Old-School Opponents ~ Game and Watches Match Up Thread

[SeanS]

T

I have played Bowser players who have a skill level comparable to mine, and it is fairly simple to play defensively against them to beat them, but these are Bowser players blindly charging in and Bowsers end lag is so ridiculous you deserve to lose if you can't get a read on what's coming. While Bowser's DownB can't be UpAired, Bowser's DownAir can.

This is a very bad response to these moves because of the mixup you discuss. uair is not a regular vortex move anyway, you need to respond to your enemy when they are closer to the ground except on a hard read.[/quote]

 

[Disgaea D2]

This may be early but what is match up against Yoshi.

 

[SeanS]

This may be early but what is match up against Yoshi.

Personally, still working on it:


- Up B aimed at the ledge grab region does just enough splash damage to prevent dash attack and fair disjoint cancel from covering it, making G&W lose two major edgeguarding options. I need to practice some alternatives on him - I haven't experimented with dair at all because it's *normally* a terrible idea, but given the committal nature of Yoshi's double jump, it may not be a terrible idea to simply push him back. Low Up B is something I've done but you need to really get a hard read for it, and a followup hit is sometimes required to seal the kill.


- If you do not true combo him from dthrow, he will jump immediately to escape with super armor. This basically prevents him from getting vortexed at low percents.

- His Neutral B is absolutely ridiculous. This is one of the best moves in the game and you have to fight it reactively with a dodge or super quick dash > Up B because it outprioritizes so much.




On the other hand, G&W has a specific combination of speed and power (dash attack everything lmao, not even joking) that leads to hard hits on this character in particular, particularly with usmash (not on dair though haha, you just wait for that to end and dash attack it. What was I saying before?)


Not really giving a score at this time, I need to get better at it and I know there are tons of undeveloped parts to the MU that I simply haven't tried. Rest assured though, it's one of the better high tier matchups.

 

[Disgaea D2]

Personally, still working on it:


- Up B aimed at the ledge grab region does just enough splash damage to prevent dash attack and fair disjoint cancel from covering it, making G&W lose two major edgeguarding options. I need to practice some alternatives on him - I haven't experimented with dair at all because it's *normally* a terrible idea, but given the committal nature of Yoshi's double jump, it may not be a terrible idea to simply push him back. Low Up B is something I've done but you need to really get a hard read for it, and a followup hit is sometimes required to seal the kill.


- If you do not true combo him from dthrow, he will jump immediately to escape with super armor. This basically prevents him from getting vortexed at low percents.

- His Neutral B is absolutely ridiculous. This is one of the best moves in the game and you have to fight it reactively with a dodge or super quick dash > Up B because it outprioritizes so much.




On the other hand, G&W has a specific combination of speed and power (dash attack everything lmao, not even joking) that leads to hard hits on this character in particular, particularly with usmash (not on dair though haha, you just wait for that to end and dash attack it. What was I saying before?)


Not really giving a score at this time, I need to get better at it and I know there are tons of undeveloped parts to the MU that I simply haven't tried. Rest assured though, it's one of the better high tier matchups.

Thanks. When I approach with Fair or Bair I get F smashed and when I dash attack or dash grab, Yoshi's dash attack will out prioritize my approach methods.

 

[GMan1255]

Well, in this matchup of Game & Shaq and YoShaq is interesting because of the difficulty to slam dunk YoShaq because of his Super Dribble jump... I am so sorry but I had to do this, I don't care if you think I am 5 years old xp
Seriously though, I have never seen a competent Yoshi player in my life. I have a friend who plays him a lot, but he is casual, not competitive.

