Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy should be +3 against G&W. There is very little a G&W could do against a camping Diddy.

 

[Exceladon City]

Explain the mu to me then.

Don't get gimmicked by Dsmash.
Fireball negates anything from your gun.
If Luigi is on the defensive in the air, he has an issue.
If ZSS is on the defensive in the air, she has it just as bad.

Luigi stays mid/close range. ZSS has 2 (or 3 in your case lol stick2 good options to get him out. Dsmash, which you just don't react to first because it has stupid good frame advantage. Utilt, which is the most threatening and Dtilt, which is meh imo.

This whole "I can just do this and win" mentality only works on people who are uneducated.

 

[Sinister Slush]

When NickRiddle says so because apparently his word is law around these parts.

Sounds like ESAM and pikachu. No wonder they're brothers.

 

[NickRiddle]

Don't get gimmicked by Dsmash.

Define gimmicked. I am using it to keep Luigi away, and the only option you have is fireball... which will just get PSed because you cannot charge specials.

Fireball negates anything from your gun.

Why are we using paralyzer while you're on the ground? It's used to frame-trap opponents in the air, or hit them while they're doing something laggy. Neutral position paralyzer is terrible.

If ZSS is on the defensive in the air, she has it just as bad.

How is this true? I would bet ZSS is almost as, if not as fast, as Luigi on the ground, sans tornado. if we're in the air, b-reversals/down-b would get us out of any situation you could put us in/

Luigi stays mid/close range. ZSS has 2 (or 3 in your case lol stick2 good options to get him out. Dsmash, which you just don't react to first because it has stupid good frame advantage. Utilt, which is the most threatening and Dtilt, which is meh imo.

ZSS LOVES mid/close range on the ground. First, we out-range anything you have with d-smash, so we'll just throw it out there. It's safe on normal shields, and you slide away. Just gonna PS it? Cool, we'll charge it for a few frames, and now you're getting pushed away. Good luck getting in.
U-tilt is STUPIDLY risky in thsi MU. Get read and get up-bed during ending lag? THE BEST MOVE IN THE MU YO!
D-tilt is MUCH better. A little more starting, but WAY less ending. Also, more reach, and it sets up better.

This whole "I can just do this and win" mentality only works on people who are uneducated.

If Luigi wasn't a terrible character, I'd agree with you... but as characters get worse, you need to think less.


Can you explain to me how Luigi EVER gets in if I just use d-smash/bair?
D-smash clearly outranges all of your moves, and if you normal-shield it, you get pushed back. It's also like... frame neutral on shields, so your roll/side-step options don't exist to help you get in.
Once knocked into the air, if we have space, we should be using u-smash, as it beats your nair. If we don't have the space... then we just back off > bair... or shield...
Fireballs will also get PSed, because you cannot charge them, so the argument actually makes sense unlike vs. our d-smash.

Unless anything I said is wrong... it's your move, Kaiba.

 

[Exceladon City]

Pardon the lack of quotes.

Gimmicked as in using the flexibility of the move to get people to fall into otherwise avoidable stuff.

When I said "Anything from your gun" I meant "Anything that comes from your ****** Cricket". SideB, neutral B, presumably Dsmash etc.

You can change directions and downB all you want, it doesn't keep someone from following your trajectory and doing whatever. Trust me, I do it to DKs that decide to UpB out of my aerial strings. Along with Sonic, Marth, GW and whoever else has a "GTFO" move.

As far as the charged Dsmashes go, I've yet to experience anything of the sort. But please believe that if and when I do come across the shenanicanery, I'll give you my input on it.

You talk about the worse the characters get, the less you have to think, yet you've lost to X's Sonic on 2 separate occasions and he literally does nothing but downB at people.

See, I'd honestly have to play you. Clearly actions speak way louder than words.
This is all Super Theory Bros. talk and it's pretty mindless and gets nothing done. The only ZSS I've played recently was Salem and game 1 was last stock with him having 41% and game 2, he 2 stocked me. I got hit with alot of stuff that I didn't know linked together. >.>

Regardless, I got outplayed.

Also, I'm not Kaiba. Got that Weevil?

 

[NickRiddle]

Pardon the lack of quotes.

Gimmicked as in using the flexibility of the move to get people to fall into otherwise avoidable stuff.

When I said "Anything from your gun" I meant "Anything that comes from your ****** Cricket". SideB, neutral B, presumably Dsmash etc.

How would it stop d-smash? It doesn't work like that.

