Linkshot
Smash Hero
Just my opinion, although since I'm liberal, my voice is heard as irrational.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
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HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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People, try to come up with reasons more than "This stage is stupid" or "No one likes this stage anyway".
Anyway, I likeLinkshot's Akaku's revised list.
I'll give anyone a cookie if they know why Luigi's Mansion is banned in the first place.
Anyway, I like
I'll give anyone a cookie if they know why Luigi's Mansion is banned in the first place.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
@Marco
Pseudo -circling and -cave-of-life. With the house alive, DK can literally live forever.
Pseudo -circling and -cave-of-life. With the house alive, DK can literally live forever.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I never got that reasoning.
Everyone can live forever. It's called teching.
Everyone can live forever. It's called teching.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Except on that stage, you don't need to tech :/
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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It's kinda sad though. I like Luigi's Mansion, but I'm actually fine with it being banned.
The house being breakable would've fixed a lot of things if the house didn't respawn as quick as it does. Leaving the house half-broken does help, except now the stage acts like Corneria in a sense.
But anyway, we don't need to ban anymore stuff. We actually need to legalize some stages. PKMN Stadium 2 never got to see some light in any tournament I've been to.
The house being breakable would've fixed a lot of things if the house didn't respawn as quick as it does. Leaving the house half-broken does help, except now the stage acts like Corneria in a sense.
But anyway, we don't need to ban anymore stuff. We actually need to legalize some stages. PKMN Stadium 2 never got to see some light in any tournament I've been to.
sunshade
Smash Ace
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I have seen this said multiple times but never seen it done. If DK can survive forever with the house up why didn't Ripple when he fought Overswarm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPOtY5JwiY)? Money was on the line this match and I doubt Ripple tossed up a chance to survive forever and handed the money to Overswarm. I have also never seen anyone circle camp an opponent on Luigi's mansion.
If you can survive forever and circle camp why are people that are playing to win not doing this?
*Fixed Url*
What changed your mind to include Big Blue and Luigi's Mansion? I mean I saw your reasons in green, but those weren't just recently confirmed by you, right? Those are reasons that've been on the table which you've otherwise felt are not -enough- of a problem to not use the stage... or has that outlook changed?
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Keywords: "I would be there"
If you have those two up there, nobody worth their mint will attend. Trust me.
If you have those two up there, nobody worth their mint will attend. Trust me.
blazefox
Smash Journeyman
Lylat Cruise:
As per discussion over Lylat Cruise's legality as a neutral/ starter stage:
Has it been discussed in depth over what characters have a clear disadvantage on this stage and why?
Personally, I see three things with this stage that could possibly present a problem or two, if any, to the entire cast that could hinder its placement as a starter:
1. Tilting of the stage makes planking difficult due to possible SD's under the stage.
2. Background is distracting, especially during the asteroid sequence.
3. Stage is relatively small width wise, with Battlefield size? boundaries.
Granted, the stage size may give a slight disadvantage to characters that base their game around projectiles (Samus?) but none more so then Battlefield, or Yoshi's Island.
The tilting of the stage is not something I believe should really be an excuse for making it a counter-pick, as it no more hinders certain characters recoveries then the lip does on FD. You learn how to deal with it, that's all. The platforms are low enough to the ground that almost every character can use for sharking under, so I don't think that could a reason for placing it as a CP either.
If I'm really missing anything that gives any characters specific advantages on it, by all means point them out, but until then, I stand by that Lylat should be a starter stage, or should be given the option of being a starter.
Luigi's Mansion:
With 1vs1's, this stage is quite, quite large. Heavies, like Snake, DDD, and ROB, can live to insane %'s due to the high ceiling. ROB also has a clear advantage with camping due to his laser not being hindered by the pillars. Snakes's C-4 is almost nigh impossible to see on the floor, just like on Japes, if it's placed on the second floor. The cave of life on the bottom floor is also an issue, but every character can take advantage of that, as long as they can control the space. All characters can take advantage of using the pillars to extend hitboxes time out, since they act like you're hitting a character's shield, any character can take advantage of that. Other then the sheer size of the stage, and the cave of life that any character can take advantage of, I think Luigi's Mansion should be a legitimate CP, or possible ban, depending on the tournament organizer. There's really not too many character specific advantages on the stage, unless you count Lucario's Extreme Awesome AT, or the above forementioned details with ROB and Snake. Personally I'm kind of biased towards this stage being legal for teams, since it's size is like a two floor FD with larger boundaries, but 1vs1's, I think it should be legal/ up to the tourny organizer to be a legit CP.
