Official SWF Tier List v8

[smashkng]

Marth's placing isn't a flaw

his design is a flaw (okay he's still better than around 75% of the characters but still you know what I mean lol).

he gets juggled so easily and gets stuck at the ledge so easily which builds up ledge grabs fast and you can wall him out easily

but maybe I'm just biased from meta knight's perspective. Still i see mikeneko beat rain otori zero in sets and I played him in japan and he's INSANELY GOOD. he 2 stocked me like 3 times in a row once. But I also 3 stocked him 2-3 times. We go back and forth like crazy, but I've still won around 60% of the games and I feel like he's playing his character perfectly to his max potential a lot of the time too yet I just feel marth's limitations more than other players do. It makes me feel like the character is limited, and sometimes can just be 3 stocked cuz of lack of options. I also did better and better as I played him more, because I was figuring out the MU more the more I played, where I have options as MK that he doesn't have as Marth.

Try to use Metaknight's ground up B when Marth is at the ledge for example. It really shuts down everything. It beats ledge hop fair, ledge jump fair, neutralizes with Counter, and only really loses to a hard read up B cuz that's invincible but that's really risky for marth to do also.

Try to get marth above you, and just fall with him. After he air dodges, or fairs, or misses any retaliation, you can just get a free hit. And the longer you fall with him, the more you can either mix up doing a random attack at ANY point in time (like random shuttle loop), with just falling for him waiting for him to do ANYTHING and react to the lag afterwords and you get a free hit.

The great thing with MK is that once marth misses a Fair or air dodge on you (by falling under him), your Dair will often instant-KO his horrible recovery as you edge hog him after. Even if you don't get the edge hog gimp, you still get an edge hog + reverse Nair (12 or 19%) anyway.

Try to stand at the edge shielding as a marth below you tries to recover, then do a last-second edge hog just before you think marth will up B. There's a small chance you'll take a few % by guessing wrong, but an even higher chance that you'll get either an edge hog to instant KO, or edge hog to be able to reverse Nair marth off the other side of the stage. not to mention random Rain/Zero/Otori-style drop down and up B to regrab the ledge as mixups.

Those are 3 flaws right off the bat that players don't use enough.

I don't just put characters in a list without a reason. I think Marth has HUGE flaws in Brawl. Marth is much better in Melee to me. They're both borderline between top and high tier in each game, but I feel Marth is more viable to win nationals in melee than in brawl by far also.

It is possible I'm wrong. maybe Marth is amazing. I just don't feel he's better than the characters above him. But it's still REALLY CLOSE. As I said numbers 6 through 13 or so can be like really close. That's my rankings opinion but if it was ordered numerically, it would be really close after the top 5 ends. Top 5 are clearly above the rest imo.

So you think Marth is too easy to juggle and gets stucked at the ledge easily. Now I'd like to hear how characters like Diddy, Olimar, ICs and Snake have an easier time on the ledge and and easier time getting down than Marth does.

 

[bubbaking]

The answer to that is MK (is all that matters).

This is from the previous list discussion but I wanted to reply to it before it was lost forever:

And the Japanese are clearly playing sonic wrong if hes as low as he is on their tier list.

Should they raise him 10 spots because Espy is amazing? Probably not, and thats why we dont give a fk what they do with pit on their tier list.

The difference is, however, that Earth comes over to our tournaments and places well. Do any of our Sonics do the same over there? I'd suggest putting more stock into the Japanese Tier Lists than we do now because they actually back up some their opinions by coming over and placing well. We only beat them on their home turf with MK and ICs. <__<

 

[Tesh]

by throwing stuff at him

 

[CT Chia]

Marth too high as always, ZSS too low as always, IC probably don't deserve their own tier, at least wolf is higher than fox. (Why is peach below ROB zzz)
Luigi still not low tier confuses me, he's actually terrible.

People still underrating Snake though nobody plays him so I can't really complain.

Despite ROB being an awful awful character, I'm glad ROB is actually above Peach. One of the few things I like seeing about ROB on here. He has more use in the metagame than Peach does for sure.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, use.....like taking out MK in tourney.

Interesting how Wario has a net gain of +-0.....