You can change directions and downB all you want, it doesn't keep someone from following your trajectory and doing whatever. Trust me, I do it to DKs that decide to UpB out of my aerial strings. Along with Sonic, Marth, GW and whoever else has a "GTFO" move.

I was kinda saying you're too slow to keep up with me in the air...

You talk about the worse the characters get, the less you have to think, yet you've lost to X's Sonic on 2 separate occasions and he literally does nothing but downB at people.

Yo man... Real talk?
Not having a grab makes Sonic a MUCH better character.
Also, Luigi is much worse than Sonic, IMO.

See, I'd honestly have to play you. Clearly actions speak way louder than words.
This is all Super Theory Bros. talk and it's pretty mindless and gets nothing done. The only ZSS I've played recently was Salem and game 1 was last stock with him having 41% and game 2, he 2 stocked me. I got hit with alot of stuff that I didn't know linked together. >.>

On wi-fi, or IRL?

Regardless, I got outplayed.

Also, I'm not Kaiba. Got that Weevil?

SAY GOODBYE TO EXODIA!

 

[Exceladon City]

How would it stop d-smash? It doesn't work like that.

Notice the "presumably" there? I haven't tried it yet.

I was kinda saying you're too slow to keep up with me in the air...

Yeah your point? Like 30 characters in this game outspeed Luigi in the air. It doesn't keep me from hitting the ground and chasing you down.

Yo man... Real talk?
Not having a grab makes Sonic a MUCH better character.
Also, Luigi is much worse than Sonic, IMO.

You have a jab and armor pieces. I don't want to hear it. Also, Sonic is a better character.

On wi-fi, or IRL?

At APEX in pools.

SAY GOODBYE TO EXODIA!

**** Exodia.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ive played the Luigi v ZSS MU multiple times and imo it's +2 for ZSS. She has a solid advantage pretty much everywhere in the Match Up. Her aerials (mainly bair and uair) are better with their range and disjoints, her projectiles and gun moves (Side B, dsmash, etc) are better and have much better range, shes WAY faster, her kill moves are pretty safe, etc.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Who is Z'Zgashi?

I think she's better than Ganon. Zelda is slightly faster, has a good glide toss (Which makes her disadvantaged against Diddy instead of hard countered), doesn't get chaingrabbed hard like Ganon (Which makes Pikachu and King Dedede disadvantages instead of hard countereds), and actually has advantages and even matchups like Bowser (+1), Ganon (+2), Puff (0), and Falcon (0).

Zelda does suck though, but I think Ganon is worse. Ganon has like a handful of auto losses, which means Ganon is really useless.

Bowser vs Zelda is not advantageous.
Ganon vs Zelda is even.
Puff and Falcon vs Zelda are -1.

Zelda probably has more -4's than Ganon, just sayin'.

 

[infiniteV115]

Z'zgashi = Fluttershy iirc, if that helps.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh okay. Thanks.

I hate name changes.

 

[Z'zgashi]

My name has always been Z'zgashi, Fluttershy was more just a joke to piss people off lol.

 

[Doc King]

Who is Z'Zgashi?



Bowser vs Zelda is not advantageous.
Ganon vs Zelda is even.
Puff and Falcon vs Zelda are -1.

Zelda probably has more -4's than Ganon, just sayin'.

Well, that's according to the matchup chart.

This looks kind of an interesting and tight thing to debate about. I mean for Ganon's advantage he has a much better side b and dair. Although he gets wrecked by chaingrabs a lot more.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I feel like the main thing holding Ganon down in last place is his susceptibility to chaingrabs. If not for that, I would say he could above Zelda. (Though Ganon would still probably have a worse MU spread, considering Zelda currently has -64 and he has -100.)

As it is, they are clearly the worst two. I could see Puff and Link moving up a tier someday, but not them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

My name has always been Z'zgashi, Fluttershy was more just a joke to piss people off lol.

Oh lol. My apologies then.

I feel like the main thing holding Ganon down in last place is his susceptibility to chaingrabs. If not for that, I would say he could above Zelda. (Though Ganon would still probably have a worse MU spread, considering Zelda currently has -64 and he has -100.)

As it is, they are clearly the worst two. I could see Puff and Link moving up a tier someday, but not them.

Possibly. Zelda still gets chaingrabbed by some characters though.

Zelda's match ups are mostly wrong.

