Official SWF Tier List v8

[NickRiddle]

Marth can't really gimp zero suit?
sighhhhhhhh

Other than that, yeah, I can see your logic/argument for it being ZSS advantage. Well, except all of your points of theory rather than results (I disagree with nearly all the theory you just stated).
I'll just tout my amazing confidence in the match up coupled with nickriddle being too scared to even play me.

I'm back in the states in 2 months. I'm going to annihilate zero suits and donkey kongs as a past time. And Wolf.

Where're you going to be? SKTAR/WHOBO?
I'd love you fivever.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nick Riddle's best talent: voicing Djinni in Golden Sun.

 

[NickRiddle]

Oh goodness.
That was terrible.

Wait... why do you know that?

 

[Diddy Kong]

.

 

[Luco]

Sonic and Yoshi have both had a lot of good representation. Good players, bad character. Toon Link is the same.

@Snake
If you can count the timer on both grenades then you'd still only end up being able to powershield one at some point. There are other ways to avoid grenades though, such as spotdodging the explosion or spotdodging a hard tossed grenade.

If they have good rep, you assume they have potential until they stop having good rep. Then you either say 'well all the top players left but this character is good by its own merits' or you say 'this character can't survive the current meta game'.

Now obviously with that argument, I will admit you can say that my own argument works against myself - but I personally believe TL has decent tools and can be considered on par with DDD and Lucario. IMO, that is. I would like to see TL get a foothold back up there with results and I don't know why...

... On thought maybe I like the idea of TL being Hyrule's only hope in this game.

 

[Player-1]

Edgeguarding I'd give to marth, but gimping I'd give to ZSS

 

[Ishiey]

I'm back in the states in 2 months. I'm going to annihilate zero suits and donkey kongs as a past time. And Wolf.

If you go to a Cali tournament, I'd like to see your interpretation of "annihilating" my main unfortunately I won't be around for SKTAR this year either, but I might fly back just for the sake of bodying Marth mains that think they know how to fight Wolf.

Except for Ramin. Because I'm pretty sure he actually knows.

 

[Osennecho]

Edgeguarding I'd give to marth, but gimping I'd give to ZSS

I have to agree with this. ZSS is better at the actual gimping process in the matchup but far worse at actually edgegaurding.

 

[Dekillsage]

How does zss gimp marth? How does any non-mk character gimp marth???

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS doesn't gimp Marth unless the Marth makes a terrible mistake. Marth can't gimp her that well either but comparitively he does it much better than vice versa.

 

[hyoipear]

How does any non-mk character gimp marth???

Kirby gimps Marth, baby.

 

[RODO]

I wish people actually gave a **** about low tier so that it could change eventually. If Samus could even just get to E I'd be a happy camper.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pun intended?

 

[Player-1]

How does zss gimp marth? How does any non-mk character gimp marth???

hit him out of his midair jump

 

[RODO]

How does zss gimp marth? How does any non-mk character gimp marth???

Zair with samus

 

[-LzR-]

How does zss gimp marth? How does any non-mk character gimp marth???

Hit him with a move and laugh as he attempts to recover with his pathetic upB.

 

[pidgezero_one]

captain falcon something something

 

[Dekillsage]

I can't tell if all you guys are on the same drugs or if Marth sucks.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

captain falcon something something

something something knee of justice

 

[SoulJoker]

If they have good rep, you assume they have potential until they stop having good rep. Then you either say 'well all the top players left but this character is good by its own merits' or you say 'this character can't survive the current meta game'.

Now obviously with that argument, I will admit you can say that my own argument works against myself - but I personally believe TL has decent tools and can be considered on par with DDD and Lucario. IMO, that is. I would like to see TL get a foothold back up there with results and I don't know why...

I agree his tools are decent (literally bombs, boomerang, arrows, and hookshot) he just has no way to back those tools up.

... On thought maybe I like the idea of TL being Hyrule's only hope in this game.

Unfortunately he is Hyrule's only chance.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I agree his tools are decent (literally bombs, boomerang, arrows, and hookshot) he just has no way to back those tools up.



Unfortunately he is Hyrule's only chance.

His arrows suck.

 

[SoulJoker]

His arrows suck.

