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Olimar's best killer

Goodstyle

Smash Apprentice
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May 8, 2008
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The usmash. You can kill most characters in the game at rediculously low percentages with this move. Blue and purple pikmin usually kill before 100%, red pikmin kill at 110%, yellow pikmin kill at 125% with the most range and white pikmin never kill. At times like these it's good to rearange your pikmin order with olimar's down b. It's fast, suprisingly range and crazy strong with the right pikmin.

Olimar players is really gonna dominate in tournament when they're using his usmash as a prime killer. Really, this is an awesome move.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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he eh, i just refuted it being a good move in another thread...uptilt v nair thread.
 

WhoseReality?

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I think DanGR's point about its questionable reliability is good. It takes some work to pull off an Usmash kill. It does kill though, if you can catch your opponent off guard. But because of the problems of spacing and setting up the move, I would rank a blue pikmin back throw as Olimar's best killer. I love it when Olimar grabs someone off the ledge with big blue and blows them across the entire stage and off the screen. People's jaws drop.

The main point is Olimar has several great killers that can come through in different situations.
 

DanGR

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But because of the problems of spacing and setting up the move, I would rank a blue pikmin back throw as Olimar's best killer. I love it when Olimar grabs someone off the ledge with big blue and blows them across the entire stage and off the screen. People's jaws drop.

The main point is Olimar has several great killers that can come through in different situations.
I totally agree. A[/an overpowered (if you will)] grab with olimar is a much more efficient and safer option than a risky upsmash.
 

brawlerbrad91

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what are some good killing grabs, so far I've found purple pikmin upthrow, and blue pikmin backthrow, are there any more, I just decided to use Olimar, so I don't know much
 

Olimarman

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what are some good killing grabs, so far I've found purple pikmin upthrow, and blue pikmin backthrow, are there any more, I just decided to use Olimar, so I don't know much
Thats about it, a blue foward throw can also do it for you if your facing the edge of the map. Usmashes are really hard to pull off but yes they pack a punch. Fairs with red pikmin are also pretty good for aerial combat.
 

TrueRedemption

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Mar 26, 2007
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Honestly to get a killing throw odds are your going to need to get more damage and a situational grab that is every bit as difficult and typically less efficient than a USmash. The best throws as listed are a Blue BThrow and a Purple UThrow. Blue FThrow isn't bad, but must be at considerably higher %s than any of the other options to actually KO via the KO side wall, and due to the incredible recoveries of many characters in Brawl, that makes the Blue FThrow matchup and positionally specific, notably worse than the other 3 options.

For the Blue BThrow you need to be near the edge, and in the weaker position. To put yourself in this position and hope to get this grab is placing yourself in harm's way. Should you get hit your probably in a position where you'll have to recover back to the stage, a disadvantage that can lead to more damage and can be terribly inefficient. Even if you aren't hit by your opponent, any failure to get the grab leaves you in poor positioning, and odds are a number of other pikmin to go through that aren't Blue in order to get your KO.

The other option, and if your lucky not far from blue if you missed your first KO grab, is Purple UThrow. It doesn't take much time to see the trouble here, purple up grabs suffer a severely decreased range. Fortunately at the percents you'd be killing at opponents don't break out of purple grabs before you can throw them, but that short range is again leaving you waiting looking for a difficult situation and should you miss, again you have to cycle, a problem USmash doesn't encounter nearly as badly as it only needs to be wary of White pikmin.

So yes, in general a grab may be easier to achieve in normal circumstances, however in the specific circumstances required for KO throws any advantage gained in range (or even simply horizontal range in purple's case) is lost by other necessary factors. However an USmash is far less situational, very reliable after a shielded aerial, and also particularly open in many situations when your opponent is trying to recover from the ledge. Of course theres also hyphen smashing and a number of more particular approaches/setups for this move, far more openings than a grab limited to either poor positioning (which because of Oli's recovery is a bigger deal than many other characters) or average range (considering olimar is a character built around range and spacing).

Of course none of the options should be considered bad, they all KO opponents, which is the whole point, but if were going to be speaking (dangerously) in general/broad terms, then it should be a comparison of flat out risk/reward and potential for use. In such a light I would have to agree with the OP that USmash is olimar's best knock out option. At first I thought this thread somewhat pointless, but seeing the disagreement perhaps this is an important topic not everyone understands completely, making it actually one of the best threads active right now.

