Official Stage Legality Discussion

[bobson]

The pressure exists in that the second you take a laggy attack, rechucked peanut, etc to hit him for camping he has the banana in his hand to force you into a slip combo.

The majority of the cast has at least one aerial they can use to destroy peanuts at that distance without being punished.

anyone?

Reason I ask is cause you all ran sunshade off with your usual circular logic and it's a darn shame cause he'd almost cracked you *******s.

You have to hit a specific spot under the rudder; too far right and you'll float back up, and too far left and you'll get killed. I find it easiest to do with Marth's counter.

It takes a real son of a ***** of a point to crack us.

 

[Llumys]

Personally, I think a lot more stages should be legal. Striking with two or three bans would lead to a lot more possibilities while still remaining fair.

 

[fkacyan]

Personally, I think a lot more stages should be legal. Striking with two or three bans would lead to a lot more possibilities while still remaining fair.

Were I at a desk, my head would be making contact.

 

[sunshade]

Personally, I think a lot more stages should be legal. Striking with two or three bans would lead to a lot more possibilities while still remaining fair.

If we want to determine the absolute fairest stage while maximizing player options at the same time then preforming stage striking using every single legal stage would be the optimal choice. Lets say our stage list for striking is the following list. *note this stage list has a shameless removal of Pirate ship it also has the removal of stages Thio has voiced out against so it is not biased towards my own opinion*

Total stages 13 six bans to each player

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pokémon Stadium 2

By stage striking from the entire list it will allow factors such as player stage preference and personal play style to be taken into account. If someone particularly hates playing on a certain stage the player can choose to not play on the stage not because the stage is good or bad for his character or is more "fair" than other stages but because the person simply does not play well on the stage. The clearly non-neutral stages will be removed quickly and then it allows players in a efficient and fair way to pick a stage the both enjoy and play well on. I as an example play very poorly on Final Destination despite my best character being King Dedede so I would choose to ban Final Destination over say Frigate Orpheon simply because I enjoy and play very well on Frigate. My opponent and I however would have removed our worst stages before we even got to the point where we would have to choose between two stages based on preference more so then balance resulting in the last stage standing to be the (me and my opponents not a universal) fairest stage.

Were I at a desk, my head would be making contact.

This type of comment is rude to the person directed at and causes you to be highly discredited. Please stop making them, I have read every single post in this entire thread and every time you or anyone else posts like this it makes me doubt your or their maturity and opinions.

 

[Hyesz]

Green Greens Legal Plz.

/thread

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*note this stage list has a shameless removal of Pirate ship

You fail.

 

[fkacyan]

This type of comment is rude to the person directed at and causes you to be highly discredited. Please stop making them, I have read every single post in this entire thread and every time you or anyone else posts like this it makes me doubt your or their maturity and opinions.

Posts that simply make assertions without even attempting to back it up or contain absolutely no substance will be infracted as spam.

I like not reading the first post too! See all my comments on the last two pages about people ignoring this post. Hyesz is equally guilty.

As for my tone, I don't give respect to those who don't earn it, and not going by the thread guidelines is a sure way for me to give you none at all.

 

[sunshade]

As for my tone, I don't give respect to those who don't earn it, and not going by the thread guidelines is a sure way for me to give you none at all.

I am not asking that you respect others I am however telling you that if you want to convince others of your opinion being correct then lashing out against others who do not understand as opposed to helping them wont win you any allies but will earn you a few foes.

If someone makes an ignorant post tell them why they are wrong without being rude and you will convince the people much more important than just those posting in this thread. (those reading it).

 

[fkacyan]

If someone makes an ignorant post tell them why they are wrong without being rude and you will convince the people much more important than just those posting in this thread. (those reading it).

Two things:

1) Substance over tone. My message shouldn't be ignored because people don't like how I say something.
2) When you break a rule that is stated in the first post I owe you nothing.