 

[Tikao]

nice tier-list ... and lucas isn't a low-tier anymore
never understood why lucas was considered to be that bad ... he doesn't moved a spot higher or lower, but lucas for mid-tier and thats awesome :D

 

[Armada]

Yay I called MK as first and ICs as second 5 years ago and now it happend

Was reading through the bigger part of this thread and for me it seems like the brawl community have the same "problem" as the melee community has when it comes to tierlists. WHY is everyone putting so much focus on results?

If results is THAT important why is it even necessary to vote in the first place?
Results are fact and personal preference is a opinion. I don't understand why the system should be based on opinons when everyone use results (facts) as the clear argument.

However I have a lot of times said when I have been talking about this topic with melee players that I don't think results are THAT important when it comes to tierlists.

Of course it all comes down to what the community want the tierlist to represant (maybe it excist some generall rule for it I don't know) but I do think some kind of "human level"/potencial should be what the tierlist represent. By putting so much effort into the results you basically just say who the top players are without thinking about how good the chars truley are.

I also think the "lazy" way of thinking that becomes a results of this "results-based" lists is a problem for many players. Because you don't put as much time to understand

- What works in every single situation.
-How to cover options
- How to edgeguard/recover
- Punish game
- deffensive parts
-etc

If you think about that enough you will most likely get a better clue on how good the chars are. You will also UNDERSTAND them much better. So you will also improve more as a player because you now know how to play because you have more knowledge.

I hate to use myself as a example but in this case I do think it is a pretty good one and I don't follow the brawl community so I don't know any really good example (even if it exists a lot of them).

Me vs Hbox in melee is a perfect example (as I think many brawlers at least heard about on Apex 2012). Before I started to use Y link vs Hbox basically every single player thought the MU was not good at all for Y link. Y link has for such a long time been consider a very bad char. He also have NO results that shows he could have any good MUs against the better chars (Would say Y link vs puff is very even)

After I won A LOT of people talked about how Y link CLEARLY won the MU based on 2 ****ing games where Hbox had no experience in the MU at all. I think this set proved a lot when it comes to how people think when it comes to MUs/tierlists.

Instead of trying to really understand why something works/doesn't work they use results instead cause it's easier. But a easier path is many times not the best path and as a RESULT most people do not improve as much as they could do!

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Well, I think they base their arguments upon results mostly because they are readily available and easy to make a case out of it. Of course there are always some "upsets" (such as Ganon 3 stocking MK for example, I think this may have happened in or out of a tourney match) but they are relatively rare I think. Just my 2 cents I guess.

 

[Kewkky]

I assume IC's single-tier placement has less to do with how good he is, and more along the lines of how many voted him as 2nd vs how many voted Olimar as 3rd. There must've been a big gap between #2 and #3 averaged votes for ICs to be separated in their own tier. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with. And by the way, there's only a handful of people in the BBR who get to see the tier list before it's released, so we're not all to blame for the tier separation.

Don't blame the BBR. Blame the ridiculous idea of a community voted tierlist. I had no idea it was an actual vote >_>
I thought it was just to see what the general opinion is and then compared it to the actual one, but instead random people got to make ICs #1 because everyone else says so.

I posted in the OP that it would count towards the tier list. Whether you only read what you wanted or not is your own fault, and only yours.

I dunno. I'd say Marth has a lot of untapped spacing game potential. With the right spacing, he can out reach and out-prioritize even MK. Zero-Suit has the reach and combo-bility to deal with it, just as Wario can combat with his superior spacing, but i doubt Pikachu can outclass him.

Wario SUCKS at spacing (hitting with the tip of his hitboxes) and zoning (using attacks to keep the opponent at bay). He's pretty good at playing footsies though (weaving in and out of the opponent's max range to bait reactions).

Also, Armada is right. However, I believe people use results to argue their points because they can't use experience to argue it. Or they lack the ability to see things from an unbiased standpoint. Or they can't conglomerate all the data (results, MUs, popularity vs number of top players, gimmicks and strengths, etc) and "average it out" into tier positions for every single character in the game. Or all of the above together, even! In the end, no released tier list will ever please the community as a whole. The most verbal players will always come in the thread and start crying a storm about whatever they disagree with. however i also believe marth is too high, ICs shouldn't be in their own list, and ZSS should be higher

 

[Marc]

Can the tier list still possibly be tweaked, or do we have to wait a whole nother year with this as the official BBR tier list?