 

[Nose]

if we're still allowed to talk about the peach mu,
I have a few brief points

fair is the most obnoxious thing here, since it's outrageously strong against poor gnw and his weight
luckily his up-b is excellent for dealing with a lot of peach's movement
it's very hard to punish, screws up her placement and depending on the DI can lead into more damage

watch out for dash, that'll kill for sure, she has a lot of options for finishing gnw out with the disjoint on dash being able to catch you often
basically the key to winning against peach is staying alive more than anything else once you take off one of her stocks,
I'd space full jump fair to discourage float and keep her uncomfortable, and use a bacon here and there to set up for a grab/dash

 

[Woohoo982]

Game and Watch vs Peach is still allowed?
Peach can try to bait g+w with her parasol,but dair is the only thing that scares me. Toad can be baited out with Chef(Short Order woks wonders for this,and while veggies cant be absorbed,you can jump over,and get peach into the air with usmash or dtilt.
Then go for the uair because that kill power is hype on the uair.
55:45 game and watch,65:35 with customs

 

[Nose]

GnW vs Bowser is ridiculous.

I need to see if I'm missing anything crucial, because Bowser absolutely dominates the ground game, even with such a great projectile like chef.

You cannot powershield your way in, his tilts aren't laggy enough for you to get anything off of it,
your aerial approach is moot because of how slow and laggy/predictable fair and dair are,
and you get punished for whiffing a dash grab or attack with upB OoS--
in essence, Bowser really doesn't have to move in the neutral.

Basically, I found that the payoff was so unworthy that I went total defensive, only going for extremely favourable situations, just to try it out.

Even when flinging chef, and getting some good down throw combos, Bowser still dominates the neutral. You just can't get it on a good Bowser-- they can outcamp you all day just by sitting there, throwing out tilts and perfect shielding your approaches.

I'd be absolutely willing to call this dreadful mu 50/50 if I could see some solid edgeguarding, but even though it's definitely in our favour while he's offstage it's not reliable or overwhelming enough to make up for the neutral-- he's heavy enough that our gimping tools just send him upwards at very high percents before they kill him.


Our pros are:
- Bowser is super easy to dthrow combo and eats up damage like a piggy in the pen off of one grab
- Bowser is easier to get stray hits on/pressure more effectively due to his large frame, although almost entirely in the air, which helps with edgeguarding

Our cons are:
- Bowser outranges us on the ground in every aspect with powerful, relatively low-lag moves
- Bowser can kill us very early off of hard reads, and relatively early with a well-placed sideB
- Boswer can upB out of shield and make us want to jump off cliffs

There's just no way to reliably approach Bowser unless he messes up consistently in the neutral. Defensive Bowsers are the bane of my existence and I would love to talk about this wonderfully horrible character match up with you guys.

 

[BBC7]

Just a 50/50? Why are we so scared to throw around skewed match-up ratios even if we know the match-up is awful? Wouldn't surprise me if it were a 20-80 matchup to be quite frank, we basically have no answers for Bowser on the ground. We can't reliably kill him before rage percent which is when he becomes even more difficult to approach due to killing tilts as well. The only way to get any mileage is to have Bowser play the off-stage game, although the steps of getting there are much more difficult than with any other character. If you're giving a 50/50 only because you're worried that Bowser is bad, don't. Bad character =/= good matchup. Peach vs Link in Melee sucks for Peach, yet which one's higher up on the list?

 

[Nose]

I want to say 50/50 because even with our horrendous approach game with on a good Bowser, you can still manage to keep it even. It's an uphill battle, but you can definitely get rid of at least one stock and then hopefully judge/edgeguard your way to victory.

Plus, I do think that there's a better way to edgeguard a lot of these characters-- GnW has a lot of unexplored potential with ****ing up recoveries with his windboxes, and it's just a matter of WHICH tool to use for each situation.

We can blow Bowser up and punish him when he lands or bacon him into a dair/fair, or upB him consistently into the blastzone.

Once we figure out GnW's edgeguarding game fully, I think our match-ups will be a lot more fair. Right now, I find it hard to see Bowser at 50/50 without some good edgeguarding, but I really believe that it's there.

 

[SeanS]

45-55. It is a bad MU, just a manageably bad one. This basically comes down to his jab and Side B, but despite what less experienced players will say, it is far more about the jab than the Side B.

 

[Nose]

The sideB wouldn't be a problem if we could finish him off early-- the sideB is just another good option for him to close out our stocks.