So in conclusion: USmash is best, learn the situations that are most reliable in leading to a hit, as well as a few tricks that can catch your opponent off guard and close the deal. The throws are not bad and should always be remembered, however going for them is a very transparent strategy and most opponents of merit will see right through your idea because of all the situational requirements that you'll take effort to insure while looking for an opening. I suggest learning to work with USmash as your primary KO move because your opponent cannot help/avoid olimar getting close and landing a move nearly as well as an opponent can avoid getting grabbed in a certain direction in a certain part of the stage or by a slow short grab. I realize people are probably going to disagree with this and my simplified arguments above, please do present your side, this is the start of some actually helpful discussion =)



-True
 

pockyD

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dsmash is a good finisher too; it has set range (so purples are easier to connect with), hits both sides, has a nasty angle, and isn't used throughout the rest of the match like usmash/fsmash are (for combos/spacing), so it shouldn't be stale

i wouldn't recommend relying on aggressively getting a grab to KO, but just know the percents in case you do happen to get a grab
 

shrinkray21

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What I've discovered is that you must pick what you are going to use the upsmash for - damage or killing potential. Its one of my favorite comboing moves as well as olly's best killing move. Therefore - learn your style and see what you are better with. Make sure that every non killing upsmash should be attempted to be following with an aerial (most often upair) and/or the up b.
 

Jarri

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You with your upB all the time, Shrink :p. I prefer uSmash or dSmash to kill someone, but spiking is also epic and I try to do it whenever I have the chance. Throws can be quite nasty as well, especially the u- and bThrow.
 

DanGR

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Honestly to get a killing throw odds are your going to need to get more damage and a situational grab that is every bit as difficult and typically less efficient than a USmash. The best throws as listed are a Blue BThrow and a Purple UThrow. Blue FThrow isn't bad, but must be at considerably higher %s than any of the other options to actually KO via the KO side wall, and due to the incredible recoveries of many characters in Brawl, that makes the Blue FThrow matchup and positionally specific, notably worse than the other 3 options.
-It’s pretty hard to rebuttal the points you’ve made ( as you use words like “probably” often, I noticed) but in order to advance this subject, I’d like to. Something it didn’t seem like you considered in your argument was human error.(for a good reason too. It's a very touchy subject, I've learned...) But if we completely disregard THAT aspect of game play and talk specifically about perfect players, then this thread and any other thread is pointless, as no-one would ever hit anyone with any move and no-one would die...so on and so forth.(you get the point) But, seriously, there’s a degree of human error we have to consider when playing brawl. Olimar’s throws (any throw) rely on human error or miscalculation more than other attacks in the game. Shieldgrabbing your opponent, for instance, requires your opponent to attack you and mess-up in distancing themselves after the attack. It’s a pretty common technique used, and everybody (even the best) falls prey to it. Grabbing in general can be completely avoided for an entire match unlike jabs, and aerials. (If not, IC’s cg should and will be banned)

For the Blue BThrow you need to be near the edge, and in the weaker position. To put yourself in this position and hope to get this grab is placing yourself in harm's way. Should you get hit your probably in a position where you'll have to recover back to the stage, a disadvantage that can lead to more damage and can be terribly inefficient. Even if you aren't hit by your opponent, any failure to get the grab leaves you in poor positioning, and odds are a number of other pikmin to go through that aren't Blue in order to get your KO.
-How close is near the edge? Most people refer to “near the edge” as within grabbing distance of a person who stands up from the edge. How much farther is that from the middle of the stage? It’s not very far. Two rolls towards the middle will get you close, if not on the middle on most stages. I don’t see “being near the edge” as a heavy disadvantage unless you can’t roll backwards at least once. THIS leaves your options very limited. If you try and fight in THAT position ANY time, instead of trying to retreat towards the middle safely, yes you will be in a disadvantageous situation. If you can’t retreat to the middle, and you have to fight where you are, then you have to fight. Period. This is very important to my argument. No-one TRYS to get in this situation. It seems like you implied above that a bthrow doesn’t work mostly b/c you shouldn’t put yourself in that situation.