 

[bobson]

I am not asking that you respect others I am however telling you that if you want to convince others of your opinion being correct then lashing out against others who do not understand as opposed to helping them wont win you any allies but will earn you a few foes.

Most people here are not trying to convince others of their opinion being correct. If they were honestly trying to, you'd see much more tact and respect; we really just want to regurgitate our own opinions up on the board and then argue with anyone who has different ones until the other person gets tired of going in circles and we "win."

 

[sunshade]

Two things:

1) Substance over tone. My message shouldn't be ignored because people don't like how I say something.
2) When you break a rule that is stated in the first post I owe you nothing.

1. You are right that your opinion shouldn't be ignored based on how you say it, however it will be.
2. I agree however I feel that everyone deserves some respect regardless of how silly their action is and if you feel other wise that is your choice which I have no say in.

Most people here are not trying to convince others of their opinion being correct. If they were honestly trying to, you'd see much more tact and respect; we really just want to regurgitate our own opinions up on the board and then argue with anyone who has different ones until the other person gets tired of going in circles and we "win."

I attempt to make my posts convincing to the anonymous reader because I know there are many people out there who don't enjoy posting but want to be responded to. I have no real sway on the highest level players in the smashboard community I however can convince people to change their opinions just a bit which is all I need for my post to be worth the effort of typing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dude, Thio. I'm going to say this in the lightest way possible:

If you sound so arrogant I can't decide if you or Inui are worse, nobody is going to take you seriously, because nobody takes Inui seriously. Tone effects substance way too much to be ignored. In fact, it might be more important if you are truly attempting to chance someone's mind/show them a point. If you have a guy who is posting BS, but is posting in a very likable/polite way, and then you have a guy posting the truth while looking down on everyone who is going to be believed more?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

"Battlefield is a better projectile camping stage than Final Destination" is false. Here's the tactic that defeats it. Just stand on the platform. If they are tall, you can very likely hit them with something (Mr. Game & Watch is too pro at it with his dair; I'm sure others have their own tricks). If they are short, they probably can't very easily hit you without jumping which in that position is going to totally wreck any attempt they were making at camping. Well, Meta Knight can with utilt, but he doesn't have a projectile so that works out really beautifully. In any case, their options basically are three.

1) Jump/Attack. You can counter both of these as you could counter any direct attack. The battle has ceased to be one of projectile camping at this point.

2) Move away. You can drop through the platform and give chase. If they outpredict you and get away, use the platforms to reset the position.

3) Do nothing and wait. Well, two can play at that game, and you can position yourself in optimal position and do feints and such (maybe even just drop through and attack from above without all that, depending on matchup). This is not a fundamentally unsound position for you like some people think; you're in control of the situation as long as they refuse to take initiative.

On Final Destination, you have to actually navigate the projectiles and can't position yourself on a different horizontal line from them. The lack of vertical play makes it way too easy to define the game around grounded play which is where the projectiles are strong. The Yoshi's example is another case; my solution to that position if I don't have a projectile effective in that situation (and Mr. Game & Watch does not) is to simply stand on the platform and position my approach from there. What is Diddy Kong going to do? He could throw bananas up which are easily countered and I can exploit to run him out of bananas, he could jump which puts him in his weakest area and my strongest, he could maybe try utilt or usmash if the platform dips right but is going to be so predictable that he'll be eating something from me when I see it coming a mile away, or he could just stay down there and play footsies with me which adds a whole new level of parity as suddenly I'm not being pressured very substantially as I vie for position. Really the main characters I see exploiting the positional strength of being under platforms are ones with the best ability to hit the platform from below. Those would be Meta Knight (utilt), Marth (take your pick), Ike (utilt/usmash), or to a smaller extent Mr. Game & Watch (Fire). None of them have competent projectile games. The closest characters to utilizing projectile spam in conjunction with platforms effectively are probably Link and Toon Link, but I'm not really sold on something like Battlefield being better for them than Final Destination even with that factor.