:Edit: Also, as towards Green Greens, I really don't see this stage being much worse then Pictochat, although it certainly can be more random. Green Greens does have much smaller boundaries, however, which can lead to some very early KO's. The stage traps can be used much in the same way Picto's can be, thus, I think the stage leads to some very interesting techniques by players. I really would enjoy seeing this stage as a counterpick, vs. being banned outright, considering CP'ing it assures that the person picking the stage knows of its traps, and that they can be used against you much the same way that you can use them against your opponent.
As per discussion over Lylat Cruise's legality as a neutral/ starter stage:
Has it been discussed in depth over what characters have a clear disadvantage on this stage and why?
Personally, I see three things with this stage that could possibly present a problem or two, if any, to the entire cast that could hinder its placement as a starter:
1. Tilting of the stage makes planking difficult due to possible SD's under the stage.
2. Background is distracting, especially during the asteroid sequence.
3. Stage is relatively small width wise, with Battlefield size? boundaries.
Granted, the stage size may give a slight disadvantage to characters that base their game around projectiles (Samus?) but none more so then Battlefield, or Yoshi's Island.
The tilting of the stage is not something I believe should really be an excuse for making it a counter-pick, as it no more hinders certain characters recoveries then the lip does on FD. You learn how to deal with it, that's all. The platforms are low enough to the ground that almost every character can use for sharking under, so I don't think that could a reason for placing it as a CP either.
If I'm really missing anything that gives any characters specific advantages on it, by all means point them out, but until then, I stand by that Lylat should be a starter stage, or should be given the option of being a starter.
Luigi's Mansion:
With 1vs1's, this stage is quite, quite large. Heavies, like Snake, DDD, and ROB, can live to insane %'s due to the high ceiling. ROB also has a clear advantage with camping due to his laser not being hindered by the pillars. Snakes's C-4 is almost nigh impossible to see on the floor, just like on Japes, if it's placed on the second floor. The cave of life on the bottom floor is also an issue, but every character can take advantage of that, as long as they can control the space. All characters can take advantage of using the pillars to extend hitboxes time out, since they act like you're hitting a character's shield, any character can take advantage of that. Other then the sheer size of the stage, and the cave of life that any character can take advantage of, I think Luigi's Mansion should be a legitimate CP, or possible ban, depending on the tournament organizer. There's really not too many character specific advantages on the stage, unless you count Lucario's Extreme Awesome AT, or the above forementioned details with ROB and Snake. Personally I'm kind of biased towards this stage being legal for teams, since it's size is like a two floor FD with larger boundaries, but 1vs1's, I think it should be legal/ up to the tourny organizer to be a legit CP.
:Edit: Also, as towards Green Greens, I really don't see this stage being much worse then Pictochat, although it certainly can be more random. Green Greens does have much smaller boundaries, however, which can lead to some very early KO's. The stage traps can be used much in the same way Picto's can be, thus, I think the stage leads to some very interesting techniques by players. I really would enjoy seeing this stage as a counterpick, vs. being banned outright, considering CP'ing it assures that the person picking the stage knows of its traps, and that they can be used against you much the same way that you can use them against your opponent.
The Japanese 'play to win' but don't utilize a lot of the more "gay" tactics such as planking. Possible reasons for not being extremely "gay" include lack of knowledge of how to do so and the aforementioned reason, or the straight refusal to do so as well. One could also lack the patience to continue with such a technique over the course of an entire match / set.
As an example of what ISN'T the above, look at Plank He's one of the main reasons the stage is banned - He circle camped a ROB on LM for the win. I'm pretty sure we've also seen his infamous match with Puffster.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Cool can you link us to the vids of this?