The other option, and if your lucky not far from blue if you missed your first KO grab, is Purple UThrow. It doesn't take much time to see the trouble here, purple up grabs suffer a severely decreased range. Fortunately at the percents you'd be killing at opponents don't break out of purple grabs before you can throw them, but that short range is again leaving you waiting looking for a difficult situation and should you miss, again you have to cycle, a problem USmash doesn't encounter nearly as badly as it only needs to be wary of White pikmin.
-Err...I didn’t understand this argument very well. You had some grammar mistakes [, I think,] (I might just be blind and need more clarification to understand better) Anyways, It seemed like you said grabs aren’t as good b/c you have to worry about the purples. They aren’t bad. They just aren’t as good as the others. Purple is still better than some entire character’s grabs. You just have to know when it’s in the front of the lineup and act accordingly. They still make effective sg-ers. They still grab close characters. It’s not horrible. Olimar players just aren’t used to the short grab. (Try playing pikachu directly following several matches using Olimar. It’s very hard to grab your opponent after changing.) As for avoiding the purple entirely, I could make the same argument about the white pikmen in an upsmash. The whites bog down the upsmash. Same goes for the purples in grabs. Purple is to grab as white is to upsmash?

So yes, in general a grab may be easier to achieve in normal circumstances, however in the specific circumstances required for KO throws any advantage gained in range (or even simply horizontal range in purple's case) is lost by other necessary factors. However an USmash is far less situational, very reliable after a shielded aerial, and also particularly open in many situations when your opponent is trying to recover from the ledge.
-I don’t consider upsmash a good option after shielding on the ground, nor do I find it easier to achieve in KO situations.(explain what the “other necessary factors” are that you mentioned) Your opponent, subconsciously, whether you want to believe it or not, is looking particularly for an attack, and not a grab. As for shielding into an upsmash, its startup lag can’t be compared to the speed of a jab. Jab>upsmash in quickness and priority. It’s fairly impossible to upsmash directly after shielding an opponent who attacks and lands next to you. They can jab away or even dodge the upsmash. Grabbing is quicker than upsmash and comes out quicker. Grabbing also outprioritizes jabs. If you want to say that the lag from the aerial is long enough to use an upsmash, your opponent should obviously not have broken one of the golden rules in brawl:"approach using moves with little landing lag and not ones with high landing lag." Ex.-G&W's fair is laggy and shouldn't be used as an approach, EVER. His Bair has considerably less lag and is a great approach. If you happen to mess up your spacing using the bair and your opponent thinks you would have landed far enough from their grab so that it wouldn't grab you, it can be followed up with his fast bug spray.(jabs)(I'm not saying bair-jabs is a good approach. It CAN be used sometimes as... metaphorically, an ejection seat in a fighter jet. (You realize you've messed up, so you try to stay alive)
Of course theres also hyphen smashing and a number of more particular approaches/setups for this move, far more openings than a grab limited to either poor positioning (which because of Oli's recovery is a bigger deal than many other characters) or average range (considering olimar is a character built around range and spacing).
-Hyphen smashing takes away your range. It’s a bad approach for olimar. (I tried explaining this in the uptilt v nair thread) The long range of Olimar’s grabs is safe though? It seemed like you argued for the wrong move here. Am I mistaking what you said? Or did you mix up your words. Just wondering.

Of course none of the options should be considered bad, they all KO opponents, which is the whole point, but if were going to be speaking (dangerously) in general/broad terms, then it should be a comparison of flat out risk/reward and potential for use. In such a light I would have to agree with the OP that USmash is olimar's best knock out option. At first I thought this thread somewhat pointless, but seeing the disagreement perhaps this is an important topic not everyone understands completely, making it actually one of the best threads active right now.
-So we agree here. :)
 

Pyronic_Star

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@dangr
thanks for responding to true haha....... i'm lazy and was going to originally.. but i got home today, and u did already lol

but i agree, i feel that grab ko's are easier to achieve than a smash ko... even based on a pure defense against both kinda... a smash has a shield,dodge, and roll to deal with... while a grab only has dodge and roll. plus, as you have stated... the grab has superior range to a up-smash... to be honest, i can't see many situations where you cannot substitute an up-smash with a grab.

i'd write more, but i'm sleepy and lazy haha
 

Dr. Hyde

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I still agree with True and also I think that its easier to just use the Up Smash. For me it's like Fox's Up smash for those that played SSBM. The move just kills I hate using it so often but when it is just sooo easy to kill with you gotta use it a lot to decrease the knockback and damage to make it KO when a grab would. (I'm saying this when I don't want the match to end fast)

the only reason for a kil grab with the blue Pikmin and this is a simple trick but you'll see it if I go to the tournament Saturday. The pivot grab is amazing with the blue the opponent doesn't even see the grab coming out, to them they are just running through pikmin, then OH ****!