With his jab, dtilt, and ftilt, Bowser shuts down all reliable approach. I was thinking about overtly aggressive powershielding-- maybe powershielding both hits of the dtilt ---> grab, since that guy has a lot of lag, and then mixup when powershielding the ftilt between rolling behind and fairing/dtilting.

Also, I don't think this is the case, but does GnW have any move that can facilitate a jab-lock? If so, that could tremendously help with getting some kills.

This is another thing to note-- at certain high percents, a dair that meteor-smashes grounded opponents pops them up with just enough hitstun to net a stock-winning uair. Each character, along with a dthrow to uair combo, also has a dair to uair combo, and it's usually a lil bit earlier. Obviously it's a lot harder to get, but it's something to keep in mind if you ever get a stray dair around the dthrow-uair combo percents.

 

[BBC7]

Also, I don't think this is the case, but does GnW have any move that can facilitate a jab-lock? If so, that could tremendously help with getting some kills.

Sourspot Fair, 2(Standard Judge), 1(Extreme Judge). At least I think so.

 

[Nose]

If sourspot fair is true, then I've been wondering--

at some mid-percents, we can still footstool out of dthrow pretty reliably.
Right after footstooling, you can bucket brake your vertical momentum and land pretty quickly. If we can sourspot fair into a jab reset, then we can get some sweetspotted fsmash kills at high rage.

 

[BBC7]

If sourspot fair is true, then I've been wondering--

at some mid-percents, we can still footstool out of dthrow pretty reliably.
Right after footstooling, you can bucket brake your vertical momentum and land pretty quickly. If we can sourspot fair into a jab reset, then we can get some sweetspotted fsmash kills at high rage.

Sourspot Fair is actually the only one I'm certain works.

 

[Nose]

then it's TIME TO GO TO THE LAB

i'll tell you guys what works best in that scenario

 

[Woohoo982]

Ill be optimistic here and say 50-50,or 55-45 with customs.(but I can see 45-55 if Fire Breath can't be oil panicked)
If Fire Breath can fill up Oil Panic,we've got a near-OHKO projectile,and while Bowser is good on the ground,he isn't so hot in the air.He's relatively heavy though,but you can read his up special and down special because he'll either start spinning in his shell or pause in the air and crash to the ground.
However,It's tough getting bowser into the air for G&W's(ridiculously buffed)uair because he's so dang heavy.
It could go either way when it comes down to it.

 

[Macchiato]

@Xiivi could you switch ownership to @ SFA Smiley

 

[Nose]

okay, went to the lab

turns out sourspot fair DOES work as a jab reset, but for some reason successive sourspot fairs do not-- it might just be my timing, but i dunno. i'll check it out further.
also, it's pretty darn hard to actually get to where they are on the ground with GnW's fastfall speed-- i'll check it out again. this could be a more character specific technique.

problem is, fast-fallers are much easier to footstool out of dthrow but also fall faster and can react to their footstool earlier.
floaties are harder to footstool out of dthrow but you have ample time to reach them by the time they're on the ground.
also, for some reason, my opponent was able to roll out of my footstool jab reset with the sourspot fair-- do you HAVE to hit three consecutive weak hits in this state to force a standard punishable get-up?

 

[Ffamran]

Mmm... bacon... Er... Anyway, the Falco boards started their Mr. Game & Watch discussion and would- ... I'm hungry now. Where's the bacon? Link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...n-35-mr-game-watch-the-breakfast-club.402813/.

And if you want to play against Falco or learn more about the MU, check this thread out: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[mario123007]

Rosalina 2nd round MU thread available:
http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-r2-mr-game-watch.406325/#post-19419907

 

[HuntarBarbarian]

It's been a while since anyone has posted, but I do believe that fire breath can be bucketed. It should be able to fill pretty quickly because of the speed of the hits that it produces, but it shouldn't do even close to max damage because of the relatively weak hits that come from fire breath, though it still will be really strong.

 

[Nose]

it's good for edgeguarding at high %s
even though it's weak it's enough to kill near the edge

bowser probably won't be using too much fire breath in the mu though
it's just a rough match-up, we have to be playing very cautiously

 

[Woohoo982]

I say we look at the top-tier threats for the MU's. Let's start with Ness,or something.
EDIT: the Zelda boards say we go 55:45(our favour) in that MU,can someone update it?

