Official SWF Tier List v8

[1PokeMastr]

Air releasing Mk to Dacus is easy with Sheik.
Just half buffer it, and charged it for a moment.

Dash -> C-Stick Down -> C-Stick Up -> A -> done.

So easy.

 

[Tesh]

you dont even have to buffer it, it works if you just dash, wait and then uncharged DACUS

it doesn't actually kill until like 120+ though, you can DI down into the weaker hit (Which means you will take 32+damage) and survive alot longer as it kills off the sides at that part.

 

[Dekillsage]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think it's flat-out too easy to trade with Sheik. Her hitboxes and range kind of suck and it's often really easy to say "oh, I took 10% from sheik, np I'll just do like 7% back and I win because Sheik kills at 900%."

Sheik has incredible mobility and movement options, as well as fast normals and I think Sheik is best-served trying to outplay her opponents using these choices. Dealing damage where she can and avoiding return damage is incredibly important to Sheik because her leads are so fragile. Mobility is really one of the best strengths you can have in brawl, and Sheik can totally abuse that and win games.

Ultimately I think the fact that any damage dealt to Sheik is so devastating hurts Sheik too much to be anything more than mid tier, but her mobility options give her the ability to outplay almost any match-up that isn't an autoloss, so she can be competitive when the stars align and nothing too unfortunate happens.

Trading I am sure if its worth too much consideration. The only time it seems relevant is on her Bair/Nair since she has practically no disjoint on those moves whatsoever. Her other ground moves like jab/ftilt have more appropriate disjoint, but as you said they just lack range and priority (low percentage). Sheik is primarily just going to rely upon hitting people before they can make an option such as coming in with nair plane to disrupt the start-up of a move. Or hit after someone has made a commitment like jabbing the tail end of a spot dodge. If your timing is right on the ground along with your spacing, then trades shouldn't happen much. Its only in the air where she clearly has no disjoint on her moves (fair is good though lol) that trading is far more likely to happen.

The thing that seems more debilitating to her as a character is once hit she doesn't have many good options at getting back down. As already stated she lacks disjoint on aerials and ff air dodge isn't for everything. And a sheik without an 2nd jump may as well be dead if she has to UpB. Either by not grabbing the ledge or being KO'd off the ending lag.

Marth has solid basic traits but lacks any sort of surprise factor. It's like, yeah there's fair zoning and side-b punishes but his mix-ups are all gimmicks. His gimmicks don't deal enough damage that you really care, either. Solid basic defense and punishes work wonders against Marth.

Surprise factor? What! What!? When is having any sort of surprise factor relevant at being a good character? Having to rely upon that sort of thing is akin to bad playing as opposed to your guaranteed selections or characters who lack strong options and have to rely upon out playing the opponent. Marth is just going to cut off your options and not let you have anything to work with and that's about as high tier as it gets.

 

[DeLux]

Surprise factor? What! What!? When is having any sort of surprise factor relevant at being a good character? Having to rely upon that sort of thing is akin to bad playing as opposed to your guaranteed selections or characters who lack strong options and have to rely upon out playing the opponent. Marth is just going to cut off your options and not let you have anything to work with and that's about as high tier as it gets.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't' think they deserve there.

 

[Matgic]

To be completely honest, even though Ganon sucks, I personally don't think he is the worst. I don't think Japan has him as the worst. Bottom tier? Sure. I just think he is better than last.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Then name a match up Ganon wins.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Ganondorf.

 

[Ghostbone]

Snake too

 

[Osennecho]

Snake too

Falco too. So many DACUS kills by Falcos... Aside from guaranteed.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Bored, like debates and also just have so much fun correcting so much false info on my character.

I think most of you are still over-estimating Peach. I'm not saying Sonic is good, but Peach is going to have a much, much harder time placing.

Sonic's kill power is bad and his match-ups could be better, but his mobility alone is >>>> anything Peach. Sonic can use his good traits to outplay people. All Peach has is what she has. Peach is basically ganon with shield pressure and a bad projectile.


Peach has match-ups she can never, ever win unless she's controlled by a much much better player. Sonic doesn't have any match-ups like that, save for arguably Lucario.

How is peach gonna have a much harder time placing when she first off has better match ups then sonic? explain this to me.

You still think kill power is everything? is that all people in this community care about? Why is it that I often have the lead against good players? You act like I have to kill you right away. Kill power means nothing to this character. That's right I just said that. You assume that I actually have to kill you right away. I don't As long as I get my damage and I don't take hits playing safe, you will die before me. I have played Will many times. Peach vs DK. And I usually have a stock lead at mid%. And while me may die at 180-230% (this is reduce alot depending on stage position and what I hit him with, but I am pretty sure you took that into account right?) safe pressure, stage position, zoning and control, DK is not easily landing hits on me. Falco can't kill unless he gets a fsmash read or an off stage kill. meta knight does not get early kills unless he has someone off stage. If one stays center stage on MK and he throws out attacks, he is not finishing anyone early. Diddy can't kill. He has to use naner set ups to get so much damage and finish the enemy. And don't even bring up his Fsmash. it's not reliable and can be smash DI.