That's how I KO with the blue pikmin, when I'm being pressured to retreat and they follow, a great strategy.

Up smash KO really has no need to set up. The move just come out. Granted a latch makes the opponent, this is from playing a Zelda, jump and to some sort of lagless aerial to get the little guy off but if I'm close enough they jump away and I just run in and up smash.

Forward smash is great for situations where you are actually forced to counter a projectile, like Mario's fireball with the red pikmin or Wolf's laser. They go right through the projectile and hit the target and usually kill, if not from that then hog the edge, and make them use a recovery onto the stage. Then you Up smash, honestly thats where all the strenght boils down to. Low ceilings and Star KOs baby!
 

WhoseReality?

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there are definitely a ton of great points that people are throwing around here...or Usmashing around here. The part of it that rings home for me is that I don't usually want to be standing on top of my opponent. I want to be within grab range and outside of their attack range. But this applies to Usmash too. If they are over me, Usmash is coming out and I've got my distance. Like true said, using it after shielding an aerial is a good bet. They are right there standing next to me, ready to take whatever I shoot up into them. Otherwise I'll stick to more distanced attacks.
 

The_NZA

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Dsmash for one simple reason: All of Oli's "killers" (minus perhaps blue bthrow/purp upthrow) are also his comboers. But I'm always sure that my Dsmash has minimal to 0 decay when I need it to kill.
 

Dr. Hyde

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Dsmash for one simple reason: All of Oli's "killers" (minus perhaps blue bthrow/purp upthrow) are also his comboers. But I'm always sure that my Dsmash has minimal to 0 decay when I need it to kill.
For me this isn't true. Dsmash like Forwards smash is meant to tech chase around the entire stage. They fall and you stand a little ways away and wait to see where they go.
 

shrinkray21

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spiking is beautiful - and the hitbox for olly is really really good - careful though - momentum is vicious...usually puts you below the stage with only your up b to recover...O.o
 

Blade Knight

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I find myself personaly F-airing people to death, and if that doesn't work a Spike or a down smash does it for me I use the up smash as a damage builder.
 

bdance23

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If you spam usmash, does the knockback decrease the more you hit? I know it does with the majority of other character's smashes but then again olimar is always hitting with a different pikmin. Anybody know?
 

Dr. Hyde

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If you spam usmash, does the knockback decrease the more you hit? I know it does with the majority of other character's smashes but then again olimar is always hitting with a different pikmin. Anybody know?
It does but honestly it doesn't matter that much becuase if you get the Up smash off three times, it will still kill. Even though it becomes "stale" it still rules. Honestly I'm thinking of just trying to not play like a normal Olimar now.

Basically what I mean it not care about the percents. I was always a bit cautious like if they were over 120 and I had a Blue pikmin all I thought about was getting that back throw. I don't know if it will work as great but just doing attacks that work the best in the situation should come over saving the move for a killing strike right?
 

Pyronic_Star

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the trick is to fight like normal, but know how far you are from that color so that you can look/create the opening by the time you get there. or you can make sure your one whistle away from a blue, and whistle -> grab ->back throw to kill

after testing the up-smash that i previously seldomly used, it has now become the new "gay move" for olimar to my friends. I won't say its his best kill move, because i feel that up-smash, blue grab or purple grab are all equal, however, it can normally kill at lower percentages, and your grabs normally have no diminishing return on them since i most people don't b-throw (unless they're setting a spike up) or up-throw unless its for a kill. so those 3 moves are equal in my eyes, as far as ko is concerned, setting up a grab is fairly easy, and the up-smash comes out fast and goes through quite a few atks, and as far as grabbing, theres not much to say, space and punish.

up-smash kills mk at around 95%, random tidbit.
 

