Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dekillsage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G41X9R17YIc

 

[SoulJoker]

If he had something that could be considered a viable option to kill or deal any type of damage that wasn't slow as **** he might deserve the spot he is at.
Every kill option is so slow and easily read, u-tilt being the best option which is still slow and easily shielded, dodged, or interrupted imo.

As NickRiddle said his jumps are slow which means he is screwed if anyone approaches him while he his up there. To do anything he is covering himself by throwing the slow boomerang at the ground and pulling a bomb. All of this while just floating there. The camp gain is a pain but if he can't kill, the damage doesn't mean much.

He can run away and deal mediocre damage (most of which can be avoided) and nothing else imo.

 

[SoulJoker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G41X9R17YIc

Great example

 

[Jabejazz]

Great example

"If you are not hype for Playstation All-Stars, you are lying to yourself..."

 

[SoulJoker]

"If you are not hype for Playstation All-Stars, you are lying to yourself..."

We all are. We all are.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G41X9R17YIc

I like it.
TINK sucks now.

"If you are not hype for Playstation All-Stars, you are lying to yourself..."

Hahaha, lol. Fresh Prince for the win.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Isn't Lucario a problem for D3 because of his crazy range? Guess I was wrong..



So since almost everyone here agrees that TL sucks, will we see a change in his position or is the BBR going to leave him where he is?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Isn't Lucario a problem for D3 because of his crazy range? Guess I was wrong..



So since almost everyone here agrees that TL sucks, will we see a change in his position or is the BBR going to leave him where he is?

yeah, it's already been confirmed that Tier List v9 will have

Jigglypuff > Captain Falcon > Link > Zelda > Toon Link > Fox

As the lowest tier grouping.

 

[Dre89]

If he had something that could be considered a viable option to kill or deal any type of damage that wasn't slow as **** he might deserve the spot he is at.
Every kill option is so slow and easily read, u-tilt being the best option which is still slow and easily shielded, dodged, or interrupted imo.

As NickRiddle said his jumps are slow which means he is screwed if anyone approaches him while he his up there. To do anything he is covering himself by throwing the slow boomerang at the ground and pulling a bomb. All of this while just floating there. The camp gain is a pain but if he can't kill, the damage doesn't mean much.

He can run away and deal mediocre damage (most of which can be avoided) and nothing else imo.

He doesn't have great KO moves, but often he can KO with a refreshed bair or nair after camping them to high percents.

The fact he has to camp for so long which low damage output probably makes him more mentally stressful to play as than a lot if other characters.

 

[SoulJoker]

He doesn't have great KO moves, but often he can KO with a refreshed bair or nair after camping them to high percents.

The fact he has to camp for so long which low damage output probably makes him more mentally stressful to play as than a lot if other characters.

With those being his 2 fastest kills moves and really his only physicals that will actually allow for him to not get punished in the way any other move will is horrible. His physical damage moves that don't suck are also his only 2 kill moves that are truly viable.

 

[Shaya]

The thing I love about armor pieces is that Marth is a clone of zero suit's item/glide toss data (well arguably the other way around ) and also comes with forward air.
Hence why the match up is +50 Marth against ZSS first stock.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

So Marth can do the same thing and outplay her in her own game? Awesome.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

yeah, it's already been confirmed that Tier List v9 will have

Jigglypuff > Captain Falcon > Link > Zelda > Toon Link > Fox

As the lowest tier grouping.

Why must you people taunt me like this why?????
I argue that Fox is above TL while they're in mid-tier and you drop them to bottom tier and TL's STILL above him?
As if four Fox's in bracket aren't enough to prove Fox is better?
You guys deserve to get ganged up on by a bunch of TL's in your sleep...ones that don't suck if those exist...

 

[Dekillsage]

Isn't Lucario a problem for D3 because of his crazy range? Guess I was wrong..



So since almost everyone here agrees that TL sucks, will we see a change in his position or is the BBR going to leave him where he is?

D3 doesn't have trouble grabbing lucario sadly. It's also a problem that ddd can buffer usmash lucario after d-throw and bair pretty much covers lucarios recovery for free. Think Snake vs D3 only DDD is actually the person who wins at neutral.