I know making an accurate tier list isn't easy, and that there will always be small things that seem "off", but for accuracy sake I can't conceive a character like Lucario being considered mid-tier. His MU spread is far too balanced. I understand that a few of the top tiers have slight advantages on him, but he goes damn near even or better against everyone else. Slight advantages barely make a difference.

I just don't see how Wario can make high tier but Lucario can't.

Please tell me if it's gonna be a whole nother year, so I atleast know not to make an argument about this so it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

I think you're a little too hung up on the fact that it says "upper mid tier". The real mid tier starts at Kirby, but the result of the voting is such that Lucario-Peach are more or less in bed together and it would be a stretch to say they're all high tier. Calling it borderline might make the intention clearer in regards to mid tier tournaments, but at the end of the day there was a clear gap between Wario and Lucario and that's not something that can be changed in any reasonable way. There is no reason to redo the voting and there probably won't be any to have the next tier list sooner either, so yes, it will be another year. Personally I think Lucario has some potential left, but he will need (more) high level representation to jump a tier and people are simply not voting him on the level of ZSS or Wario.

OK can i ask what incident prompted Marth to be promoted to 5th on the tier list please

Because I can't find any "incidents" that come close to justifying such a placement

Marth has been doing... fine. For years. Fine. Well. Okay. Good. I'm not sure how on earth you could consider his placements any better than ZSS' even without Apex. He is not top 5. European Marths are good but they have no competition. Leon doesn't do notably well out of region and Mr. R does well, but not as well as ZSS recently.

Since Apex, Salem has gotten 2nd and 3rd in a region dominated by the world's best Meta Knights. Honestly. I'm not really sure what it is that you want. The fact that ZSS isn't top tier and Marth is, is a joke. If a national win and 2nd-and-3rd placements at NY/NJ since the national win aren't good enough for top tier for ZSS but just kind of being pretty good + top 5 at the national zss won, is good enough for Marth, then I'm right and you're all crazy. There's no other possible explanation.

That's another question of "why did people vote the way they did?". As someone who did vote Marth at... 5th IIRC, I can give you my own reasoning. Marth has four mains doing well or even doing really well (Ramin, Mikeneko, Leon, MikeHaze) and this has been the case for a long time. Personally, I've always voted Marth relatively high, but that is to be expected if he wins almost everything on my continent since the dawn of Brawl and considering he has a very good matchup spread. What really hit it home though is that the best Marths also did really well at APEX, their like one shot a year to perform in the US. This puts him ahead of at least Snake and possibly Falco. Your question is mostly in relation to ZSS though, so I'll stick to that. People simply didn't vote her on the same level as the best characters. The reasoning I'm seeing a lot is that it's only one person who does/did (?) that well with her and it remains to be seen if it can be replicated. If Salem or anyone else pulls in more wins with her over the next year she can be expected to rise even further, but she did essentially jump tiers in that she's solidly out of Dedede's tier and into the "we can actually contend" realm. She has 7 losing matchups in v2 of the matchup chart, which puts her roughly on par with Wario overall, would you say those matchups have all changed? You feel she needs a major raise for one big win, but I think more consistency is required and theoretically she's not quite there either if almost all relevant matchups are slightly uphill.

MODS
MARC
BBR
HYLIAN

Would you please post up links to the previous tier lists on the OP so we can see the progression of the game? PLEASE!

Done.

 

[Shadocat]

I miss the first tier list. Where Bowser was mid tier, ROB, DDD, And G&W were top tier where ICs and Olimar werent, and Kirby and DK were high tier.

Good times............................

 

[Yink]

Whacky tier list. Thanks for linking me, Marc. *logs out for another 4 months*

 

[Jabejazz]

nice tier-list

,DDD [...] top tier

Good times............................

;_;7

Fear not, I'm sure a sequel will surface at some point. I'm like the herpes of this thread.

Screencapping everything as I type this.