Anyway, I sense a moderator situation brewing here. Guys, let's be really honest here. A lot of people have been arguing about this for a very long time. Thio, Meno, bobson, Linkshot, and I are definitely all in that group. We all have pretty strong opinions on this. Someone like sunshade is more recent, but he also very obviously has very strong opinions. Some of these are not in agreement. It's because, philosophically, we have different ideas about the basis for stage rules in the first place. Our game experiences don't exactly agree either. I can tell you, based on countless serious competitive matches on it, that I am absolutely convinced Norfair is a perfectly fair stage and should completely obviously be legal at every tournament. I can say I have seen people try every "broken" tactic on it, and I have seen those tactics brought down to earth. I have seen some radical play there that works, and I have seen the evidence that it's not degenerate and instead is something positive. I am going to take a wild guess that some people here don't share my enthusiasm for Norfair. I am going to guess they live hundreds of miles away from me, and we are probably never going to be able to play to allow our metagames to clash and see the result. Even if they did meet, we might disagree on the virtue of the play there.

The point is that I hope everyone is honest enough with themselves to know that none of the major posters around here are going to convince each other of anything save maybe a minor point every once in a while. I tried several times to have us work to produce something that was actually substance here instead of an ever-flowing ever-shifting argument; no one was interested. I don't think it's totally worthless to post; most people don't have these same strong opinions we do, and silent masses are far more likely to be swayed by strong arguments between strong opinioned people. However, understanding that you are not actually going to move the mind of the person you are directly arguing against most likely, there's no reason to get heated over the argument. Everyone is really needing to just lighten up. I think there's value in this topic, and I think we all do both our own causes and the smash community the best service if we all keep cool heads and put politeness and civility first.

I really don't like infracting people. If I can tell someone something to modify bad behavior and it works, I see it as the best outcome. If once in a while, someone new (as in new to posting around here) posts something that is a little sketchy but still kinda okay, I'm inclined to let it slide with the hope that they are trying to find their niche in making positive posting and may be more successful with future posts if not discouraged by an immediate heavy hand. Just point out how weakly supported what they are saying is or how easily refuted it is as to be inconsequential and move on (you can do this in a nice way, and it is better if you do). Every once in a while, things get kinda bad in this topic. It's an issue people are passionate about; I understand. However, we're crossing some lines of civility right about now so let's turn this the other direction. If we do that, it works out far better than the other possibility where I start infracting people I really don't want to infract to enforce good behavior.

I am going to say that polite posts are also more convincing to anonymous people. Seriously, no matter your intentions, if people think you seem like a bully or don't seem nice, they won't care even a little about what you have to say. I'm not going to name names, but some of the people with the worst reputations in the smash community ended up on the wrong side of that...

 

[sunshade]

Thank you for redirecting the thread back in the right direction Amazing Ampharos and I apologize because I was among those who caused the thread to begin to move off topic. Returning to discussion of stages I would like to return to Pirate Ship because I feel that the stage still needs to be discussed.

The primary flaw with Pirate Ship is the rudder of the ship which allows perfectly unstoppable stall if abused. The response to this was that a moderator can recognize this type of stall due to it being supposedly very black and white.

Circle stalling is ambiguous by its very nature. There's no clear point between "obviously circle stalling" and "just running away" that a TO can look at to determine whether it's DQ-worthy or not, especially considering how defensive Brawl is. Rudder stalling is not. At the very worst, a TO can simply watch the match, and your opponent cannot rudder stall anymore.

I however feel that the rudder is not as easy to write of as saying its going to be stopped by a tournament organizer. If a player chooses to abuse the rudder not to its full potential but for 2-3 second intervals where the player camps the water waits and punishes the approach of his opponent then dives down catches the rudder and pauses just for a few moments to wait for a moment to pop up then repeats the process. This is very easily in the same gray area as circle camping because it has opportunity for punishment however is still majorly effective.

