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Official SWF Tier List v8

Dekillsage

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There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
Marth is High tier for sure, but he's not better than snake or falco. I don't even think he's better than Zss, but he's still above those three because 2 people placed well at one national?

Personally I'd swap Marth and Falco's spots and be okay with it.
 

Sinister Slush

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Statement still stands, the only time Ive ever had an issue is when the persons trying to argue have little to add to the discussion except those sorts of statements and regurgitated and mindless catchphrases, which really only happens in this thread. Typically a small group of thoughtless contrarians who tend to post an abnormally large amount here. If thats what you like feel free to associate yourself with them.
Putting big words in your posts doesn't make you any smarter or make your statement any less true (though I do admit there're quite a few people that post in here that don't even attend tournaments or even play the game for that matter).
Also I can assure you I'm not one of those thoughtless people that post a lot in here. Especially since I only post here once or twice every few weeks.
 
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I've probably been to more tournaments than Shaya, lol

I'm only a forum jocky now because I live so far away from a real scene atm, but I used go to to tournaments all the time. Pls hate less.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I'd have Snake>Falco>Marth. ICs make it difficult for me to gauge where Falco should go.

Word, I think Falco is a pretty broken character but ICs kind of make it impossible to find a good place for him on the tier list. Pikachu's not even that bad a matchup for Falco though so I'd still say he's better than Diddy and Olimar.

:059:
 

Cassio

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I only think pika is difficult for falco only if you take the footstool Jab/QA lock into account because both characters can struggle killing each other otherwise. At the same time I dont think snake does too much better even if you do.
 

Luigi player

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Word, I think Falco is a pretty broken character but ICs kind of make it impossible to find a good place for him on the tier list. Pikachu's not even that bad a matchup for Falco though so I'd still say he's better than Diddy and Olimar.

:059:
whaaat

so you think

MK
ICs
Falco
?
 

Luigi player

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To be honest the characters in spots 2-6 are basically just as good as each other overall. Marth is not one of those characters
He's definitely one of these characters.

Pretty much everyone has kinda big weaknesses besides MK. Except Marth. He also does well (well = even/nearly even) vs Snake, Diddy, Pikachu, Olimar, Falco, ZSS... he also does good vs Wario. MK and ICs are probably -1, but they aren't too bad either. Like he doesn't win many MUs up there, but he doesn't lose either. The others do though, which is kinda hurting them. In the end being able to not lose is more important then ****** everyone but lose to some kinda badly.

I'd still say it's like this:

S MK
A ICs, Diddy, Olimar, Marth
B Falco, Snake
C Pika, ZSS, Wario

(the letters aren't supposed to show the tiers from the tierlist where they should be, it's just to show that there are some gaps between them)
 

Luigi player

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Majority of your mus being even or close to even is the same as Snake, yet you put him so low. Marth is overrated.

Marth isn't in the same tier as olimar or Ics. Diddy isn't in that tier either.
It seems that Pikachu is holding Snake back a little bit.
 

Ghostbone

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Top/high tier is more like
S tier- :metaknight:
A tier- :popo: , :snake: , :diddy:
B tier- :olimar: , :falco:
C tier- :pikachu2: /:zerosuitsamus: /:marth: /:warioc: (they're all like the same so I'm not ordering them)

imo

Snake and Diddy are 3rd and 4th because they have probably the best matchups with Ice Climbers while still being top 5 matchups with MK.
 

Tesh

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Why not? Thats a huge part of the metagame.

Besides his point was just that their viability vs ICs makes them a notch above Olimar and Falco because they are concrete solo viable.
 

CyberZixx

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I don`t play Brawl and have only seen it a bit so my opinion is not well informed. With that disclaimer I totally agree with that tier list. Those top 5 characters to me seem the best at abusing the brawl design to their favor. They have great safe, options to force the opponent to come to them. When I think brawl gameplay I think ``Mk, IC, Olimar, Snake and Diddy``. As said above they are best with dealing with each others shenanigans.
 