Kind of just talking about them in total not just the arrows alone. Anyone of them alone are mediocre, but as a total they decent (barely).

 

[BlueXenon]

I like this tier list

I think it's slightly absurd that he's mid tier, but I think this is a problem with how they separated the gaps rather than a problem with the tier list itself.

Had it been sorted like this:

Top:
S: Meta Knight
A: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Marth, Snake, Falco

High:
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Lucario, King Dedede

Mid:
C: Toon Link, Wolf, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, R.O.B., Peach
D: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi

Low:
E: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
F: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon

Bottom
G:Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

The community would have been less... umm... unhappy with it.

 

[FourStar]

I like this tier list

I still think Snake is better than marth even though i like using marth. but i like the last tier list as far as the top and high part of the tier list goes.the only thing i agree with here is ZSS move up

 

[Dre89]

Bowser should be bottom tier.

Assuming perfect, physically possible-but unrealistic tech skill, he'd be at least high tier because he can theoretically infinite like the entire cast on flat stages.

Assuming reality, he's easily bottom. He has a linear recovery and approach options, and can't force anyone to approach him in return except like Ganondorf.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

2 wifi players who have been to 1 and 0 tournaments respectively are not representative of the entire Brawl scene XD

Majority of people in the Brawl scene are preeeeetty stupid, just saying.
Like your opinions on game design that make kittens eat babies.

 

[Dre89]

Majority of people in the Brawl scene are preeeeetty stupid, just saying.
Like your opinions on game design that make kittens eat babies.

The Brawl scene gets a reputation for being stupid from people who post as if they know about competitive play when they're bad players (like me), and from people who insult others on the net over a video game (like you). So you're really not that different.

But yeah, Bowser should be bottom tier in my unqualified opinion.

 

[Luco]

How does zss gimp marth? How does any non-mk character gimp marth???

PKT or tether or something, I dunno.

Pretty much the only reason PK kids vs. Marth is -3 and not -4 is because we can actually do stuff to him off-stage.

Marth isn't 'bad' offstage, in fact he's rather good. But not as good as some IMO.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The Brawl scene gets a reputation for being stupid from people who post as if they know about competitive play when they're bad players (like me), and from people who insult others on the net over a video game (like you). So you're really not that different.

But yeah, Bowser should be bottom tier in my unqualified opinion.

You were not insulted over anything related to a video game, and if you thought that at all even less reason you should be in a group with "debater" in its name. I was insulting your inability to form a coherent argument that doesn't defeat itself when interpreted by anyone with basic reasoning ability.


Ganondorf can "gimp" Marth, the hitbox on DAir beats out Dolphin Slash.

Marth is definitely top tier though, even if his recovery is weak - which it only is if we're using Metaknight as the standard of recovery - he has an incredibly strong spacing and poke game on-stage, and ample kill power.

 

[Dre89]

You were not insulted over anything related to a video game, and if you thought that at all even less reason you should be in a group with "debater" in its name. I was insulting your inability to form a coherent argument that doesn't defeat itself when interpreted by anyone with basic reasoning ability..

Well I wasn't talking just about me, just your attitude in general in this thread.

Also, if you're going to be throwing around insults about argumentation, at least know what you're talking about. An argument that defeats itself is a self-contradicting statement or series of premises that contradict themselves.

Saying 'mid tier tourneys should have no impact on the tier list' is in no way a self-contradicting statement, even if the reasoning is poor. Even if I had said 'D3 is a mid tier character' that would not have been a self-contradictory statement. Saying 'D# is mid tier in terms of viability, but is more viable than high tier character' is self-defeating, because the second premise defeats the first one.

Thinking someone has poor reasoning is different to them making statements that defeat themselves. You should really learn this if you're going to call other people stupid. Also your second sentence doesn't make sense if we want to get technical.

Normally I would never nitpick someone like this, but you brought it upon yourself by insulting people unprovoked and criticising someone else's ability to formulate and argument.

And whilst you're at it is, please point out what is so incoherent and self-defeating about saying that a character's ability in mid tier tourneys should have no impact on his tier of viability in standard tourneys.

 

[-LzR-]

With this issue about midtier tournaments being screwed with a lot of midtiers around... Since when have people played Midtier tournaments? O_o

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

With this issue about midtier tournaments being screwed with a lot of midtiers around... Since when have people played Midtier tournaments? O_o

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Whobo

and

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Nowhere else.