I would say at least:
IC's, Marth, Falco, Pikachu, Snake, Dedede, Toon Link, Lucario, Peach, Wolf, Kirby, Shielda, Sheik, ROB, Yoshi, Ike, Lucas and Link need to all have another -1 tacked onto whatever their score is now.

Bowser, Jiggs, Falcon and Ganon are blatently wrong. lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

No way in hell does Yoshi have a +2 on Zelda, that MU is much closer to even than a +2. It's a solid +1.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can't see how Zelda gets past eggs and bair.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Usmash and fsmash eat bair alive, and all she needs to stop eggs is get Yoshi into a position where he need to stop with the eggs to avoid Din's JUST ONCE, then keep the pressure on with Din's cuz we cant shield it reliably.

I mean, its still +1 Yoshi cuz we CAN camp her ans such, but bair DOESNT work very well in this MU and she can halt our camping with a single well placed Din's.

EDIT: We also are ridiculously susceptible to Lightning Kicks cuz we have this big *** nose leaning out there which is literally in the perfect place for Zelda to hit.

 

[Alacion]

I have quite a bit of Yoshi experience (one of the better players in my area mains Yoshi ) and after playing against Yoshi quite a number of times... I find Yoshi just has a lot of good options to deal with Zelda.

For instance, Yoshi's great air mobility causes Zelda to be in the air herself to keep up and Zelda's air game is quite weak. Zelda's forced to approach due to Egg Throw and Yoshi's neutral air cancels out Din's Fire.

Zelda's landing options are rather bad and Yoshi takes full advantage of this with his up smash's excellent hitboxes or his pivot grabs.


Now on the flip side... Yoshi is kinda big so he is more prone to being kicked but good thing Yoshi's kind of heavy. Zelda also has her up smash and up air that can deal with Yoshi approaching from above although nobody should ever approach Zelda

I'm still pretty sure the matchup is right at +1 Yoshi, but if I had to lean towards 0 or +2, I'd lean towards +2.

Edit: One thing to add though is that Nayru's Love is pretty good against Yoshi's eggs but the lag from Nayru's makes Zelda wide open to punishment.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Try baiting her into up-smash and punish the cooldown.

Yoshi is mobile, Zelda is not.

 

[Dre89]

Doc- Sideb and dair aren't even Dorf's best moves. His best moves are uair and dash attack in my opinion.

I'd say the only significant thing he has over Zelda is that he's a much more mobile punisher. Uair and iDa, and to an extent sideb actually allow him to punish commitments that aren't right in his face. Zelda can't really punish you hard unless you basically charge at her.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Side B also gives Ganon setups.

The only set ups Zelda has is that stupid down tilt.

 

[Doc King]

Doc- Sideb and dair aren't even Dorf's best moves. His best moves are uair and dash attack in my opinion.

I'd say the only significant thing he has over Zelda is that he's a much more mobile punisher. Uair and iDa, and to an extent sideb actually allow him to punish commitments that aren't right in his face. Zelda can't really punish you hard unless you basically charge at her.

Ganon really can punish better than Zelda. Because Ganon's moves are so strong.

Side B also gives Ganon setups.

The only set ups Zelda has is that stupid down tilt.

Not to mention how Zelda's d tilt is DIable while Ganon's is unDIable.

 

[Kuro~]

Actually, di-ing dtilt doesn't stop the set up. Just so you know...and sdi-ing it takes a few times.

 

[Fuujin]

(Though Ganon would still probably have a worse MU spread, considering Zelda currently has -64 and he has -100.)

For the record, about half of Zelda's match ups on the chart are wrong.

 

[Fuujin]

Zelda actually has advantages and even matchups like Bowser (+1), Ganon (+2)

Dat 2009 mentality.

 

[Flayl]

Fuujin speaking from that Bowser experience

 

[Alacion]

It would actually be nice to see some explanations from the Zelda panel... but they might be the ONLY character panel that hasn't said a word about the MU chart since it was released.

I know that DarkMusician and Ed are very good Zeldas but when the rest of the Zelda boards unanimously agree that 1/3 of her current MUs are wrong, then we have a problem.

 

[Fuujin]

I talked with ed about it actually.

You can probably ask him about it, but from the sounds of it a lot of it wasn't even his fault.

Edit:
Idk about Bowser because he's bad and no one uses him but I think Ganondorf is 0.
Riot lost to Puffster's Jigglypuff and I lost to Ally's Falcon so those are probably -1s instead of 0s.