BlackWaltzX

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Upsmash is a good shield against certain things like G&W run-dash...
It's a great killer and very useful as it is easy to cancel (You can dodge out of it at the right time.. and even Fsmash or Dsmash while they are returning.)
Remember, from what I have noticed, that when the 'whip' sound ends, you can move again. This means you can Usmash and Dsmash in succesion.

Try playing levels with platforms like Battlefield. You can Usmash them, if they shield and you hit them at the correct angle, you can 'sweet spot' the Dsmash for a killing blow.
Hyphen smashing is odd.. The hitbox is disjoined and olimar is not directly next to the pikmin he has thrown up. When fighting Marth/Ike, you can Hyphen smash and if they counter, Fsmash them for killing your fallen friend. Of course, it's all timing and and that.. human error thing.

Dsmash is good in other ways, but still has the best 'cooldown' effect of the whip timing Usmash and Fsmash do. The changes are.. you can run and then when you slow down and are able to use it, you can sometimes hit with BOTh pikmin used in the Dsmash. 43% damage I have seen.. It comes out fast so.. yeah.

Back throw with blue and up throw with purple are always nice. but yeah.

The major thing to know about olimar is that he has short coold down and five good killing moves. (With one being not great, but a nice surprise attack).



Just make the enemy expect an attack and attack where you believe he will go.
They dodge in the air and FF away from you Fairs? Dair him to the ground!
You know, just make them learn to go where you want them for the next match.
 

shrinkray21

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Upsmash is a good shield against certain things like G&W run-dash...
It's a great killer and very useful as it is easy to cancel (You can dodge out of it at the right time.. and even Fsmash or Dsmash while they are returning.)
Remember, from what I have noticed, that when the 'whip' sound ends, you can move again. This means you can Usmash and Dsmash in succesion.

Try playing levels with platforms like Battlefield. You can Usmash them, if they shield and you hit them at the correct angle, you can 'sweet spot' the Dsmash for a killing blow.
Hyphen smashing is odd.. The hitbox is disjoined and olimar is not directly next to the pikmin he has thrown up. When fighting Marth/Ike, you can Hyphen smash and if they counter, Fsmash them for killing your fallen friend. Of course, it's all timing and and that.. human error thing.

Dsmash is good in other ways, but still has the best 'cooldown' effect of the whip timing Usmash and Fsmash do. The changes are.. you can run and then when you slow down and are able to use it, you can sometimes hit with BOTh pikmin used in the Dsmash. 43% damage I have seen.. It comes out fast so.. yeah.

Back throw with blue and up throw with purple are always nice. but yeah.

The major thing to know about olimar is that he has short coold down and five good killing moves. (With one being not great, but a nice surprise attack).

Just make the enemy expect an attack and attack where you believe he will go.
They dodge in the air and FF away from you Fairs? Dair him to the ground!
You know, just make them learn to go where you want them for the next match.
You are correct - the upsmash has IASA frames - basically move after you do the move, there are many options...

I'm still not sure what you are talking about for a fair to dair combo - b/c in a short hop - you aren't going to auto cancel the dair and you are gonna have a TON of lag on the ground - either explain this a bit clearer or post a vid, but I'm totally confused :D
 

Pyronic_Star

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actually, when u sh dair, theres little lag lol. as long as you get the double flip off after the dair, the lag is normal.
 

BlackWaltzX

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May I note that it was in a separate paragraph than the dthrow combo?
I mean if they are high in the air and you fair them or uair them, they dodge. Next, start doing dairs.

Also, yes, Pyronic Star is correct about the less lag (Which can sometimes be followed with a smash? I may be wrong.. probably.)
 

DanGR

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Brawl itself will be followed by a smash(no pun intended :))
 

Pyronic_Star

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@BlackWaltzX
i its not small enough to be followed with a smash normally, unless the opponent is way further from u than they should be. i also would not advise following a misses fair with a dair. although the lag on the ground may be about the same as the other moves, there is a nice lag period in the air where he does the two flips... due to this, i would rather follow up with another fair or uair depending on the opponents position. the only real time i would suggest a dair is when one is attempting a spike... meaning dair shouldn't be used unless the opponent is off the stage.
 