FredFuchs

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but just those two characters? there are more viable characters than mk and ics. i just can't imagine snake being 3rd let alone above olimar
 

FredFuchs

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sorry about the double post, the edit isn't working. shouldn't marth also be in "a" tier because of his mus with mk and ics and not "c" tier? (unless he isn't in the "top 5 mk mus", whatever they are)
 

Osennecho

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While I think Snake is amazing I don't think I could put him at 3rd, but with the current meta I can't really entirely disagree. I'd still put Diddy above Snake though. Furthermore by that logic ZSS should be in B tier because of her matchup with ICs. Since Marth blatantly loses to ICs and MK (both are more like -1.5 IMO) his position on that list makes plenty of sense too.
 

Djent

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As much as I'd like to not put Snake 3rd, I can't really think of another character who can hold that position. Gheb said it really well somewhere: "if only by process of elimination."
 

1PokeMastr

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Please stop with the halfway point system, we don't need extra numbers or decimals for Mus.
 

Ghostbone

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.Dont understand people down playing marth.no one in any great detail explains his flaws over others.

He's just not...that good?
Pit doesn't have many flaws, he's just not that good.
Marth's like that, he doesn't have the strengths other characters have (he has range, but range alone doesn't put you on the level of an infinite against the entire cast, or bananas, or lasers + chaingrab, etc.)
His specific weaknesses? He has a really hard time dealing with cross-ups, and he has no fast moves besides up-b (whereas other characters have their jab). He has a blind spot below him in the air and a bad air-dodge making him quite susceptible to juggles, his fair often gets really staled, and his throws do no damage.
His recovery is linear and he suffers from RCO lag (which like no other top tiers besides Falco suffer from). He kills later than most characters (without tippers)
His matchup with MK is one of the worst compared to those with similar tier positions, his matchup against ICs is lackluster.

Marth's always rated very highly and people say he has a great matchup spread, but it's never really demonstrated (to the level of other top tiers at least, Marth's still a good character).
 

Shaya

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Hey ghostbone, would you like to write your own educated thoughts on Marth (seeing as you sound like the uber expert) or would you prefer to just parrot stuff you've read in this thread?
Like, I didn't know SFP had a 3.6k post alt account.

RCO lag is definitely his most protruding weakness. It means he dies if he has to grab the ledge with dolphin slash above 100% against the good characters in this game.

Best walk speed in the game. Jumps that people would die for (ZSS). A fast fall speed every other long ranged character would kill for.
Being crossed up is indeed a weakness of really any player's reaction speed. There aren't that many high mobility characters who can consistently pose that problem against Marth. Rolling into Marth is not some free win ticket, it's just a very good mid+ level tactic due to dancing blade suckage.
I don't know about any GOOD character that doesn't have a blind spot below them. His airdodge sucks. Air dodging sucks (with nearly everyone).
Fair getting staled is a good thing. Jesus christ when SFP stated this I cringed.
His throws are a significant factor in a significant majority of match ups. Low base damage doesn't change how stupendously awful most characters options have after being f/up thrown by Marth. Throw in grab releases and voila. A likely more consistently stronger grab game than at least 30 characters.
Killing is hard for a lot of characters. Especially as they don't happen to have moves with frame advantage on shield that kill (nair). He's weaker at killing than the top tiers on average, but not significantly so.
Where do you even base his MK mu from? Your personal experience? :\

It's fine to think whatever you want about Marth in terms of position or viability. But some of these justifications people have are just bogus.
 

smashkng

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He's just not...that good?
Pit doesn't have many flaws, he's just not that good.
Marth's like that, he doesn't have the strengths other characters have (he has range, but range alone doesn't put you on the level of an infinite against the entire cast, or bananas, or lasers + chaingrab, etc.)
His specific weaknesses? He has a really hard time dealing with cross-ups, and he has no fast moves besides up-b (whereas other characters have their jab). He has a blind spot below him in the air and a bad air-dodge making him quite susceptible to juggles, his fair often gets really staled, and his throws do no damage.
His recovery is linear and he suffers from RCO lag (which like no other top tiers besides Falco suffer from). He kills later than most characters (without tippers)
His matchup with MK is one of the worst compared to those with similar tier positions, his matchup against ICs is lackluster.