 

[Doc King]

Actually, di-ing dtilt doesn't stop the set up. Just so you know...and sdi-ing it takes a few times.

It just helps you escape from the move so you only get d tilted a few times rather than like 7.

For the record, about half of Zelda's match ups on the chart are wrong.

I'm just curious, but how come there's so much disagreement from you guys and like some other Zelda players? I just don't see how ppl from the BBR would have biased opinions on Zelda.

Dat 2009 mentality.

lol. I got those from the matchup chart.

It would actually be nice to see some explanations from the Zelda panel... but they might be the ONLY character panel that hasn't said a word about the MU chart since it was released.

I know that DarkMusician and Ed are very good Zeldas but when the rest of the Zelda boards unanimously agree that 1/3 of her current MUs are wrong, then we have a problem.

You guys should talk the the admins about it. They might be able to do something about it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The idea is that people don't know any better. To be fair, getting accurate data on low tier characters is difficult because those matchups don't see high-level play often.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There's rarely disagreements between the active SWF Zelda players.

The only disagreements come from:

- AlmostLegendary
- People who don't main Zelda
- people who used to main Zelda but don't play the game anymore
- everyone from AiB

Three of the four members of the Zelda panel satisfy at least one of those criteria. (mainly 2 & 3)

 

[Fuujin]

I'm just curious, but how come there's so much disagreement from you guys and like some other Zelda players? I just don't see how ppl from the BBR would have biased opinions on Zelda.

If by "other Zelda players" you mean the people on her panel then I'll have to stop you there.

Only one of them uses Zelda, and that's only half of the time.
DM doesn't play anymore and the other two people on her panel don't even use her.

 

[Ghostbone]

Doc- Sideb and dair aren't even Dorf's best moves. His best moves are uair and dash attack in my opinion.

Ganon's side-b is easily his best move imo. Command grabs are generally amazing and Ganon's side-b isn't an exception. Plus his combos into stuff on almost every character, and allows him to tech chase to larger punishes.

Uair is good but on most stages you have to get them in the air first.
Dash attack is good but it's not as useful as dair, uair, side-b and jab imo.

 

[Fuujin]

The idea is that people don't know any better. To be fair, getting accurate data on low tier characters is difficult because those matchups don't see high-level play often.

This is a ****ty excuse, you have two people (me and Riot) that go 100% Zelda in tournament and you guys choose some has-been and 2 other people that don't use her on the panel, then try to say "Well ya see it's so hard to find someone that uses her derpaherp".

The BBR don goofed, I don't see why they just can't admit that rather than try to cover their ***** when they've ****ed up.

 

[Alacion]

I think as far as the BBR goes, they had to pick a leader for the panel which was DarkM and that's not a bad decision imo. The problem is with DarkM's panel selection (and I agree that since Zelda is 2nd worst in the game, people don't know better about her).

I think the panel consisted of a Shielda (30% Zelda or lower), Diddy main, Bowser main, and a former Zelda main. Fuujin and Riot should definitely have been considered.

 

[Kuro~]

Lol at thinking ed is a has-been.

And ed definitely goes more zelda than you guys even give him credit for.

 

[Doc King]

That's really sad how ppl who don't even use Zelda ar ein the BBR for Zelda while the true Zelda mains aren't. That's like the worst way to put in matchups for a character.

I've seen the aib Zelda boards and I saw someone saying Zelda vs Climbers was even. I really think that's really stupid because Zelda will have a hard time landing anything without getting infinited.

 

[Doc King]

That's really sad how ppl who don't even use Zelda ar ein the BBR for Zelda while the true Zelda mains aren't. That's like the worst way to put in matchups for a character.

I've seen the aib Zelda boards and I saw someone saying Zelda vs Climbers was even. I really think that's really stupid because Zelda will have a hard time landing anything without getting infinited.

Edit: Thing glitched up again.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is a ****ty excuse, you have two people (me and Riot) that go 100% Zelda in tournament and you guys choose some has-been and 2 other people that don't use her on the panel, then try to say "Well ya see it's so hard to find someone that uses her derpaherp".

The BBR don goofed, I don't see why they just can't admit that rather than try to cover their ***** when they've ****ed up.

All players that were chosen for the chart have a lot of general knowledge. I don't know much about the two players you speak of, but, they probably just wanted to make sure it was high-level players talking about the matchups. That isn't to say that you aren't, but, if I'm not sure, others might not be, either.

Also, Ed is an excellent player, and you show your ignorance by calling him a has-been.