Sure, I can link you to Puffster's match on Stadium, Sir I Miss Big Events. As to Plank's match with the ROB, I'll try to dig it up. It's been a while.
clowsui
Smash Legend
up b braking wasn't known at that time
infomon
Smash Scientist
ohhhh sorry I misunderstood, I thought you meant he timed out Puffster on LM. Yeah he did it on Stadium which is lolz, the diddy played bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw
PieDisliker
Smash Lord
I wouldn't really count Yoshi's Island (Melee) as having a walkoff. It's a slope, so you really can't chaingrab on it. The only reason I'd consider it banned is the bottom center. But I wouldn't consider it worse than say... Mansion or Distant Planet.
And what would happen if the Neutral Stage List was...
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
I actually don't think it would be too bad to leave Yoshi's Island as a CP. I think this could actually work out, just considering of the awkward design of the stage, and it being so small. This may be something that could be tested to work out well.
And what would happen if the Neutral Stage List was...
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
I actually don't think it would be too bad to leave Yoshi's Island as a CP. I think this could actually work out, just considering of the awkward design of the stage, and it being so small. This may be something that could be tested to work out well.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
But those aren't any of the deciding factors that make a stage starter or counterpick O_o It doesn't matter what the shape of the stage is if it isn't influential in matchups to a good degree. The stage isn't significantly good or bad for many characters (see final destination) to a large degree, so it makes since as the neutral since it would be neutral for most matchups.
GwJ
Smash Hero
It promotes stalling and camping inside the mansion. You can essentially live forever if you stay under the floor.
Overswarm
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There is nothing wrong with the timer going to 0.
The timer is at 8 minutes. What you DO in those 8 minutes is up to you; your goal is victory.
We have a specific definition for stalling; sitting in the mansino at 200% because you'll live longer isn't stalling. It's smart. Are you seriously advocating for competitive players to take a disadvantage off of some arbitrary idea of what is "fair"?
Besides, you can easily control the stage. Kill the top sections, then kill the bottom. No more ceiling to tech off of.
I'll never understand people that want to ban stages they themselves don't understand.
Two things to address here.
One, the timer going to zero consistently IS an issue from the TO's point of view. If every single match at Pound 4 had ran to time the tourney would have lasted a week. This is a minor point, though.
The main issue I have here is that you seem to act like nobody else but people who want the stage legal have any experience with the stage. It took five major tourneys (50+ people) in NJ with the stage being abused by people clearly worse overall for us to ban it. We didn't see it get abused once; we saw it abused quite a lot, including some sets where it boosted the placings of people who arguably shouldn't have been that high, including myself on one or two occasions.
Just because your experiences don't include the same problems other people have had doesn't mean their issues aren't legitimate.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Then the timer should be decreased. If matches lasting eight minutes is a problem then the option of it lasting eight minutes should be removed instead.
The absolute amount of time isn't the issue so much as matches going to time consistently. I won't deny that it's a perfectly fine methodology to win matches; my main practice partner for Brawl is probably the second most infamous in the state for winning a fair number of matches by doing so. However, he once timed out all of his matches in several sets including all three finals sets of a tourney, and the end result was us going two hours past the time we had expected to finish. Whether that time is six, seven, or eight minutes, it ends up greatly lengthening the amount of time you spend.
While I would never use that as a main point as to whether or not a stage is legal, it's something I keep in the back of my mind.
Overswarm
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We had it as an issue in our tournaments as well; I then showed players how to get around standard strategies and it is no longer a broken stage. It also isn't 2008 anymore, so no one CPs the stage unless they really know it's good for their character (like Lucario).
Thus, the timer should be lowered. It isn't a player's fault, and he shouldn't be punished for the TOs issues.
Because you are the god of Smash, good sir, and know everything us Plebians don't. If you can show me guaranteed ways to get around character's like MK's dominance on that stage, I might give credence to this argument, but your region is infamous for, no offense, being behind on the metagame (You once played a Bowser in grand finals).
When did I say it was the player's fault? Like I said, the issue is not the value of x as the variable representing time but rather the fact that the value of x as a maximum is consistently hit as a method to win.
As far as lowering the time limit on matches goes, this is fine to a point; that point being the time at which it becomes more and more advantageous to stall and the metagame centers more and more around characters like Falco who are excellent at camping and opening up distance, but that's another debate entirely.