And Xyro already said he's sticking with V7

Therefore this discussion is pointless.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yo, my boy Dre out here like, "I was given the debater title for a reason, let me show you what that reason is" and just went in. I hope Bowser the Train has a somewhat decent rebuttal for the exposure that he just experienced.

 

[Jabejazz]

Yo, my boy Dre out here like, "I was given the debater title for a reason, let me show you what that reason is" and just went in. I hope Bowser the Train has a somewhat decent rebuttal for the exposure that he just experienced.

inb4 Your mom.

 

[Luco]

I'm going to agree with the consensus here Bowser - you're always saying 'that anybody with half a brain could comprehend/realise' or whatever else but I find tbh... it's not so obvious. And it's not like i'm dumb or anything either. Even if I was, the fact that multiple people are saying the same thing kinda says that I can't be totally off point. And I mean, as far as I can see you're confusing what 'stupid' is in relevance to context. If the smash community has a reputation of being 'stupid' (one of which i've actually never heard of but I don't network quite as extensively so I can concede on that), it seems to me to be that it would be pertaining to matters of Brawl (i.e. game info such as frame data and inexperience when talking about match-ups and the like...) however you seem to think from countless comments i've seen that being 'stupid' (in truth i'd say it's more like ignorance or being unaware) in that regard equates to being 'stupid' generally.... which is not the case. I just mean, I want you to clarify exactly what you mean when you're saying that.

In this particular conversation, I have to agree with Dre in that I don't see the contradiction in his statements. Obviously you have a certain connotation that you're trying to get across (if i'm not mistaken, the fact that you don't believe DDD is mid tier material - which is totally reasonable btw) but if we're going to actually, seriously get technical, implying that the community is stupid for not seeing and agreeing with this statement before going on to make their posts on the subject of mid tier tournies is incredibly flawed, mainly because the internet is famous for being a place where 'simple' connotations get mixed up with others - and even then, whilst I do believe that there are few people who believe DDD to be a proper mid tier, I do concede that there are a range of opinions and all are reasonably valid IMO.

EVEN THIS is something I could have totally misconstrued or taken out of context - granted I am incredibly tired as I write this anyway - so if that is indeed the case then I will retract the 2 cents i'm putting in here with very little, if any, complaint. But from a long while of reading your posts, I must admit that the 'vibe' I get from you is one of being condescending of the community for not meeting these expectations you have, which I believe to be somewhat unrealistic/unreasonable when you consider the setting we're in.

So, I dunno, take me down and slaughter me if i'm wrong and i'm fine to be proven wrong... I would just like to get stuff cleared up a little more and throw in my thoughts as to some of the posts you've been making of late.

I did consider not posting at all but... better honesty than fake courtesy, yes? Better to ask the question than to almost guarantee it unanswered yea?

 

[Karnu]

This debate between Dre and Bowser the train needs theme music

 

[FourStar]

You were not insulted over anything related to a video game, and if you thought that at all even less reason you should be in a group with "debater" in its name. I was insulting your inability to form a coherent argument that doesn't defeat itself when interpreted by anyone with basic reasoning ability.


Ganondorf can "gimp" Marth, the hitbox on DAir beats out Dolphin Slash.

Marth is definitely top tier though, even if his recovery is weak - which it only is if we're using Metaknight as the standard of recovery - he has an incredibly strong spacing and poke game on-stage, and ample kill power.

I totally agree with you. How do you feel about falco though?

 

[Crackle]

I'm fine with this tier list. The difference between SS and S and A+ and A- is arguable but imo all that matters is that marth/falco/snake/etc. are usable as high tiers for competition.
Also, now Snakes can finally say (though Snake is still assumed to be better than Falco) that they earned their spot in the tier list that they've been fighting for in the character boards.

 

[Dekillsage]

I totally agree with you. How do you feel about falco though?

Falco is godlike and don't let anyone tell you otherwise -_^b

 

[infiniteV115]

Majority of people in the Brawl scene are preeeeetty stupid, just saying.
Like your opinions on game design that make kittens eat babies.

Yeah, if you could go ahead and explain the latter portion, that would be great.