 

[Tikao]

mainly because ness moved a spot upwards .... better than nothing

 

[hyoipear]

Good work. I dig this list.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

spacing (hitting with the tip of his hitboxes)

Eewwww that is such a small part of spacing I hate when people say that

 

[Kewkky]

Eewwww that is such a small part of spacing I hate when people say that

You want me to mention everything there is rather than just a small bit? if we break down everything, my post will be crazy long.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, but I wouldn't say Wario has bad spacing. He has poor range, and "okay" effective-range but spacing is just controlling the distance between you and your opponent in any given situation; zoning and footsies are a part of that, and everything overlaps a trillion times as well.

 

[CT Chia]

This image is an accurate representation of this tier list

 

[Kewkky]

No, but I wouldn't say Wario has bad spacing. He has poor range, and "okay" effective-range but spacing is just controlling the distance between you and your opponent in any given situation; zoning and footsies are a part of that, and everything overlaps a trillion times as well.

When people say "spacing your attacks", they mean 'hitting with the tip of your attacks so as to potentially avoid counterattacks". When they say "zoning" they mean "controlling a zone with attacks or presence so as to endanger the opponent as soon as he enters it". When people say "footsies" they mean "weaving in and out of your opponent's maximum range in order to bait them into persorming a punishable action". If SWF has created new definitions for these in the short amount of time I've been relatively inactive (I'm still in a deployment right now, in the middle of the ocean, with dial-up comparable internet), then that's on you guys for constantly changing definitions (and coming up with new terms for simple stuff as well).

Regardless of semantics, in the end, Wario's range sucks, which is what that poster was referring to.

 

[da K.I.D.]

How did everyone reading this thread not like the rap on the bottom of page 7? that ish was amazing.

 

[Jabejazz]

How did everyone reading this thread not like the rap on the bottom of page 7? that ish was amazing.

reading

Pretty sure the thread isn't about reading, but more about flinging **** at each other for disagreeing with the new tier list.
Also I can't read.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When people say "spacing your attacks", they mean 'hitting with the tip of your attacks so as to potentially avoid counterattacks". When they say "zoning" they mean "controlling a zone with attacks or presence so as to endanger the opponent as soon as he enters it". When people say "footsies" they mean "weaving in and out of your opponent's maximum range in order to bait them into persorming a punishable action". If SWF has created new definitions for these in the short amount of time I've been relatively inactive (I'm still in a deployment right now, in the middle of the ocean, with dial-up comparable internet), then that's on you guys for constantly changing definitions (and coming up with new terms for simple stuff as well).

Regardless of semantics, in the end, Wario's range sucks, which is what that poster was referring to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw

Spacing has referred to the way you place yourself since the dawn of time; hitting with the tip of your attacks is just (usually) a logical conclusion of that. If spacing was purely hitting with the tip of your attacks, then maximum range and spacing would be synonymous (they aren't).

How did everyone reading this thread not like the rap on the bottom of page 7? that ish was amazing.

True genius is never appreciate in its time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pretty sure the thread isn't about reading, but more about flinging **** at each other for disagreeing with the new tier list.
Also I can't read.

you only started posting like a couple months ago I think and youve already become one of my favorite people on this website.

 

[Linkshot]

I miss the first tier list. Where Bowser was mid tier, ROB, DDD, And G&W were top tier where ICs and Olimar werent, and Kirby and DK were high tier.

Good times............................

Don't forget that Zelda was high tier.

 

[Jabejazz]

you only started posting like a couple months ago I think and youve already become one of my favorite people on this website.

Shame though, I bring literally nothing to these threads. As opposed to say, Infinite, who's both witty and construct-

infiniteV115;14489393 said:

Dedede is just a worse version of Jigglypuff anyway.​

​

WHAT THE **** MAN.

 

[Diddy Kong]

and

only one sport appart? How come Diddy feels so much better than Marth then? I agree both are better than Snake however.

Ice Climbers being basically demi-Gods next to MetaKnight isn't too surprising though (but still extremely homosexual).

Good thing DK, Ness and Ike moved up a little to. And is Link now officially out of Hyrule tier?

 

[Dekillsage]

Despite ROB being an awful awful character, I'm glad ROB is actually above Peach. One of the few things I like seeing about ROB on here. He has more use in the metagame than Peach does for sure.

robs not a bad char

 

[The Legend of Henry]

I think there should be 2 tier lists. One that goes by character potential, and the other will go by which characters are considered the best by recent results or today's metagame.