Ripple
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I don't see the problem with mansion.
complaint: "characters can literally live forever!"
reponse: destoy the pillars. it becomes FD. quit being lazy IN GAME
complaint: MK, Olimar, DK, and a few others are too good on this stage. its not a fair CP
response: since when do CP stages have to be fair to everyone? if your character does bad on that stage thats your fault for not switching characters. we also don't ban stages that give 1 character a big advantage. that would be stupid.
just like japes shouldn't be banned.
C: Klap trap killed me!
R: it comes every 10 seconds. learn to count and avoid it.
C: DK, falco, and peach are broken on this stage.
R: again, we don't ban stages because they give 2-3 characters an advantage. thats the point of a CP!!!
complaint: "characters can literally live forever!"
reponse: destoy the pillars. it becomes FD. quit being lazy IN GAME
complaint: MK, Olimar, DK, and a few others are too good on this stage. its not a fair CP
response: since when do CP stages have to be fair to everyone? if your character does bad on that stage thats your fault for not switching characters. we also don't ban stages that give 1 character a big advantage. that would be stupid.
just like japes shouldn't be banned.
C: Klap trap killed me!
R: it comes every 10 seconds. learn to count and avoid it.
C: DK, falco, and peach are broken on this stage.
R: again, we don't ban stages because they give 2-3 characters an advantage. thats the point of a CP!!!
Focusing on destroying the mansion puts you at a disadvantage, and the mansion doesn't stay destroyed long enough for that to be an effective strategy anyways.
There's a difference between a character having an advantage and the metagame getting focused around one character as a result of them being far too good on the stage.
By this logic the cars in Port Town Aero Dive are fine as well, right? Let's also ignore that characters can fairly easily hit you into klaptraps, etc.
See above; a stage should give an advantage to, not give a free win to.
Overswarm
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This took me back to 2008. Tornado's still broken on Mansion because it "traps" you against the ceiling over there too?
Metaknight actually does incredibly poorly on Luigi's Mansion against anyone who actually does a good job. Metaknight's worst starter in most matchups is Final Destination, which is Mansion's "destroyed" form. Metaknight also cannot effectively attack through the mid-platform; his u-air leads to little to no followup on this stage due to the plats being solid (different from everywhere else) and does low damage, and his dair is laggy enough to where attempts to attack from the top get you punished severely. Characters like Olimar and Lucario who normally have incredible difficulty overcoming MK's edgeguarding game find the tables have turned in their favor on this stage by a significant margin. Characters like G&W now can easily survive much longer just due to the size of the stage + bucket bracking, and G&W's up+b allows for a great "chase" game if G&W is in the lead. Have you ever tried chasing a campy G&W on mansion without breaking the house (which in turn makes it into a giant FD where grounded up+b won't kill ever for MK)? It's not pretty.
Mansion is a counterpick and good for some characters, but it is hardly a good MK stage and it most certainly isn't complex.
And yeah, I know more than you.
Ripple
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so does getting on the left side of frigate. but guess what you need to do it if you want to win.
more than 1 character is amazing on mansion. DK, olimar, Rob, lucario?, snake, ZSS,
this means that it doesn't over cetralize because more than 1 character can play this stage very well.
I'm fine with it, yes.
again the point of a CP is to give you an advantage. if you can hit characters into the cars more easily than your opponent go for it. they can switch characters.
there are no free wins in this game, including DDD vs. DK.
it may be more of an advantage on some stages but guess what? thats the point.
overswarm can probably explain this better than I can
Theorycraft only goes so far. I would know; I spend a grand majority of my time doing so in relations to WoW. Maybe what you said works, maybe it does not.
As usual, I submit that you need evidence of this to disprove prior experiences I have. Not that I expect you to have any, nor that I expect you to present it even if you do.
For somebody who claims they need 'extensive testing' for anything to happen in regards to legality and banning in competition you sure are uptight with providing the results of that testing to the rest of us.
EDIT: @ripple: Show me a DK who can beat D3 with the standing infinite allowed and I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. Ignoring that blatant error in your post, most of that is just the opposite side of the spectrum from the way I treat stage theory, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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I'm not theorycrafting. I actually play these stages. You're guessing. I'm remembering. To anyone who has routinely played the stage, it's pretty obvious; you're basically parroting what Wolf mains in 2008 said.