This type of water camping in addition to being highly effective is also completely foreign to every other stage in the entire game causing it to be a tactic which if not know about beforehand will completely decimate the opponent. Now this may seem to be the definition of a counterpick however a stage can favor a character or tactic too much and be banned for it despite the tactic being potentially overcome-able. The walk offs on Bridge of Elden are prime examples of this because although it is very possible for you to avoid a King Dedede grab and win the match by simply not getting grabbed it is still an absurdly dominate factor that becomes the most logical and practical tactic. Pirate Ships water while not of the same degeneracy as walk-offs does cause many players to be forced into a situation which requires uncommon knowledge and specific characters to succeed or else face near guaranteed defeat.

 

[Overswarm]

Circle stalling is ambiguous by its very nature. There's no clear point between "obviously circle stalling" and "just running away" that a TO can look at to determine whether it's DQ-worthy or not, especially considering how defensive Brawl is. Rudder stalling is not. At the very worst, a TO can simply watch the match, and your opponent cannot rudder stall anymore.

Can you actually hit the character? If so, is it only because you are character X or Y? If the answer is no, (or yes/yes), it's probably a bad thing.

Is it DIFFICULT to hit your opponent, but possible? If so, has the opposing player won using this "running" strategy by winning via timeout multiple times? Has he done this against people better than him?

If this is the case, they need to be looked at closely. Otherwise, no johns.

 

[bobson]

I however feel that the rudder is not as easy to write of as saying its going to be stopped by a tournament organizer. If a player chooses to abuse the rudder not to its full potential but for 2-3 second intervals where the player camps the water waits and punishes the approach of his opponent then dives down catches the rudder and pauses just for a few moments to wait for a moment to pop up then repeats the process. This is very easily in the same gray area as circle camping because it has opportunity for punishment however is still majorly effective.

What you are suggesting would be handled exactly in the same manner that someone using Metaknight's IDC randomly throughout the match would be handled; if reported, he would be DQed for using the technique at all.

Rudder stalling draws a direct parallel to Metaknight's IDC: a clear-cut stalling technique that can be used to avoid contact indefinitely without any chance of punishment unless the player using it makes a mistake. I think it should be handled in the same manner; rather than banning every stage except Rainbow Cruise and Frigate Orpheon where it can't be used to stall out the entire match, it makes much more sense to simply ban the technique.

The IDC is proof that such a ban is possible without large abuse, and I see no reason to take away a perfectly good stage when we don't need to.

Can you actually hit the character? If so, is it only because you are character X or Y? If the answer is no, (or yes/yes), it's probably a bad thing.

It's completely impossible to hit a character who's rudder stalling unless you have a controllable projectile like PK Thunder.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I however feel that the rudder is not as easy to write of as saying its going to be stopped by a tournament organizer. If a player chooses to abuse the rudder not to its full potential but for 2-3 second intervals where the player camps the water waits and punishes the approach of his opponent then dives down catches the rudder and pauses just for a few moments to wait for a moment to pop up then repeats the process. This is very easily in the same gray area as circle camping because it has opportunity for punishment however is still majorly effective.

Spike them as they come up. There is a small period of time where they can't do anything when just surfacing out of the water. Anyone with a spiking Dair can do this easily. Or hit them upwards with a uair/any faster aerial.

Or call the TO to watch the match. It would be easy to spot the bubble not moving upwards for a few moments.

 

[Sucumbio]

w00t AA's back.