 

[Hyper]

I know you guys aren't to the MU yet but how does GnW fair against Falcon?

Also just throwing an idea out there but you guys should go in order of worst MU's or Top Tier MU's for GnW instead of in order.

 

[Hyper]

I know you guys aren't to the MU yet but how does GnW fair against Falcon?

Anyone?

 

[Woohoo982]

I don't know, but due to the fact that Falcon has a decent air and ground game, we are paper(literally) weight and the fact that he has a more reliable kill move(Falcawn PAWNCH>9) plus his speed, i'd say 60/40 favor.
(Also, can i like be able to update the OP or something? that hasn't been updated in a long time.)

 

[RAzul]

I don't know, but due to the fact that Falcon has a decent air and ground game, we are paper(literally) weight and the fact that he has a more reliable kill move(Falcawn PAWNCH>9) plus his speed, i'd say 60/40 favor.
(Also, can i like be able to update the OP or something? that hasn't been updated in a long time.)

Anyone?

I'm sorry Woohoo982, but what in the world does the Falcon Punch have to do with anything? That's used less than G&W's hammer in a match. I'm a secondary GW main (after villager) and ironically I came to this forum to discuss/ask about the MU. I've played it many times and honestly I think it's in GW favor. I can't surely say by how much but when you factor in how easy it is to gimp Cpt. Falcon, eat his moves by abusing Upsmash and constantly juggling him with up air, I hardly believe this is in his favor by much. GW biggest faults are his neutral game and his weight -- that's it. He's a god in everything else. Yes, his moves have some end lag but it's been reduced on his Bair when landing on the ground and also he has an amazing/invincible recovery. His jab can stuff Falcon's grabs and even lead into a grab of his own after one jab. So long as the GW player isn't abusing laggy moves and getting grabbed much (though easier said and done), it's not a terrible MU imo. I actually would like to know more insight on how y'all play this MU and what your CPs are. Please, I want to learn.


Hyper, did I help a bit?

 

[Hyper]

Yeah you helped a lot, thanks.

 

[NouveauRétro]

I'm sorry Woohoo982, but what in the world does the Falcon Punch have to do with anything? That's used less than G&W's hammer in a match. I'm a secondary GW main (after villager) and ironically I came to this forum to discuss/ask about the MU. I've played it many times and honestly I think it's in GW favor. I can't surely say by how much but when you factor in how easy it is to gimp Cpt. Falcon, eat his moves by abusing Upsmash and constantly juggling him with up air, I hardly believe this is in his favor by much. GW biggest faults are his neutral game and his weight -- that's it. He's a god in everything else. Yes, his moves have some end lag but it's been reduced on his Bair when landing on the ground and also he has an amazing/invincible recovery. His jab can stuff Falcon's grabs and even lead into a grab of his own after one jab. So long as the GW player isn't abusing laggy moves and getting grabbed much (though easier said and done), it's not a terrible MU imo. I actually would like to know more insight on how y'all play this MU and what your CPs are. Please, I want to learn.


Hyper, did I help a bit?

Oh yeah, I much prefer the G&W/C. Falcon MU over the Pacman/C.Falcon MU.
Mr. G&W destroys him imo. Falcon doesn't beat G&W in the neutral, which you can't say for most of the cast. G&W outprioritizes Falcon all the time. This probably goes in my top five G&W matchups because you can afford to play REALLY aggressively, so it's a lot of fun. G&W can finally use his disjoints for spacing in this MU. Since Falcon's hitboxes are on his body, just wall him out with disjoints. Also, you can duck telegrab, and his dash attack is punishable, weakening his approach options. He's gimpable too. One of G&W's biggest advantageous MUs. I'd even call it 65:35.