 

[Juushichi]

never change, guys.

never change.

 

[Linkshot]

Character potential considering human limitations, I hope you mean, otherwise nobody would be top because we'd powershield and SDI everything.

 

[Dekillsage]

Character potential considering human limitations, I hope you mean, otherwise nobody would be top because we'd powershield and SDI everything.

Can't Sdi nado unless its the first hit of it.
MK OP

 

[Linkshot]

You can SDI while taking a shield hit, so you just powershield the first hit and warp to the other side of the stage.

 

[bubbaking]

Marc, you should have actually named Upper Mid Tier as Borderline Tier like you say you could have, not name it what you did, put DDD, Luke, and TL in it, and expect most of us to not be outraged. If you ask me though, you should have just made B Tier Upper High and C+ Tier Lower High or something.

However, I AM digging how all of Low Tier is just one big tier. Makes a bit more sense now, IMO, and it takes a little away from Ganon ending up as last.....again. In fact, all the tiers make sense. The only one that doesn't, you and I both know, is the very first line of Upper Mid Tier. Other than that, your tier list is pretty much great in my eyes.

 

[Dekillsage]

You can SDI while taking a shield hit, so you just powershield the first hit and warp to the other side of the stage.

Oh we're talking super ultimate sdi?

 

[clowsui]

So I put my current opinion a while ago, but here is what I voted:

Spoiler

S: Meta Knight
A: ICs, Olimar, Diddy, Pikachu
B: Falco, Marth, Snake, ZSS

C: King Dedede, Wario, Lucario, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit Fox
D: Game and Watch, Peach, R.O.B, Ike

E: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sheik, Ness, Sonic
F: Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas, Luigi

G: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon
H: Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf

I put Marth at 7th, though I think he could go as high as 5th (I think 5-7 are virtually interchangeable).

Here's my methodology/reasoning when it comes to tier list stuff. This was from a discussion about Peach.

(http://smashboards.com/threads/official-bbr-tier-list-v7.321738/page-197#post-15022793)

The tier list, over time, has gradually shifted over from "ideal play" to "a prediction of a character's potential". It's a mixed approach that makes the Smash community one of the best at making a tier list, imo. We create a "hypothesis" using our perceptions/knowledge of characters thus far and look at the data (tournament results). If it matches up with our hypothesis, then we set it aside (e.g metaknight, ICs). If it doesn't match up with our hypothesis, either because the hypothesis seems to overestimate or underestimate the success of the character, then we look at the reasons that there could be a disparity between the hypothesis and the data. I honestly think that this interpretation of the tier list should be the predominant one because then it gives room for discussion while preserving the integrity of the BBR if it makes a wildly unpopular tier list (i.e. there's no guessing why the list is bad, either the initial hypothesis was no good or the data was believed to be insufficient).

Let's apply this interpretation to a specific character: Marth. My hypothesis for Marth is that he is among the top 8 of the game. The other seven characters would be MK, Diddy, Snake, Olimar, Ice Climbers, Falco, and Pikachu. Thinking about his tools, this isn't too unreasonable. So what does the data say? The data shows that several Marth players have had success across the span of the metagame (time and location wise). Additionally, there have been enough results (bar Pikachu) to substantiate the other characters being in the top 8 also, and Marth's results are good enough relative to theirs to have him be up there. So having Marth in top 8 isn't really a problem, and further hypotheses made about Marth should work further proceeding from this conclusion.

Let's make another hypothesis now , then, to answer this question: where does Marth fit in the top 8?). I would say Marth belongs at the bottom of these 8 characters because while he has all of the tools to win, the fact that he requires such technical play and that his risk-reward is completely skewed for deviation from practical technical perfection makes him prone to inconsistency. Meanwhile the other seven characters do not face similar difficulties and have abusable characteristics. Watching players' matches, this seems like an adequate explanation for his lower placement on the tier list despite the variety of his tools, and we move on.