Just to help everyone out in all this, here's a quick list of topics in the last 50 pages or so and the current ... opinion based on the majority of ideas on each:

Big Blue: should remain Banned
Final Destination: Move to CP
Onett: Move to CP/Banned
Rumble Falls: Move to CP/Banned
Green Hill Zone: Move to CP/Banned -maybe- there wasn't any clear evidence on the side-camp being broken
Corneria: Is the right-side wall broken?
Pirate Ship: Move to Banned (CURRENT TOPIC)
Sonic: Can only win by camping/stalling (LOL, LS I had to put this in here you mention this a lot)

 

[fkacyan]

@ AA:

"Battlefield is a better projectile camping stage than Final Destination" is false. Here's the tactic that defeats it. Just stand on the platform.... SNIP... better for them than Final Destination even with that factor.

The issue with this is that you are assuming at a fundamental level that, for whatever reason, you have the option to not approach. If Falco has his percent advantage there is nothing to stop him from shotting lasers the rest of the match - And I have seen Falcos time people out with the other person at two stocks doing this. When you are forced to approach the camper, you have to drop down, and almost always coming at him from above gives him more than enough time to reposition to the other side, be it via Phantasm, a series of glide tosses, or a boost smash. Regardless of our stance on this, it's mostly a moot point; The only region that would ever opt for a 3-stage starter list is No. Atlantic, so I doubt we have to argue about which stages we would remove from a starter list and which stages we would potentially add.

@ Bobson:

The IDC is proof that such a ban is possible without large abuse, and I see no reason to take away a perfectly good stage when we don't need to.

Now that I have a way to record it happening, I should be able to get you footage of Toon Link and/or Game and Watch abusing the stage without rudder stalling to a degree that those two characters are really the only viable ones to use on the stage. This, of course, depends who is in attendance at Inui's event on the 14th.

 

[Linkshot]

It's completely impossible to hit a character who's rudder stalling unless you have a controllable projectile like PK Thunder.

List of characters that can strike that position. Requires testing. (??? means water might stop them)

Mario (Fireball)
Peach (throw an item)
Bowser (Fire Breath)
Diddy Kong (throw a Banana Peel or Peanut)
Wario (throw a Tire, or his Bike from the King of Red Lions)
Link (returning Boomerang, throw a Bomb)
Zelda (Din's Fire)
Sheik (Needles)
??? Ganondorf (Wizard Kick) ???
Toon Link (returning Boomerang, throw a Bomb)
Zero Suit Samus (throw a Suit Piece, ??? dAir ???)
Pit (Palutena's Bow)
Ice Climbers (Ice Block, ??? dAir ???)
ROB (Laser, Gyromite, throw Gyromite)
??? Meta Knight (Dimensional Cape) ???
King Dedede (Gordo Toss)
??? Captain Falcon (Falcon Kick) ???
Lucas (PK Thunder)
Ness (PK Fire, PK Thunder)
??? Mr. Game & Watch (dAir) ???
Snake (Nikita, Grenade)
??? Sonic (dAir) ???

Hmmm. Perhaps it's not a bannable tactic after all!

As for standard Water Camping, you can feint for G&W to come back up, then strike him as he hits the water with this list of characters.

Everybody

If Falco has his percent advantage there is nothing to stop him from shotting lasers the rest of the match

I'm quite sure Falco can't shoot lasers both ways, so if you stand directly above him, you wait until you find an opening, and then strike his blind side.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm lost on the Pirate Ship discussion.

I'm even more embarrassed that some of this should be common knowledge, but:

What's a rudder? Why is stalling under it a questionable tactic?

How is one suppose to get under the rock(s) if it's/they're hollow? What happens after a while if one is to hang there?

 

[Linkshot]

I've looked underneath the ship and I saw the part that has no hitbox (it uses the piece that is the back of the boat)

Rudder is the back underside of the boat (I think).

Stalling under it is questionable because a select few characters can't stop them, and you can't drown unless you're flailing at the surface.

Hollow means empty. If you look underneath the rock, you'll see nothing. Use a momentum-shifting move, and swim underneath the rock. You'll be inside of it and able to attack through the floor of it.