Anyway, discussing Peach, eh?
Well, I've been watching Dark Peach's stream, and I even got an online viewer battle, but it got really laggy in the second stock, so it wasn't a very good sample. Dtilt can put a damper on floating approaches, and Turnips aren't that good, so this is another MU where G&W can kind of wall the opponent out and somewhat prevent free approaches. Fire is also an effective tool to escape her devastating strings. So we have some stuff on her.

On the flip side, she kills G&W sooooo early. An errent fair at the ledge will kill under 100%, and a dash attack doesn't kill much later. The threat of getting hipchecked will break G&W's fragile zoning capabilities. She has no trouble securing the kill. Edgeguarding her is difficult because of her great recovery though. Punishing her attacks on hield might also be a hassle.

All in all, I call it close to even since G&W does OK in the neutral against aerial-heavy opponents, but Peach can destroy the poor guy if given the opportunity.

45:55 in Peach's favor

 

[RAzul]

Oh yeah, I much prefer the G&W/C. Falcon MU over the Pacman/C.Falcon MU.
Mr. G&W destroys him imo. Falcon doesn't beat G&W in the neutral, which you can't say for most of the cast. G&W outprioritizes Falcon all the time. This probably goes in my top five G&W matchups because you can afford to play REALLY aggressively, so it's a lot of fun. G&W can finally use his disjoints for spacing in this MU. Since Falcon's hitboxes are on his body, just wall him out with disjoints. Also, you can duck telegrab, and his dash attack is punishable, weakening his approach options. He's gimpable too. One of G&W's biggest advantageous MUs. I'd even call it 65:35.

Anyway, discussing Peach, eh?
Well, I've been watching Dark Peach's stream, and I even got an online viewer battle, but it got really laggy in the second stock, so it wasn't a very good sample. Dtilt can put a damper on floating approaches, and Turnips aren't that good, so this is another MU where G&W can kind of wall the opponent out and somewhat prevent free approaches. Fire is also an effective tool to escape her devastating strings. So we have some stuff on her.

On the flip side, she kills G&W sooooo early. An errent fair at the ledge will kill under 100%, and a dash attack doesn't kill much later. The threat of getting hipchecked will break G&W's fragile zoning capabilities. She has no trouble securing the kill. Edgeguarding her is difficult because of her great recovery though. Punishing her attacks on hield might also be a hassle.

All in all, I call it close to even since G&W does OK in the neutral against aerial-heavy opponents, but Peach can destroy the poor guy if given the opportunity.

45:55 in Peach's favor

Ah ****! I forgot I can duck under that brainless grab! Thanks for the info bud!

 

[NouveauRétro]

Ah ****! I forgot I can duck under that brainless grab! Thanks for the info bud!

Something I forgot to mention is that Falcon is the PERFECT combo character for G&W. At low percents dthrow to uptilt to turn around grab is true, and he's one of the easiest characters to dthrow uair. If my opponent mashes a/jab to get out of grounded combos I like to troll by doing a down throw at 0 percent%, single jabbing and then ducking. If they shield or airdodge into the ground, I get a regrab to dthrow-uptilt-regrab for awesome damage, and if they panic jab that's even better because I can humiliate them by ducking the first two jabs' then perfect shield grabbing the continuation (I think Tech of the Week called it fuzzy guarding). Stringing this character is so easy it's almost not funny. Or maybe all the Falcons I fight are just bad at escaping since they don't really play defensively often.

 

[NouveauRétro]

I know you guys aren't to the MU yet but how does GnW fair against Falcon?

Fair is pretty effective against Falcon actually, if he Raptor Boosts you a falling fair's hitbox will actually break the grab, making it awesome for taking him out offstage.http://data:image/png;base64,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
Oh, how he fares?
Kappa
But not jk on the part about fair gimping Falcon though.

 

[Woohoo982]

Oh yeah, I much prefer the G&W/C. Falcon MU over the Pacman/C.Falcon MU.
Mr. G&W destroys him imo. Falcon doesn't beat G&W in the neutral, which you can't say for most of the cast. G&W outprioritizes Falcon all the time. This probably goes in my top five G&W matchups because you can afford to play REALLY aggressively, so it's a lot of fun. G&W can finally use his disjoints for spacing in this MU. Since Falcon's hitboxes are on his body, just wall him out with disjoints. Also, you can duck telegrab, and his dash attack is punishable, weakening his approach options. He's gimpable too. One of G&W's biggest advantageous MUs. I'd even call it 65:35.