Sonic mobility> anything peach does? Please tell me more. tell me more about these good traits. Cause I am here right now with a few others who saw this and we are seriously laughing our asses off.

For your match up statement. Until you learn what Peach can and can't do in these so called match ups, I not say stuff like this as a fact. if you think of it as your opinion, then ok. But this sounds like it is set in stone. Unless you are actually gonna do some research and ask question, just don't speak. Cause to be honest with you, you sound hella dumb. And I know you are not stupid.

Nope. they're both linear, terrible at killing, and easily camped out, but Peach has a ton of pressure when she gets inside. I mean, that's all she has, but it's something. She also has better match-ups than Ganon, even though her chart is optimistic at best IMO. She beats Wario and probably a few other good characters which is something other bad-ish characters can't claim.

Peach is IMO low-mid tier, probably the worst or second-worst character in mid tier.

I get camped out by no one unless its some typical ledge BS which the rules set me free from. Go ahead and try me. Tell me just how I get camped out by said situation. And I'll correct you easily.

And the fact that you compared peach to ganon. I am starting to think I give you a lil to much credit then you actually deserve. I try not to be mean to people, but sometimes you just sat the most insane things

Her so-called shield pressure is overrated and only actually comes into play if the opponent is sitting in his shield while Peach floats towards him. And that's more a question of shield being a bad choice in such a situation, rather than Peach being naturally good at forcing such a scenario.

Now from this I have gathered that.

- You don't know how Peach can force a block in many ways.
- You seriously think her shield pressure is just floating to dairs

Now I don't wanna sit here and assume anything. So feel free to correct me on this info that i gathered from your post. And explain to me the few ways peach can shield pressure. And reason for said pressure.

I'm gonna try to be as formal as I can with this. Though I get the feel while I try to be calm and cool with this, people are gonna come out being dumb and try to sound funny with showing off on the internets. Cheap and weak lol's must mean the world to people huh if it makes them think they are funny. Well, only one way to find out.

 

[Delta-cod]

I mean, you can say that kill power doesn't matter. But what happens when someone kills you and they're a stock up only at 100%? Good luck making up that loss.

 

[xDD-Master]

Ganondorf isn't exactly better. But Ganondorf has this suprising factor and is scary as ****, sometimes. That's why he is kinda better than the rest. I personally would prefer to run into most other Low-Tiers, instead of Ganondorf. Because vs Ganondorf, one tiny mistake can be crucial. On the other hand, it's way easier to play safe vs Ganondorf than vs. everyone else.

So idk, all ganondorf needs is some good mindgames, to throw you off, and once he got those, you can be pretty mind****ed, which only makes dorf even better! But whatever, he still sucks, just camp and react! x)

 

[Dark.Pch]

I mean, you can say that kill power doesn't matter. But what happens when someone kills you and they're a stock up only at 100%? Good luck making up that loss.

I have done this many times. I don't sit here and say things like this based on low level play. Just to make this clear here and now.

 

[Tesh]

Sonic and Peach are both so bad its hard to measure how unwinnable matchups are.

Results tho, Sonic has it, Peach....not so much.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't care too much for results and let it show just what a character can really do.

 

[Tesh]

In theory, no one can catch Sonic so he could just time everyone out all the time.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Do you know the proper way to deal with fast characters or those with good air mobility?

 

[Espy Rose]

Can you direct me to a player that does? I'm clueless.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yay we're talking about peach and sonic again

 

[Dark.Pch]

Can you direct me to a player that does? I'm clueless.

I do. but coming from you, I am not sure I can have a cool chat with you without being a joker as usual. Which is why i don't really like talking to you. Though I am willing to change my mind on that, which i hope I don't regret.

 

[Delta-cod]

I mean, people make characters with bad kill power suffer when they get a stock lead on those characters. Even as friggin' Yoshi I can make Falco sweat a little if I happen to get a stock lead.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Everytime Sonic and Peach comes up I contemplate eating a baby.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I assume that would take care of your child support problems?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I assume that would take care of your child support problems?

Not married and I don't have kids either.
So not sure where you are going with Peach.

 

[Dark.Pch]

it was a j-

You know what? Yea, you got it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

it was a j-

You know what? Yea, you got it.

Damn I nearly had you there.