BlackWaltzX

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@BlackWaltzX
i its not small enough to be followed with a smash normally, unless the opponent is way further from u than they should be. i also would not advise following a misses fair with a dair. although the lag on the ground may be about the same as the other moves, there is a nice lag period in the air where he does the two flips... due to this, i would rather follow up with another fair or uair depending on the opponents position. the only real time i would suggest a dair is when one is attempting a spike... meaning dair shouldn't be used unless the opponent is off the stage.
Once again, I am saying that you fair in one match (besides obvious times to do other moves). The next, they will start dodging and that's when you do a dair as they expect a fair.
 

Pyronic_Star

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i sitll wouldn't... u could just delay your fair and hit them as they come out of the air dodge, i do it to my friend all the time as i tell him to stop dodging in predictable patterns. and i can't see a situation where a fair will get dodged but a dair won't.... but if these situations arise with you often, i would suggest using a uair opposed to a dair... dair leave you open to long if you don't connect
 

shrinkray21

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I've lost all faith in brawl - skill in no longer as important as guessing where you opponent is going...lols - and waltz - i'm starting to see what you are saying - but that is an awful idea to do against an opponent that is reading you - you will miss the auto cancel but you do have a bigger hitbox and if you hit with the right pikmin, you can send them sideways...

P.S. - sh dair is an underrated approach - read it like a cf used to dair abuse :D
 

Pyronic_Star

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@shrink
idk, i tried using the sh dair... it turned out that sh fair r better, because you can't space properly with a dair. the opponent can shield grab a dair... they can't shield grab a spaced out fair.... unless they have a tether grab.
as far as the guessing goes... skilled players don't guess, they know. once a skilled player plays an opponent for a certain amount of time... they learn the reactions and patterns the player does and when they do it. they know that at a certain spot the opponent will air dodge because they have been punished with a fair repeatedly, thus the skilled player delays the fair to suit the timing. a skilled player knows that the opponent will recover this way, because they have been spiked, or a close pike has been attempted whenever the player has tried to recover in other ways. its not so much guessing as it is knowing from previous situations... or forcing the opponent to select positions. you may be amazed at how you can force your opponent into certain positions due to your moves, or how you will know that someone will be there... just pay closer attention... and treat brawl as more of a chess game... opposed to just a fighting game based off of reactions. so don't lose faith in brawl... there is more to it...

@black
maybe its just a difference of play styles? idk, but i can't see someone avoiding a fair and not a dair... unless you are above them... and you should avoid that position... unless you are attempting a spike for the kill. but who knows, post a vid... then maybe i can gauge it better? o yea... if they ff, you could ff fair to move with them.... i was offering the uair as a mix up because its less punishable in relation to the dair. i personally stick to fair, or uair (when they are above) or bair ... dair is saved for spikes off the stage
 

DanGR

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He eh...I just tried this one.> it confused my opponent. lol. Try dthrow-SH straight up-ff-grab-dthrow-fair. It's beautiful.
 

BlackWaltzX

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I generally have a tough time when fighting opponents in the first match, however, when the next match comes, I know almost all of your moves unless they switch it up too.
Like PS said, it's not guessing, as much as knowing they will continue to do this.

In melee, all falcos would short hop foward with blaster.. generally speaking for 90% of them of course.

In brawl, same rules apply to them trying to dodge at certain times, them expecting a dthrow, fair, dthrow fair.

Just trust me on this.. It's all about teaching your opponent to do the worst move for the next round. I do have skill.. This is what makes you able to play well. This is the largest factor in the game.
It's how I wasn't reading the boards till a while ago once again and I was already doing the basic olimar comboes and knowing how all five of the pikmin work, even how the up+b with white is the best (or nearly the best).

It sounds like you don't guess or know where the enemy will go Shrink and therefore go upon your instincts. Which is good, but purely skill and instincts isn't as good as throwing in forcing the enemy where you want to go.

Play people who can't get Olimar's latch off easily. Say... G&W. If you throw it on the top of his head, he can't hit the pikmin off unless he uses up smash or -maybe- uptilt. This leaves them to the option of trying to get it off with one of his slower moves (As opposed to the pump or hammer which has short cooldown.)