Ottawa knows that I'm the master (see: exploiter) of Pirate Ship ^^

 

[fkacyan]

@ LS:

As for standard Water Camping, you can feint for G&W to come back up, then strike him as he hits the water with this list of characters.

The character never has to move past the safe zone of under the little platform - he can upb to that and then use edge-poke moves, or jump up and throw sausages. Toon Link can shoot his bow, boomerangs, and bombs without ever being hittable, and has both high priority lingering hitboxes (uair) and fast downward movement (dair). Trust me, it's not as easy to beat as you think.

I'm quite sure Falco can't shoot lasers both ways, so if you stand directly above him, you wait until you find an opening, and then strike his blind side.

As you move above him he phantasms to the other side of the stage. Also, even if he's dumb and doesn't phantasm, his uptilt beats quite a lot of dairs; down-facing attacks tend to have pitiful priority.

 

[Linkshot]

The character never has to move past the safe zone of under the little platform - he can upb to that and then use edge-poke moves, or jump up and throw sausages.

Is there a picture of this safe zone? I'd like to see if fastfalling airdodge is enough to breach it.

I'd also love to try this against Ampharos, since he's a G&W main.

Also, which characters do you think have the most trouble? I can list moves that are most likely to break through.

As you move above him he phantasms to the other side of the stage.

That's extremely predictable, allowing you to feint him. You jump to the platform, he phantasms, but then you double [jump] back and throw an attack.

But since this is about FD VS BF, take into account that FD is much longer than BF, which means Falco doesn't have as much free space. You could jump on the platform and crash down in the middle. Now you're practically in his face, no matter what he does.
On Final Destination, you have to suck it up and do your best to plow through his wide area of control.

 

[XvCvX]

I think that Yoshi's Island should be at best a counter pick!!!! That stage is not normal enough, it saves people. It messes up lots of projectile throwing.

 

[Hyesz]

Pirate Ship should be banned. I thought this before I knew of all these camping tricks.

 

[Linkshot]

Hyesz, x...whatever you are.

Both of you, please post evidence supporting these claims.

Remember that saving and projectile blocking is both bad and good. For every negative point you have, somebody could bring up a completely valid point on the same topic.

Spoiler

P.S.: Don't feed the trolls.

 

[cemo]

Rudder stalling is pretty obvious.
What about going under the rock? I suppose that wouldn't be allowed, either.

 

[Hyesz]

I forgot that my opinion would sway the point of this topic and get a stage banned despite the fact I was just stating my opinion based on what other people have said thus requiring no need to further my point. I'm sorry, sir. I'll P.E.E it out next time for you.

(Point, Explanation, Ending, learned it in Modern Studies).

 

[Linkshot]

Phen, read my post on the previous page. I explained what beat rudder stalling.

The rock is around for about 20 seconds. If you can get past your opponent and under it, good job, but he doesn't have to fight you.

 

[bobson]

Mario (Fireball)
Peach (throw an item)
Bowser (Fire Breath)
Diddy Kong (throw a Banana Peel or Peanut)
Wario (throw a Tire, or his Bike from the King of Red Lions)
Link (returning Boomerang, throw a Bomb)
Zelda (Din's Fire)
Sheik (Needles)
??? Ganondorf (Wizard Kick) ???
Toon Link (returning Boomerang, throw a Bomb)
Zero Suit Samus (throw a Suit Piece, ??? dAir ???)
Pit (Palutena's Bow)
Ice Climbers (Ice Block, ??? dAir ???)
ROB (Laser, Gyromite, throw Gyromite)
??? Meta Knight (Dimensional Cape) ???
King Dedede (Gordo Toss)
??? Captain Falcon (Falcon Kick) ???
Lucas (PK Thunder)
Ness (PK Fire, PK Thunder)
??? Mr. Game & Watch (dAir) ???
Snake (Nikita, Grenade)
??? Sonic (dAir) ???

