SBR.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't think LM deserves to be hard ban worthy. There are no walls, circle camping is not a winning strategy, and there are no walk-offs. The only reason why LM would be banned is because of MK tornado. However, Ally has proven this strategy to not be as broken as it seems by beating MK's in their mansion multiple times.

Circle camping that stage is ridiculously easy.

Circle camp. They break the mansion? Plank for 30 seconds. Rinse, repeat.

And if a Snake is winning vs MK on that stage, MK has done something wrong.

 

[bobson]

Circle camp. They break the mansion? Plank for 30 seconds. Rinse, repeat.

Why not cut out the middle man and just plank the whole game?

Oh, wait, planking is beatable. Whoops.

 

[fkacyan]

Why not cut out the middle man and just plank the whole game?

Oh, wait, planking is beatable. Whoops.

Tomorrow, you and me are playing on LM.

Nothing beats firsthand experience of being gayed by somebody who's not even trying.

 

[infomon]

Nothing beats firsthand experience of being gayed by somebody who's not even trying.

Yeah that's nintendo wifi for ya

sakurai gayed us all and wasn't even trying

 

[fkacyan]

Yeah that's nintendo wifi for ya

sakurai gayed us all and wasn't even trying

Me and AvaricePanda have played near-lagless matches on all of the stages we've tested so far.

 

[infomon]

*shrug* that's good I guess

but when you're talking about a tactic that leaves small-frame advantages/disadvantages on either side..... even subtle lag matters for deciding if something is broken or totally punishable.