Anyway, discussing Peach, eh?
Well, I've been watching Dark Peach's stream, and I even got an online viewer battle, but it got really laggy in the second stock, so it wasn't a very good sample. Dtilt can put a damper on floating approaches, and Turnips aren't that good, so this is another MU where G&W can kind of wall the opponent out and somewhat prevent free approaches. Fire is also an effective tool to escape her devastating strings. So we have some stuff on her.

On the flip side, she kills G&W sooooo early. An errent fair at the ledge will kill under 100%, and a dash attack doesn't kill much later. The threat of getting hipchecked will break G&W's fragile zoning capabilities. She has no trouble securing the kill. Edgeguarding her is difficult because of her great recovery though. Punishing her attacks on hield might also be a hassle.

All in all, I call it close to even since G&W does OK in the neutral against aerial-heavy opponents, but Peach can destroy the poor guy if given the opportunity.

45:55 in Peach's favor

Uh,the discussion should've ended a while ago,just these people are slower than a Brave Regigigas holding a Macho Brace under Slow Start when it comes to updating this thread.
Look up dude,most people think the MU is slightly in G&W's favour.
Also,here's what some other boards say about the MU vs us:
Zelda: 60:40 G&W Favor
Falco: pretty much in G&W's favour,could possibly be Falco's worst MU.

 

[WispBae]

Hey there you third dimension slippers! The Doggy boards are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click this evolution chart showing the missing link to go straight to the thread!

 

[RAzul]

Something I forgot to mention is that Falcon is the PERFECT combo character for G&W. At low percents dthrow to uptilt to turn around grab is true, and he's one of the easiest characters to dthrow uair. If my opponent mashes a/jab to get out of grounded combos I like to troll by doing a down throw at 0 percent%, single jabbing and then ducking. If they shield or airdodge into the ground, I get a regrab to dthrow-uptilt-regrab for awesome damage, and if they panic jab that's even better because I can humiliate them by ducking the first two jabs' then perfect shield grabbing the continuation (I think Tech of the Week called it fuzzy guarding). Stringing this character is so easy it's almost not funny. Or maybe all the Falcons I fight are just bad at escaping since they don't really play defensively often.

Don't undermine your knowledge. It shows. Most Falcon players are trash to begin with and that's not even my opinion, just #facts. Your info has been super helpful. Thanks again!

 

[Denzill7]

Falcons who just dash grab and bair are pretty easy to beat because you edgeguard and combo him so well. If I was to actually play not a scrubby Falcon, I'd say it's around 60-40, 55-45 in G&W's favor. Captain Falcon is fun to play against imo. You can just duck under most of their options in neutral.

 

[Folie]

idrk how dash grab and poorly spaced dash attack translates to "most of their options." You're probably better off spot-dodging, as a Falcon player will adjust to the crouching and use something like a not horribly spaced dash attack, side b, dtilt to punish it.

we had this discussion a few times before, most people think this MU is in our favour bc somewhere around 90-99% of Falcon players think they're playing melee and play wayyyyyyy over-aggressive. When Falcon is played optimally as a more patient bait-and punish character this MU is more so 40-60 for them. Falcon should be using his movement to bait out defensive options from us like we're conditioned to doing against bad Falcon's and use his amazing fast and wide coverage punishes to capitlize. With us being so floaty and light, its really not hard for a good Falcon player to make some serious damage with a few grabs.

 

[Denzill7]

The point more or less that one of his best options can be completely avoided by crouching. It doesn't mean you'll be crouching every time he approaches you, but it does mean he'll have a lot less times where he gets a grab on you.

 

[Folie]

So he should be mixing up his approaches to make us feel less safe about crouching? It's not a thing like ZSS where crouching counters a wide array of approach options, just mostly one. It's comparable to spotdodging in neutral, except timing isn't as much as an issue but you can get hit by other approach options.