So why mention all this? Well look, Dark.Pch here has a very strong hypothesis for Peach and has the frame data to show the potential. But the results data does not match up. So then we ask a few questions. Are players playing in the way the hypothesis describes? Dark.Pch doesn't think so. Evaluating the play of higher level Peach players, it appears they selectively abide by parts of the hypothesis. OK, so why have we not seen something like "the complete Peach" as Dark.Pch describes?

One possible reason is, as Dark.Pch said, a lack of motivated players for Peach period/a lack of players with the correct mindset. Even if they are motivated and have a healthy competitive mindset, Peach players do not possess sufficient knowledge of the character (i.e. the "model" created by Dark.Pch). Dark.Pch weights this strongly in his evaluation, so the hypothesis should hold despite discrepancies in the data, and soon enough there will be results to substantiate the hypothesis. He might even advocate that Peach should therefore be ranked higher on good faith.

Thinking more with respect to the character, let's ignore the fact that Peach's counterpicking game is decently limited and instead focus on technicality. If we agree that technical precision is a part of the character's potential success, then just as we did with Marth, we have to evaluate just how much technical precision affects Peach. Our answers to the different questions posed in this part of the evaluation could help support or detract from Dark.Pch's hypothesis (and subsequent counterargument against the data discrepancy).
1. Given that she has to be technically consistent, to what extent does she have to be consistent? I.e. how often? Based on the model described, the answer seems to be "most of the match".
2. What happens when Peach is technically insufficient? Most of the time, she seems to be fairly easy to punish based on the model described. These punishments result in disadvantageous positions for a variety of matchups (as opposed to a reset to neutral).
2a. When she is put in bad positions, does she have the tools to return herself to neutral? I would say that she has a hard time doing so. Trapping Peach seems decently easy to do and to continue in ledge, juggle + oki scenarios. Edgeguarding not so much due to float.
3. If Peach is sufficiently technical, just how "hard" does she hit? Based on the model described, she seems to get strong mixup. That's pretty good, but there's quite a few characters that have guaranteed damage in a lot of scenarios if they don't mess up.

In other words, Peach not only needs to be precise but also gets ****ed up for a long time when she messes up, and doesn't hit hard enough when she is set up. I think that using this as a reason to explain her lack of success allows us to successfully justify her lower tier position despite the potential truth of Dark.Pch's model. That is, just as how Marth has all the tools but is placed lower than characters with similar amounts of tools (Diddy, MK) due to poor risk/reward, so follows Peach (in addition to other characteristics I ignored for the simplicity of argument). Peach might not have the qualified players, but even the most qualified players will mess up enough to show Peach's clear flaw(s) that occur as a result of messing up.

 

[Dekillsage]

Damn you clowsui for this wall of text I will be reading eventually.

 

[clowsui]

I'm pretty proud of it. It's the best post I've ever made. Out of the people here I think the only person who has read it before is KIDgoggles and he'll attest to its current relevance also.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so let me get this straight, people are for the most part agreeing on the positioning of the ddd toon link area of the list. You all say thats where the characters should be. But everyone is getting up at arms because instead of calling it lower high tier or almost high tier or better-than-mid-tier-but-still-worse-than-high-tier tier, They called it upper mid tier. And you really think that thats a valid cause to get upset, even though you agree that the characters themselves are in the right position and the tier line is in the right place?

A rose by any other name, would it still smell as sweet?

EDIT @ clow, the first G in KIDGoggles is also capitalized. Please and thank you.
also, the only thing that giant wall doesnt answer is where does that leave Peach/Marth now. How do we judge them based on the combination of future possible knowledge and current concrete knowledge?

 

[Xyro77]

i think my biggest issue is that "mid tier" is divided up into 3 tiers and that high tier only has 3 characters lol. so when you have a "mid tier" tournament, you are telling all the lucas/luigi/rob/wolf...ect players that they get to play with all the DDD/GW/LUCARIO players. Its like having a low tier tournament (mario/link/bowser...ect) and allowing falco to play. It completely negates the reason for mid tier events and thus you will see a mass amounts of DDD/GW/LUCARIO. oh and think about mid tier teams tournaments for a sec........GW+LUCARIO.........anubis and buckets in MID TIER. F THAT


The order of the chars i can deal with. its just the extra tiers that were made makes things really bad for TO and the over all list as well.