Your first clue is that we don't have someone here CPing Luigi's Mansion all the time and winning his counterpick.
Besides, you'd be the one to have to give evidence to me. You can't just ban a stage and then say "prove it's worthwhile" or we'd have nothing left. Luigi's Mansion was banned within a very short time span on the east coast, and it's been around since day 1 in the midwest and has appeared at many tournaments.
From a logical perspective and a bit of knowledge about how people discuss the stage, we can assume one of two things on our own:
1. The stage has many characters that do well on it
2. No one knows what they're talking about
I've heard "Character X is broken on Mansion" so many times it makes my head spin. Funny thing is, they're all different characters. Luigi's Mansion makes people change their playstyle if they want to win. If your opponent doesn't and you do, it DOES look pretty hopeless... but it looks hopeless the same way a noob MK fighting a good IC looks hopeless. Anyone experienced in that situation simply says "you're doing it wrong" and ignores the crying. Since everyone is crying about a different character, either all these characters are super good on it (which is fine) or no one has yet to discover who is the best on Mansion (meaning it shouldn't be banned yet).
There's really nothing wrong with mansion at all. o_O
Negatory, Ghostrider. I don't need to convince you to ban it; I will almost certainly never attend an event you host, if not just because of the sheer distance involved. However, the fact that NA has it banned is an issue with you, and you want us to unban it, and change the perception in our and similar regions that it should be banned. Simply saying "Your reasons are illegitimate, your experiences are wrong, now prove to me otherwise" isn't any kind of way to go about this. We have our own evidence as to why it should be banned. If you want us to unban it, you need to show us evidence that overturns the old evidence.
And as for unbalanced characters on Mansion, the only three I've seen win with any consistency are Olimar, MK, and DK, and almost all the matches I've seen there involve two of the three aformentioned characters, with every match in the top eight bracket there involving those three in some combination.
PieDisliker
Smash Lord
People have still chosen Yoshi's Island as a cp, and just had the three neutral stages has Smashville, FD, and Battlefield. Even if they didn't think it thoroughly enough, they still chose Yoshi's Island as a cp. They must've had some reasoning as to why it was.
And another thing is that I've seen more successful meteor smashes on that stage than any other stage. It's shape has made recoveries the easiest to punish. That's probably one of it's only cp qualities.
If anything, I want to know if changing Yoshi's Island to be a cp would have any effect at all in tournies. Maybe it's more like PS1 and Lylat than people would think.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I like Luigi's, I really do, but it has circling... I'm pretty sure.
That's it's sole opponent. Simply running around the three layers, and specifically the solid second platforms, is stalling. Is the only defense against that to destroy the house? That only gives 20 seconds of FD Time, while I'm fairly sure it takes much longer than that to destroy it. While it might not be true 100% circling, if the majority of the time on the stage is spent circling... that's not good.
Of course I might be wrong, and circling doesn't exist there (which I hope is true), but it seems pretty apparent.
That's it's sole opponent. Simply running around the three layers, and specifically the solid second platforms, is stalling. Is the only defense against that to destroy the house? That only gives 20 seconds of FD Time, while I'm fairly sure it takes much longer than that to destroy it. While it might not be true 100% circling, if the majority of the time on the stage is spent circling... that's not good.
Of course I might be wrong, and circling doesn't exist there (which I hope is true), but it seems pretty apparent.
The Brigand
Smash Cadet
I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but wouldn't destroying only half the house (as in, the left or the right side) work too?
GwJ
Smash Hero
Technically, as long as at least one pillar is standing, it will not respawn.
All of NA's logic gets routed through the BBR, because we take it 100% seriously.
Honestly, OS, your argument is piss-weak. It essentially boils down to this:
"I know something you don't about the stage that makes it fine. I don't need to prove this because I know more and you are stupid."
I'm not below admitting that I am wrong about the stage. I would love for there to be more viable stages in the game, and I personally am a fan of LM - I CPd it quite a lot when it was legal here. But as of now I have a plethora of reasons it should be banned and very few reasons it shouldn't.
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