So he does the move and you will get a grab in when he gets it off. It works almost everytime.
I don't play 'good' people of every character.. But knowing where the enemies weakness is would be the best option.. Throwing it at their foot, tip of the head.. wherever their weakness is.
This goes the same as knowing where they will go. It's like how people say 'tech chase' with the downsmash.

On my last post I said fast falling enemies.. I meant the three space animals. If they FF, they outfall you.
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
Location
Brookings, SD
I generally have a tough time when fighting opponents in the first match, however, when the next match comes, I know almost all of your moves unless they switch it up too.
Like PS said, it's not guessing, as much as knowing they will continue to do this.

In melee, all falcos would short hop foward with blaster.. generally speaking for 90% of them of course.

In brawl, same rules apply to them trying to dodge at certain times, them expecting a dthrow, fair, dthrow fair.

Just trust me on this.. It's all about teaching your opponent to do the worst move for the next round. I do have skill.. This is what makes you able to play well. This is the largest factor in the game.
It's how I wasn't reading the boards till a while ago once again and I was already doing the basic olimar comboes and knowing how all five of the pikmin work, even how the up+b with white is the best (or nearly the best).

It sounds like you don't guess or know where the enemy will go Shrink and therefore go upon your instincts. Which is good, but purely skill and instincts isn't as good as throwing in forcing the enemy where you want to go.

Play people who can't get Olimar's latch off easily. Say... G&W. If you throw it on the top of his head, he can't hit the pikmin off unless he uses up smash or -maybe- uptilt. This leaves them to the option of trying to get it off with one of his slower moves (As opposed to the pump or hammer which has short cooldown.)

So he does the move and you will get a grab in when he gets it off. It works almost everytime.
I don't play 'good' people of every character.. But knowing where the enemies weakness is would be the best option.. Throwing it at their foot, tip of the head.. wherever their weakness is.
This goes the same as knowing where they will go. It's like how people say 'tech chase' with the downsmash.

On my last post I said fast falling enemies.. I meant the three space animals. If they FF, they outfall you.
You are starting to take this forum in a completely different direction than intended - most of the things you are saying are starting to be random points that mostly add up to "use your brain" which is fine, but has nothing to do with what this forum was intended to discuss.

@shrink
idk, i tried using the sh dair... it turned out that sh fair r better, because you can't space properly with a dair. the opponent can shield grab a dair... they can't shield grab a spaced out fair.... unless they have a tether grab.
as far as the guessing goes... skilled players don't guess, they know. once a skilled player plays an opponent for a certain amount of time... they learn the reactions and patterns the player does and when they do it. they know that at a certain spot the opponent will air dodge because they have been punished with a fair repeatedly, thus the skilled player delays the fair to suit the timing. a skilled player knows that the opponent will recover this way, because they have been spiked, or a close pike has been attempted whenever the player has tried to recover in other ways. its not so much guessing as it is knowing from previous situations... or forcing the opponent to select positions. you may be amazed at how you can force your opponent into certain positions due to your moves, or how you will know that someone will be there... just pay closer attention... and treat brawl as more of a chess game... opposed to just a fighting game based off of reactions. so don't lose faith in brawl... there is more to it...
Okay the point here is that you should use the sh dair (auto canceled of course) the same way that falcon used to use his sh dair in melee - example

__________O__X___

With O being Olly and X being enemy that is on the ground!!! - Okay what takes place here is that if olly is facing his enemy.

If the enemy pushes just a - olly gets another grab - if the enemy rolls right - olly chases with grab - and if they roll behind olly - do a sh dair!! - situations like this are all over - the dair is the best (and IMO) the only option in these situations...hope that clears this up for you.
 

BlackWaltzX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,013
I only use the dair when doing dthrow, fair, dair. This is bad practice though I believe and just old habit.. the only thing this is good for is would be following it up with a dsmash or usmash. (Rolling is down, stand up is.. up.
Also, i use it to spike and do the air dair, of course.

Also, sorry to get to er.. into it. I am listening to all of your posts and such, I'm just kind of wholly on the idea of doing what I had said before (Until a time someone comes up with a legitamitly better way of going about it.)
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
The ONLY thing I use dair for is spiking occasionally. It's not that great. The range isn't the best and its lag is horrible. I might use it to finish a combo sometimes, but never after the dthrow-fair.
 
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