A handful of these don't work, like Bowser's fire or Dedede's Gordos, but most of them do seem to work... which makes this a lot more annoying to deal with. This means rudder stalling will make the stage totally ******** for a bunch of random matchups, but the tactic itself isn't necessarily overcentralizing enough to ban. Also, if you do land a projectile while they're under there, it'll usually knock them slightly to the left for an instant kill, which is hilarious.

**** it, Pirate Ship, you are not making it easy to defend you.

 

[sunshade]

A handful of these don't work, like Bowser's fire or Dedede's Gordos, but most of them do seem to work... which makes this a lot more annoying to deal with. This means rudder stalling will make the stage totally ******** for a bunch of random matchups, but the tactic itself isn't necessarily overcentralizing enough to ban. Also, if you do land a projectile while they're under there, it'll usually knock them slightly to the left for an instant kill, which is hilarious.

I will also mention that every single character that can dive down and rudder stall is capable of stopping it by swimming into the other person making it even more silly and degenerate then attempting to hit with a projectile. I had a 1$ MM with a friend with both of us playing Ganondorf on Pirate Ship and once one of us got the lead we fled to the rudder then proceed to play underwater footsies. It was funny but the thought that a significant sum of money may be based on this made me sad.

I just tested who can and who cannot stop rudder stall and it turns out that only 8 characters cannot.











All other characters can stop rudder stall which means you may enter a tournament and prey on the ignorance of others by getting a lead and stalling under the rudder for 8 mins and be perfectly safe from being DQ'd due to your foe being legitimately able to stop it.

This also means that Pirate Ship meets the standard for banning by the OS test

Can you actually hit the character? If so, is it only because you are character X or Y? If the answer is no, (or yes/yes), it's probably a bad thing.

Is it DIFFICULT to hit your opponent, but possible? If so, has the opposing player won using this "running" strategy by winning via timeout multiple times? Has he done this against people better than him?

If this is the case, they need to be looked at closely. Otherwise, no johns.

 

[bobson]

I've gotten under there with Metaknight's down-B before, and Kirby and Fox can both get under there with hammer and shine respectively, so they can stop it too.

 

[sunshade]

I've gotten under there with Metaknight's down-B before, and Kirby and Fox can both get under there with hammer and shine respectively, so they can stop it too.

I will take your word for it but I had absolutely no success with Kirby or fox so I will experiment with them some more.

*I dont want to double post so I am going to edit into this post*

Rudder stall is no longer a black and white issue that can simply be resolved with a ban like it was thought to be before. If pirate ship is allowed then any player who knows how to use the rudder can simply camp under it for eight minutes and defeat his opponent even if he is significantly worse than his opponent. If both players know how to use the rudder to stall then the match becomes will become an underwater footsies match. Both of these scenarios are undoubtedly degenerate and centralize the stage combat around a tiny little rudder and how you can abuse the hell out of it.

The stage also places tournament officials in a strange position if they choose to allow the stage as opposed to simply ban it. The tournament official must choose between banning the tactic flat out despite rudder camping being potentially overcome-able if the player knows about it beforehand. The other option is allowing the tactic but having to moderate every match on pirate ship if it involves those 8 characters who absolutely cannot stop it because the opponent can preform a completely unbeatable tactic without issue.

 

[Sucumbio]

Totally agreed. I'd thought about the rock and it's not enough to ban the stage same as the hiding in the launchpad in halberd isn't, but the rudder nonsense and overall water sports aspect is.

next?

Big Blue: should remain Banned
Final Destination: Move to CP
Onett: Move to CP/Banned
Rumble Falls: Move to CP/Banned
Green Hill Zone: Move to CP/Banned -maybe- there wasn't any clear evidence on the side-camp being broken
Corneria: Is the right-side wall broken?

Spoiler

Pirate Ship: Move to Banned (CURRENT TOPIC)

unless someone has something completely different to talk about, but I figured we should at least hash out these before another 50 pages goes by.