Marth's always rated very highly and people say he has a great matchup spread, but it's never really demonstrated (to the level of other top tiers at least, Marth's still a good character).
If you want top tier strengths Marth has, then I can give you some. His large and almost lagless aerials gives him an insanely good pressure game (he can limit options extremely well, he is like MK in that way) and an extremely effective zoning game. With the pressure he can put he can string very well and keep you in a disadvantageous position (like on corners and in the air) for a very long time where he can rack up damage very fast. He has arguably the best ledge trapping and definitely is top 3 or top 4 when it comes to juggling. He can punish almost anything you commit with, including OoS (yes, even MK can't safely hit Marth's shield most of the time).

His recovery is average. But it doesn't suck. Only a few characters have tools to reliably gimp Marth (like MK, DDD and ROB). Other characters will rarely gimp him if the Marth knows how to recover. RCO lag sucks sure. It sometimes can hurt Marth, but only when on the ledge when above 100%. Marth has some problems on the ledge on those %s, because he loses his amazing ledge jump invincible aerials and options like a great ledge climb (his above 100% ledge climb sucks a lot compared to his below 100% version, same with his ledge jump).

Marth doesn't lack at close range. Marth's jab and DB are both 4 frames and if it counts as a close range option, shield (because of his really good OoS options). I've never had problems at close range. Marth happens to have good options for getting out of close range as well.
The cross-up thing isn't something I'd call a weakness. Marth can deal with it really well with the help of something called reaction. With great spacing he can even retreat so much so that the opponent be unable to roll behind him (even if the opponent can roll behind him, most of the time you can still react and punish with DB or Up b unless it's like MK's forward roll). Most of his moves not hitting both sides is only a weakness in doubles, not singles. It's true about being susceptible to juggling, having bad options (his Dair is pretty bad at protecting from above) to protect himself when the opponent is directly above does suck but he's not terrible at dealing with juggling. Most of the time if he gets hit in the air he'll always get back to the ground after taking 1 or 2 hits. His air dodge isn't terrible despite being the 2nd worst frame data wise. Marth's air mobility and good fast fall makes his air dodge usage surprisingly far from the 2nd worst in the game. It's true that Marth kills later than most characters without tippers, that's why Marths have godlike spacing to almost completely remove that weakness. With really good spacing you can tipper with every aerial 65% of the time.

Sure his throws themselves do little very damage, sure, but they don't suck because they put the opponent in a such disadvanategeous position that he can follow-up with it most of the time. And at around 0% he gets true combos out of Fthrow like tipper Fsmash and aerials.

Fair getting stale a weakness? Don't make me laugh. Fair can kill, but he has other reliable kill moves so he doesn't need it to KO. And staling it only makes it a stronger combo machine. Also, if Marth needs to refresh something, then DB is GODLIKE at it because it counts as 4 hits when staling DB. Marth has actually arguably one the least problems in the game when it comes to staling.

And finally, Marth doesn't lose to ICs. It's an even MU. Marth loses to MK, but it's not a bad MU. Mikeneko at worst goes even with every top MK in Japan. Personally I think the MU is relatively close to even, but it's still a -1 (only harder than like Diddy's, Fox's and Falco's).
 

-LzR-

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Yes, Marth is good. We get that. He isn't bull**** like toptier characters. He has great range and so on. But that's about it. Then he starts to suffer because he can't do **** at close range. He sucks when above the opponent.

One of the easier characters in the game to juggle. And his recovery is incredibly lame, not to mention the horrible RCO lag even if he successfully recovers. And while his throws do set up for things, so do other good characters throws and their throws alone do the same damage as Marths throw -> followup, IF he gets a followup.

And as mentioned previously he can't safely kill unlike other toptiers. Where Diddy can just banana -> stuff, MK just anything into anything and Snake just tilts you to death, Marth has to commit a lot in order to land that tipper Fsmash or edgeguard tipper bair.

And no Marth cannot really deal with crossups. A crossup does not mean rolling behind your opponent you know? What exactly can he do against crossups? He has to give up space to cover a potential crossup which eventually leads him into the edge. Oh yes he is terrible at the ledge too.

Oh yeah, writing pointless meaningless arguments against Marth is so much fun.
 
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