 

[xDD-Master]

Yay we're talking about peach and sonic again

<3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Air releasing Mk to Dacus is easy with Sheik.
Just half buffer it, and charged it for a moment.

Dash -> C-Stick Down -> C-Stick Up -> A -> done.

So easy.

Timing to DACUS is hard ;_;

 

[philbobjoe]

Yay we're talking about peach and sonic again

I'm excited. I like seeing the long posts about Peach.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My current opinion on the tier list:



Justification (keep in mind this is all imo, I don't mean to be stating this **** like it's irrefutable or unanimously agreed on):
-Ice Climbers are not a step above Diddy/Olimar/Snake. Just... no.

-Snake is underrated at the moment - his Olimar mu is nowhere near as bad as people claim (look at Japan if you want to see why), and people seem to be pessimistic about his mk match-up recently as well, which seems more like people ******** about how Snake gets punished hard in the mu and ignoring his results (which always have and still do indicate that he does very well in the mk mu).

-I'm not entirely sold on Lucario being a tier above Wolf (mostly because of his worse mk match-up), but not having significant trouble vs. wario, dedede and pika is pretty nice

-Toon Link's mk match-up sucks. That's about all there is to it lol. I'd put him as equal to G&W probably, I can't ever decide who's better. Fox is super nice just because he does amazing vs. mk and absolutely fine vs. EVERYONE else excluding a horrific ICs mu and a pretty terrible pikachu match-up.

-G&W is underrated vs. Diddy and ICs, they are both -1 as long as you platform camp intelligently. ICs actually have no way of approaching G&W on a platform (if he shields uair, he can up-b and launch ICs into the air with the wind-box, regardless of how well-spaced the uair is - it's a pretty big deal).

-Dedede is so overrated, waaayyy too many bad match-ups to be as high as he is (especially since two of them are mk and ICs)

-Kirby is overrated, same reason as D3 but all of his mus look better than they are because kirby is good at making games go to last stock (but then he can't KO cause bair is stale - this isn't even hyperbole, bair is kirby's only option in soooo many situations and he can't KO without it. His best mus are ones where he can refresh bair, or he doesn't need it to KO, otherwise he has to die to refresh it lol). I may have placed him too low in retrospect, but eh, the order of the characters in this tier could really be jumbled in any way

-Lucas might be better than Ness, I dunno

-Jigglypuff is underrated as ****. She does decently against ICs, Olimar, Diddy, Falco and most of the upper mid tiers, loses harder to a few characters (marth and snake, most notably), and gets destroyed by mk - that's a better mu spread than mario's multiple unwinnable match-ups lol. You can argue her match-ups if you want but ask yourself how well you really understand this character, and how much weight your opinion carries - I'm not saying my opinion carries any weight mind you, I've never achieved anything, I'm just saying that your word is as good as mine.

-Zelda/Ganon is a toss up but I think Ganon is better just because of how hard he punishes mistakes. It's easy to say "oh I can just do this and not lose to ganon" but then you slip up once and get hit by side-b > dair > uair and you've suddenly gone from 10%~ to KO%. Zelda is similarly exploitable, but she doesn't have that factor.

 

[Rizen]

^As a Zelda and Ganon player I will say Zelda has tools and Ganon doesn't. Sure when Ganon gets going he murders but it's incredibly difficult to do anything with his big hurtbox, lack of options and terrible attack speed. Slip up once at 50-100%ish vs Zelda and she frame 5 Dtilt locks for a considerable amount of damage. Ganon's fastest ground attacks are grab at frame 7 and jab frame 8

___________________________
Why do we have 2 threads that end up being the exact same thing?
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/page-25
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-74#post-15777018
Lots of raging, spamming and trolling in these. IMO they should be shut down

 

[Aidebit]

Sometimes these threads do bring up healthy discussions that are very informative, if only it could be like that more.
Also, @Tuesday, why is PT so low, maybe under Luigi, but at least PT has no unwinnable MU's (Marth, while hell for Squirtle, is doable for Ivy and Charizard.) like you claim Mario has.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I disagree with Zelda having tools, I've dabbled with her in low tier tournaments and she seems pretty useless...

Fsmash is ineffectual if you know how to SDI, her mobility is trash, her kicks hit in such specific situations that they shouldn't be a problem as long as you keep them in mind and she lacks a grab (very big deal). She has a few sorta nice moves, but not enough to constitute a toolkit imo

Aidebit: I'd say ICs and mk are pretty terrible mus for PT, and the rest of top tier isn't too flash. He's absolutely fine if the opponent doesn't go in with the strategy of "play as safely as possible vs. squirtle until he can't KO, abuse the hell out of Ivysaur/Charizard being terrible if they ever show up" - which a lot of people don't, but that strat unfortunately kills the character imo :/ Squirtle would be so good on his own, it's unfortunate

I do think I could have placed PT higher though, now that I think about it. Fatigued squirtle isn't terrible, which makes Smashville a pretty good stage for pt (due to that moving platform pokemon change glitch).