The thing I love about armor pieces is that Marth is a clone of zero suit's item/glide toss data (well arguably the other way around ) and also comes with forward air.
Hence why the match up is +50 Marth against ZSS first stock.

Oh.

 

[SoulJoker]

The thing I love about armor pieces is that Marth is a clone of zero suit's item/glide toss data (well arguably the other way around ) and also comes with forward air.
Hence why the match up is +50 Marth against ZSS first stock.

It does make for a great team though.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Think Snake vs D3 only DDD is actually the person who wins at neutral.

I think Snake wins at neutral because his neutral game is throwing grenades and escaping with DACUS to reset back to it. It's the main reason why this MU isn't auto-lose for Snake, because he has a good keep-away game. Same against ICs. DDD's adavantage game against Snake can actually be hard to bring back once he CGs him off-stage.

 

[Dekillsage]

I think Snake wins at neutral because his neutral game is throwing grenades and escaping with DACUS to reset back to it. It's the main reason why this MU isn't auto-lose for Snake, because he has a good keep-away game. Same against ICs. DDD's adavantage game against Snake can actually be hard to bring back once he CGs him off-stage.

We've already talked about this
My point was ddd does to lucario what he does to snake only in the lucario vs ddd match up ddd wins at neutral a lot easier.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Oh, ok.
By the way, do tier lists NEED to be waited a long period of time before they get edited, or is it possible they will fix it with the 9001 arguements of how DDD shouldn't be Mid tier?

 

[Shaya]

As of now, we've never done a tier list X.1. Although we used to always do Version X.0 in titles and whatnot haha.

Yes there's 9001 arguments for why Dedede shouldn't be mid tier.
Then there's one relatively concise argument for why he would be "mid tier" based on MATHS and VOTING DATA.
Remember, that most of the 'issue' is wording problems. The guy did not lose any placements in terms of ranking between this tier list and the last one

 

[ShadowLink84]

What? When marth lands a move he can continue to push his advantage. ToonLink can't do that when he's fullscreen throwing stuff because there's nothing else he can do.

You do realize you just compared a situation in which Marth has landed a hit, to a situation where Toonlink is full screen throwing projectiles.
A more accurate presentation is Sonic vs Marth, where Marth has issues landing a hit, but Sonic cannot get in.
It is one of the most boring matchups in the game to play.
Doesn't mean Marth isn't high tier.
In fact that situation happens pretty often in matchups that are to his advantage since he isn't like MK with an insane offensive game.

 

[Shaya]

I think Marth has an insane offensive game.

 

[Karnu]

I still think Lucario in mid tier is complete BS.

Lucas should be above Luigi and PT as well.

Was the BBR high when they updated it?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The thing I love about armor pieces is that Marth is a clone of zero suit's item/glide toss data (well arguably the other way around ) and also comes with forward air.
Hence why the match up is +50 Marth against ZSS first stock.

ZSS arguably beats Marth

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

ZSS arguably beats Marth

Every character arguably beats every other character.

That doesn't mean the arguments are valid.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think Marth has an insane offensive game.

That were true he'd be Metaknight. OH YEAH!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Every character arguably beats every other character.

That doesn't mean the arguments are valid.

Salem vs. MikeHaze
Salem vs. Mikeneko
Salem vs. Mr. R
Japanese Zero Suits vs. Mikeneko

vs.

Mr. R and Leon vs. Quik

Marth has trouble keeping momentum on Zero Suit, and can't really gimp her. Although he can pressure and trap her off-stage, he won't often land the kill that way. That means he has to either build 150% and kill with a non-kill move that can kind of kill like fair, or commit to something laggy to kill her. There's nothing ZSS loves more in the world than a character who has to commit to kill her, for obvious reasons. He can space her and has a solid advantage in neutral positions, but ZSS' raw ground speed and uair out of shield are disgustingly good against Marth's approaches and ZSS really controls him when she lands a single hit. Suit pieces kind of destroy Marth too, contrary to whatever garbage Shaya was spouting and Paralyzer is very, very good at keeping Marth out and trapping him compared to other members of the cast.

The only area in which Marth has an advantage is at the neutral position. That's really important but I don't really think it outweighs all of ZSS' advantages in the match-up.