 

[buenob]

pirate ship should be banned... the "transformations" make for unplayable rounds...

FD - neutral/cp
rumble - banned
ghz - banned
corneria - banned
ps - cp/banned <-- it should never move out of this category

.. i've posted on all these stages in the past... not posting again lol... and came to the same final conclusion as everyone but like 3-4 people on it...

 

[infomon]

wait wait wait

sorry I'm slow guys

Spoiler

*cue* I'm too slow *sigh*

I'm confused about this rudder stall thing

Let's say that all but those 8 or 10 chars can stop it. Then it's not stalling unless it's in those few matchups. In those few matchups, if you're 100% unable to hit a rudderstaller, then it's stalling and already banned..... right??
(or is it that they can every now and then come out, fire a laser, then go back to the camping?)

 

[sunshade]

wait wait wait

sorry I'm slow guys

Spoiler

*cue* I'm too slow *sigh*

I'm confused about this rudder stall thing

Let's say that all but those 8 or 10 chars can stop it. Then it's not stalling unless it's in those few matchups. In those few matchups, if you're 100% unable to hit a rudderstaller, then it's stalling and already banned..... right??
(or is it that they can every now and then come out, fire a laser, then go back to the camping?)

If one of those eight characters are being played against someone who is rudderstalling then it is 100% impossible to stop rudder stall. A tourney official can simply throw out a disqualification to the rudderstaller and everyone can be on their marry way.

The issue arises when neither character is of the eight that cannot stop rudder stall strangely enough. Lets run through a hypothetical situation were a Ganondorf player is fighting a fox player to illustrate how the rudder will effect the match.

So the stage is set Ganondorf in the lead by one stock with 193% damage. He is facing fox coming back with 50% damage because fox got nailed by a bomb while not looking (the damage source makes no difference really). Ganondorf knowing full well he cannot win this encounter runs into the water and uses his down-B to stay below the rudder. Fox thinks he has Ganondorf in checkmate and runs into the water as well and uses his down-B to move downwards into the water.

Situation 1

Fox now that he is moving down can move to his left to push Ganondorf into the death zone on the ship and kill Ganondorf. Ganondorf however knows this and decides to move to the right to avoid this. Ganondorf passes fox and floats to the surface while fox is still below him. Fox is still behind and needs to kill Ganondorf so he floats back up as well but he is now in danger because leaving the water you are highly susceptible to a Ganondorf Down air. Fox now has two choices float up get nailed in the face by Ganondorfs boot and die a painful death or stay bellow the rudder and wait as Ganondorf wins by default.

Situation 2

Fox now that he is moving down can move to his left to push Ganondorf into the death zone on the ship and kill Ganondorf. Ganondorf however knows this and decides to move to the right to avoid this. Ganondorf meets fox and continues to swim to the right while fox swims left and a stalemate occurs. Ganondorf suddenly realizes that if he stops swimming to the right he will die and at the same time fox realizes that if he stops swimming left then Ganondorf will do what we just read in Situation 1. Both Ganondorf and fox in what can only be described as a battle of power and skill violently swim right and left respectively! This continues until one gives up and dies or the time runs out and Ganondorf wins by default.

Pirate Ship as far as I am concerned is a perfectly legal stage if one of the players is using one of the eight characters who cannot stop rudder stall otherwise the matches become either situation one or two as detailed above.

 

[infomon]

Wow, that's awesome.

Now we just need tournament play to validate these claims and adequately explore possible solutions to them. I'm excited.

 

[sunshade]

Wow, that's awesome.

Now we just need tournament play to validate these claims and adequately explore possible solutions to them. I'm excited.

I will be counter picking Pirate Ship whenever I know my opponent cannot play any of the 8 characters from before well and I know that they are not the type to go around reading stage legality threads or looking up silly crap like how to stand under a boat.

Hopefully everyone that is reading this thread will also go around abusing this because until people catch on it is free money.