 

[Rizen]

I disagree with Zelda having tools, I've dabbled with her in low tier tournaments and she seems pretty useless...

her mobility is trash, her kicks hit in such specific situations that they shouldn't be a problem as long as you keep them in mind and she lacks a grab (very big deal). She has a few sorta nice moves, but not enough to constitute a toolkit imo

^Everything you said -Fsmash being SDI-able is worse for Ganon, lol. Ganon does do better vs Jigglypuff though imo.

Play Ed or Mocha (or other good Zeldas) if you think Zelda lacks tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfANQcMiFE

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, that's why I think Ganon is better haha. Their tools are comparatively terrible, but Ganon punishes harder if the opponent messes up

I'll check out that match, but I could just as easily link to a video of DLA, you know? When you're that low on the tier list and only one position difference, it's kinda hard to say who is definitively the better character

 

[Aidebit]

Aidebit: I'd say ICs and mk are pretty terrible mus for PT, and the rest of top tier isn't too flash. He's absolutely fine if the opponent doesn't go in with the strategy of "play as safely as possible vs. squirtle until he can't KO, abuse the hell out of Ivysaur/Charizard being terrible if they ever show up" - which a lot of people don't, but that strat unfortunately kills the character imo :/ Squirtle would be so good on his own, it's unfortunate

I do think I could have placed PT higher though, now that I think about it. Fatigued squirtle isn't terrible, which makes Smashville a pretty good stage for pt (due to that moving platform pokemon change glitch).

IC's is terrible because you're forced to camp, effectively digging your own grave, because Squirtle has no projectiles, so I agree with you there. MK isn't as bad as you make it out, it's almost as bad as Marth, but it's doable with Squirtle.
Ivysaur and Charizard aren't terrible, but if they were solo, I'd put them below Luigi, they do have weaknesses, but they aren't that easily abused. Ivysaur shouldn't really be getting off the stage playing it safe, unless MK of course, and Charizard has great kill power and pretty decent recovery. And I agree with you on the last part, solo stamina-less Squirtle would be boss.

 

[Rizen]

As Ganon I have a lot of trouble getting in. Zelda has better tools like Nair canceling, Dtilt>followup etc and her range is more disjointed (on ground attacks) which is a big asset. Zelda is a much easier character to successfully use. Ganon can be scary but only when he's seriously outplaying and getting good reads.


I want to hear more about Peach.

Edit, stamina, or lack of, sucks for PT. Characters can abuse planking and running vs them. What a stupid game mechanic.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

IC's is terrible because you're forced to camp, effectively digging your own grave, because Squirtle has no projectiles, so I agree with you there. MK isn't as bad as you make it out, it's almost as bad as Marth, but it's doable with Squirtle.
Ivysaur and Charizard aren't terrible, but if they were solo, I'd put them below Luigi, they do have weaknesses, but they aren't that easily abused. Ivysaur shouldn't really be getting off the stage playing it safe, unless MK of course, and Charizard has great kill power and pretty decent recovery. And I agree with you on the last part, solo stamina-less Squirtle would be boss.

I'd put Ivysaur and Charizard vs. mk as close to unwinnable, Squirtle can do it but mk can just camp so hard.
Like, I can see PT doing sorta well against mk in terms of percentage and stocks, but I feel like mk dictates the flow of the match REALLY hard and can always force a time out with himself in the lead (at least, with an 8-minute timer - it'd be harder if we extended the timer and PT had more time to make safe plays without feeling pressured to approach).

I put Ivysaur around Ganon and Zelda level, man... He's really awful :/ Like, I'm pretty sure (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that a single sopo CG > dtilt is actually a KO on Ivysaur, or at least sets up a very simple KO situation - that's obviously just a single example, but man that's BAD lol. He does pathetic damage, has no reliable KO moves, gets juggled and edge-guarded with ease, yeah...

As Ganon I have a lot of trouble getting in. Zelda has better tools like Nair canceling, Dtilt>followup etc and her range is more disjointed (on ground attacks) which is a big asset. Zelda is a much easier character to successfully use. Ganon can be scary but only when he's seriously outplaying and getting good reads.

Yeah, they reward pretty different playstyles/mentalities I think, so it's hard to compare them. Zelda often feels like she has more options, but then I play Ganon and get inside the opponent's head and just kinda feel the pace of the game and he is so brutal haha

I want to hear more about Peach.

me too, I disagree with a lot of Dark.Pch's claims, but it's soooo much better to hear extreme opinions than the tame ones that you usually find in this thread and the mu chart one