 

[Shaya]

Marth can't really gimp zero suit?
sighhhhhhhh

Other than that, yeah, I can see your logic/argument for it being ZSS advantage. Well, except all of your points of theory rather than results (I disagree with nearly all the theory you just stated).
I'll just tout my amazing confidence in the match up coupled with nickriddle being too scared to even play me.

I'm back in the states in 2 months. I'm going to annihilate zero suits and donkey kongs as a past time. And Wolf.

 

[Osennecho]

Quik is also doing better in the matchup as of late. I do disagree with ZSS having the advantage though. IMO it is an even matchup.

 

[Tesh]

ZSS probably gimps Marth easier than Marth gimps ZSS.

 

[Shaya]

Look, it could be ZSS advantage.
On a move vs move basis, I could say that I'm comfortable enough with neutral air to beat everything ZSS has bar dtilt, why isn't anyone else that comfortable with nair? Who knows. It's also a point to consider how at higher levels nair is a lot harder to use as abusively (due to power shields), but I'm not dealing with power shields if I'm talking about beating zero suit's Side B and down smash on reaction and spacing to be safe against dash uair or bair/fair.
Otherwise though, a lot of her moves intrinsically "win" (but if we were to make that match up comparison point standard, then she'd be winning nearly every MU).
How would Marth do jabbing these paralyzer set ups (as in, I think a lot of players 'fear' paralyzer like it's a spacey's laser although it most definitely isn't). How confident are people at footstool jumping out of zero suits uair? Do people even try this? (The answer is no, by the way). How does Marth best capitalise with edge guarding zero suit when considering her tether drop mix ups, down b and paralyzer? How marths tend to edgeguard right now is not so "easy" against ZSS (but there's probably better alternatives that will make the edge a death trap for her) [stuff like nair first hit clashing with paralyzer and hitting zero suit if she tries to get back onto the stage rather than re-ledge snap]. ZSS's ledge guarding against Marth has also gotten better as of late, what are our better options of dealing with this (b-reverse counter from a ledge drop? yeah maybe). Dumb things like shield breaker outranging dsmash could be applicable. But still, pretty mediocre options compared to full hop fair pre100% level of safety, but potentially workable.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I just realized one of my CRT tvs has been turned on for like a week

 

[Matgic]

No, they arent, dunno why they have their own tier. Theyre really good, and probably #2, but putting them in their own tier implies they are an undeniable #2, and even in MK banned tournaments they arent anywhere near dominant enough to be considered an indisputable #2.

It's tricky because of the chain grab. As long as the matchup is played well, they shouldn't have their own tier. One mistake can mean a stock though, and they can sometimes challenge MK

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS probably gimps Marth easier than Marth gimps ZSS.

Lmao god no.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's back air is so good.
That it hits Zero Suit while she is invincible.
Actually does hit her while she's invincible.
Its just she doesn't know it yet.
However, the game knows.
The game knows by putting Marth into hit lag and suddenly making his bair stay out for 20 frames.
The game informs zero suit by her coming out of invincibility (and not being able to auto footstool or beat it with an attack) by getting hit, and not having a down b any more to recover with.

*dolphin slash regrabs the ledge 8 frames after letting go of it then does a get up attack just as zero suit does up b.* on reaction fellas.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falchion, cutter of invincibility.

 

[| Big D |]

But can it see why kid love cinnamon toast crunch?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Marth's back air is so good.
That it hits Zero Suit while she is invincible.
Actually does hit her while she's invincible.
Its just she doesn't know it yet.
However, the game knows.
The game knows by putting Marth into hit lag and suddenly making his bair stay out for 20 frames.
The game informs zero suit by her coming out of invincibility (and not being able to auto footstool or beat it with an attack) by getting hit, and not having a down b any more to recover with.

*dolphin slash regrabs the ledge 8 frames after letting go of it then does a get up attack just as zero suit does up b.* on reaction fellas.

And here I thought I said weird stuff.

 

[Shaya]

I've said the same thing multiple times in different ways over the course of millennia.

 

[Jamwa]

This is crazy.
Lucas should not be in Lower Middle tier.
He should be in Magic tier.
please just give him something..

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zero Suit Samus beating Marth? Maybe.
Both being close to Diddy? NO WAY.